Last week Sal, Bryan, and I were going back and forth about the possibility of installing a 1+7 drag stack in a 114H. I did some measurements and decided it can be done if I can find some proper fitting 0.5mm thick carbontex washers. I settled on Smoothdrag's #59 washer. The diameter is too large and the hole is too small, but I've modified carbontex washers before. ;)
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010376.jpg)
A 6-115 HT100 and a #59 carbontex. Quite a bit of material must be removed from the carbontex.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010377.jpg)
Here is the assembled 1+7 drag stack. Notice how the last eared washer sits flush in the gear.
Reducing the diameter of the washers didn't go without a hitch. :( They are so thin and flexible that I damaged some of them on the grinder. I finished reducing the outer diameter on a bench mounted belt sander and used a dremel to open up the hole. The washers are all useable, but some of them are not pretty. Maybe someone can find a better way to reduce the diameter.
BTW this will work on the 9/0 Senator since they use the same main gear and washers.
Now, you owners of a black 114 Senator needn't feel left out. ;) It is still a very formidable reel and it also has room for a 1+7 drag stack. This is easier than the 114H because Smoothdrag's #21 carbontex is the correct diameter; just the hole must be enlarged to fit on the gear sleeve.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010375.jpg)
A 0.5mm carbontex and a 6-114 HT100.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010378.jpg)
The assembled 1+7 drag stack (black 114 Senator). The 114 metal washers are thinner than the 114H, so you have extra room to play with.
DISCLAIMER: These modifications are untested and may result in damage to your reel. Proceed with caution.
Nice George. Yeah, Sal and I have been debating the benefits for over a year now but settled on making other improvements because the 7+1 ratio, if you take it to it's limits, may shread gears unless you have steel or stainless steel gears, and didn't want to be responsible for this.
I guess it is...know your limits.
Nice work George . What drag numbers are you getting out of each reel??
John
Bryan, you're comments are noted. Obviously this is untested. I hope I don't have to add a disclaimer. ;) ;D I'm not a wealthy man.
Quote from: john2244 on June 21, 2012, 05:08:09 AM
Nice work George . What drag numbers are you getting out of each reel??
John
I don't know, as I just finished it up. I also don't have a scale, but I could use the water bucket method.
George
I just added a disclaimer to the first post.
Regards, George
George, I love it by the way. It's all about limits. I put in a 5+1 stack in my PG 251. Essentially, it has jigmaster guts. I could get easily 18-20# of drag, but my spool started rubbing, and I also shreaded some gears...bad... I replaced the gears and at 12#, it's smooooooth.
Alrightee, update on the 1+7 drag experiment. I tested my 114H to 45.8 lbs. A little more effort and I can lock the drags down completely with this weight. I'm not going to test my reel with any heavier drag, as I only have the stock Penn bronze main gear and I don't want to damage it. I wouldn't want to try holding onto a fish with this much drag without being strapped in a chair. It wouldn't be fun. ;D
George
Very nice george. Let me know what size washers you used... if you don't mind. The stock gears should handle 45lb, but I'm sure that you will hear different from others here ;D. If that 6/0 has a full Tib frame, I wouldn't worry about pushing it. I believe that gears fail from the reel twisting under load, knocking the gears out of alignment. If you have a full frame andt he double dogs, you should not have any problems. Now, thanks to your idea, I need to open a couple of dozen reels to upgrade ;D. Good job George ;).
Thank you, Sal. I used Smoothdrag's #59 carbontex and Penn's stock 114H metal washers. Also, a 6-114 HT100 under the main gear. The Carbontex were oversized and I did a less than pristine job of grinding them to size, but they work. In the meantime Dawn told me she recommends her #45A and #45B carbontex for the 114H. They are undersized compared to the stock HT100's, which is why I didn't initially choose them. Here are some dimensions in INCHES (I'm too lazy to do the inch to metric conversion thing ;)).
WASHER# OUTER DIA. THICKNESS
#45A 1.128 0.025
#45B 1.136 0.030
HT100 1.161 0.041
I'm going to change the #59 washers for Dawn's #45C. Their dimensions are 1.130 in. dia and 0.020 in. thick. Much less material to remove and seven of them will fit in my 114H, no problem.
Nice!
I feel if we can stick a 1.161 OD washer in the gear we should, even if we have to remove a lot of material from the #59 washers.
Sanwhich your Carbontex washers between metal drag when resizing to help keep them from flopping around. For the OD use an old bridge, gear sleeve, keyed metal washers spacers and star hold the washer together and resze the entire stack at one time using a belt sander.
BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog. I won't push my reel this hard again until I do. I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.
Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway? What will you use your 114H WEX for? I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna. I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel.
Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers. For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag. If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what? Then take my reel that benches at 45lb. At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?
George
Quote from: Keta on July 03, 2012, 04:21:22 AM
Nice!
I feel if we can stick a 1.161 OD washer in the gear we should, even if we have to remove a lot of material.
Sanwhich your Carbontex washers between metal drag when resizing to help keep them from flopping around. For the OD use an old bridge, gear sleeve, keyed metal washers spacers and star hold the washer together and resze the entire stack at one time using a belt sander.
Thanks for the tip, Lee. It is certainly easier than the way I did it.
Quote from: George4741 on July 03, 2012, 04:23:52 AM
BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog. I won't push my reel this hard again until I do. I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.
Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway? What will you use your 114H WEX for? I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna. I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel.
Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers. For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag. If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what? Then take my reel that benches at 45lb. At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?
George
Quote from: George4741 on July 03, 2012, 04:23:52 AM
BTW, I have an Accurate frame, but haven't yet installed a second dog. I won't push my reel this hard again until I do. I'm thankful to Penn for overbuilding these reels.
Sal, what would someone use a brute of a reel like this for, anyway? What will you use your 114H WEX for? I imagine they wouldn't be someone's first choice for cow tuna. I've heard those guys often use a 30 or 50 class lever drag 2-speed reel.
Another thing, I don't fully understand the drag numbers. For example, take an old 114H with an original 3-drag stack; suppose it maxes out at 20lb drag. If you put 45lb on will the line continue to peel off of the spool and the drags won't lock up, or what? Then take my reel that benches at 45lb. At what point do I know I've exceeded the max drag capabilities?
George
George, this is all new to us and it needs to be tested on the water, not just on a scale. All we can hope for is that we don't sacrifice our reels. The 6/0 and 9/0 have similar drags, appr. 25lb, I know that they could handle around 30lb, pushing them around 40lb,needs to be tested, I still think they could handle it.
About my WEX, I know of a few shark tournament guys that would snatch it out of my hands in a flash. Did I need it? No! But I had to have it and hopefully one day I'll get to use it.
About the drags, more washers equal more pressure. Being able to gradually increase that much pressure, I believe that your reel can bring in that tuna with less effort, it will also feel smoother. The last tuna put me out of work for a week, a few years back.
I will definitely give this a shot, but I'm trying it on one first and see how that goes. I still believe that you have a good thing going here George. All we need now are some Accurate gears.
A mix up with the water cutter ended up with me having 10 sets of .035" 349H metal washer rather than the Daiwa 50 washers I wanted. Last night I got out a 349H gear and started looking in to sticking in 2 more washers. I noticed the milled grooves for the eared washers was not full depth with .035" keyed washers and thin Carbontex washers and the ears bottomed out. This might be a non issue with the 114H and the slightly thicker Penn metal washers. I "fixed" the problem by using a thicker bottom keyed washer and still have room for the extra thin washers.
Now I need a 114H to tinker with.
Thanks for the cool writeup...so what is the final verdict on the parts needed to hotrod a 114H? I have one of the last US made ones never touched it was going to sell it but now seems like a fun project. The gear ratio might make it tough to really crank on a fish but I guess a longer handle could fix that, in addition to making the gears easier to destroy :)
7 x #45C carbontex
1 x 6-114 HT100
do you have the part #'s of the metal washers needed from Penn?
Where do you get the double dog parts?
Quote from: Keta on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 PM
A mix up with the water cutter ended up with me having 10 sets of .035" 349H metal washer rather than the Daiwa 50 washers I wanted. Last night I got out a 349H gear and started looking in to sticking in 2 more washers. I noticed the milled grooves for the eared washers was not full depth with .035" keyed washers and thin Carbontex washers and the ears bottomed out. This might be a non issue with the 114H and the slightly thicker Penn metal washers. I "fixed" the problem by using a thicker bottom keyed washer and still have room for the extra thin washers.
Now I need a 114H to tinker with.
Lee, bring me up to speed here. You were working on a 349H reel, if I recall. Why would you need Diawa 50 washers?
When I ran into that same situation with the thinner washers and the slots being too shallow, I ground out the slots so that they were deeper. The gear steel is very hard, so it took a while, but eventually the slots get deep enough to do the job.
If you really want to tinker with a 114H, I have one you can borrow. Of course, I get to keep the modifications. :) It's one of the anniversary models and is in very good shape, but I'm not using it at the moment (but will as soon as you juice it up).
I also could use some of those 349H washers as I'm getting a couple of them today.
I'll eventialy find a 114H to tinker with, right now I'm busy keeping the pasture green.
How can you turn down such a generous offer, Lee. You should jump on it. ;D
Quote from: reelgood on July 03, 2012, 02:18:16 PM
Thanks for the cool writeup...so what is the final verdict on the parts needed to hotrod a 114H? I have one of the last US made ones never touched it was going to sell it but now seems like a fun project. The gear ratio might make it tough to really crank on a fish but I guess a longer handle could fix that, in addition to making the gears easier to destroy :)
7 x #45C carbontex
1 x 6-114 HT100
do you have the part #'s of the metal washers needed from Penn?
Where do you get the double dog parts?
Reelgood, you're entering dangerous waters. ;D Anyway, because of the increased drag and stresses involved here, most of us will recommend an Accurate or Tib frame and a stainless gear sleeve. And probably some other improvements I don't recall.
I'm not happy with Penn's keyed metal washers. They are slightly cupped, like a belleville washer and approximately .008" off from being perfectly flat. Penn stamps them out in a die/press and doesn't machine them flat. Dawn advertises her washers as "ground flat" and Suitekids says they are thinner than Penn's. Soooo, I'm ordering a set of metal washers from Dawn/Smoothdrag.
George
Hi George,
I see you mention Penn washers not being flat, found this out when I stripped my 113h. As a newcomer to all this I thought that was how they were meant to be. Then I saw Dawn advertising them ground flat as you point out, so to save them having to be posted across the pond, I flattened and polished them myself. Started with 150 wet and dry, then progressively went finer, and finally polished them with paste and a felt wheel on the dremel. Seem to have worked okay.
Mike.
Quote from: reelgood on July 03, 2012, 02:18:16 PM
The gear ratio might make it tough to really crank on a fish but I guess a longer handle could fix that, in addition to making the gears easier to destroy :)
7 x #45C carbontex
1 x 6-114 HT100
do you have the part #'s of the metal washers needed from Penn?
Where do you get the double dog parts?
I like the stock 1:2.8 gear ratio, but I want a stainless gear set to replace the bronze one; I also worry about shredding the gears.
The part # for the metal washers is (please double-check my numbers):
eared 7-115
keyed 86-115L
I think Lee and/or Sal have a line on the stainless dogs.
It's not always about gear ratio, the spool diameter on a 114H is almost 3.5". A 2.8:1 on that particular reel is not a bad thing. With that said, I would still like to get my hands on the 3.25:1 ss gears. I'm hoping that one day reel manufacturers will wake up and start making reels with a 5" or 6" spool in diameter and about 2.5" wide with aluminum body and ss gears ( no grphite ). Boy that would be nice, on a 2:1 ratio, that reel would retrieve about to 4' of line per crank.
It's not always about gear ratio.
A power handle is always a good upgrade, regardless of the ratio.
....Just my opinion.
Quote from: Jerseymic on July 04, 2012, 07:10:02 PM
Hi George,
I see you mention Penn washers not being flat, found this out when I stripped my 113h. As a newcomer to all this I thought that was how they were meant to be. Then I saw Dawn advertising them ground flat as you point out, so to save them having to be posted across the pond, I flattened and polished them myself. Started with 150 wet and dry, then progressively went finer, and finally polished them with paste and a felt wheel on the dremel. Seem to have worked okay.
Mike.
Mike, I'm often amazed how innovative you guys are across the pond. Another example; a Filipino friend of mine will go to great lengths to repair auto parts and electric motors that the rest of us in the USA would just throw out and replace. But then, "that's the way they doos it" in the PI. It seems that very few Americans know how to use tools anymore, and the rest don't care to learn. :( Whereas, in the birthplace of the industrial revolution (the UK) I hear you guys never lost that skill. I also heard many of you know your way around a machine shop, making little steam engines and such. Neat stuff!
Anyway, I noticed that my 113H washers were also cupped. I put that reel on the back burner and when I go back to work on it, I might try your method. I work only 3-4 days a week and have lots of free time. ;D
George,
I think we have to be innovative over here, we don't have all the wonderfull goodies readily available as you guys do.
If I could have bought ready flattened washers here I probably would have, my fingers are still sore from the rubbing backwards and forwards on the wet and dry!!!!
Unfortunatley I know my way around the wrong sort of machine shop for working on reels, being a carpenter.
I am toying with the idea of making my own stainless dogs, file, grinder, drill press, more sore fingers come to mind!!
My tools and knowledge of engineering is very limited, but I am willing to have a go.
Mike
I have a correction on my post above.
Line retrieve on the 2:1 ratio would be 38" not 48"....thanks for bringing this to my attention John.
Wow, imagine a gear ratio of 3.25:1, you would be able to retrieve around 65" per crank.
We have to try to build this reel ;D
George,
I forgot to mention when flattening the washers, to hold them, I used a piece of dowel just smaller than the diameter of the washer, and stuck double sided tape on the bottom to hold the washer. Plastic or any dowel that won't soak up water is best because once wood gets wet the tape won't stick.
The only pain is having to change the tape for each side of the washer, but this way at least you keep your fingertips away from the wet and dry, as I found out to my cost, with a ground down fingertip!!
Mike.
Quote from: Jerseymic on July 04, 2012, 08:01:53 PM
Unfortunatley I know my way around the wrong sort of machine shop for working on reels, being a carpenter.
I am toying with the idea of making my own stainless dogs, file, grinder, drill press, more sore fingers come to mind!!
My tools and knowledge of engineering is very limited, but I am willing to have a go.
Mike
After I met the water cutter my fingerprints grew back and I'm now polishing SS dogs and drag washers in a rock polisher with ceramic media. The water cut ones are just as nice as the hand cut ones.
I don't think a small amount of cupping is a big problem but I prefer flat metal washers and in the past used sharpening stones to make the factory ones flat.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 05, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
We have to try to build this reel ;D
Yup!
Quote from: Keta on July 05, 2012, 01:01:53 PM
I don't think a small amount of cupping is a big problem but I prefer flat metal washers and in the past used sharpening stones to make the factory ones flat.
Me too, I've been using Scott's for a while now and never had problems. I believe that the washers sit in flat under load, I wouldn't worry about a little cupping
Quote from: Keta on July 05, 2012, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 05, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
We have to try to build this reel ;D
Yup!
I know of a guy that could help me do it...if he wanted to ;).
QuoteI know of a guy that could help me do it...if he wanted to ;).
You're a master of subtlety Sal ;) ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 05, 2012, 04:59:57 PM
Quote from: Keta on July 05, 2012, 01:01:53 PM
I don't think a small amount of cupping is a big problem but I prefer flat metal washers and in the past used sharpening stones to make the factory ones flat.
Me too, I've been using Scott's for a while now and never had problems. I believe that the washers sit in flat under load, I wouldn't worry about a little cupping
Normally I'm not concerned, either. But I have a theory that since the HT100's are thicker, they are softer and compress some, even if the cupped washers don't completely flatten out under heavy pressure. The paper thin carbontex is harder and I think the cupped washers may not make full surface contact except under extreme pressure. I can't prove my theory, but I feel better about using flat washers. And, it's all about making me feel good. ;D
Quote from: George4741 on July 06, 2012, 02:07:52 AM
I can't prove my theory, but I feel better about using flat washers. And, it's all about making me feel good. ;D
George, when you feel good we feel good ;). Cheers!
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 06, 2012, 02:38:57 AM
Quote from: George4741 on July 06, 2012, 02:07:52 AM
I can't prove my theory, but I feel better about using flat washers. And, it's all about making me feel good. ;D
George, when you feel good we feel good ;). Cheers!
I luv you guys, and this forum. :-*
Its funny to hear mention of the cupped keyed washers. I thought I was the only one bothered by that. When I was working on my 9/0 I had the washers lined up in front of me. When I went to pick one up my desk lamp revealed a shadow under it and my calipers confirmed it. I solved it with a 300/600 grit 12" diamond stone with light pressure over the center hole to provide even removal of material after using a Sharpie pen on both sides first to confirm my work. Worked like a champ.
By doing this, did you end up with uneven thickness fr the edges compared to the center?
No. You do end up with slightly thinner washers. It is imperative to apply light, even pressure directly over the hole. I used rifle cleaning patches to protect my finger and confirmed eveness with the calipers. I was suprised how little material needed to be removed.
Quote...did you end up with uneven thickness fr the edges compared to the center?
Wondered the same thing meself.
It may be a bit agricultural, but I generally put the washers on an anvil and whack 'em with a hammer. ;) ;D
Once I've put some manners on 'em, I'll finish off with fine grit wet n dry etc.
They still use anvils in NZ? ;)
I wonder if it really makes a difference. I wish we could experiment given the same reel and carbonfiber washers, just different metal washers. Not just on a scale, but some 50 yard runs.
Quote from: Bryan Young on July 06, 2012, 03:34:41 AM
By doing this, did you end up with uneven thickness fr the edges compared to the center?
Start on the cupped side and hone until flat, turn washer over and checking often with a micrometer work the other side down until it's sides are parallel with the first side......it's faster/easier for me to take a drawing to the water cutter now. I'm thinking about making a "test bench" using my ATV "knot tester" to put some "50yd" runs on one of these reels set up this way.
Last night I was sorting thru a pile of Carbontex washers I have and noticed that washers from a ABU 7000 were close to the same size as 113H washers and .020 thick. The OD was slightly larger and the ID considerably smaller so I broke out my Dremml, opened up the ID and removed a little on the OD with a fine file and got 5 of the .020 Carbontex to fit in the gear, using one .060 stock Penn keyed washer on bottom, .037 keyed and eared stock Penn washers untill the last .060 keyed washer on the top. The .020 thick Carbontex washers will do the same in a 349H.
BTW, with a pair of eared washers for backing the thin .020 Carbontex washers come out looking good, the OD didn't take much though.
Quote from: Keta on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 PM
A mix up with the water cutter ended up with me having 10 sets of .035" 349H metal washer rather than the Daiwa 50 washers I wanted. Last night I got out a 349H gear and started looking in to sticking in 2 more washers. I noticed the milled grooves for the eared washers was not full depth with .035" keyed washers and thin Carbontex washers and the ears bottomed out. This might be a non issue with the 114H and the slightly thicker Penn metal washers. I "fixed" the problem by using a thicker bottom keyed washer and still have room for the extra thin washers.
Now I need a 114H to tinker with.
Lee, are you thinking of putting a 1+7 drag stack into a 349H?
Quote from: JasonF on July 06, 2012, 04:09:07 AM
They still use anvils in NZ? ;)
We still use them in Hawaii too. :)
Quote from: George4741 on July 07, 2012, 03:18:08 AM
Lee, are you thinking of putting a 1+7 drag stack into a 349H?
Yes, they will fit and as soon as I get some #59 washers I'll put one together.
Gday all, reels like the squidders need a bigger drag stack more than a 6/0 , any way to do this ?
a little off topic but just putting it out there.
You can all continue on , i to have tried to use as many washers in the gears as i can .
continue on.....
Harry, I don't think the squidder main gear is deep enough to accept anything greater than a 1+3 drag stack.
Quote from: Keta on July 07, 2012, 06:09:21 AM
Quote from: George4741 on July 07, 2012, 03:18:08 AM
Lee, are you thinking of putting a 1+7 drag stack into a 349H?
Yes, they will fit and as soon as I get some #59 washers I'll put one together.
Keep us updated on your progress. I'm very interested in how this works out.
Yes George the main gear is indeed very shallow , thinking of maybe trying to take out some material to deepen it, or maybe there is a compatible main gear that is deeper and maybe with some dremel work on the sideplate it can work /fit .
OR maybe i should just be fishing with jigmasters instead of squidders of the beach. Squidders do cast well tho and are the right size.
Harry, I believe that it would be a good idea to leave that squidder as is.
As I mentioned earlier, I initially used some #59 carbontex washers to complete my 1+7 drag stack, but I wasn't happy with their appearance after reducing the diameter. I've replaced them with some #45C carbontex washers. The #45C diameter is slightly smaller than the original HT-100's, but not noticeably so. I had to enlarge the holes so they would fit on the gear sleeve. I also replaced 3 keyed and 2 eared metal washers with Smoothdrag's 114H washers. I used 1 Penn eared and 1 Penn keyed washers to finish off the stack. The Smoothdrag metals are the same thickness as the Penn metal washers, so the only advantage they offer (if any) is that they are ground flat.
Anyway, I've decided on this as the final drag configuration for my 114H.
George
Quote from: George4741 on July 15, 2012, 07:36:20 PM
Anyway, I've decided on this is the final drag configuration for my 114H.
George
George, I'm hoping that you don't mean that you're done experimenting :-\.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 15, 2012, 09:26:04 PM
George, I'm hoping that you don't mean that you're done experimenting :-\.
No, and I'm not disappearing anytime soon, either. ;D Since I won't be fishing with this reel for a while, I may rig it up to my truck and do some 50 yard runs. I'll let you know.
Sal i will most likley only be able to change the gear sleave from brass to stainless.
That would also be all that I would do on that reel. Maybe Lee could make us some ss dogs for it, but I would keep just one dog in it. These are nice reels and happy at around 8 to 10 Lb. Later Harry. Sal
Quote from: George4741 on July 16, 2012, 12:28:39 AM
No, and I'm not disappearing anytime soon
Good, I'm blaming you for what I'm doing to (with) my 349H drag stacks and I'm planning on attempting to get a 5+1 stack in a 60 size main gear this fall when things start to slow down. The supper thin metal washers (thinner than .035) might be a problem but 60 gears have a small ID.
Quote from: Keta on July 17, 2012, 01:19:51 PM
Good, I'm blaming you for what I'm doing to (with) my 349H drag stacks and I'm planning on attempting to get a 5+1 stack in a 60 size main gear this fall when things start to slow down. The supper thin metal washers (thinner than .035) might be a problem but 60 gears have a small ID.
I like that idea, Lee. And it might make my next dream possible. ;) That would be a 1+7 drag stack in my black 4/0. ;D
I know what you're thinking, Sal. But it has steel gears and I promise not to push it too hard.... ;)
George
I'm thinking I'll try it on one of my 100 and black 4/0 after I put the irrigation system away for the winter. Both have steel gears and I think a 5+1 will fit. ABU 5600 washers are the right OD and the ones I measured run .018"-.020" thick.
Quote from: George4741 on July 17, 2012, 04:30:37 PM
[I know what you're thinking, Sal. But it has steel gears and I promise not to push it too hard.... ;)
George
I'm for it George, we need to know on how far we can push these reels. Don't ever give up buddy ;).
Strangely, i found myself reading this. I usually don't pay attention to this sort of thing.
By a series of coincidences, this subject sort of came up over at my place the other day.
Digging through an old box full of junk, when i stumbled upon the cadaver of an old 9/0 Senator in pieces; it must have been there for ten years at least. Surprisingly, it seemed to be complete, so i decided to assemble it.
Poked it together with the original stack of three thick drag washers, which will do, but found myself thinking again that really, the drag stack would be far more effective if one did away with the floating friction washers and used a series of eared friction washers instead, since that renders the eared metal washers superfluous and allows the available space to be utilized more effectively. Which is what Penn did with the Versa-Drag.
I'm not really a fan of ears on washers, since i generally find them a pain in the butt to make. So i was thinkin' that really, a far easier shape to cut, and likely much stronger, would be a hexagon, or maybe even better, a dodegon.
Sorta like this:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-9.jpg)
So far so good... If i chose a friction material say, 1 mm thick, and a series of metal washers of equal thickness, there would be room for a dozen or so in the main gear. That is good, since it provides about 66% more drag surface area than the usual floating friction washer arrangement.
Not bad.
So, i got curious and actually went to that Scott's Penn Parts site you guys are always talking about, where i found that the six-eared drag washers for several of the Torque reels are the same size as some of the GS reels too. And, as near as i can tell, are really close in size to the ones used in the 115L... which happen to be the same as the ones in the 114H, which this thread is about.
Hmm... In that case, i wonder if it would work to..
pop over to the lathe and rough out a gear blank of equal size as the Penn 115L main gear
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-5.jpg)
hop on over to the other lathe and bore to size
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-6.jpg)
scamper over to the mill and poke out the six slots
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-7.jpg)
and presto...
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-8.jpg)
...a new gear blank that fits the standard washers from Penn. I didn't cut the gear teeth because i couldn't be bothered to rig up the gear hobbing machine, and besides, i was only wondering if the idea was feasible.
So really, i guess i was thinking that those of you are really interested in this sort of thing, who have access to these reels (i don't have any myself) should take some measurements, or those of you who are familiar with Penn parts, should really check and see if not the main gears, pinions, drag washers, shafts and whatever else can be adapted to play nicely in a Senator 114 or 115.
Hmm... while fiddling about, i also came up with and made an internal hex cartrige adapter that drops into the existing Penn main gear, allowing the use of hexagonal friction washers. The hexagonal profile reduces their effective diameter somewhat however. Can't find the pic. Too bad.
Well... Gotta go.
Doc.
.
Wow.
You take it to another level Doc.
Wish I had your workshop (and expertise) ;) ;D
Thanks for the inspiration, Justin
I need a machine shop with gear cutting equipment.
Impressive!
Are you saying that you're also able to cut gear teeth?
Could you give me an idea on how much it would set me back, for you to cut me some ss gears for a 113H as you're showing on your last shot? I have a couple of gears that I could pull out of my reels.
This is some amazing stuff.
You know, if I could make them out of steel and heat treat them for strength, I can deal with coating them with grease for rust prevention.
Wow, Doc, that is definately thinking outside of the box. It also takes it out of the hands of us amateurs. Perhaps someday a gear manufacturer such as Accurate will make sets of gears like this.
I've decided to double dog my 114H. Because of the increased stress generated by the 1+7 drag, I want to go with both dogs engaging simultaneously. However, it may lead to a problem. I will point it out in the second photo.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010381.jpg)
Here is the sideplate dremeled out.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010382.jpg)
Here the dogs are engaging simultaneously. Notice how the new dog isn't square with the gear sleeve cog. Think it will be a problem? I don't like it.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010384.jpg)
A photo of the 7-drag stack. I mistakenly ordered only five #45C carbontex washers, instead of 7. So, I used HT100's as the first and last washers in the drag stack. It works.
(http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q523/rumbum01/P1010385.jpg)
Here is the assembled 1+7 drag stack.
The second dog should be filed down to squarely engage the cog on the gear sleeve. But then, if I'm not careful, both dogs may not engage simultaneously. I would have to rotate the handle slightly beyond where the first dog engages to be sure that the second one does, too. Follow me? The angle of the second dog, in relation to the gear sleeve, is different. Maybe I should just go with alternating dogs. Your thoughts, anyone?
George
Great job on that plate George. I see what you mean about the dogs not engaging at the same time if you square it off, but it shouldn't be too bad. I have a 15-115 and a 15-114H in my 9/0, I believe it should also work on a 6/0, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe you'll need to do a little shaving :-\, but it should work.
Nice work George !!
John
Nice work.
Try 2 brass 115 dogs and hand fit them with a file. Shift the original dog far enough that you can get a better angle for the new dog.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 17, 2012, 10:35:15 PM
Are you saying that you're also able to cut gear teeth?
Could you give me an idea on how much it would set me back, for you to cut me some ss gears for a 113H as you're showing on your last shot?
Mmhm. Yes, and usually for reels. I have a gear hobber i used for the Everol automatic prototypes, two-speed and three-speed conversions, reels for myself, and stuff like that. I don't use it much these days.
How much? Probably a lot. Some things i do just for fun or of a personal interest, but at a just-for-money level it is probably quite expensive.
Quote from: Bryan Young on July 17, 2012, 10:37:21 PM
You know, if I could make them out of steel and heat treat them for strength, I can deal with coating them with grease for rust prevention.
Maybe so, but such gears may require a second, post heat treatment grinding operation, which is something I am not equipped to do. Better alternative would be to use a stainless steel to begin with, possibly nitrided afterwards, or simply stay with the bronze or brass which has worked just fine for Penn for many years.
Quote from: George4741 on July 18, 2012, 12:19:02 AM
Wow, Doc, that is definately thinking outside of the box. It also takes it out of the hands of us amateurs.
Thanks, but I was never inside the box. Never will be.
Really though, this is something i was chatting with Kerry Stottlemeyer about maybe ten years ago, and i can't imagine that we were the first. A few years ago, Penn patented and implemented this idea in a few different reels.
So really, as said, someone ought to have a closer look at what combinations are available from Penn, like the parts from the Baja Special, Torque, Fathom, the Versa-Drag, Versa-Gear and whatever all else. Maybe you can put something together for yourself.
If I were to start manufacturing these? Weeell maybe. I'll think about it. I would also need to hash out some kind of easy deal with Penn for borrowing their IP, or vice versa.
.
QuoteIf I were to start manufacturing these? Weeell maybe. I'll think about it. I would also need to hash out some kind of easy deal with Penn for borrowing their IP, or vice versa.
If you're inclined Doc, please do... ;) ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 18, 2012, 02:01:08 AM
Great job on that plate George. I see what you mean about the dogs not engaging at the same time if you square it off, but it shouldn't be too bad. I have a 15-115 and a 15-114H in my 9/0, I believe it should also work on a 6/0, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe you'll need to do a little shaving :-\, but it should work.
Quote from: john2244 on July 18, 2012, 02:28:50 AM
Nice work George !!
John
Quote from: Keta on July 18, 2012, 03:10:06 AM
Nice work.
Try 2 brass 115 dogs and hand fit them with a file. Shift the original dog far enough that you can get a better angle for the new dog.
Thanks for the praise, guys. However, I'm just a student at this. We all know the real movers and shakers with the 2-dog concept. ;)
I have a 115 dog and I'll experiment with some different combinations. We'll see....
Quote from: Robert Janssen on July 18, 2012, 10:26:26 AM
or simply stay with the bronze or brass which has worked just fine for Penn for many years.
We are attempting to go beyond what these reels were designed for and gear stripping is one of the potential problems.
I'm not fond of SS for working surfaces due to gauling and would prefer bronze over SS, do you ever work with inconel?
Here's my double dog. Both dogs are SS from Lee and the gear sleeve is also SS from Alan.
I really believe that this will hold with on problem using one dog for 30# of drag. We've locked down on 80# test with an extend 4/0 (113HLW) with no damage to the dogs. So I opted for double alternating dogs to reduce on the handle backlash. Now, the gears.
I only did one, but plan to do all 4 of my 6/0s in this manner once we can get gears cut.
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/Hotrodding/IMG_0653.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/Hotrodding/IMG_0654.jpg)
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/hawaiiansurfinboy/AlanTani/Hotrodding/IMG_0655.jpg)
It looks like the angle of the SS dogs needs to be changed a bit, if it's a problem the drawing can be altered easily.
Quick rub with the file and Bob's your uncle. ;)
Quote from: Keta on July 18, 2012, 06:37:37 PM
It looks like the angle of the SS dogs needs to be changed a bit, if it's a problem the drawing can be altered easily.
I hit it with a file. It's all good. Thanks Lee. Just snapped off a few shots before I cleaned up.
Since both the dogs and AR sprocket are made of SS, not having full contact on the second dog shouldn't be a problem since the SS is quite tough and reasonably hard (harder than brass). Over time, and with a lot of use, it's possible that either the dog or sprocket (or both) will wear, but that will actually be good since the surfaces will work-harden and become even more resistant to wear. If one side wears, the other will start to wear as well. Eventually, they should both get to a point of becoming equal and stabilized.
My view is that the chance of breakage is essentially nil, and unacceptable wear is actually quite low since, in relative terms, we're talking about fairly low pressures applied to the dog and sprocket. SS can handle quite a fairly high amount of pressure and I doubt that we're anywhere near a danger point.
Nice Job Bryan! Now don't forget, you have one of these:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=injection%20mold%20plate%20from%20penn%20reels&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CG0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennreels.com%2Fsites%2Fall%2Fthemes%2Fpenn%2Fimages%2Frepairbulletin1.pdf&ei=hSIHUPnpMOfe0gG7-OTdCA&usg=AFQjCNFCgrgC89sPMvm3g4Qt91AKwVamjQ
I never had a problem with them, I actually just put together a 114H, same as yours and one of my 113H's also has the same plates.
Personally, I'm not worried about bit, I actually like the way the left side bearing is sitting much better.
Is that a warrantee replacement?
Yes, but I'm not sure if they still replace them. You already carved yours , so don't worry about it. I'm sure they'll do just fine.
Update on my 114H with the 1+7 drag washer stack. Early on in this thread I tested my reel to 45.8 lbs drag. I used a weighted bucket to arrive at that figure. I've since bought a digital fish scale and the reel benches at 43 lbs drag. This is a straight pull, not pulling through a bent rod and guides. I think this is more than enough for a 6/0 reel. ;D
Additionally, my black 114 with a 1+7 drag stack tested at 36 lbs. Not too shabby for the old boy.
Question; are digital scales suitable for this purpose, or should I get a spring scale?
A digital should work but if you are looking for a spring scale I have a pile of 8lb ones and not as many 16lb ones I'm selling cheep. I can get 50lb ones for a good price, all hecho en los Estados Unidos. If you upgrade the drags on a large Internatoinal ;D I can get 150lb spring scales but they run around $35.00 ea.
Scales are good, but to me the most accurate way is to lift a bucket with the rod...just watch your back or the ceiling ;D. I would take it outside. With that kind of pressure, you should be strapped to something :-\. I lifted 25lb with my tank and it wasn't easy.
Quote from: Keta on July 29, 2012, 11:21:49 PM
A digital should work but if you are looking for a spring scale I have a pile of 8lb ones and not as many 16lb ones I'm selling cheep. I can get 50lb ones for a good price, all hecho en los Estados Unidos.
Es una buena cosa. ;) BTW I'm hoping we'll soon hear of the 1+7 drag results on your 349H. I think Albert already did his.
Quote from: George4741 on July 31, 2012, 01:32:21 AM
Quote from: Keta on July 29, 2012, 11:21:49 PM
A digital should work but if you are looking for a spring scale I have a pile of 8lb ones and not as many 16lb ones I'm selling cheep. I can get 50lb ones for a good price, all hecho en los Estados Unidos.
Es una buena cosa. ;) BTW I'm hoping we'll soon hear of the 1+7 drag results on your 349H. I think Albert already did his.
Albert did but he's busy with work and campaigning right now. Initial (no break-in) numbers were something like 25 lb straight out from the reel.
Hi all. So i just did the 7+1 upgrade and i can only get 25lb of drag, any suggestions on the problem, i cant figure it out. thanks
My first guess is that the groves in the main gear isn't deep enough and needs to be dremeled deeper. I found it in some gears and the first eared washer teeters in that slot.
Thanks bery much Bryan, i will give that a go.☺
Just opened her up and the grooves that the eared washers go in go all the way to the bottom. Any thoughts? Thanks
They usually do.
If you're able to show a pic of your layout, do so. Seems like something is out of place.
By the way, how much drag are you planting on getting with those, you're right at around where you're going to be, maybe 3-4 lbs more.
Those are a good upgrade, your reel will feel very smooth throughout, but don't think you'll be pulling the same numbers as we do with the inserts.
Sal
Yeah might just get the insert anyway, seems like the way to go. Thanks for your help
A little misunderstanding there. I don't see anything wrong with Bryan's kit, I like them so much that I have a bunch.
All I said was, don't compare the numbers with the kit and the inserts, the inserts will give you higher numbers, but not necessarily better.
Using Bryan's kit or the inserts, you should be able to have it feel very smooth at 25# and that's where we want to be at with that reel.
25# will get you anything in the water.
Sal
I dont have bryans kit, i just got 7 #45c carbontex washers and ground flat washers from smoooooth drag and installed them and was hopeing for a bit more drag
Quote from: sidisdabest1 on March 13, 2016, 06:41:09 AM
I dont have bryans kit, i just got 7 #45c carbontex washers and ground flat washers from smoooooth drag and installed them and was hopeing for a bit more drag
I'm not aware of a 1+7 kit from Penn for that reel, so it has to be Bryan's kit. I believe smooth drag carries Bryan's Ultimate Kits.
I know what a #45c is, but what's do you mean by a flat ground washer?
Here is a pic with stock metal washers and the 45c
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160313_090421.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160313_090421.jpg.html)
this would never work
Here is a pic of what I think you have
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160313_090733.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160313_090733.jpg.html)
this is the Ultimate kit and it would work.
The height is of 6.3mm, vs14.3mm from the one above.
Your problem might be related to the spring washer or last metal washer above, it might be as simple as you needing to add another keyed washer on top, or replace the last thin washer with a stock washer.
Sal
It sounds like he bought 7 Penn HT-100 washers and a set of Dawn's metal washers Sal.
Quote from: Keta on March 13, 2016, 03:18:01 PM
It sounds like he bought 7 Penn HT-100 washers and a set of Dawn's metal washers Sal.
Lee, I'm still not sure what he has, that's why I've mentioned for him to post a pic. I know that the 45c carbon fiber washers are .5mm in thickness, but I was not aware that Dawn sells ground flat metal washers, I don't even know what they are :-\.
Do they ground down stock metal washers?
He created his own 7+1 drag stack. Dawn has metal washers that are placed on a flat grinding surface and are absolutely flat. He then mated them with Carbontex45C washers which was Sal said is 0.5 mm or 0.020" thick. SmoothDrag 's ground flat metal washers are about the same thickness as stock metal washers. I was playing with this set up but decided to cut thinner metal washers and use HT-100s instead. In a recent upgrade, I had to replace 2 of the HT-100 of the 7 In the stack with 45C washers because it just didn't fit well in the main gear. I haven't tested the drag numbers yet though. And cannot on the other because the reel doesn't have any line on it.
I also discovered that the last of the USA made reels had 11- hole side plates with 5-hole rings. Just thought I'd share this information just in case you are looking for reel parts and the last of the USA made 114H reels are very reasonably priced sixth the graphite frame and 5-hole rings.
Bryan is correct as to what i have done. Sorry i can not post any photos as i am not home for a few days.
Quote from: sidisdabest1 on March 13, 2016, 07:25:55 PM
Bryan is correct as to what i have done. Sorry i can not post any photos as i am not home for a few days.
I have found that drag washers that can compress will have slightly higher drag numbers that ones that don't compress. I don't understand why.
Oh ok, thats good to know bryan
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 14, 2016, 04:18:15 AM
Quote from: sidisdabest1 on March 13, 2016, 07:25:55 PM
Bryan is correct as to what i have done. Sorry i can not post any photos as i am not home for a few days.
I have found that drag washers that can compress will have slightly higher drag numbers that ones that don't compress. I don't understand why.
After learning this, I have revised several of my drag kits to use 0.5 mm thick drag washers and 0.76 mm, 1.0 mm, and/or 1.2 mm thick Carbontex washers when possible.