I came across some info that I have not seen before regarding setting your drag, and the rod's influence on it. What's your take on what Brian is demonstrating?
Go to 11:15 for a drag setting demo.
Go to 28:15 for the rod demo.
https://youtu.be/C-NDjavz96A?is=gfU6ncbU1HEHg7fl
When I get over to Methford I will bring a rod and drag scale to show you the real difference in drag between a straight pull setting and using a rod. Like the cancer warning labels, this might only happen in California.
Quote from: Keta on June 15, 2026, 10:49:37 PMWhen I get over to Methford I will bring a rod and drag scale to show you the real difference in drag between a straight pull setting and using a rod. Like the cancer warning labels, this might only happen in California.
Lee I haven't watched the video yet.... What is your preferred method? Straight pull with the reel mounted or bent rod style?
I do straight pull. This morning I tested both with my 8.5' 60# Black Diamond Hybrid rod for Jim. 20# straight pull 23#-24# with the rod.
Quote from: Keta on June 15, 2026, 10:49:37 PMWhen I get over to Methford I will bring a rod and drag scale to show you the real difference in drag between a straight pull setting and using a rod. Like the cancer warning labels, this might only happen in California.
What exactly is not "real" about what he is demoing?
Quote from: Keta on Today at 01:02:59 AMI do straight pull. This morning I tested both with my 8.5' 60# Black Diamond Hybrid rod for Jim. 20# straight pull 23#-24# with the rod.
So then, why are his results the opposite of yours?
No idea but I can repeat my results and did it 2 times each this morning. The rod guides add a small amount of friction increasing the drag. I would be more concerned with drag increasing with a half spool and water resistance on a long run, but not that much. adjusting the drag is what the lever is for.
My take: This guy is measuring static friction. So none of this is valid during a run. I confess that I didn't watch the whole video- I saw enough stuff that made me scratch my head in the parts that I saw. That comment about trucks having lots of brakes but a reel only one or two... huh?
The rod angle won't matter during a steady run either.
First a bit on sliding friction. A pair of surfaces will have two friction numbers associated with it. The first is the static coefficient of friction (CoF). Multiply this by the force pressing the surfaces together, and you get the amount of force it takes to make the surfaces start sliding. Once the sliding starts, there is a second CoF for the same pair of surfaces. This is called the kinetic CoF, and it will be lower than the static. The better the drag materials, the less the difference is.
The scale used in the video records the maximum load, so it is collecting only the static drag number, This will not tell you the drag on the reel during the run, which is going to be lower.
Now a bit on rod angle and drag. In the video, the rod is being lifted (angle changing) while the measurement is being taken. This is introducing the effect of a class 3 lever with the scale as the load point. I think this will be a wash in the end, but if he is claiming that drag is different because of angle, he needs to hold the rod at a steady angle, and measure once the line has been moving for awhile.
But angle should not matter during a steady run. Here is a test: Hang a pulley from a rafter and string the line though it. Add a 10 lb (or whatever) weight to one end, and a scale to the other. The scale will read the same when lifting it regardless of the angle you pull from. So why would using a fishing rod for essentially the same test be any different?
One reason that I keep hearing is friction on the guides, but if you are requiring 3-4 lbs more force from guide friction, you would ne destroying the line. Try this test: Tape the wheel on the pulley so it can't turn, and stick some 400 grit sandpaper in the track. Now see what the scale reads to lift the same 10 lbs.
What I think is happening (and on this part , I am just speculating) is that static CoF is based on one kind of starting pull, but for some material pairs , a longer time pulling at a lighter load, or introducing elasticity into to the load (rod bending) will change the effective static CoF. Or maybe it affects the accuracy of the scale. But in the end, it doesn't really matter because you need to start the measure after the drag is turning and stabilized.
And why none of this super- accurate drag setting really matters:
1. Unlike the sliding friction of solids, frictional force in a fluid is also a function of surface area. How much line you have in the water and how much it is being pulled sideways, and how fast it is moving will have a tremendous difference on the amount of force the fish needs to apply to pull the same amount of drag. This is why a big game boat will follow the direction of the line from the reel and not the direction of the fish, when trying to run down a big billfish. You can have the drag set at next to nothing, and still end up with a breakoff if that boat starts pulling a "U" shape in the line.
2. The amount of line on the spool will affect the drag at the reel. If the effective spool diameter is cut in half from line being taken, the drag will be doubled due to the loss of leverage.
3. Line breaking strength will vary both from the nominal breaking strength and at usually drops occasionally at various points on the line (especially). If one 100 lb braid breaks mostly at 120 lbs but another at 112, why are you trying to get nail the exact same number for both?
4. Drag material performance will change during a longer run. Generally the CoF will decrease as the materials heat up. If you are using drag grease, it happens sooner, as the decrease in viscosity affects the CoF. (I still prefer greased drags).
In summary, if you are fighting large tuna from a drifting or anchored boat, your drag is going to vary wildly during the fight, and the load at the knort on the fishes end of the line is going to vary even more wildly when taking drag, and you don't really know how strong your line actually is. There is some value in not adding to this variability by using some super rough estimate of a drag setting, but I am not going to sweat it on whether my drag is "really" 20 or 22 lbs on 80 lb braid.
Now if I am trying to keep a grouper or yellowtail off the rocks in 60 feet of water, the range for these variables shrink, and I care a lot more about static drag, but in the end the variables still muddy things up- I can set at a much higher number, but it is a bit of a fools errand to try to be too accurate.
-J
I do straight pull as well
The only variable with my test this morning, other than using the rod, was line length. Streight pull was 1' and 10' with the rod. Tomorrow I will re do it with the same amount of line out to eliminate that variable. I do not see 9'less line on the spool causing 2-3 pounds more drag.
Quote from: pjstevko on Today at 03:54:43 AMI do straight pull as well
We are not building rockets here and our drag settings are just a baseline.
Quote from: Keta on Today at 04:31:25 AMThe only variable with my test this morning, other than using the rod, was line length. Streight pull was 1' and 10' with the rod. Tomorrow I will re do it with the same amount of line out to eliminate that variable. I do not see 9'less line on the spool causing 2-3 pounds more drag.
The scale is still recording max load, so you will still be just finding the static drag number. I think that is why you might be getting some variability based on rod angle. But testing the kinetic (after startup) drag is much more unwieldy, so I am not suggesting to do this as way to get "better" settings. I am just noting the inaccuracies in the methodology in the video.
If you wanted to test if rod angle affects drag when the fish is running, you would need to attach the scale to a moving object and observe the readings as you alternated between 45 degree and straight line. You would also be finding what the drag is during a run, which is the most important part for this type of fishing. Still not worth it IMHO. There are some videos out there where they do drag testing on fly reels with the line being pulled by a motorcycle. Mildly interesting.
QuoteWe are not building rockets here and our drag settings are just a baseline.
Agree. That was my main point. We need to be playing in the right ballpark, and a scale helps, but obsessing over getting a precise setting is not very helpful because of all the other variables besides your initial drag setting that affect the tension on the line in real life fishing when there is a significant amount of line out.
My advice would be to just pick either method and stick to it. Straight line is easier, and you can also test without the reel on the rod.
If you are landing fish, but want to land them faster, try more drag. If you are breaking off fish, maybe try less drag or maybe try some new knots ;)
-J
What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle? This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches. I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance.
If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early . Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook.
Quote from: oc1 on Today at 06:56:56 AMWhat is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle? This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches. I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance.
If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early . Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook.
That is a different question than what to set the drag at. But to answer you question, the rod is a lever with the leverage working against you. The closer to a 90 degree angle, the greater the effective lever length. The amount will vary depending on the rod length, bend, and hand grip location, but you will typically have to use several times of whatever force the fish is using to hold the rod up with just a 45 degree angle. As you get closer to pointing the tip at the fish, the effective lever length decreases to the point where you are at 1:1.
There are some useful reasons for different rod angles, but for simple pulling efficiency- straight line is the best.
-J
"What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?"
Watch a person using slow pitch gear fight a larger fish, they use the reels power and not so much the rod.
Once a fish is hooked there is a lot of variables to deal with, set your drag at 1/4 to 1/3 of the rods rating (I do 1/3) and forget about it. Use the drag lever to adjust the drag and the rod to keep tension on the fish. The rod (and the rail/fulcrum) and higher drag comes in play more when a larger tuna is in it's death spiral and the fight becomes more vertical.
Obsessing over drag setting, once the baseline is set, is really a waste of time.
As our resident engineer said above, the rod is a lever and the fulcrum changes all of the time, a softer rod bends more and reduces the mechanical advantage but they will allow a fish to more easily turn and go the wrong way. A shorter rod has advantages but on a LR boat a longer rod, 7.5-8.5 feet not 9-10 feet, is a better choice.
"This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches. I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance. If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early.
Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook."
Yup!
I have a bad knee on one leg, a bad ankle on the other, 3 bad disks in my lower back, I am in the mid 70's and am packing about 25 pounds of extra lard but using the rail allows me to land fish easier, especially plus size fish.
Jim - File this under "John has NO good reason why this happens, but it does". I use straight pull, and get all my gear preset weeks before I leave to go to landing. On gear day on the boat, I always recheck - and 1 or 2 reels always seem to have a variance in the settings I had at home (arid desert vs humid tropical ocean). As said - doesn't have to be "right on the money" as long as its close and you have a good idea of the range you are playing in. - john
I redid the test, same rod, same reel. I started with my topshot attachment at the reel.
Straight pull 20.5#, rod pull at about 45° 23.25#. A tested 4 times each letting the reel "settle" for 5 minutes between pulls and alternating straight and rod. All 4 tests were +- a 1/4 pound of each other.
I am putting a reel on a all roller rod next.
The outdoor demo in the vid was like watching some carney snake oil stuff.
Speed of pull was obviously different.
Adding friction (drag) of guides.....adds drag(.)
Progressive vs. linear. How much money and research has been spent to get closer to linear? How linear can a drag get.
Quote from: Keta on Today at 02:13:19 PMI re did the test, same rod, same reel. I started with my topshot attachment at the reel.
Straight pull 20.5#, rod pull at about 45° 23.25#. A tested 4 times each letting the reel "settle" for 5 minutes between pulls and alternating straight and rod. All 4 tests were +- a 1/4 pound of each other.
I am putting a reel on a all roller rod next.
Good stuff Lee. Thanks. Look forward to seeing if the rollers make much difference.
yeah, straight pull here as well. now off to more important things. i have a kitchen to clean.... ;D
:D Me thinks in the near future , there will be microprocessor drag control built into the reels with touch screen to program the desired drag . No more scaling needed . As of now I am the microprocessor .
The 6.25' AR rod results were similar but it is a lot easier pulling 20# with.
Quote from: Keta on Today at 04:14:09 PMThe 6.25' AR rod results were similar but it is a lot easier pulling 20# with.
That makes sense. Easier from the shorter lever (rod length). No change in drag because the coefficient of friction for UHMWPE (braid material) on polished ceramic insert material is crazy low, and if you were actually adding a couple pounds of load from friction, it would show as substantial wear on the line if it didn't break outright.
Yep, No friction with rollers and practically no friction with ceramic guides.
I am pretty convinced that getting different results on straight pull vs. bent rod is an artifact of static (startup) drag testing. The static load is applied very differently in these two methods, and some of the static load turns into stored energy on the bent rod, and will not be observed using a kinetic (running after startup) drag test.
I have yet to see an explanation of why the bent rod would make a difference otherwise. But I have provided an explanation of why it would not.
Unlike the video where they just yank on some line with a scale while swinging a rod and call it "scientific", a halfway decent scientific approach requires both controlled testing and a plausible explanation of why the observed results are happening that is consistent with known science (in this case Physics, and more specifically Tribology).
I am not criticizing Lee's tests. He is not hanging "scientific" on his observations. He has provided us with some useful data. The rest of the scientific work has yet to be done. And frankly, I don't think it is worth doing. But if somebody wants to defend that rod angle makes a difference on ongoing drag, feel free to pick up from here.
One other point is that drag is just one part of managing the load on that big tuna. There is also the amount of load applied when the fish is not taking line. I think this is probably where we find the biggest difference between the angler who struggles on a big tuna for a couple hours and the one who has it at the rail in under 20 minutes.
Like almost all fish species, tuna don't have a reverse, plus they have less endurance for turning than straight line swimming. Keeping its head pointed toward you as much of the time as possible will wear out the fish much faster than if you keep letting in turn around. That takes consistent winding load, the higher the better.
For awhile, I was playing with the idea of making a big game rod butt with a reel seat that could slide a very short distance do it could punch against a load sensor. Stick some batteries in there and a transmitter, make or tweak some software, and now we could record the load that the angler was applying to a fish throughout the fight, and could compare the histograms of various anglers. This would help identify what the guys who are landing big fish quickly are specifically doing differently. But I think we already know most of it.
It could probably be done for under $2000 USD, maybe a lot less. The interesting part was figuring out roughly how to do it. The less interesting part was spending the money and time to build it, recruiting anglers willing to try it with their valuable cow tuna fishing opportunities, training, etc. But if somebody else wants to run with it, I am willing to look at it some more.
-J
Here is a test to further confuse ya . Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale " Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight . Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?
Quote from: Keta on Today at 12:57:41 PM"What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?"
Watch a person using slow pitch gear fight a larger fish, they use the reels power and not so much the rod.
Once a fish is hooked there is a lot of variables to deal with, set your drag at 1/4 to 1/3 of the rods rating (I do 1/3) and forget about it. Use the drag lever to adjust the drag and the rod to keep tension on the fish. The rod (and the rail/fulcrum) and higher drag comes in play more when a larger tuna is in it's death spiral and the fight becomes more vertical.
Obsessing over drag setting, once the baseline is set, is really a waste of time.
]
YES! This should be the main takeaway from this thread!
QuoteAs our resident engineer said above, the rod is a lever and the fulcrum changes all of the time, a softer rod bends more and reduces the mechanical advantage but they will allow a fish to more easily turn and go the wrong way. A shorter rod has advantages but on a LR boat a longer rod, 7.5-8.5 feet not 9-10 feet, is a better choice.
When you are railing the rod, you are creating a class 1 lever (seesaw style) the fulcrum won't change unless you reposition the rod.
When you are using the typical fish fighting style with the butt on your hip or in a belt, you have a class 3 lever (crane style). Fulcrum won't change here either. But if you mean that the leverage will be changing constantly, I am in 100% agreement.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Lever_%28PSF%29.png)
There are a couple variables specific to fishing to keep in mind: First is that as the rod bends, it decreases the lever length. Second, unlike the seesaw or crane, as you change the rod angle to point more toward the fish, the load angle changes in your favor, further decreasing the effective lever length. This is why lower rod angles are more efficient. There are some relatively simple formulas that you can plug your measurements into and find out what the load multiplier is for your specific gear at a given angle.
When you are fighting with a class three lever (but on your hip or belt), where you locate your effort (lifting hand) on the rod makes a huge difference. Reaching up as far as you can without screwing up the ergonomics allows you to minimize the leverage thst the fish has against you. If you are railing a rod, that effort point should be as close to the butt as possible.
Better fishing through science!
-J
Yup x all.
To be "scientific" it would take a variable speed motor and a tachometer, it is not worth the effort and $.
Bottom line, set your drag at 1/4-1/3 (I do 1/3) of the rod rating and fish.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on Today at 06:03:49 PMHere is a test to further confuse ya . Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale " Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight . Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?
If I understand your test correctly, your question is answered in reply #23. You are measuring the effect of leverage.
On the main topic, leverage will not affect the drag setting vs measurement when the fish is continuously taking line.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on Today at 06:33:57 PMQuote from: oldmanjoe on Today at 06:03:49 PMHere is a test to further confuse ya . Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale " Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight . Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?
If I understand your test correctly, your question is answered in reply #23. You are measuring the effect of leverage.
On the main topic, leverage will not affect the drag setting vs measurement when the fish is continuously taking line.
-J
How does this lever work ? flat stick suspended weight is now 1.85 pounds . Stick at 85 ish degrees the weight is now less than a pound ?