Okay folks, here's a question I hope isn't too nerdy. I'm trying to calculate how much relative force is required to turn a reel handle (in this case, a Penn 16VSX) with a given length, against a given drag load. The stock Penn 16VSX handle, is 2.75" between the centerline of the handle/knob shaft and the centerline of the main gear shaft. The Tiburon T-Bar handle for this reel has 3.30" in the same dimension. If I did my math right, that's just under 17% longer. The torque formula is pretty simple, but as my high school physics was in 1966, I kinda' forgot how to calc this! Let's say we set the drag at 20 pounds at strike. With the stock low gear ratio of 1.7 : 1, against the 20# drag setting, anyone on here wanna school me on figuring out the two different ft/lbs. of effort required to move the spool shaft? Oh, no, I forgot, the varying spool diameter with different amounts of line on the spool is part of this too...
Are you using greased drags?
Uh oh, I took up fishing because I realized that I am not that smart. This is getting complicated. I hope I don't need a new hobby. ???
That's above my pay grade. Sorry, I cannot help. Yeah, I'm an engineer, but an electrical engineer...which means...nothing much. ???
If your answers come up short it would be worth asking the same question on 360tuna and in particular DenisB. This type of engineering/physics question is right up his ally.
hi falconer
you could ask denisb or myself
the relative force needed to turn the handle is the same as the relative force a fly would use to cross a plate of treacle with snow shoes on, i think
Quote from: wallacewt on June 16, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
hi falconer
you could ask denisb or myself
the relative force needed to turn the handle is the same as the relative force a fly would use to cross a plate of treacle with snow shoes on, i think
My Man Wallace gives me belly laughs. Wallace that is funny. As to the question of relative force who cares? If you can't crank the handle cut the guppy loose. ::) Dominick
OK Wallace. Now we are cookin! Was that light or dark ? And I don`t mean the snowshoes.
Buzz
It is actually pretty simple. Force times distance. The variable of spool diameter is irelevent because it still theoretically takes X amount of drag pull regardless of diameter.
Quote from: wallacewt on June 16, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
hi falconer
you could ask denisb or myself
the relative force needed to turn the handle is the same as the relative force a fly would use to cross a plate of treacle with snow shoes on, i think
I love your analogy Wallace,and your humour. ;D ;D
It would have helped had he given the line diameter too. ;) ;)
I just reread your question and noted that my answer is not completely related to what you're asking so I'll remove it.
maybe some steroids can help build up your muscles... ;)
Quote from: Pescachaser on June 16, 2012, 11:21:45 PM
My Man Wallace gives me belly laughs. Wallace that is funny. As to the question of relative force who cares? If you can't crank the handle cut the guppy loose. ::) Dominick
[/quote]
x2
You might find a previous discussion of this interesting - look here
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=3131.0
Approximately 15 lb, 7 oz. in the case outlined above, or 18 lb 9 oz with the stock handle.
This with an assigned approximate spool radius of 1.5", since i don't have one to measure.
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I give you a lot of credit for trying Robert.
I remember catching fish in the 60's with a branch, string, cork from a wine bottle, a pebble, hook and a worm ....fishing is getting too complicated :-\
Ignore him,he's another one post wonder, wondering if his reel handle is fit for purpose. ::)
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 19, 2012, 12:31:07 AM
I give you a lot of credit for trying Robert.
I remember catching fish in the 60's with a branch, string, cork from a wine bottle, a pebble, hook and a worm ....fishing is getting too complicated :-\
To be honest, i still rather prefer it that way sometimes.
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QuoteTo be honest, i still rather prefer it that way sometimes.
Good call Robert/Sal.
Tackle's great - clearly we all love it - but there's something pretty special about hand-lining big fish...
Here's a couple of good kiwi blokes on a bit o' string... ;)
A kingie from the beach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4luWjys3A4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4luWjys3A4)
And a marlin from a dingy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavrLsf7_Dg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavrLsf7_Dg)
All the best, Justin
Falconer, I'm just curious as to why you are asking the question.
Lemme thank everyone for wading in on this, and Robert for actually taking a crack at it. I don't wanna over complicate it either, but I am looking for advantage. I'm not getting any younger and was trying to figure out if I just want to add a T Bar crank and handle to my Penn 16VSX or make my own crank arm from aluminum or stainless and just add the T Bar handle for $19 or so.
Quote from: falconer on June 20, 2012, 10:13:41 PM
Lemme thank everyone for wading in on this, and Robert for actually taking a crack at it. I don't wanna over complicate it either, but I am looking for advantage. I'm not getting any younger and was trying to figure out if I just want to add a T Bar crank and handle to my Penn 16VSX or make my own crank arm from aluminum or stainless and just add the T Bar handle for $19 or so.
Understood.
There is also (at least) one more thing to consider: The longer the arm is, the greater the circumference. You can substantially reduce the amount of force it takes to crank, but with each increase in length comes an increase in the amount of time it takes to make one turn. I did go to extremes on some experiments and did find that there are definitely practical limits to handle arm length. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of determining what is comfortable and "reasonable" except by trial and error. The best case, if you are contemplating making your own handle, is to make one that has either several mounting holes, or a continuous slot, so that the handle length can be adjusted until you find what works best. One company (don't recall which one, but might have been Everol) did have that kind of slotted handle.
Naw, I'm just going to get one of the Kolekar or T Bar handle/crank combos. There's a sweet spot in there for every reel and every angler where cranking effort is a good compromise with retrieval speed for different types of fishing. Many, many variables. All I was looking for was a little de-cluttering on calculating the relative force required to turn the handle under load (drag setting). It's fun to make your own stuff, but I have to balance this against my billable hours. Another half-inch or so of extra length significantly increases the angler's torque, without being an ergonomic mistep on cranking radius. Sure appreciate everyone's thoughts. I may run the risk of being a one-post wonder, but there is an actual life to be lived off-line. Alan knows I may possibly have a low-key modest surprise to float later this summer. Thanks, guys!
Daiwa has/had a slotted handle on the Saltiga Z series. A friend has one although it did break beside the slot when it was accidently stepped on.
Quote from: falconer on June 21, 2012, 06:10:46 AM
All I was looking for was a little de-cluttering on calculating the relative force required to turn the handle under load (drag setting).
Spool radius = 1.5" with 20 lbs on it (= how many in/lbs?) and btw YES spool radius matters
Gears 1.7:1
Handle arm (=radius) = 3.3" (= how many in/lbs?)
QuoteIt's fun to make your own stuff, but I have to balance this against my billable hours.
Then stop now. Trust me. :)
Also, btw, folks often talk of how hard it is to hold so-and-so many pounds of drag. Thats nothing compared to CRANKING that much. Try it. Trust me. I have. Really, i would venture so far as to say that it cannot practically be performed under real-life circumstances.
So really, the practical application of this question and subsequent answer is largely for naught.
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Quotefolks often talk of how hard it is to hold so-and-so many pounds of drag. Thats nothing compared to CRANKING that much.
Actually, I have extended handles so long that I can easily crank what I cannot hold (with a 14/0 for a type of fishing that we literally "winch" the fish in).