Which Reels?
This is obviously a too simple question to answer, so a little background. Surf fishing here in Namibia is generally a distance game, and the most common reels are multipliers, with brands like Shimano and Diawa providing the main stay, however both manufacturers design their reels for the much larger world market where the models that we use are primarily designed for boat fishing – as we need reels with reasonable capacity for the larger diameter lines that we cast – 30-40lbs.
So, ideally we are looking for reels that really (forgive the pun) do spin, yet with the two previously mentioned manufacturers, they tend to build their reels with quite small diameter bearings, and here lies part of the problem – we are forever changing them, as they do not last any realistic time period – 6 months of reasonable fishing, and the bearings are useless.
One of the other issues, is that at times we do fish for quite large sharks, and need drags with some real power and larger capacity – as well as the previously mentioned casting ability. Oh, one last thing, we wade in the sea, and cast from sand banks, and fight the fish with the reel mostly submerged in the salt water.
So, back to the original question – which reels? Any suggestions would help.
Cheers from sunny Africa
you mean, like here?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/7/1_26_09_12_7_44_12.gif)
so, to answer your question, a reel like the tld star 15/30 or 20/40 might serve you well. bushing instead of bearings might even work better. take a look!
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17.0
Hi Alan,
Yes, that is where we are, and as you view the map, the entire coastline & 100 miles or more inland is desert - the Skeleton Coast.
The reels that you mention are just too small in capacity even for general fishing, though they are used on occasions by folks here - quite robust, but lack the spin speed for distances above 150 metres, and certainly not enough capacity for shark.
Mostly folks are using Saltist & Saltiga 40 & 50 or Trinidads 20 through to 50. We personally have had good work from the new FinNor OHC 20 & 30, as well as Avet MXL & LX. The Magnet version is just too strong to get big distance, though we have started to shave some of the magnet to get the LX 'under control', with the Avet we get distances approaching 200 metres, though the FinNor is not quite up to that sort of spin speed and distance.
Being primarily rod builders and designers, getting th rods to perform is not difficult, getting reels now to match the power/distance potential of the rods is becoming a problem.
Cheers from sunny Africa.
jeri
Jeri,
After reading your statement about the reel being partially submerged the first thing to come to mind was a graphite body. Then you mentioned you need some good spool speed and that your using Salstist/Saltiga's and Toriums both in the 20-50 class, then the need for 40#.
What instantly came to mind was the Daiwa Sealine-X 50SHV. it holds 310yds of 40#, all graphite body, only 3 BB's, and excellent free spool that may meet your spool speeds. Upgrade the drags to Carbon Fiber and the AT service to the reel initially and from the sound of the type of CONTAMINATION the reel is being exposed to; service the reel after every fishing trip or suffer bearing failure.
Ive serviced two of these reels in the past two weeks and the drags are your typical massive Daiwa Sealine drags and you can get outstanding free spool w/TSI 301 oil. Or, if you service your reels after every trip you can get even better spool speed using "Xtreme Reel +" oil.
Good fishing,
Leo
Hi Leo,
Thanks for your comments, 'Grandwaves' were a chosen reel after the older SL50SH, but they both have problems in our shark fishing, as they are prone to twisting in the frame, when subjected to really heavy loads – something about graphite bodies, which is why the majority of folks have switched over to cast aluminium bodied reels.
I suppose in part I am looking for something with the precision and free spool of an Avet, but a little more robust internally – which is why the Diawa and Shimano have been long time favourites, and perhaps why we are finding the FinNor to be better than those favourites – very robust build, but just need more spool speed.
FinNors start life with carbon drag washers, and the bearings are very large, which makes them much more durable in our environment – might have to start looking at faster bearings for these – though from the specs from the importer, they already have ABEC 5. We do already change out the grease for high speed oils, usually 'Hot Sauce' or a blend of our own which is equally fast.
Have looked at the more recent release of Diawa BG, which was brought out to mimic the FinNor, and found problems with the strength of the pinion gear lugs that engage the spool – prone to sheering off. Perhaps someone has been using the new Saltiga lever drag reels for casting, but after seeing what is happening with the current Diawa products, am currently wary of their products and not happy with their use of very small spool bearings. Even Diawa recognise they have a precision problem with some models, as their web site states that they have their European Tournament casting models made in Japan, not Vietnam.
I accept that hear in southern Africa, we have a fairly unique fishing situation, as we are prone to casting very large baits from the shore, and at times using quite heavy gear for surf fishing, as well as needing huge line capacity. We might well end up looking at the 'best of a poor bunch', and then using upgrade kits to get them fully up to the spec that we are looking for.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Hi LTM,
We fish similar conditions and use the same reels. The Grandwaves just don't last, drag is not great and they in reality also don't cast much further, if at all. Jeri, have you tried using Reel X on your bearings and opening your spool bearings? I wade a lot to and mainly use Toriums and my bearings last longer than 6 months. Similar a friend has a Fin nNor and we opened his spool bearings and dosed them with Reel X and it has been going really well since then. They are very nice casting reels.
Quote from: Jeri on September 27, 2012, 03:05:50 PM
Hi Leo,
Thanks for your comments, 'Grandwaves' were a chosen reel after the older SL50SH, but they both have problems in our shark fishing, as they are prone to twisting in the frame, when subjected to really heavy loads – something about graphite bodies, which is why the majority of folks have switched over to cast aluminium bodied reels.
I suppose in part I am looking for something with the precision and free spool of an Avet, but a little more robust internally – which is why the Diawa and Shimano have been long time favourites, and perhaps why we are finding the FinNor to be better than those favourites – very robust build, but just need more spool speed.
FinNors start life with carbon drag washers, and the bearings are very large, which makes them much more durable in our environment – might have to start looking at faster bearings for these – though from the specs from the importer, they already have ABEC 5. We do already change out the grease for high speed oils, usually 'Hot Sauce' or a blend of our own which is equally fast.
Have looked at the more recent release of Diawa BG, which was brought out to mimic the FinNor, and found problems with the strength of the pinion gear lugs that engage the spool – prone to sheering off. Perhaps someone has been using the new Saltiga lever drag reels for casting, but after seeing what is happening with the current Diawa products, am currently wary of their products and not happy with their use of very small spool bearings. Even Diawa recognise they have a precision problem with some models, as their web site states that they have their European Tournament casting models made in Japan, not Vietnam.
I accept that hear in southern Africa, we have a fairly unique fishing situation, as we are prone to casting very large baits from the shore, and at times using quite heavy gear for surf fishing, as well as needing huge line capacity. We might well end up looking at the 'best of a poor bunch', and then using upgrade kits to get them fully up to the spec that we are looking for.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri,
You should look at the Penn Fathom or Torque but the Torque line capacity is not great with the frame and spool so close together leader knots jam. Unfortunately the Fathom bearings are small but it is a magnificent casting reel. Time will tell how robust they are. Have you looked at the Trini A? Again same problem with spool and frame gap as the torque and you hate to open the entire darn reel to get to the spool bearings
Jeri,
I do some surf fishing in Southern California and would like to know what rods you are using, how big are the baits, and how much weight are you using. I use various 9' to 11' rods with a Penn Squall, Penn 970, and Penn 980 and 5 oz of weight and a whole squid.
I can only cast 80 yards or so and keep trying different rods and reels to get me over that 100 yard mark.
John
http://www.excalibur-tackle.com/rods.htm#Longsword
http://www.cds-angling.co.za/rods%20gallery%201.html
http://www.gremlinsfishing.co.za/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=2&Itemid=2
http://www.basilmanning.co.za/news/news/assassin-rods.html
See links for the rods we use, these are all custom shops, a lot of them use South African made Blue Marlin blanks or imported Asian blanks or European blanks, but those are expensive
Thanks for the information.
John
penn senators......
Jeri & Capefish,
Forgot about the torque factor from shark's. My next suggestion would be a custom Senator or (havent tried them) Jarvance type of 4/0. I understand that thats some if not the most abundant fishery in the world on that coast line. Ive handled some So African rods and they are highly prizes at a couple of pro shops that I favor.
As you stated you guys dont have a rod problem for you started making some. It seems to me that your local market (and probably the world) is waiting for someone in Southern Africa to start making this "submersible/easy maintenance/strong/good casting reel. The guys at Accurate and Pro Gear were laid-off aerospace machinist and look what they created. In the extreme conditions you speak of; simplicity of design (ala Penn 113) and strength vs complicated, multi ball bearings, etc. etc is what you (and me) are looking for with solutions for your environmental factors (silicon drag seals, large o-rings, etc., etc.). You dont have to reinvent the wheel, use from the proven concepts/resources that are available. You guys CAN do this.
Leo
Hi John 244,
Basically we cast anything from 4oz right up to rods casting combined bait & sinker of over 20oz! That is not our problem, as being a custom rod builder and designer, getting blanks built to various specifications is not that difficult, getting the reels to work with them is the issue - hence this thread. Most of our serious distance casting rods are built to 13 or 14' long, and best are one piece, as all joints introduce a flat spot, and hinder serious power delivery. A local anomoly is that we use the rods ina reel down position, just 8" up from the butt - makes for very powerful delivery.
I am actually the owner of Excalibur Tackle, so feel free to visit our web site, and perhaps contact me privately about rods - we have actually built a number of rather specialist rods for American and Canadian clients - so your rgion is not totally unknown to us.
However, the biggest secret to casting distance is style, and I can do nothing but recommend that you get a copy of John Holden's long Distance Casting 2 - it is a CD-ROM, that requires a good old fashioned read followed by hours of practice, but we regard it as a 'bible' for castind.
The other web sites of RSA rod builders are basically 'factory custom', and they do use either Blue Marlin blanks or Asian, and suffer the problems with the Asian examples.
Cheers form Africa by night
The senators have been tried here for years and you won't see one on a beach here anymore except maybe on the odd kite rig, there's a reason for it. Jeri do they still get used in Namibia? Last time I was there, not. They are heavy and slow and then you need all those aftermarket spares required - we can't get hold of any at a vaguely reasonable price. I used to have a 113 and lets just say things got a lot easier when I swopped it for a SL50SH and now the metal reels are even better. Jeri said they are looking at close to 200m casts, that's what people are looking for from a big reel with a powerful drag and must be able to handle dunking. The metal Shimanos and Daiwas perform much better. Replacing spool bearings once or twice a year is maybe not such a tiresome exercise? :-\ :) The pro gears do look very good...now they not made anymore.....
hi capefish
can you describe how you rig up.(photo?)
being from SA i presume you use the breakaway method.
cheers
Hi Wallace
What do you mean about 'rig up'??
Cheers
Jeri
hi jeri.
hook,line,sinker, bait,swivel, solid ring
what you cast into the water.
cheers
How about a Penn 113HN (Baja Special)? It is a narrow 4/0 and casts like crazy but if you spectra back it and run long topshots it may work for you. Run something like 200-300 yards of 50 or 60 lb spectra backing with mono on top. Or is any spectra a no no if the sharks reach a reef?
I'm not sure a larger bearing will solve the issues you have. No matter its size you will have problems with them if their not matained extra well for the type of fishing you do and the use/abuse of dunking your reels in the saltwater a few times every trip out.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on September 29, 2012, 06:40:29 AM
How about a Penn 113HN (Baja Special)? It is a narrow 4/0 and casts like crazy but if you spectra back it and run long topshots it may work for you. Run something like 200-300 yards of 50 or 60 lb spectra backing with mono on top. Or is any spectra a no no if the sharks reach a reef?
I'm not sure a larger bearing will solve the issues you have. No matter its size you will have problems with them if their not matained extra well for the type of fishing you do and the use/abuse of dunking your reels in the saltwater a few times every trip out.
Hi SoCalAngler,
The problem with the like of all the Penn Snetor family is getting sufficient thumb pressure on the top of the spool when making the cast. The problem in surf casting is stopping the spool from slipping while you 'build' the cast, especially as some of the bait & weight combinations are in excess of 20oz!!!
Hence the need for lower height spools, the original query was more to find out if anyone had a solved a similar problem with fishing somewhere else inthe world. At the moment we are stuck with the likes of Diawa Saltiga and Saltists, and Shimano Trinidads, and Avet LX series. We back them all wuith braid and top shot 300m of mono for casting ease. We will just have to keep on maintaining and looking seriously at up grading bearings that have lowest inertia start up conditions.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Hi Wallace,
Attached is a photo of a sketch that we used in a magazine article, for general fishing in Namibia, it was aimed more towards folks targeting edible species, though the 'Pulley Rig' can be upgraded to wire on the hook length, and we use that for some of the smaller shark species that we target on occasions.
The distance rig is our personal favoured rig, as it stops a lot of the power loss 'in flight' with the bait spinning around. It works by holding the bait behind the sinker, and probably gains between 5-10 metres extra distance – it also calms down the early part of the sinker & bait flight, and avoids an unbalanced cast – which is a fault that is usually responsible for that huge crow's nest at about 50 metres or less
Big sharks, basically Copper Sharks are targeted with a sliding sinker rig above 175lb crimped cable with 2 hooks, one fixed and one as a slider. Basically the bottom hook is baited and the bait wrapped to the hook and wire with elasticated bait cotton, then the top hook is just snicked into the top of the bait. We still use the distance rig clips, but bigger, so that the huge baits are following the sinker, and not flapping around imitating a helicopter blade!!
The secret of the bait clips is to have the sinker line length longer than the hook length, and such that when it is rigged ready to cast, there is slack line in the sinker leg, and the hook leg is tight – effectively supporting the sinker. On hitting the water, the tension in the hook leg is removed, and the hook falls off the bait clip, and the sinker and bait are now separate. The biggest problem with the clipped bait system, is that unless the bait is very securely tied to the hook, it will ride up the hook line with the power of the casts that we are putting in. Like all these advances, it is a case of a lot of small things all working together to get a significant improvement.
[(//)
Hope this all helps.
Cheers from sunny Africa.
Hi Wallace,
Pulling hair out, with trying to post a picture, send me an email, and I will forward the rig picture to you direct.
jeri@excalibur-tackle.com
Cheers
Jeri
Jeri,
Hopefully one of the moderators will see this and you can send them the picture to post for you. Im dying to see how you rig these.
Leo
thanks jeri,
we learnt this method many years ago off the sth africans.
helped me win a few tournments.
for the beach fishing you only need to get your bait
into 7ft of water to be able to send it out 100's of meters.
i have sent my baits out over 300m no trouble at all
using only 4oz sinker.
ill try and post a photo of my method.
cheers
QuoteHopefully one of the moderators will see this and you can send them the picture to post for you.
PM sent...
thanks justin
From Jeri:
thanks jeri.
there are a few versions,same princepal.
From Wallace:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_08_08_17_1_50_10_208301415.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_08_08_17_1_50_10_208312188.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_08_08_17_1_50_10_20825819.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_08_08_17_1_50_10_208282223.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_08_08_17_1_50_10_20829289.jpeg)
How often does the bait stay hooked to the sinker?
Ron
Hi Ron, we used to use a similar rig. The hook and sinker separates when it hits the water. We stopped using it because we lost a lot of lead, believe that the hook on the sinder got hooked...thought to believe.
I can definitely see that here. I ain't been here a year and I've lost a tackle shop! Don't you loose the lead on purpose when your slider fishing?
Ron
Hi All,
Using 'clipped' rigs there are a couple of salient points that have a big effect on whether the rig works or not. The clips that we use are more open than the 'clip' that is shown on Wallace's rigs, if the vertical line of the leader is straight up, then the clip will be at about 80 degrees to the vertical, any more than that and there is a risk of the clip holding onto the baited hook. We build our clips out of medium soft stainless wire, and that allows us to bend and adjust the clip on the beach, just to make sure that it is going to work. The other factor is that the hook length needs to be shorter than the sinker length, such that the hook length is effectively 'carrying' the sinker during flight.
Generally, clipped rigs will add at least 5-10 metres on all your casting. We even use them for our shark rigs when we are casting huge baits - the clips are just bigger than the ones we use for general fishing.
Hope that helps, and cheers to Justin for posting the picture,
Jeri
Hi There,
the trick with these clipped baits is to make them streamlined and not having a long piece of bait sticking out past the hook. This results in the bait propellering and causes more distance lost. If your bait is not streamlined, throw it without clipping it. It helps also to have bait as close as possible to the sinker in the case of an unclipped bait.
Jeri, do you guys use circle hooks? We use them a fair bit now, no need for double j-hooks and the hook up rate improves pretty dramatically and releases are also a lot easier. Baiting up correctly with circle hooks is critical though.
For sliding out baits, we don't lose the sinker. That rig looks completely different though. This site www.sealine.co.za has got lots of pictures of different rigs, knots and methods.
Geez we have hijacked your thread on bearings pretty badly!
Cape Fish,
Where are you from? My wife grew up in Durbahn and we have family down in Cape Town.
Ron
(1)there is no clip,its a tarpon hook with the barb cut off in the right place
(2)eye of hook is opened,connected to molded swivel in sinker and closed.
(3)there are no tag ends from the knots.helps stops twist.
(4)hooks depend on bait,i prefer 3 ganged tarpon 5/0,
bottom hook through the eye of the bait,tail through loop
of longliners knot.dont need to tie your bait on.
(5)solid rings in place of swivels.
i dont fish for sharks,but our methods are very similar.
cast into the rip and just feed it out for as long as you want.
im sure all beach fishermen know once your bait lands in 7ft+ of water
the under current is very strong.
photos are only a rough guide.works for me
Hi Capefish
No, we don't use many circle hooks up here, even for shark. Singles are my preferred hook arrangement, but with really large baits a set of doubles does give a certain amount of assistance mounting the bait.
The biggest single factor with all fishing is a sharp hook, and to this end we spend more money on good hooks than anything else, it saves trying to re-invent the wheel when getting hook ups. 90% of my hook ups on sharks with clients are on single 8/0 or 10/0.
Circles have a place in purist conservation angling where hook damage is a big factor, but as we don't let the shark swallow the bait, we very, very rarely get anything other than mouth hooked fish. We tend only to use circles when fishing for the aquarium, a preference of the overseeing scientist.
Cheers from sunny Henties Bay
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on October 01, 2012, 01:56:15 PM
Hi Capefish
No, we don't use many circle hooks up here, even for shark. Singles are my preferred hook arrangement, but with really large baits a set of doubles does give a certain amount of assistance mounting the bait.
The biggest single factor with all fishing is a sharp hook, and to this end we spend more money on good hooks than anything else, it saves trying to re-invent the wheel when getting hook ups. 90% of my hook ups on sharks with clients are on single 8/0 or 10/0.
Circles have a place in purist conservation angling where hook damage is a big factor, but as we don't let the shark swallow the bait, we very, very rarely get anything other than mouth hooked fish. We tend only to use circles when fishing for the aquarium, a preference of the overseeing scientist.
Cheers from sunny Henties Bay
Jeri
Thanks, yes the double hooks do help for big baits. I also find very few gut hooked sharks on J hooks, if the circle sits though it doesn't drop out or bend open.
Quote from: noyb72 on October 01, 2012, 07:14:11 AM
Cape Fish,
Where are you from? My wife grew up in Durbahn and we have family down in Cape Town.
Ron
South Africa, Cape Town, do you ever visit here?
I haven't been in a few years. My wifes father had a house in Durbahnville, his family is still in the Cape area. Somewhere along the coast. My interest in Africa has always centered around hunting but I understand the fishing is fantastic also. I keep telling myself that I might buy property their in the next life. It is hard for my wife to come to terms with, she left in 97, I'm certain you can figure out why.
Ron
Try a cannon ball rig. The weight sits on top of the hook, you could get away with alot longer wire like that. Sputniks are use by many people for this method. You crank it up tight, and the weight digs in then you have a shark lollipop sitting there ;D Also for reels, a Penn 4/0 while not the most glamorous when magged is used by many. I use a 545gs myself but thats probably to small for you, and distance isnt all that important on this side of the pond and i can get away with lobbing baits 20yds if im lazy instead of cuttin loose and goin the distance ;)
Is there a reason why you can`t use a large spin reel? There are a few that offer high drag output, are dunkable, and of course can cast well.
I found it interesting that you mentioned the Avet LX, as I did not think it would have had enough drag.
Another reel that came to mind is the original Penn Torque 200 and 300 with their disengaging pinion gear they cast very well.
good luck!
Basto
Quote from: basto on October 06, 2012, 09:49:35 PM
Is there a reason why you can`t use a large spin reel? There are a few that offer high drag output, are dunkable, and of course can cast well.
I found it interesting that you mentioned the Avet LX, as I did not think it would have had enough drag.
Another reel that came to mind is the original Penn Torque 200 and 300 with their disengaging pinion gear they cast very well.
good luck!
Basto
Hey Basto
There are a few guys in South Africa who use the bigger "coffee grinders" to fish for sharks. These are the 14000 Ultegras and recently a few Bullseyes were imported by the distributor here. The grinder "craze" has taken off< but those big boys are quite expensive.
The good old multiplier is still king down here when fishing for big fish.
The older Penn Torque 200 and 300 did not go down well with the anglers. Currently, the latest Torque 40 is being "tested" by anglers. Only time will tell if these will be able to "smoke the pipe" :)
Just throwing this out there (if not already mentioned): What about an Okuma product like the Cedros LD/Star?
Leo