This is my first reel rebuild, and my first post on this website.
I'm disassembling a Penn 113H, and I'm having trouble removing the spool. I've removed the left side plate and the frame posts, the handle and old drag washers. The right side assembly is still attached to the spool. I've looked everywhere, and I can't find any special instructions of how to remove the spool. Aside from pulling with brute force and potentially damaging something, is there an easy way to separate the spool from the right side (handle side) of the assembly? Am I missing something obvious? Thanks for your help.
-Mike
Mike, try unscrewing the right bearing cup first. Maybe this will dislodge the bearing. If you can get the bearing cup off and the bearing is still stuck on the spool, remove the 4 bridge plate screws then the whole assembly will release from the right side plate giving you a better angle to get the bearing out. If it's not the bearing then it's the pinion bearing. In both cases you can stick 2 screw drivers 180 deg. from each other and twist in opposite directions.
Let us know how gos it.
Bryan, I can't get the bearing cup off. It's too flush with the bridge plate to get ahold-of. I followed your advice (well, sort of), and removed the 4 bridge plate screws. The spool is now starting to separate from the bridge assembly, but it feels like parts are still connected and flexing when I try to pull it apart. I don't want to bend or break anything. This is what it currently looks like:
Welcome to the Forum Mike, we have all had similar problems to this.
Looking at the corrosion on your drag stack I would imagine both the pinion gear and ball bearing are rusted on the spool spindle.
Don't force anything until you get a better idea of where the problem lies. I would remove the screw and clutch lever and the inner reinforcing ring from the side plate and gently press on the ball bearing cup as it is fitted from the inside of the reel and will not unscrew.
Good Luck and let's know what happens.
Next best thing is to soak it in wd40, clr, or something like those to loosen up the crud.
Quote from: Irish Jigger on April 28, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
Welcome to the Forum Mike, we have all had similar problems to this.
Looking at the corrosion on your drag stack I would imagine both the pinion gear and ball bearing are rusted on the spool spindle.
Don't force anything until you get a better idea of where the problem lies. I would remove the screw and clutch lever and the inner reinforcing ring from the side plate and gently press on the ball bearing cup as it is fitted from the inside of the reel and will not unscrew.
Good Luck and let's know what happens.
I followed your advice and removed the screw & clutch lever. It was corroded in the bridge plate, but with a little tap from the back of my screwdriver, it came apart. As soon as it separated, I took this picture. I'm fairly certain this thing hasn't seen daylight since it was originally assembled.
Oregon: Nice job. Now remove the main gear and all the loose stuff. Stand the spool in CLR up to over the pinion gear and let soak for a day. Then use the 2 screwdriver trick that Bryan said to use and pry the bearing then the pinion, being careful not to chip the teeth of the pinion gear. You are on your way to a great reel rebuild. Dominick
Here's a side shot of the accentric jack. ...I'm guessing it's not supposed to have that curve in it. Looks like I pulled a little too hard.
Oregonafter,
Did the inner trim ring separate from the side plate before you removed the main gear? I didn't think the main would come out if the trim ring was attached to the side plate before removal. If I were you I would soak all the inners in CLR or distilled vinegar like Bryan and Dominick said before you attempt to take the rest apart and damage something. Hope that pinion isn't your problem... they are a pain in the neck to get unstuck if they're stuck good and tight. Be careful not to destroy the spool, they aren't cheap!
Dom
The bearing/shaft looks pretty corroded. I think I'll spray it down with WD and let it soak a while before trying the 2 screwdriver trick.
Quote from: broadway on April 28, 2012, 11:23:28 PM
Oregonafter,
Did the inner trim ring separate from the side plate before you removed the main gear? I didn't think the main would come out if the trim ring was attached to the side plate before removal. If I were you I would soak all the inners in CLR or distilled vinegar like Bryan and Dominick said before you attempt to take the rest apart and damage something. Hope that pinion isn't your problem... they are a pain in the neck to get unstuck if they're stuck good and tight. Be careful not to destroy the spool, they aren't cheap!
Dom
No, the inner trim ring and side plate were together when the main gear & assembly separated. They easily pulled-apart afterwards. The side plate and trim ring look good.
Here's another picture of the bearing and shaft. Pretty corroded.
The shaft that the bearing is attached to - Is this the actual spool shaft?
Would it be better to soak this in distilled vinegar, or WD-40? This looks like rust to me, so I'm thinking WD might be better.
Welcome aboard
Quote from: oregonrafter on April 28, 2012, 11:52:29 PM
Here's another picture of the bearing and shaft. Pretty corroded.
The shaft that the bearing is attached to - Is this the actual spool shaft?
Would it be better to soak this in distilled vinegar, or WD-40? This looks like rust to me, so I'm thinking WD might be better.
The bearing is shot so have no apprehension about removing it by taking it apart. You'll need a new one anyway.
More than likely, the pinion gear is rusted to the shaft (yes, what you see sticking out is the shaft of the spool), so before you try anything drastic, submerge the whole side into automatic transmission fluid and acetone combination (ratio not critical). Let it stand at least overnight. Just shooting it with WD40 may not do the trick. WD40 is a "water displacer" (hence WD) and not really a penetrating fluid. ATF with acetone is much better, even better than some commercial penetrating products. If overnight soaking doesn't do it, try longer (even a week if you must and keep the solution covered so it doesn't evaporate). Try to work that pinion gear clockwise and counterclockwise on the shaft to loosen it and use that two screwdriver trick. Failing that, try gently tapping the gear with a small hammer to break loose the rust. You might try a gear puller if you have a small one handy. If all that fails, you might have to resort to heating the gear with a torch so that it will expand around the shaft (try not to heat the shaft) If this doesn't work, then it's time for removal by destruction. Pinion gears can be gotten affordably, but spools are more expensive, as mentioned earlier. If the shaft is too damaged from the corrosion, the spool may ultimately need to be replaced anyway, however (because even if you have a machinist who can do the repair work, unless he'll do it for beer, as with Lee, it'll cost more than a new spool). Good luck.
That reel appears to be too far gone. I would split the pinion with vise grips and toss everything but the spool and plates. from the looks of your picture, the spool needs lots of sanding , you moght have to toss it out also. You could find a reel in fair condition for aroud $40, I just don't believe that bringing this one back to life is worth the effort. I'm surpriced, don't usually see many 113H's in that condition.
Whoa! I have to agree with Sal... that reel needs a resting place. Way too much work is involved to possibly revive her :-\
Dom
I'll also have to agree with Sal unless you have access to a bunch of spare parts... You will probably need a new spool since the shaft looks too far gone that even if you sanded it, to get it where there's no rust, the shaft OD would be greatly reduced.
Quote from: Alto Mare on April 29, 2012, 02:00:40 AM
That reel appears to be too far gone. I would split the pinion with vise grips and toss everything but the spool and plates. from the looks of your picture, the spool needs lots of sanding , you moght have to toss it out also. You could find a reel in fair condition for aroud $40, I just don't believe that bringing this one back to life is worth the effort. I'm surpriced, don't usually see many 113H's in that condition.
x2. :'(
I have never met oregonrafter but know him from another board, he has always been a good person and willing to help when he can.
This is Mikes first attempt at reel repair, he has a bad and somewhat spendy part to deal with (welcome to our world Mike) and I feel somewhat responsible about him starting down the dark path of home reel repair/modification.
So....if anyone has a usable 113H spool ( ;D preferably a NIB Newell ;D ) that they will donate to Mike's first reel project I'll give them 10 SS anti reverse dogs....113H or 114H, mix or match. The SS dogs sell for $3.00 each.
I'll look for a useable main gear to donate but I know I don't have pinion gears for a 113H.
Lee, any friend of yours is a friend of mine, I'm going to try to help oregonrafter. You can hold on to the dogs, you already do plenty for me.
Oregonrafter, send me a PM with your address...if you're ok with it. Sal
Wow. I feel all warm and fuzzy right now. ;D
Before anything, let me see if I can work some magic on this stuff. It's soaking in solvent right now.
I'll keep you posted...
The areas on the spool shaft "protected" by the gear and bearing shouldn't be too badly pited but you should take Sal up on the offer, your reel will be much better even if it isn't a NIB Newell spool. Pitting under the gear can cause freespool and disengagement problems. FYI, iron oxide is 10 times the volume of iron so rusted things often look far worse than they are.
I like ATF/Acetone for penitrating oil, 50/50 works for me.
Hello. I have no hands-on experience with this reel, but if you waste the bearing a la Tani style (crush with vise-grips and carefully remove the inner race with a dremel) you should be able to get more panther pee
to soak into the join between the pinion and the axle.
Then you could use the dremel wire wheel to remove the rust scale on said stub, in preparation for a try
in a non-destructive manner, and that is: use the two fully threaded bridge screws, placed in the two holes beside the axle, and slowly and incrementally screwed down on the spool equal and opposite to see if this much corrosion can be displaced.
I've had great luck doing this on the 330's, but they were not crudded up as severe as yours. Failing that, you can always use the dremel, and cut the pinion in two, to get it gone.
If this is useful, kewl. If not, well, then it was a good shot. 8)
Oregonrafter: At the risk of receiving slings and arrows from my fellow Tani-ites I would not destroy the pinion. I must respectively disagree. I have had success after soaking by grasping the pinion wrapped in a thick rag, grasped with a pair of channel locks and turning the spool to break it away fron the spool spindle. You have nothing to lose at this point. Go for it. After you get the pinion loose spin the spool spindle in a Scotch Pad to smoothe out the pits. you should be able to save everything but the bearing. The eccentric jack can be straightened.
LEE
I wish Alan had a Man of the year award so I could nominate you for it, you are the MAN.
Joel
You embarrass this crippled old millwright/ignorant sheep farmer.
Dominick,
I disagree with the nothing to lose theory... if you torque the pinion incorrectly you can bend the spindle just enough to make it garbage. I did just that on a spool off of a black side plated 114h (I believe Penn only made it for 2 years).
Oregonafter,
You can buy a used Penn 113h off ebay for about $40-$50 in good condition... It's not worth the time, rags, cleaning solvents, dried cuticles, frustration, or anything else to rebuild that baby. Take off what you can salvage and use them for spares. Just my opinion, of course! :o
Good luck with it,
Dom
Ps- Sal, Lee, Rob, Dominick, Justin, and the list goes on, are big time contributors to this site who lead by example. Like Sal said, "any friend of Lee's is a friend of mine" ...If you decide to bring her back to life let me know if you need a specific part and I'll get it to ya.
Here's where I am, guys: It's been soaking in some penetrant for 24 hours, but I haven't had time to work on it. At this point, I can't just give up, because if I do, I'm wasting a good opportunity to learn. I don't really care that much about this reel... I surely can afford to buy another one, and this is one of five 113H's that I already own.
Here's what I've learned so far: A group of people on the internet can be kind and generous. I'm pretty blown-away at how well I'm being received, even though I'm a complete novice. It has also been reaffirmed to me that people can disagree and still be respectful of one-another. This means more to me than a thousand reels, brothers, and my virtual hat is tipped to you. I didn't expect a fine lesson in humanity, but it's a very nice bonus.
I'm going to stick with this project, whether it becomes part of my recycling bin contents, or a great reel clamped to my albacore rod.
Thanks (reely). -Mike
Love your tanacity. Well, if this is the way you wanna rock...Let' do it... Just crack that bearing off. If you can lathe the spool, grind down the inner race. I also use a drill press when a lathe is not available. If not, then step it down to a portable drill. That way you can grind down a little at a time until it comes off. I don't like dremel cutoff wheels because slip can damage the spindle. Good luck and let us know as it goes along.
You're 100 percent right... Don't give up on it.... Use it as a learning tool. If you get that reel back up and going you will have resurrected a reel from the dead... Quite an accomplishment for someone new to this game. By the Way, Welcome aboard!
Dom
If you want, I can put it on the lathe and work on it for you.
QuoteIf you get that reel back up and going you will have resurrected a reel from the dead...
x2 Dom - it's a great feeling...
Good luck Mike.
Cheers, Justin
After a day and a half of soaking in solvent, I started working on it again. I applied naval jelly to remove the rust. The shaft is slightly pitted, but it looks workable. The rust wasn't as bad as I thought ...or so I thought...
My first attempt at removing the bearing was to place a 1/4" open-end wrench under the bearing, while tapping on the end of the shaft with a hammer. This did nothing but flatten the beveled end of the shaft. I stopped before it mushroomed too much, which would have prevented the bearing from ever coming off.
Scratch head. Time to rethink and retool.
I have no bearing pullers, so off to Harbor Freight, which is only about a mile from my house. I stared at their offerings for a good long time before choosing this $10 persuader.
This definitely wouldn't work as-is, so I had to fabricate a plate that would slip around the shaft, under the bearing. I made this out of a piece of 1/4" steel (shown below).
After extending the pushing shaft with a small diameter bolt, it's ready for applying pressure.
...crank, crank, crank..... POW! Spool flys in one direction, bearing pieces fly in every direction, while I stood there with a dumb look on my face. It took me a moment to understand what I was seeing (below).
Damn! I mean, #$Z%!
The inner ring of the bearing is still stuck on the shaft. I tried using vice grips... she's a no go. It's really stuck on there.
Time to rethink and retool again. ...Sigh.
I'm not sure what to do now, except get out the torch and heat 'er up. Suggestions?
If the bearing is this tough, I can't imagine I'll ever get that pinion gear off without demolition tactics.
Hey, even if this ends in failure, at least I'm having fun trying!
Keep up the good work, we are all learning from your adventure.
John
No matter what, it's a great learning curve.
I've been through this as well and have a 9/0 in my workshop at present with a thoroughly seized pinion.
You could try clasping the inner race with vice-grips and twisting it loose.
If you have a multi-tool (ie Dremel), you could also try cutting the inner race on a 45 degree angle (so as not to score the shaft), then twist/pry the cut open with a screwdriver.
If it's anything like the one I'm working on at present, the pinion is likely to be more difficult. :-\
Sometimes that's just the way it goes.
Been a good story thus far though! ;) ;D
Good luck, Justin
I'll repeat what I said earlier: Soak for a long time in ATF/acetone combination (not just a few drop on the top and let it sit).
Since you've already broken the BB and have the inner race exposed, take something like a small pipe wrench and try gently twisting it off. It should come off with enough persuasion, but don't overdo it or you'll damage the shaft by bending it.
Once the race is off, work on the pinion gear in a similar manner (I.E., wrap with a good amount of tape to protect the teeth, and then try twisting it off with pipe wrench or vice grip). Heat on the pinion gear should also work as a last resort. The heat may be high enough that it'll anneal the gear and make it unusable.
CRC makes something called "Freeze Off Super Penetrant" that works with cold rather than heat and should be less damaging to the pinion gear and shaft than heat. I've not tried it, but have heard good things about it.
Finally, if none of that works, send it to me and I'll cut off the gear on the lathe.
OA,
The only thing I would try in regards to the inner race that wasn't mentioned is a small pipe cutter so you can adjust how far down it cuts. Just go slow with whatever you do.... that's where I failed :-[
Good luck,
Dom
That inner race is hardened and should break with a gentle squeeze in the bench vice,works for me. ;)
Remember the pinion is engaged with the two "flats" on the spool spindle and I would suggest pulling rather than twisting (after a prolonged soaking in release agent.)
Good Luck,you have made great progress. We are keeping our fingers crossed that you save the spool. :D
Quote from: Irish Jigger on May 01, 2012, 07:12:31 AM
That inner race is hardened and should break with a gentle squeeze in the bench vice,works for me. ;)
Remember the pinion is engaged with the two "flats" on the spool spindle and I would suggest pulling rather than twisting (after a prolonged soaking in release agent.)
Good Luck,you have made great progress. We are keeping our fingers crossed that you save the spool. :D
I'll try squeezing it, as suggested. I'm going to soak it some more before continuing. Any suggestions on how to pull that pinion straight off of the spindle?
Try to get a plate under the gear or in the grove on the gear, load your puller up and then carefuly heat the pinion gear, it should expand and pop loose.
Is there any chance the pinion and inner race come off with canned air? I have seen mechanics use it to break off bolts that are rusted to the chasis.
I believe it may work if you turn the canned air upside with the straw in it, (be careful-Wear gloves for sure!) and direct it to where you think the spindle will freeze and not the pinion or race. It should take about a minute or so of constant cold spray then I'd try to pull the pinion and race off, GENTLY.
Keep plugging away,
Dom
Quote from: Irish Jigger on May 01, 2012, 07:12:31 AM
That inner race is hardened and should break with a gentle squeeze in the bench vice,works for me. ;)
Remember the pinion is engaged with the two "flats" on the spool spindle and I would suggest pulling rather than twisting (after a prolonged soaking in release agent.)
Good Luck,you have made great progress. We are keeping our fingers crossed that you save the spool. :D
Yes, the pinion gear is keyed to the shaft, so don't think about trying to completely twist it off. The use of the wrench was merely to "break" it free of rust (doesn't take much) and this is exactly why I cautioned against using much force. Once it's free from the "stuck", keep working it in any direction you can to increase the freedom.
It's currently soaking in ATF/acetone. I'm going to leave it there for a day or two before trying anything.
It could be challenging to try to use the same puller. The notch in the center of the gear is the only thing to grab ahold-of, and it's positioned below the rim (in the concave area) of the outside of the spool. In order to use the puller, I'd have to fabricate a notched plate that drops down in to the concave area.
The pinion is pretty delicate... I've already put a couple of gouges in the outside corners of the splines that I'll have to smooth-out if it survives the battle. It makes me nervous to put any pressure on those splines with pliers/vice grips, even if it is padded. I hate to be pessimistic, but I'm guessing I'm going to trash that pinion gear. No biggie if I do. I'm in this for the ride.
I'm back in action after soaking the pinion gear and end of the spool shaft in ATF & acetone for a couple days. The first thing I did was take the vice grips to the inner part of the bearing, which was still stuck to the spool shaft. Unlike before, this time it actually spun around the shaft when I twisted it, which was a good sign. After a few twists and some pressure, it finally just broke apart, which was great!
Next step: The pinion gear. For the last two days, I've been thinking of a good way to try to pull it off, but I really didn't come up with a great idea for using the puller I used on the bearing. I decided that it just wasn't worth the effort to try to fabricate a drop-down plate that would fit in to the groove in the gear. After-all, the pinion gears are not that expensive to purchase.
My quick and easy method for removal was vice grips. Before clamping-down on the gear, I gave it about 10 tight wraps with electrical tape. I used electrical tape because it's stretchy, and would tend to stretch down in to the splines, which (I was thinking) would give it more grip. I gently clamped-down on the splines of the gear - hoping not to cause any further damage. This is what it looked like before I did anything (below)
The first thing I did, was gave it a little pressure side to side, in hope of breaking the rust bond. Much to my surprise, it moved a little! After a little working it back and forth, I could tell that it was definitely loose, and was moving freely until it reached each "stop" on the sides of the pinion gear. After this, I started giving it pressure outward, while twisting it slightly back & forth. I was careful not to twist it too much, as I didn't want to damage the stops on the gear. After few minutes, it started moving and then came free! WOO HOO!!! Below is a picture of the shaft, right after I pulled the pinion gear. Notice that I did mushroom the end of the shaft with my first attempt of removing the bearing with the hammer. This was definitely the wrong idea, and was probably the reason the bearing blew in to pieces.
I've gone down the road this far, so I'm now thinking I should try to resurrect the spool shaft. The first thing I did, was applied naval jelly to the rust. After A couple applications and some very fine steel wool, it came pretty clean. I then carefully filed the mushroomed part off the end, so it can receive a new bearing. I think it turned out pretty good, and will definitely be able to be used again. If you click on the picture below, you can enlarge it for more detail (but you probably already know this :-).
The pinion gear received a little damage, but I spent about 15 minutes working it over with a very small file and I was able to get it looking pretty good. I credit this to one of those work lights with the magnifying lens and articulating arm... If you don't already have one of these, get one! They are absolutely fantastic for fine mechanical work like this.
Even though the gear is probably usable, I may opt to buy a new one, as they don't cost a lot. ...Opinions?
Well done mate - that's a great result.
Cheers for sharing the journey!
All the best, Justin
Hooray! Good job. Before ordering new parts, try to get the whole thing working again. I believe that you must buy a main gear and a pinion together, as they are cut together. If they are not matching they won't mesh properly. On the other hand you could get lucky and a new pinion will work with your main gear. I know you are having fun now. :) Dominick
Thanks for the ride, I had a great time!!!!
John
Nice going, I'm glad it's working out for you. You must have a lot of patience.
Dominick, most Penn gears don't come together in a bag as Newell and Accurate do. Oregonrafter will be able to just buy the pinion, it's only $9 and I think it might be a good idea.
Just caught up with this post, what patience it must have took to not just apply the "old Harley-davidson mechanic' approach of three weights of ball peen hammers and two sizes of Vice-Grips to pull everything apart.....I would have just wailed away at the D@#! thing....who would have thought of ATF and acetone for a penetrative solution?!?!
Would you happen to have any pictures of the finished reel/ it would be a great addition to the end of this post.
I would not describe myself as an overly patient person, but I tend to be persistent. I know that if I was put this reel aside because it's too challenging, I'd likely never attempt rebuilding another one. At times, it took some serious restraint to not throw the damned thing across the room and stomp up & down on it. :D
I got all the new parts yesterday, including the metal washers to complete the drag stack, a fiber washer for next to the main gear, a new pinion bearing & cup, some reel oil (I already have grease), and a new Penn wrench. I'd like to say that putting all the parts back together was a piece of cake... but I won't say that ;D. What I will say, is that NEXT time, it will probably be a piece of cake. Seriously, it really wasn't too difficult, but there are a couple of tricky spots that I had to learn how to deal with. Now that I have those parts mastered, it will go much easier.
Thanks, gents. I really couldn't have done this without the advice and encouragement I received here. Hopefully some newb like me will find this thread useful in the future.
Here's the fully reassembled reel. You'll probably notice the odd retention nut on the reel handle. This is a "Turn-A-Mate" crank adapter, which allows the user to attach an electric motor to the reel for retrieval. Our halibut are quite deep here in the Pacific Northwest, so this will facilitate easier bait checks.
well done!
Quote from: oregonrafter on May 03, 2012, 09:27:52 PM
I've gone down the road this far, so I'm now thinking I should try to resurrect the spool shaft. The first thing I did, was applied naval jelly to the rust. After A couple applications and some very fine steel wool, it came pretty clean. I then carefully filed the mushroomed part off the end, so it can receive a new bearing. I think it turned out pretty good, and will definitely be able to be used again. If you click on the picture below, you can enlarge it for more detail (but you probably already know this :-).
It could just be my monitor but it looks like the shaft is slightly bent.
OR,
Nice job with your first project... welcome to the club, hope you consulted your significant other/ wife before you came on this site cause your family just got bigger ;)
PS- I used the turn-a-mate to put line on my reels before I got a super spooler... cool tool!
Dom
Quote from: Makule on May 06, 2012, 10:30:09 PM
It could just be my monitor but it looks like the shaft is slightly bent.
Nah, it's straight. It's just my crappy photography making it look bent.
Well done Mike,good job and well worth the effort.
It's amazing what salt water can do to these reels when not maintained.