Hey guys,
Ok I have chatted with a few of you so far and thanks so much for the help.
I decided to start a thread logging my progress as I do my first service of my reels which include: 3 TLD 25's, 1 TLD 20, 1 Daiwa 900H and 2 Baitrunner Plus 6500's. (I dont think my sabiki pole & spinner rig needs any TSI 301 just yet) :)
I am going to (and already did) start with 1 of the 25's.
Right now I am waiting on parts from shimano, and a few from alan, namely the wrench and the drag grease. The only other things I am looking for is Reel-x and the Yamaha grease. Not horribly hard to find....but neither of these products are as mainstream as one might think like in wal-mart or even west marine. I called west marine and they did not have it and can't get it! wow.
Ok, so yesterday I disassembled one of the 25's up to the point where I need the wrench so i can't really go further.
1) Since these reels have an unknown service history, I am planning to completely clean them inside and out, probably way too much to the point that you guys would laugh and say.... "dude, what a freak". This leads me to my first question?: what do you use to clean the graphite housings? I was just planning to use soap and water and a brush, blast it down with the hose outside and then compressed air to get the water off.
so is this BEST MOST EFFECTIVE and EASIEST way to do this? Also is there anything I SHOULD NOT use?
2) I did notice some very minor corrosion, (green) like on the click spring (#101) and other parts like the lever shaft body (#11) etc... should i clean it first? (with what?) or just grease it? (for the record, i tried wd40 and clr...and accidentally left it in the clr and it turned BLACK) the corrosion was gone though :) So basically the question is, how do you deal with corrosion?
very strange.
ok so the click spring started out brass colored, left in clr overnight and now its black color, dried it off now its turning powdery white & green. Interesting.
Any ideas of how to change it back? I tried vinegar, didn't work. When I brush it with a metal brush it does turn back, but i fear i am removing too much brass. any ideas?
G'day lyt,
Everyone's got their own preferred processes, but I tend to use white spirit for all cleaning duties.
Bronze alloy parts, such as your click spring, get a once over with a brass wire brush.
Salt corrosion on external parts such as posts etc can be dissolved with a (roughly) 70:30 vinegar/water mix.
I try to avoid using anything too toxic (such as CLR) - after a thousand-odd reels, one has to start thinking about cumulative exposure...
That said, I find carb cleaner essential.
RE: Your click spring, you may need to neutralise any remaining acid on the metal with some Simple Green (or bicarbonate of soda). Once that's done, give it a light coat of grease and reinstall - it'll be fine.
Hope that's of some assistance - let us know how you get on.
Good luck, Justin
Thanks red,
what would white spirit be called here in the US?
Lighter fluid or charcoal starter.
Also known as mineral spirits.
It's a low irritant, with relatively low flammability...
I'm very cautious with anything more flammable (such as lighter fluid, turps, gas etc), as they tend to have significant vapour (ie inhalation) and fire risk.
Once again, it's a matter of cumulative exposure to either.
In a vapour-rich environment, even the electric motor on a Dremel or drill could kick things off...
Everyone's got their own approach though.
Cheers, Justin
I use Dawn on the Graphite Side Plates. I was using Greased Lightning a household degreaser & found it to strong for my Newell's. It was taking the Black off the Newell name on the reels. If it is metal I use Break Cleaner. I put about an inch in a jar with a top & drop in the parts & swirl it around. Use the Alan's old Tooth Brush if needed & blow dry.
excellent, i have some spirits....
ok... i am liking the dawn/detergent idea....just dish detergent on the frame with a brush.....
as for the spirits.... it would be better than toxic stuff. I get headaches quite easily from strong toxic solutions.
I am thinking a nice soft brush, dawn, warm water, and then a hose off will do the trick for the sides.... and the white spirit for the small parts, I hope it does not mess with the o-ring on that lever shaft body, i think i need to replace it anyway im not sure how old it is....
G'day lyt,
Charcoal fluid has a lower flash point than lighter fluid, while mineral spirits is slightly higher.
Charcoal fluid also burns longer.
It's your call of course, but the latter two are the safer options.
Cheers, Justin
thanks justin,
ok made some progress today,
1) Stripped everything (literally) even e-rings and every single metal part that could be removed from the graphite. (yes this is where you [and even I] realize I have serious OCD issues :) )
2) I had to make something to remove the bearing for the drag lever. I figured I needed something to pry it out gently, so I decided on a slightly modified paint can opener. It worked GREAT. the only thing was that i had to file it down to be sharper to get between the bearing and the housing and then kinda rock back and forth, came out easily.
3) the good news is that the bearing although it has some crud on the outside....still had some grey/beige grease inside and one side was already opened (not sure it they come like that or not).
4) Warm water and dish soap and a stiff brush works great to clean the graphite.... the were a few spots i used some thing stronger (like carb cleaner on a rag) but for the most part everything looks like it did came from the factory, save the minor scratches and lettering ever so slightly worn.
5) the question i have is....is there any danger if I leave the metal parts in carb cleaner overnight?
Quote...is there any danger if I leave the metal parts in carb cleaner overnight?
I wouldn't.
While it won't damage steel, alloy parts (such as the lever quadrant) could be etched or discoloured by long exposure to the strong acid in carb cleaner.
If you're trying to breakdown grease residue etc, better to just wash 'em in white spirit/lighter fluid/TSI321/Simple Green/WD40/acetone - there are plenty of better options.
If you're trying to remove rust or the green salt corrosion, a soak in vinegar and water will sort it out.
Good luck, Justin
PS Some discussion on degreasing etc here, if it helps: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1219.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1219.0)
gotcha, agreed, i left the lever shaft body in the carb cleaner and the o ring turned into godzilla.... twice it size.... looks like i am going to be ordering another ring!
I do want to know what I can "leave" the parts in for a few days.... especially as a rookie, this process is taking me longer than a seasoned veteran, and sometimes i am waiting on parts etc. It's alot easier to just leave the parts soaking in something than removing them just to sit on the table in the garage in the florida humidity to get corroded again :)
once i get the hang of it..... I am sure i will just clean and rinse and re-assemble.
o BTW the brass brush turned my click spring to like new. I'll never use anything else.
I use brake cleaner on the bearings, and not much else. Dawn and hot water do most of the cleaning and I use Barkeeper's Friend on corrosion. Barkeeper's Friend is a very mild abrasive that contains oxalic acid and is sold in most grocery stores around here (TX). Boaters love it. It's usually found with the other scouring powders like Comet. I buy lots of small brass brushes from Harbour Freight.
Quotethe o ring turned into godzilla... twice it size....
That'll happen ;) ;D
Acetone will do the same (something I'd overlooked in another thread).
Re: soaking, it depends on what you're trying to achieve.
Metal/chrome parts can be soaked in a vinegar/water mix to break down salt build up/corrosion.
An hour or two usually does the trick - too long and it'll etch the surface.
Soft alloys can be badly damaged by soaking in vinegar, so be prudent.
Frozen/corroded metal parts can be soaked in Albert's automatic transmission fluid and acetone mix.
For anything else, just wipe off as much grease/crud as you can, then attack it with an old toothbrush and some white spirit/Simple Green/Inox/Dawn/WD40/Safety Clean etc.
Hope that helps.
Good luck, Justin
All of my copper/brass parts get a bath in distilled vinegar and then in simple green to neutrolize, all chromed parts go straight in a simple green bath. It has been working out for me.
well noted.
ok still waiting on shimano to deliver the galaxy. :( anyway, all the info is much appreciated.
BTW, I dont know what i did before Harbor Freight. It is the only tool store i go to now....(except for certain items) If they were to close, I might just have to end it all :o
I can literally spend 3 hours there drooling and buy WAY too many things I don't need and will never use.
ok wrench and grease arrived, just need some reelx. really wish i could get it locally in S. FL .... cant seem to find it anywhere....
ready to finish the reel!
ok.... finally got a chance to get back into things.....
reelx, drag washers and handles have arrived courtesy of Alan. Alan was kind enough, 4 hours before he left for Australia, to CALL me and confirm the gear. who has customer service like that? crazy. he even went to the tackle shop to get my reelx.... dude... the next blue label is on me :)
Anyway, 4 handles and 4 drag washers aren't cheap, but for what I paid for the whole kit....I figure I will keep these for a while...and when they can handle 18-20 lbs of drag, I will feel better about letting these reels be the work horses on the boat....and I wont be worried about scratching my pretty gold reels. It's just me, I like perfectly working older equipment, I don't feel ripped off and I don't have to be so careful. ok moving on....
now that I have everything I opened the ziplock bags where i had previously dis-assembled the reel and man.... first time doing this it was so much fun having no idea how to put it back together:). pictures on here are great and i have the diagram so i have been slowly cleaning and greasing each part. if you have read the whole post you guys know i was planning to do not only a service but a FULL cleaning and service of these 4 reels.
prying out the shields on the bearings was so much fun, finally figured out that a razor knife and then a corkscrew worked. I wish I had had a dental probe....that probably would have been the best.
the only fear I have is the marine grease. it is not yamaha, but it is MARINE grease for trailers etc. I am assuming it will work fine.
i should have it back together exactly like the tutorial on the tld 25/20 shortly. I will have to buy a scale, theold rusty ones i have may not read correctly.
Anyway, Alan, thanks a ton..... and remember....... I always thought you were a swell guy, no matter what they say about you!
Quote from: lyt on July 21, 2012, 01:24:11 AM
the only fear I have is the marine grease. it is not yamaha, but it is MARINE grease for trailers etc. I am assuming it will work fine.
Anyway, Alan, thanks a ton..... and remember....... I always thought you were a swell guy, no matter what they say about you!
LYT: The marine grease for trailers is too sticky. There is a big difference. It will work but you should wait until you get Yamaha Marine grease. Oh yeah, we will stop talking about Alan and take your word for it. ;D Dominick
ok so should i just buy a 14 oz yamaha cartridge?
where can i find it locally? in South Florida
lyt,
If you think you have OCD now; dont apply that grease you have now and later use the Yamaha marine grease. If you do, you'll know you have OCD for you will redo all reels without the Yamaha grease. I used non-yamaha grease on about 3 reels, then I got some Yamaha grease and felt better after RE-SERVICING the reels with ALL the "fully qualified" lubricants (TSI, Yamaha, Cals, CorrosionX). I use corrosionX on handle shafts etc (non spool related). The first time I applied the TSI or Yamaha products the difference was immediate.
Patience is the key,
Leo
yeah i did find the yamalube....
stuff is great....
ok so heres the good news...
I FULLY ASSEMBLED my first TLD 25.
the bad news:
i am having a problem with the freespool. I followed everything exactly, and I think I did it correctly, but when i have the drag at higher settings.... it wont stay in freespool.
is this a thickness issue?
ok guys..... measured 4.60mm
now what?
ok... had to take a short break from repairing..... but back now....
OK so got 3 down.... since the parts arrived from alan. found some Yama grease at a marine shop......
the 1st one had a BENT shaft. (imagine that being your first reel you have ever attempted to repair, and wondering like "what the heck is going on".) thanks to the forum guys here...i did manage to diagnose it.....it took a while ....but we finally got it. so for those of you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BETTER to do..... you can read the bent shaft story here : http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4918.0
the 2nd one " WINNING" MAJOR freespool
the 3rd one TLD20 does not freespool as well as i would like..... i think all these reels were serviced at some point and whoever put them back together was not so clever or was lazy or just plain did not know how to do it or mixed up parts....because i find washers missing, wrong springs, etc..... i have to consult the diagrams to troubleshoot.
the 4th one i am about to start which is the last TLD 25.
Good job, keep up the good work!!!!
For those Bearing shields, try a fishing hook!!!
Very sharp points and strong..
I am leaning toward some larger Circle hooks (from Drop Shot hooks to 5/0 circle hooks), they work pretty good...
ok waiting on parts for the last tld25
now on to tackling the MONSTER BIG DADDY......the Daiwa Sealine 900H.
Out of all the reels I bought as a package deal.....this is the worst "looking" reel....it has the most visible corrosion. all the others have none really.
I got the kit from alan.... and i just disassembled.... wow man....its almost as complicated as a spinner!
i have a BUCKET full of dis-assembled parts, and it's easy to get a hernia from lifting it!.....
So I need a diagram....although i did take pics.....
http://daiwa.com/PartsDiagram/PartsDiagram/900H.pdf
thanks....
ok parts came in.... for the last TLD25 DOH..... shimano forgot the 202 spring I ordered....o well....
Here is the ? : so I DO have a spring but it is twice as long as the others i saw in the other reels.....I do not think it is OEM but it was in the reel and the guys at shimano didn't seem to think it would make a difference all that much.....so what say ye? Personally I like to have ALL OEM parts in my devices (meaning internally machined parts integral for the function of the reel .....I dont care about aftermarket accessory parts like handles etc.).
ALSO, I was in the middle of the reassembly and find out that the 58 and 47 washers are nowhere to be found......
I am beginning to think that it was a reel hack (pun intended) who serviced this before... I remember a plastic washer falling out when i disassembled this one.... I didn't know at the time, but now i am realizing that whoever serviced it, used 1 plastic washer in place of # 58 and #47. *sigh* looks like i have to wait AGAIN!
as for big daddy..... what a beast....i may use an entire tub of degreaser on it....it's so nasty and dirty black grease in there.
also....mine has a HUGE crank handle....like the 910 but i was told it was a 900H.... its all parts now....i cant really tell.... i suppose when i put it back together i will see
OK!
we are getting seriously close to getting all these reels done!
i need 2 small washers for the tld25....then thats done....
and I need a few small parts that were missing from the 900H and we are finito!
the 900h looks like it will be SUCH a nice reel when it's done..... It took me 3 hours to fully clean corrosion off..... the side rings that go on the side I could not even get off....i had to use my bearing tool that i made to pry them off like a bearing, rocking back and forth..... amazingly ALL the corrosion came off, I was scared that it had eaten into the reel....but it didn't Here is before photo.....
(http://i.imgur.com/FJctL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/LhQur.jpg)
.....so hopefully we can see how well it is once I am finished.....and I do plan to destroy a few big tuna with it.....that is if I can find them! Hua! thanks to all you guys who helped!
Good going lyt - you'll be casting around for another project before you know it ;) ;D
If you haven't got it already, I thoroughly recommend the five-stack cf and metal washer conversion, here: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=153.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=153.0)
I did one for a workmate recently and it's a top-notch upgrade.
Good luck, Justin
yes actually i DID that upgrade! I ordered it from alan and sadly....one nubless metal washer was missing....I'm sure alan got the PM I sent.....
once it arrives....I can fully put it back together..... you guys will NOT even recognize it! I am shocked at how nice it came out..... pics coming as soon a the mailman delivers!
I love the idea that i could tear one of these down on the boat if necessary now! It's funny, you know, 1 month ago I had NEVER done a reel service, now literally...thanks to the forum, I feel like I could disassemble ANY reel and at least understand whats going on....and fix it, I already know I am going to be repairing my friends reels! ??? not sure if I like that :) but secretly....I think I do! Just don't tell 'em.....
i only send out four metal washers now. the spacing is better if you use one of the original metal washers on top.
gotcha! which one do i put on top? being this tall, i guess it does not need the nubs....
ok.....
ok so for the complete drag stack, which includes:....
4 metal washers you sent
5large+1small drag washers
1 of the OEM metal washer (the thinnest one w/ no nubs)
I get 13.20mm is this ok? on your tutorial it says 12.22mm
i am assuming you do include the small washer in the stack.....right?
there should be one medium slotted metal washer, one medium keyed metal washer and one super thick keyed metal washer. i think either keyed metal washer will work. can you let us know? thanks! alan
not bad eh?
i havn't done the spool yet..... im waiting for the parts..... and to reline it.....
(http://i.imgur.com/i2SwS.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/Chmvl.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/Pid83.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/OJ2ec.jpg?1)
Nice work lyt.
Yeah its too bad the spool under the line is completely shot.....but only 27 from Daiwa.... not too bad....
soon to be finished..... just a few more parts.....
Ok still waiting on the spool, but for the record (since this is a log of my progress) the #4 TLD 25 is the absolute best. Over 1 minute of freespool, by HAND. (no, i did not use a lawnmower crank pull stroke.) ;D
So I do find it odd that all reels were in pretty much the same condition, but when fully serviced, i get varying results--all reels have about the same amount of line:
2 TLD 25's perfect-- over 1 minute
1 TLD 25 somewhat ok 10-15 seconds
1 TLD 20 ok at 25-30 secs
any ideas? perhaps the housings are warped? I don't hear any rubbing, though.
I do still suppose these #'s are good, perhaps it's only bad if its under 5 seconds.....
The other issue I was thinking about is the fact that freespool (in some ways) doesn't really matter on these reels, ....perhaps on a spinner and for casting i can see why it matters... but not here.
maybe try cleaning out the bearings again, then see how the bare spool spins.
yeah that's what I was thinking....
interestingly this #4 TLD is actually the #1 I started working on, which was indeed the "worst" of the TLD's. Perhaps it was my greenness, or, perhaps it was just that this particular reels was in the poorest condition.
Before I knew that the main problem was the twisted/bent shaft, I had torn this reel down about 8-10 times trying to figure it out..... perhaps something went wrong somewhere down the line in my re-assembly. Also, I did end up having to ream out the hole in the graphite. I think I did an exacting job, but I also thought that this is not really the cause of lack of freespool, it has to be bearing related.
I just realized that on these bearings I did not use my "trick" that I figured out as I was trying to find a way to clean out these bearings .....(ok it's probably common knowledge to the veterans here) but it was new to me.
Basically, I realized that I was using WAY TOO MUCH carb cleaner per bearing to try to get them clean. So I improvised and made a patent pending device :)
I put a tapered nail punch sticking straight up in the grip of an adjustable wrench in the middle of a large cardboard box (which I have in excess). The opened bearing slid down and seated on the tapered punch nicely. Then I could spray the carb cleaner thru the tube and get that bearing spinning nicely WHILE it was cleaning. The inertial force spins out all the junk quickly and I know for sure that all parts of the bearing are clean. The box I actually doubled up for safety sake on my porch tile and I also threw some of my old paper towel rags in and around the inside the box so that it would not soak through.
I ended up using minimal carb cleaner to clean the bearings. Now, it's not that I can't afford carb cleaner :) It's just that I felt it was such a waste to use so much and still not be 100% sure it was squeaky clean. This way I KNOW it's clean!
Like I said, I am sure this is an old trick, but I take this silly pleasure in finding big time saving shortcuts to make things easier. LOL ...now that i think of it, I built an entire business on that principal!
anyway
The last thing is waiting for the spool on the daiwa 900h. After that, the only thing left is to either service the 2 6500 plus baitrunners..... or just throw them to Davy Jones. JK of course :)
I like the bearing holder/pin punch idea. It's not a good idea to spin bearings with air or in this case aerosol carb cleaner.
Here are a few questions as food for thought:
How much lube in each bearing? I've pretty much found that if I use more the 2 drops of oil (ReelX, CorrosionX, etc.) the freespool time is measurably slower.
Have you looked at the spool while it's turning to see if it's not true?
Do the bearings feel crunchy or sloppy?
If it was torn down before you got it maybe Bubba messed up / mixed up the bearings?
Is there a spool bearing sleeve that's too long or damaged?
Keep plugging away, you'll get it right. It may just take more time (and more money). :-\
Quote from: Keta on September 04, 2012, 01:19:07 PM
I like the bearing holder/pin punch idea. It's not a good idea to spin bearings with air or in this case aerosol carb cleaner.
tell me..... I like to know..... what is the reason not to spin them with carb cleaner? I can understand not using air, due to the water in the line.... but why not carb cleaner...?
the only thing i can think of is the gunk in the bearing will scratch possibly when spun?.....
i hope it's ok to spin it with carb cleaner. i do that all the time. figured it would be ok because it was now wet. when the bearings are dry, i will not overspin them. screwed up several like that. :-\
Quote from: alantani on August 27, 2012, 04:14:57 PM
there should be one medium slotted metal washer, one medium keyed metal washer and one super thick keyed metal washer. i think either keyed metal washer will work. can you let us know? thanks! alan
sry alan....forgot to link to the answer on this one.... http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=225.30 I noticed it as i was rereading
yes .....the stack is fine.... however i havn't tested it......can't really till the spool gets here. it did measure differently.... but from my hand testing....it seems amazingly stronger.
Quote from: norcal pescador on September 04, 2012, 02:02:57 PM
Here are a few questions as food for thought:
How much lube in each bearing? I've pretty much found that if I use more the 2 drops of oil (ReelX, CorrosionX, etc.) the freespool time is measurably slower.
Have you looked at the spool while it's turning to see if it's not true?
Do the bearings feel crunchy or sloppy?
If it was torn down before you got it maybe Bubba messed up / mixed up the bearings?
Is there a spool bearing sleeve that's too long or damaged?
Keep plugging away, you'll get it right. It may just take more time (and more money). :-\
I am realizing that i will have to tear it down again to diagnose.... but if I don't find anything, I will just put it down to a "not so perfect" bearing.
The reel still works fine..... just wont be winning any casting tournaments with it. :)
BTW I just found out the hard way..... NEVER EVER EVER leave a corroded rod guide sitting in vinegar. It ate thru the rod.
Sometimes I am such an idiot :P ..... never realized how powerful vinegar can be.
bummer. didn't know that...... :-\
It happens to the best of us ;)
Quote from: lyt on September 11, 2012, 12:43:46 AM
NEVER EVER EVER leave a corroded rod guide sitting in vinegar. It ate thru the rod.
Graphite rod?
(http://i.imgur.com/5AlzC.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/yDfSF.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/h9lJG.jpg?1)
you can see where it kinda "hollowed" out where the brass enters the rod.
not sure if it is graphite.... basically it is a regular rod....and i had some SERIOUS corrosion on the guides....so i made a shallow cup of vinegar and laid the rod in there.... for about 2 hours.... guide facing down to soak. Well it was a bad idea.... i NEVER thought it would eat the "glue" wrap used to hold the guide.....
now that i think of it.....there is an outside chance that the hollowing was already there, having not really done an incredibly thorough examination... but i am pretty sure the vinegar made it worse and "ate" a bit of it away.... the rod guides were in pretty bad shape.... i had to do something!
o well....you live and learn.
Are you sure the vinegar actually damaged the rod?
Cut the guide and wrapping off,clean the rod locally and check blank for damage.
Bend the blank and see if it breaks under normal load.
Cannot believe that vinegar would damage the blank.
You are looking at thread windings that hold the guide to the rod.
Older rods used varnish instead of epoxy on the rod windings. I doubt the blank is damaged from that
blank looks okay. Looks like the varnish/guide wrap. You should be okay. the blanks scrim are usually bonded with a high temperature/pressure flexible epoxy.
not worried about the blank..... it was the wrappings....
fair enough, and like i said in my previous post, there is room for my own error here (obviously). There are several scenarios I can think of:
1) Vinegar somehow reacted with something and caused damage
2) Vinegar only cleaned out the corrosion that was filling (or gave the appearance of filling) the already made holes/damage
3) The rod wraps were already in bad shape and I just didn't notice, but when I took them out of the vinegar I really noticed it.
here are some other facts:
A) I only left each guide in for 1-2 hours and then used a brass brush to get corrosion off.
B) The only guides that were affected were the last three but not the tip (since it is a full metal tip type)
C) Other guides were in the solution, but the rod didn't get any vinegar on it since my shallow cup was too shallow for the larger guides neared the reel.
D) I can move the "damaged" guides slightly left to right
E) I had absolutely no idea vinegar would do this....that's why I had no reservation about it.