I'm re-doing one of my GrandDad's 1950's (circa) 115 Senators, and during tear-down I noticed that all 4 chrome rings had either a crack in them or had actually split at a screw-hole. There was a lot of corrosion on all of the shiny parts so I didn't think too much of the cracks/splits at the time, and just attributed them to weakened rings themselves.
However, after cleaning and during re-assembly I found that the new rings wouldn't fit because the side-plates had swollen. I had to spend quite a bit of time with a Dremel tool grinding down the surfaces on the plates to get the new rings to fit.
I can't see any other problems or issues with either the plates or the rings, and am just curious if this is something that may occur from age/use/abuse, or maybe if I did something during cleaning (WD40, then SimpleGreen, then vinegar). And if I should be aware of it possibly happening to other reels in the future. I've been thru a bunch of his other Penn stuff, and never noticed this before.
Thanks in advance.
Ron
Common problem with Penn side plates swelling over time due I believe to dampness affecting the mouldings. The older brass chromed rings often cracked at the screw holes and this was particularly common on the Mariner series of reels.
Today's replacement rings are stainless steel and should be ok. :-\
If you have access to a lathe or someone to machine the side plates it will be neater and save you a lot of work when fitting new rings.
G'day Ron,
Tom's spot on here - the swelling's a common problem.
It seems particularly so in NZ, perhaps due to the humidity.
A simple solution is to Dremel around the two stepped edges, as per the below photo.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_15_46_20768924.jpeg)
Good luck, Justin
Very nice Justin. You must be a calm and cool kind of guy...just like me ;).
WOW! Thanks. Super-fast response, and I'm sure all of it is exactly what happened. These reels have spent their entire lifetime either on a boat or moldering (is that the right word?) in a garage buried under a lot of other stuff from decades of hurricanes.
Water, go figure. And here I was worried that I might have done something to warp them. Whew!
Yup, that's exactly what I spent part of today doing, Justin. In fact, the only thing different is that my photo would have been of a black plate.
Thanks again, y'all.
it's simply the nature of the plastic that penn used at the time. they never knew that these side plates would swell 20 years later.
"...they never knew that these side plates would swell 20 years later."
Yeah, I never knew my sides would swell 20 years later either.
;D
you and me both, brother! ;D
Quote from: dogdad1 on June 25, 2012, 07:16:24 PM
"...they never knew that these side plates would swell 20 years later."
Yeah, I never knew my sides would swell 20 years later either. ;D
Quote from: alantani on June 25, 2012, 07:26:58 PM
you and me both, brother! ;D
;D ;D ;D
Heh-heh-heh.
In all seriousness, is there anything i should be especially aware of - or do - as we go forward in time? Will any more of my reels (just about the entire Senator & LongBeach line-ups from 1950's to 1970's) begin to exhibit this behavior? I'm thinking that the plates on a few of the Senators I've done recently did seem quite tight in the midriff (....ahhh, I mean side-plates) when I put them back together, but I just pushed a little harder and they fit. Should I go back and re-do them with the Dremel to give them a little more growing room for the future?
On a semi-related note, I've usually seen the reel described as a 115L (with the "L") which I think signifies it has an aluminum spool. I have the chrome spool, so does that mean it's a 115 (plain)? Any clue to the vintage?
Thanks in advance!
(Oops, on edit I should have said chrome/brass spool)
Ron
not sure. some have been a problem, others have not. it might be a function of how much time they spent out in the sun. :-\
Quote from: alantani on June 25, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
not sure. some have been a problem, others have not. it might be a function of how much time they spent out in the sun. :-\
Alan: I remember when I first joined on this site there were discussions about plates swelling, but I remember the swelling was as a result of the plates absorbing oil. I did not know that the sun would cause it to swell. Logic would seem to be otherwise, meaning that the sun would dry out the plastic and it would decrease in size. :-\ Dominick
Gee, thanks. First you tell me I'm getting too fat and then you insinuate I do nothing but lay around in the sun. And then I read I'll lose weight if I get a tan. Jeez, guys, make up your minds! 8)
Awesome forum, couldn't do without it.
Quote from: Pescachaser on June 26, 2012, 01:33:56 AM
Alan: I remember when I first joined on this site there were discussions about plates swelling, but I remember the swelling was as a result of the plates absorbing oil. Dominick
X2! Just ask Broadway on what happened to the plate on his 16/0.
Has anyone ever miked the plate diameter that was too snug,heated in oven at lowest heat setting then again miked for comparison size?
I think I heard of frozen plates and heated rings in the past to get them to fit, but never tried it myself.
I have used variations of that method on auto or equipment pieces difficult to remove, but what I was wondering is if heat,drying had been tried on the sideplates to shrink them
Used liquid nitrogen to remove camshaft dowel while cam in engine.
Buzz
Good thought, Sal. I considered freezing & heating the pieces too to refit them, but then started worrying about why/how they got that way in the first place. And that made me shy away from doing it because I wasn't sure if they'd just keep swelling over time and break my new rings or cause something else to bind or crack. In any case, I never thought to measure the before-and-after dimensions, but based on the amount of dust I created I'd say it was quite a bit.
I'd have to assume that all of the plastic (feels and smells like Bakelite, is it ?) must have grown a little, but as far as I can tell none of the smaller holes or spaces were affected enough %-wise to make any difference as I re-assemble the reel.
Did a little google research about phenolic plastics (bakelite amongst others).
Wikipedia states: Note that phenolic resin products are apt to swell slightly if they are used in areas which are perpetually damp. Varnishing the product helps to prevent this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite)
Also found an experiment made to Walther P38 pistol grips made from bakelite and their resistance to oil:
http://p-38.info/pdf/bakelite_experiment_plus_1_rev_1.pdf (http://p-38.info/pdf/bakelite_experiment_plus_1_rev_1.pdf)
It seems that the problem is water and dampness, not oils or lubricants. So drying them out and applying a varnish is maybe the answer. What kind of varnish you should use I have no idea though. Linseed oil maybe? Good penetration and hardens in sunlight to a really hard surface.
To my understanding Penn switched from bakelite a few years in the 80's but switched back again after a few years. But if they still are using bakelite or some other more modern phenolic or have switched to a totally different plastic I don't know.
Quote from: dogdad1 on June 25, 2012, 07:41:21 PM
On a semi-related note, I've usually seen the reel described as a 115L (with the "L") which I think signifies it has an aluminum spool. I have the chrome spool, so does that mean it's a 115 (plain)?
Thanks in advance!
You're right, Ron. When Penn started selling reels with the aluminum spools, they added the 'L' for "Lightweight" and the chrome/brass spools were marked 'M' for "Metal". Before L spools, the reels weren't marked with a letter. Somewhere in time, Penn marketed the 'SP' spools which are intended for wire line. At least that's how I understand it. (Broadway) Dom or Sal can probably shed some light on the SPs.
Rob
You are correct Rob, "SP" is for Special Senator.... wire line. If I remember correctly, I believe the earlier model Senators had the letter "L" on left hand models, it is now used for lightweight...aluminum spool.
Keep this link for future references:
http://www.stripers247.com/phpBB2/showthread.php?t=4435&highlight=trolling+wire
Sal