I wanted to modify my Penn 113H for better casting.
The reel was disassembled, cleaned and the parts sorted. The stock thick metal washers were replaced with the Smooth Drag metal and fiber washer set. The stock bridge was replaced with a ProGear bridge. The brass gear sleeve was replaced by, you guessed it, an Al Tani's SS gear sleeve. The brass dog was replaced with a stainless steel one.
I started by filing flat and finishing with 600 grit sand paper the pinion yoke, eccentric and eccentric jack. Chamfering the yoke and jack mating edges followed. Chamfering and smoothing the edge where the pinion rides on the yoke is also important.
The pinion gear also needs a slight chamfer or radius in the yoke groove along with a slight chamfer on the base of the gear cuts.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0116_zpse1925afc.jpg)
The only additional work I did on the gear sleeve was chamfering the cut gears top and bottom. That way the sharp edges will not cut into the bridge, main gear, spacer or drag.
The main gear had the bottom flattened. The interior was cleaned up and smoothed up with a felt pad, polishing compound using a Foredom Flex Shaft. Make sure the drag washer ear notches are clear of debris. If this isn't done, the drag pack will not seat correctly.
I paid particular attention to the fit of the post to the gear sleeve. The ProGear bridge is better than the stock bridge, it's heavier, better machined and the post has a second grease retaining notch. I flattened the bridge and checked its the squareness to the post. I coated the post with a permanent marker. Placing the sleeve on the post I turned the sleeve while pressing down. When the sleeve was pulled off, the places of excessive contact were evident by the removal of the ink.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0111_zps0b1cb79f.jpg)
Using a very fine file I removed metal only in those areas.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0112_zpsec663935.jpg)
Repeat as necessary until there isn't any interference. Spin the sleeve without any lube to check.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0106_zps8fc3102e.jpg)
Polish out the filing marks with 600, 1500 grit sandpaper and Mirlon with Simichrome polish.
I used Mirlon and Simichrome inside the gear sleeve.
The idea is to remove only the amount of metal that is needed to allow free spinning.
Al Tani's on the left and ProGear on the right.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0149_zps141b0e2c.jpg)
Because of the differing heights post base interior bearing surfaces and matching surface on the sleeve, I was able to put two mylar washers under the sleeve. On top of the sleeve, a mylar washer was pressed into place and trimmed to fit.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0117_zpsd629a600.jpg) (http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0118_zps37fa44e2.jpg)
With the eccentric, two mylar washers were put under the jack.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0119_zps370e87c0.jpg)
Penn's line capacity recommendations for the 113h is 30 to 50 pound test in mono or 50 to 80 pound braid. A 5/5 drag washer pack will get you 20+ pounds of drag.With this build, I felt that 20 pounds was enough drag.
If you look at the eccentric jack, you'll see the even coating of Cal's grease. This shows even contact and pressure across the jack and the bridge.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0120_zps5f2aac63.jpg)
I used Jvariance* side plates and spool with my old Newell bars and base.
As you can see, I placed three 3/8" x 1/16" gold plated n52 magnets. Needless to say, the magnetic field produced against the spinning spool is powerful. That allows me to throw a very heavy jig a long way without backlash. By reducing the size, strength, amount, location and other variables you can change the spool braking for your needs.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0122_zps2cf953df.jpg)
I also use Boeshield T-9 lubricant inside and outside. This is solvent & wax solution that after it dries leaves a protective, lubricating film. I was surprised that even grease would slide off on some parts after coating with this stuff.
The reel weighed two ounces more than the original 28. With the low 3.25:1 gear ratio, oversize handle, almost 700 yards of 80 pound or 900+ yards of 50 pound braid, stainless steel sleeve, dog and gears the amount of pressure you can apply to a fish is huge.
Add to that, an increase in casting distance. I think it's a good usable combination.
(http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b491/herrscher/IMG_0129_zps911d11d0.jpg)
* I have to give kudos to xxxxxx of Jvariance for the outstanding customer service and help that way above any of my expectations. The parts he produces are almost perfect. The only nitpick I can find is not being able to put in a second dog without modifying his machining. But then, is a second dog needed on a 113h?
Wow!!! Great work....lots of patience....and great detail work!!
Great job.Now go fish it.
Personally, I'm not crazy about that Po-Gear bridge. If you didn't use the two washers, you wouldn't have been able to set the lock pin in the ss gear sleeve, unless you did some fine-tuning. Also, the sleeve shaft rivet and the tip of the two upper bridge screws might need to be sanded down if you use the JVariance spool. I also would have left that pinion gear as is, but if it's working out for you, that's great. To me that PRO-Gear bridge is just a bad copy of Penn's. This is just my opinion.
Sal
Thanks for the nice clear post. I can understand why people mag reels for casting. I don't understand how the other mods you did would get better casting distance. With the excentric jack engaged the only part that might slow the spool would be the pinion the shaft runs through when disengaged. Maybe there would be a little less friction when reeling? Bob
Sal, you're correct with your points and I should have expanded further in my post. I trial fit everything several times - before, during and after - again and again. When interchanging parts from different manufactures, I take it for granted that there will be differences in machining and whatnot. I'll take into account those differences when I'm tinkering around and should have highlighted that. The clearance from the rivet to the spool - in this case - is around 1/16", the thickness of a drag washer. I didn't have to worry about that point with this reel. With chamfering the pinion, I'm trying to get a smoother shift in and out of free spool. I've seen to many yokes with those circular cuts from the gears. I think that outweighs the small loss of gear contact. If it weren't for the second grease relief notch cut into the ProGear post, I would have stayed with Penn's and filed in another notch.
What is that old question; Holley or Weber? My answer to quote Bill Murray "It just doesn't matter"; the engine still runs. ;)
Bob, I can and usually do go overboard when playing around. I took just the assembled handle side plate with spool facing up. As I turned the handle the spool turned. That showed me there was enough friction in the assembly to cause that. I was trying to reduce as much internal friction as possible. By doing that the benefit would be an increase in casting distance.
All in all, I'm just throwing ideas out there....'ya know, kinda like throwing a scoop of sardines out into a boil. I expect to get bit.
;D
I'm still trying to figure out what I did to get those pictures so blasted big. Sorry 'bout that.
I'm not blasting you. I just couldn't see how the gear sleeve, bridge etc would improve free spool. I know with the pinion disconnected in freespool that there is some friction inside the pinion as the spool shaft passes through it. I'm sorry if you thought I was putting your post down. Bob
I didn't notice anywhere that you were loud with your message Bob and neither was I...at least I hope so.
Herrscher, we're just giving and taking suggestions for what they're worth :-\. Keep exploring, that's what it's all about ;).
Maybe one day I'll post some pictures of all the different parts that I've messed up by exploring ;D.
Keep your posts coming, I really enjoy them, Sal
G'day herrscher,
When you save your pics into Photobucket, try a size setting of around 600w x 400h.
There's a bit more info here: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=2349.msg44260#msg44260 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=2349.msg44260#msg44260)
(The suggested 800x600 is close to what you've already got, which is ~1000x800.)
Let us know if you run into any difficulties.
Good luck, Justin
Thank you for posting the photos Herrscher. They show great detail. Will the plastic washers last, or do you expect them to wear faster than anything else in the reel? Mostly my question is about the washers used with the gear sleeve. Also, it looks like the magnets sit in a low spot in the side plate. Did you grind out that spot for clearance or was the plate manufactured that way? It will be interesting to see how much improvement these changes make. I hope you let us know.
wish I had a picture of the lamp I made out of old Penn gears that either I messed up or that I got out of reels that were abused too much.Keep the posts coming and the comments too.If we don't discuss what we are doing we might all miss out on what works and doesn't,and so many of the things discussed on this forum save others from costly mistakes of which I have made many and really great ideas that help not only us but the industry as well.
Thanks and keep em coming,
William
Ben,
Mylar is a very wear resistant material that is also known as PET, the type of plastic in soda bottles.
The washers I use are very tough. In a fishing reel, you don't have to worry about shearing force or in this case compression.
They act as an anti-friction spacer when combined with a quality lubricant they do a great job.
I should make clear that I take apart and clean and grease my reels after every trip. To prevent any issues, I replace these mylar washers then. They don't seem to have suffered any problems....but...they're cheap.
With the magnets, these are only 1/16" thick and will fit in a lot of places. I didn't have to grind any where. The magnets, are N52 type and the strongest available. K&J Magnetics along with other suppliers, have rare earth magnetics with strengths of N42, N50 and N52. The thicknesses start at 1/32" and go up from there.
Mag'ing your reel will make a difference, depending on your needs are. I wouldn't worry about mag'ing a reel for ice fishing. :D...if you're casting you can change the way the line plays out.
There are too many variables that you can play with to give a definite answer, let alone a starting point. I think there are posts that deal directly with that issue that will give a clearer and detailed explanation.
When I do screw up parts, I do my part to keep the environment clean and green. They're recycled as fishing weights.
Wait, Stop;
Lead is bad, copper is bad, tin is bad, all plastics are bad, causing stress in fish is bad, using fuel to power a boat is bad, cutting down trees for wood is bad...refining any metal is bad...
ok I'm confused.
I'm going to enjoy some fresh caught blue fin, take a nap and not worry about it.
Quote from: herrscher on October 17, 2012, 04:33:06 PM
I'm going to enjoy some fresh caught blue fin, take a nap and not worry about it.
Good man.
One thing that I did to all of Jigmasters as well (and will do in any reel that I open up from now on) is lightly chamfer the edges of the yoke where the pinion gear sits with a round file. It made a huge difference shifting in and out of gear. Waaay smoother now.
Thanks again for the killer informative posts!
Keith
I did not know you can get gold plated magnets. I should try to get some for my ABU Mag Elite. The magnets in it are returning to powder form after 12 years. If they were plated with gold, they would probably still be ok.
Herrcher,
Excellent detail work, please keep it up! As for the large picture's; I think they are perfect for showing the details of your work (Im going to try it in the future where applicapable).
Thanx,
Leo
Quote from: Keith K on October 18, 2012, 12:02:00 AM
Quote from: herrscher on October 17, 2012, 04:33:06 PM
I'm going to enjoy some fresh caught blue fin, take a nap and not worry about it.
Good man.
One thing that I did to all of Jigmasters as well (and will do in any reel that I open up from now on) is lightly chamfer the edges of the yoke where the pinion gear sits with a round file. It made a huge difference shifting in and out of gear. Waaay smoother now.
Thanks again for the killer informative posts!
Keith
I always have problems when the pinion yoke shows a little wear at that area :-\.
Quote from: basto on October 18, 2012, 11:12:15 AM
I did not know you can get gold plated magnets. I should try to get some for my ABU Mag Elite. The magnets in it are returning to powder form after 12 years. If they were plated with gold, they would probably still be ok.
If you were thinking of replacing those old powdered magnets, get the measurements before removing the remains.
When trying to match the dimensions of those, remember that there are many different magnets types and field strengths available now. Todays magnets are smaller in size but much stronger than those a decade or two ago. I think it would be impossible to duplicate the original, even if you had the specs. You might want to get several different sizes of the same N ratting and try them all before permanently fixing one in place. You're accustomed to the way the ABU casts now, if you replace the magnets you will have to learn to cast it all over again. If that ABU is the one which has a semi-circle of small magnets, that will limit you somewhat in your choices. Assuming that you used N-52 magnets, start smaller and use tape to hold them in place. Go up in size from there. It might be to your liking to have two different sizes of magnets symmetrically installed. Have fun.
If this sounds like to much trouble, clean the magnets of material, degrease them then take some finger nail polish (your choice of color) and paint over them. That should stop the oxidation.
Thanks for your very informative reply. Yes, it is the model with a semi circle of magnets. I coated them heavily with blue grease to stop them breaking down and it has seemed to work with no retardation of their effect.
I was told that they are formed from a power initially.
Herrscher,
Thanx again for your post. Im very interested in maging a few reels and your post is the first that Ive seen with some excellent detail photos and comments. Would you mind posting a "HOW TO" on how you maged some of your existing mag'd reels. If you would include some info on sources/materials and tools required. Also any detailed data on approximate resistance with varing magnet combos/types. Im completely ignorant on this subject and some good direction would be appreciated.
Leo
Quote from: LTM on October 22, 2012, 12:44:10 AM
Thanx again for your post. Im very interested in maging a few reels and your post is the first that Ive seen with some excellent detail photos and comments. Would you mind posting a "HOW TO" on how you maged some of your existing mag'd reels. If you would include some info on sources/materials and tools required. Also any detailed data on approximate resistance with varing magnet combos/types. Im completely ignorant on this subject and some good direction would be appreciated.
Leo,
This is a classic trial and error, do it until you get where you want. With one of my 505 Jigmasters, it's set up to throw a 4 ounce lure with the rod built around that. If I put that reel on another rod, it could result in a huge braided birds nest. When I'm casting with a 6 or 8 ounce weight it's fine. With a 1 or 2 ounce lure, I have to pay attention. The magnets are cheap when compared to your time, so I purchase more than enough for the job. For a 500 series, I would think about 10 of the 3/16" along with 6 each of the 1/4" and 5/16" all in 1/32" thickness. This is nothing more than a starting point, larger reels will need larger magnets. Fewer thicker magnets might work better than more thinner ones. Trial and error.
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Let's see if I can make any sense of something I don't know anything about.
Please if I make a mistake, correct it.
Without getting into Lenz's Law in combination with Faraday's Law and Gauss's Law, it's fairly simple.
When you have a magnetic field and an object breaks that magnetic field it induces a force that acts against that object equal to the rate of change. A linear example of this would be the safety braking system on a roller coaster. In a reel, as the spool spins, it interrupts the electromagnetic field thereby causing an opposing force that slows the spool in direct proportion to the change.
Simplified even further, the faster the spool spins the greater the braking force acting on it. When the spool turns slowly there is very little braking force. When it's correctly configured (-> that's the hard part <-) you can cast as far possible without backlash.
Now the fun part.
The spool must be metal, plastic will not work.
Then you have to consider the variables and choose those to work within, some are;
Magnetic type; Strength. Rare earth magnets are a given but you have two types, N42 and N52
to choose from.
Magnetic size: What will fit in the space with the needed strength.
Magnet polarity sequence. N-N, N-S-N etc. This effects the magnetic fields strength.
Sequencing in a N-S polarity will increase the field strength
more than a N-N.
Magnetic location. Closer to the center of spin the braking force is less, towards the rim
that force will be more powerful.
Closer to the spool the greater the force, farther away there's less braking.
Increase the strength of the magnetic field by using a steel strip/washer under and/or over the magnets. Using the strips will increase the height, which you may not have. It does make changing the magnets easier if a strip is epoxied to the side plate.
I've always stayed with the strongest magnets without using steel strips. They are the N52 type in the sizes of 3/16", 1 /4" and 5/16" with thicknesses of 1/32" and 1/16". Of course there are larger and thicker magnetics available. Most are nickel plated but I look for the gold plated ones to eliminate corrosion
The straight pull force is the amount of force a magnet has on a steel plate.
If you put the magnet on a non-magnetic surface, the force is less.
Looking at the Gauss units (a measure in magnetic force) it looks like the the larger magnets have less force than the smaller ones. But, the surface area is greater and the electromagnetic field is spread out instead of localized. Comparing the 3/16" to the 5/16" magnets, the surface area for the 5/16" is 3 times larger that the 3/16" That is something to consider if you have a larger spool.
A comparison in a few of these shows;
Size straight pull force in lbs surface field in Gauss
3/16" x 1/32" .43 2340
ΒΌ" x 1/32" .66 1795
5/16" x 1/32" .85 1451
⅜" x 1/32" 1.05 1217
5/16" x 1/16" 2.05 2748
⅜" x 1/16" 2.62 2340
When you place the magnet between two steel plates the pull force is much greater. For example;
5/16" x 1/32" pull force on a steel plate is .85 lbs
Between two steel plates it is 6.75 lbs.
5/16" x 1/16" pull force on a steel plate is 2.05 lbs.
Between two steel plates it is 7.53 lbs.
⅜" x 1/16" pull force on a steel plate is 2.62 lbs
Between two steel plates it is 10.65 lbs.
To keep things in prospective, a 1" x 1/8" magnet produces 15.60 lbs and 70.57 lbs of force.
(
this information is from K&J Magnetics)
When I'm mag'n a reel I keep things as simple as I can. I stay with three magnet sizes in the same thickness. I use the rod, line and expected casting weight that expect to fish with.
Keep the number of variations at a minimum and keep your sanity intact. I started with a 500 jigmaster, with two 3/16" magnets configured in a N-S sequence. I placed the magnets on scotch tape, then folded the tape over to hold them in place. Then glued them in with Elmer's wood glue. You could also use a hot melt glue gun.
Start casting, short distances at first, then with increasing force until you start getting tangled up. Then you can add another magnet or go up in size, reducing the number of magnets and start casting again. If you're casting with more effort and not increasing distance, reduce the strength in the magnets field. Finally, you'll get to the point of being able to cast as far as possible without creating a birds nest. That magnetic field you've arrived at is for that rod, line and weight. If you change any of those, you'll see a change in the spool braking for good or bad.
Xxxx -- rare earth magnetics are brittle and will chip easily. --- xxxxx The supplier I use is K&J Magnetics. I've never had any problems with K&J so I've never dealt with any other suppliers. They have more than enough sizes and variations for my needs.
Good read Erik, thanks for the information.
Even though you only have a few posts here, I'm enjoying them all.
Thank you! Sal
Alan, should this be stickied?
Very informative and simple to do.
William
Herrcher,
Thanx a million for your info, with this I can run with the idea/concept. As Sal stated this should be a sticky, for I have copied this info into its on text file for maging reels. I too have enjoyed your posts and find them facinating. BTW, saw your post on your reels aka the team. What interesting things have you done to them?
Leo