Something Rotten again in the State of Denmark ::)
I have been reading all that I could find on TSI lately(as I had some rust issues in customers reels), and it strikes me that it is often mentioned that this lubricant enters the pores of the metal, ect. So yesterday I called an ex colleague working in the metallurgical lab of MAN, and asked what all this is about.
The first thing he told me was that metal has no pores, but unpolished metal has some ridges, and cracks.
On a connecting rod bearing(for an engine) it is in these ridges that the lubricants will stick and, but not for a long time, so oil has to be circulated, and pumped into the bushing. The bushing are made so that they have ridges for the lubricants.
In our fishing reels, we use SS steel bearings, with polished surfaces. This means(if the bearing is high grade) that our lubes has less "pores" to stick to. Also miniature bearings has to be provided with lube. It is me and my fellow fisherman's experiences, that a modern bearing lubed with something like Bicycle chain or Rocketfuel will keep a small oilbath in the cage, that provides lubrication for more that 500 hours of fishing and 10.000 of casts. Most Bearings are provided with grease from the manufacturer, for the reason that oils will not stick to it for a long time.
I might seems arrogant, or stupid to rule something out before trying it, but I have tried other high end Lubes, like teflon, and molybdenum and even Krytox!, with no success. In the metallurgical lab of MAN, they guaranteed me that NO dry lube can preserve the life of a SS bearing. And as a guy who believe in science and ammunition, I had no reasons to doubt the experiences of MAN.
If something is too god to be true, is normally is, and handling customers reels out, that will be used for 50.000 cast before I see them again, with a lube I have not tested for hours , is uncomfortable.
But I have read all about your experiences with Tsi, so I have no doubts that free spool and rust protection is great, and this makes this is a great bearing lube for jiggers, or people casting smaller lures. I also have no doubts that it provides great rust protection, especially to an Iron nail in a glass of still water :o
But while this satisfied 80% of the readers/members, others might have more specific needs, and this tread is targeted at these guys. Others, please don't be offended, or take it personal that I am questioning the theses developed around this wonderful site, I see this is a purely technical discussion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mostly service reels with a high amount of plastics, that's one reason why I ruled out TSI the first time, when I read about it, also I had my doubts that tsi can guard life of the bearings used for hours in reels for Heavy Musky baits(weight up to one pound(the Mysky Innovation pounder ;)), or of when casting HW Iron in saltwater.
It is also my impression, that many bass guys are very focused on "workbench freespool", but this has nothing to do with real casting performance. When using heavier baits, or lures like Spinnerbaits, Doubble 10's, and Bulldawgs, you will discover that these are notorious for getting caught in the wind.In this case we would not need a spool running wild. This is another reason why I would not recommend thin oils, or even dry lubes like tsi for casting.
Actually some great research was done by British competition casters, and lead to the conclusion, that you could control the speed of the spool by changing the viscosity of your bearing lube.
/Morten
Food for thought there Morten. Thank's for a great technical post.
Quote from: Killerbug on October 31, 2012, 09:15:01 AM
I might seems arrogant, or stupid.....
To me you sound like an engineer. If we don't question things we will get stuck in a rut and we will not progress.
I'm not sure about any of the alloys we call stainless steel but steel has a granular structure with some carbon and void between the iron crystals. If you have the time ask your friend if TSI like lubes will flow into and stay in these.
BTW, TSI also comes in a plastic friendly version.
Quote from: Keta on October 31, 2012, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: Killerbug on October 31, 2012, 09:15:01 AM
I might seems arrogant, or stupid.....
To me you sound like an engineer. If we don't question things we will get stuck in a rut and we will not progress.
Sort of, have a what in the US, or commonwealth are comparable to a B.tech degree in Polytechnics. But my ex throw the original away, so I today only have a PDF version of it ;)
Is this helpful info - http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/elastohydrodynamic_lubrication.htm?
Hi Morton,
Thinking is what we do, and it's always good to question. It's even better to test your hypothesis to either qualify or disqualify findings. For many of us, we do not understand such technical details, but becomes proof through experiences. So, the only thing we have been sharing about TSI is based on our experiences of free spool after weeks of applying TSI to the bearings. Jim has been instrumental in going one step further, and that was to test his hypothesis on it's ability to resist corrosion.
Therefore, to actually see the surface of polish steel, coated and uncoated, you will need a good microscope and possibly different array of filters/light to see the differences between the steel and coating.
BTW, TSI is not a dry lube. It's a thin, wet lubricant...
not sure how it works or why, but i've used a bunch of different lubes over the last 15 years. of all the different ones, tsi 301 has worked the best. the spin rate is second only to that dry teflon stuff i tried using a while back. where it really shines is in longevity. my makairas are still spinning, even 3 years later. so i am not sure how to reconcile the theory behind these products with field observations. my field observations tell me this stuff works. i'm just not sure why...... :-\
Why things works is for most people second to that they works, but we are nerds ;D. I am sure Tsi is great for obtaining some desired capabilities of fishing reels, but I doubt all, that was the thought behind my posting.
Longevity is normally measured hours applicated, but for fishing reels, numbers of casts might be the right measure to use for some. The average musky or pike fisherman casts more in a day, than a jigger does in a lifetime, and wears down his baitcasters(due to ripping the heavy baits), with a pace that makes him always use the latest models ;D.
It is mainly with these guys in mind I do my stuff, today reminding them that they should not rule the use of high viscosity oils out. But of course oils like Rocket Fuel and others have their limitations, especially in rust protection, that is almost none existent with these products.
First off, I haven't tried TSI yet, still got plenty of Corrosion-X around for my needs.
But, keep in mind that the casting needs that Alan and most West Coast USA fisherman have is very specialized. We use conventional reels for casting live baits, typically Sardines which probably weigh much less than an ounce (28gms). For this, you only need the fastest lube you can find.
Conversely, we have dedicated reels for casting heavier Iron, and this is generally only done down wind. Here, pure speed is probably less critical and many have magnetically slowed reels for this purpose. Here, pure protection and durability is the chief concern.
So, your Muskie guys that are casting all over lakes and not able to position themselves with the wind at their back at all times have unique needs. Heavy lures need heavier and longer lasting lube. Just what the ideal one is I have no insight although that Corrosion-X grease looks sexy.
best
Thanks John :D
Just found another rust protection oil test done by Take, in this case Shimano reel oil is up against WD40. I think the way Take is doing this test, is as close to the real thing as it gets. The only thing it does not take into consideration is the lifespan of the bearings, in a non corrosive inviroment.
Hi All,
I think that this thread goes a long way to highlight the point that we all require a slightly different performance priorities from our reels. Then from that different performance, we will favour different oils and greases to do the job to which we desire.
In reading the original theme about TSI lubricants, metal porosity and a lot that stems from the website 'sales' information, as well as the fact that this does not suit one branch of our sport – but lubricants like 'Rocket Fuel' are favoured – probably because of the adhesion qualities of that product. We equally have the boat guys that are casting ultra light weight live baits and lure, favouring another variety or combination of lubricants – like Alan with his strong faith in Yamaha marine grease. We arrive at the point where none are wrong, but we just all have different priorities in the end use of our reels.
I am just now cleaning up all my tackle after fishing in a 3 day surf International against teams from South Africa – I represented the Namibian 'Masters' team (over 50's), and of the two reels that saw most of the action for me, both have different usages in our surf fishing. I was using an Avet MXL for all my casting from the beach or rock platforms, lubricated with some of the thinnest oils that I can find for the spool bearings – I certainly wouldn't consider using 'Rocket Fuel' in this reel – too slow, but as soon as I needed to go wading in the sea out to stand chest deep on a sand bar, I switched to an older model Shimano Trinidad, which I had specifically prepared for full and prolonged immersion in sandy and salty water.
The Trinidad offers me the option of fine tuning to open out the drainage ports and packing the open (unshielded) bearings with a variety of greases and oils – dependant on their location. Spool bearings did indeed receive 'Rocket Fuel' for its 'sticky' characteristics, while the non-high speed bearings were all packed with silicone grease to prevent corrosion. The point that they were less accessible for maintenance each evening, meant that I was looking for something to protect them from sand and salt corruption, while the more accessible bearings for the spool could easily be cleaned and re-lubricated each evening after use.
The MXL, while an awesomely fast spinning reel for surf casting served me very well, but they don't respond too well to prolonged immersion in the sandy and salty environment of the southern Atlantic. The very fine engineering in the mechanics does not respond well to trying to chew through salt and sand in bearings and gears.
The point that I am perhaps slowly coming to, is that for a very wide variety of fishing situations we will all favour different reels, and at this point none would appear to be better than others, as the priority of our performance requirements are vastly different, and from that point onwards, how we lubricate each reel for that myriad of applications is going to vary.
A couple of points from the above, the Trinidad 'gold' that I favour over say the newer model 'A series', is because for quick and easy stripping and cleaning, the older model is infinitely better than the newer model – I have even stripped and re-lubricated bearings while sitting in the sand – something I wouldn't contemplate with the newer models. However, the old 'gold' model does have one serious weakness that really can spoil your whole day of surf fishing, is that the bearing at the very bottom of the handle shaft is very exposed to water, sand and salt, as well as being very slim in build – quite a weak bearing for such a location. I address that bearing with a huge application of silicone grease – a product used for lubricating rubber seal waste plumbing pipes during assembly – certainly not a propriety product for fishing reels. However, it does the job exceptionally well, as being totally waterproof, and seriously difficult to displace, it protects that quite exposed bearing very well. However, I certainly wouldn't be recommending it for general usage as a bearing or gear lubricant, but for that specific bearing, it does the job very well.
In closing the point must be with all our fishing and reels that we look at the issues and problems surrounding their usage before we fix the problem. Apologies for the engineer in me coming out, but I was always taught that we have to first fully identify the problem before we find the cure.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Thanks for your post, interesting read. Do you cast the Trinidad A series, if so, how do you find it regarding it has no centrifugal brake?
Hi Killerbug,
The Trinidad A is a great reel, probably one of the better 'engineered' reels around, but perhaps slightly 'over engineered' - too much work to do basic servicing, and very small detail issues in assembly. Casting it is great, and probably one of the obvious reels that needs to be moderated with various oils or a very well trained thumb.
A common approach down here in southern Africa is to use the end float mechanism to moderate reels, and I feel that this is a retrograde step in our surf casting, as we need initial acceleration to be maximised in our casting, rather than restricted.
I much prefer the choice and adjuctability of either centrifugal brakes or magnetics to moderate spool speeds. Magnetic are perhaps the way forward, but for a pure cost aspect centrifugal is great, especially if you take the time to set up your reels for yourself. I even at times get down to cutting the brake blocks in half to really fine tune reels. Getting reels to go fast is not the issue, getting them under control is more the point.
Apart from that a nice reel.
Cheers
Jeri
Hi Killerbug and Jeri,
All the top anglers I know here remove all breaks out of their reels and some even have them tweeked to spin faster. The Shimano 20/40 must be one of the most popular reels here in SA now replaced by the Torium and neither have any form of break. Many of the top anglers here can put a bait out 130m and more with those reels. I presume it is the same in Namibia. With smaller size reels though I find breaks help e.g. in a Saltist 30, the smaller spool just spins so much faster. On my Penn Fathom 40 I have also engaged 3 of the breaks as that reel spins incredibly fast as the spool spins on the shaft like in the case of an Abu or lever drag reel.
I agree with you on the Trinidad A series, it is a significant improvement on the old gold series, particularly the drag, anti-reverse and the drive shaft bearing but man it is a pain to lube the spool bearins, you have to take out something like 11 screws. I understand you want as rigid frame as possible but could they have not gone the route of the Saltiga rather, making the removable internal plate part of the frame and a separate left side plate?
Jeri, have you tried reel X in your bearings? The corrosion prevention is exceptional and it stays in the bearing. I have often done swims and then just rinse the reel with water and only much later relubed the bearings.
Some anglers here that fish a stretch of reefs here in Cape Town where you basically stand up to your chest in the water a few 100m out often mod a 20/40 or SL50SH as a dedicated reef reel by replacing the spool bearings with vesconite bushes and they like to hammer the drag as tight as possible with a sinker as well as it is sort of hit and hold fishing to try and stop the shark reefing you.
Hi Capefish,
Getting reels to spin faster than 'standard' is not the issue, we can get just about anything to spin at really good speeds, the issue is getting that speed under control. Having got the reel spinning and under control, the next issue is to get the whole thing tuned to the characteristics of the particular rod you are using.
This was part of the reason that we looked at the Avet reels for surf casting, they spin so fast that even the most accomplished anglers struggle to get themselves tuned to the speed of the reel, and in most cases have to moderate their casting style to get the best from the reels without overwinding on every cast – initially when we started selling them, there were quite a few making it to the second hand market, as a lot of guys found them too fast to master. Straight from the box, they are probably twice as fast as any tuned surf reel in our local market place.
My point about the 'old' Shimano Trinidad 'gold' was that it is ideal as a 'wading reel', with just 1/8th of the original braking facility in place, it suits the faster and more aggressive , but shorter swing casting style when wading; as well as being easy to service after day chest deep in water. Have never found any issue with the drag system, though I don't use 'wet' grease, by dry graphite powder, which I find keeps the drag really smooth and progressive, not needing any further enhancement. With the 'A' series they have gone a long way to sort out the 'float' issues on the long shaft of the spool spindle with the additional bearing, but they still have the same problem that all star drag reels have for a casting situation – which is that the pinion gear floats and causes drag on the spinning shaft. A problem that doesn't become an issue with lever drag reels.
Haven't bothered with 'Reel X', as we have our own blend of oils that we use for oiling bearings, comes from the instrument industry, and does an exceptional job. The point with all surf wading reels is that they must be fully washed out after every trip, otherwise no matter how good the lubricants and protection, salt remains as well as all the sand, and it just find somewhere to start corroding. Bushings are a retrograde step in my mind, as they are 'high friction' areas, and in distance surf casting we are continually looking for less friction.
Our problems usually arise from the fact that the blanks that we are developing require the much higher spool speeds to accommodate the blank 'launch speed', that we most often find that the reels are slowing down the sinker and baits – in flight. Given that off the sand we are now looking at a series of blanks that are exceeding 200 metres, what works for 130 metre casts is woefully too slow for our current needs. The same blanks when wading are beyond 150 metres, so the wading issue isn't quite so acute.
As I mentioned earlier, the top speed isn't the real issue (forgive the pun), but acceleration is what we have found to be the biggest factor in getting the casts away. This we find is best achieved with very fast spinning spool speeds, and then moderating the maximum speed of the spool, with either very small brake blocks or magnetic brakes. On some of the magnetic brake models, we are even 'shaving' the magnets to reduce the effect down to the levels that we are looking for. Which all comes back to my original point, in that we are all 'tuning' our reels for very different types of performance.
My personal opinion is that within the next few years we will see an increasing number of lever drag reels specifically designed for casting – I know there are a few about at the moment, but they are mainly modified big game reels, and lack some of the real finesse that is required for the surf fishing situation. It is perhaps why I do favour my Avets, despite the fact that they 'don't like wading' – they designed a casting reel from the drawing board up, rather than take an existing model and adapt the design. The lever drag reels also overcome all the drag issues that we face with our surf fishing, so the need for aftermarket tuning is avoided, just fine tune according to your needs, as in surf casting we can't use the huge drag loads that others might be looking for from their reels, as we just can't pull those kind of loads through the very long lever of a surf rod.
It is all 'horses for courses'.
Cheers from sunny Africa, got to go, plan on being chest deep in the southern Atlantic for at least most of the morning, a local competition today .
Jeri
"but they still have the same problem that all star drag reels have for a casting situation – which is that the pinion gear floats and causes drag on the spinning shaft. A problem that doesn't become an issue with lever drag reels."
Not all, the Ambassadeur Ultracast system, and the Revo Toro Seriers have no floating pinion prob. The Revo Toro, and the Rocket Series are real casting machines. But I guess these reels are too light for your type of fishing.
Bushings are diffidently a contact area, but not much more than a bearing the same size. The contact area of a bearing, connects on a larger radius, than the bushing(that only touches the the axis). But with deep grove bearings I am not sure. BUT, I would dare to challenge any Shimano Calcutta Guy who has filled his reel with Bocas, using my old red Amb 5500 with brass bushings(and floating pinion by the way).
Hi Morten.
A lot of the newer Shimano bait casting reels have super free pinion bearings and the Toro and Rockets have engaged level winds how can there be any advantage?
There is a lot to be said for the old cintered bronze bushings but will they really work as well against a well tuned reel with first class bearings? depends on the weight of the lure i guess, the average weight of the lures i chuck are 1/2-3/4 oz so i will certainly take you up on your offer with those weights, you got me on the big musky sized lures though
By the way i tried TSI on an old siezed fan with cintered bushings it ran 24/7 for months before i pulled the plug, i would certainly recommend it for they bushings on your reels
Quote from: inhotpursuit on November 10, 2012, 09:12:09 PM
Hi Morten.
A lot of the newer Shimano bait casting reels have super free pinion bearings and the Toro and Rockets have engaged level winds how can there be any advantage?
There is a lot to be said for the old cintered bronze bushings but will they really work as well against a well tuned reel with first class bearings? depends on the weight of the lure i guess, the average weight of the lures i chuck are 1/2-3/4 oz so i will certainly take you up on your offer with those weights, you got me on the big musky sized lures though
Several casting world records was obtained using a Daiwa millionaire with bronze bushings. Sure today many distance casters uses ceramics, but change them after each competition. So with todays technology you are probably right, bearings might cast further for some time.
A reel casts better without the levevind for sure, and engaging levelvind vs disengaging, is dependent of the reel size i guess. But the most important for the performance of a reel, is the spool and how it is made. It's all about centering the material of the spool, as this makes it rotate easier.
As a teen I used to inshore fish, using 3/4-1 oz iron jigs for sea run browns, and I think this was the casting weights the old Amb was designed for. 100 meter was a fine distance back then, today using a magnetic brake and some fine bearings you could probably do better. I have personally been experimenting a lot with different kinds of bearings, Steel, SS steel, ceramics, and semi ceramics, but I don't think the gains of an ABEC + something bearing, or a ceramic, makes any difference to my casting. But I am not an expert in reel tuning with ceramics etc either, so you might convince me of the opposite.
So on the bottom line, I would dare taking up the challenge, but might not win ;D
Quote from: inhotpursuit on November 10, 2012, 09:17:24 PM
By the way i tried TSI on an old siezed fan with cintered bushings it ran 24/7 for months before i pulled the plug, i would certainly recommend it for they bushings on your reels
I have no doubts that it would work well. Cintered bronze bushings are partly self lubricating. They are made by metal particles, that is pressed into a shape together with oil. When the contact surface of a cintered bushing, heats up,( like by a rotating axis), microscopic oil particles are getting released for lubrication. When the bushing cools down again, it absorbs the oil particles agian, and will therefore in the theory, not need any lubrication.
Hi Killerbug & 'inhotpursuit',
Good day to you both.
Apologies for the generalisation about star drag reels, it was basically to serve a point about the fundamental design concept of the two types of reels. The advances in design that have taken place even in the one model under discussion – Trinidads. In the 'A' series, they have addressed a lot of the shortfalls that became apparent through 10 years of service with the 'gold' series. One of those was to look at the friction elements in the long shaft of the spool, where it passes through the pinion gear – they now have two additional bearings on that shaft alone. Where as in a lever drag reel, the spool shaft is static and doesn't have the rotational issues.
In a casting situation, either minimising the friction points on the shaft or centring them all – are the two design options. For as mentioned, it all comes down to getting the spool and shaft spinning in a situation of maximum balance – or minimum 'wobble'. The avenue to get this sorted with star drag reels is obviously to place as many bearings or bushings along the line of the long section of shaft.
A point about bushing, the 'moving contact area' (friction zone) in a bush is the full circumference of the shaft, while in a ball bearing race, it is the points of contact between the balls and the inner and outer races – likely to be very much less than a bush. The problem in bushes for high speed work might well be a matter of holding lubrication present, and the lubricant will then probably have to deal with a greater heat issue than in a ball bearing of comparable size and running time. Just a thought!
You mention the earlier Millionaires, some with bushings and others with bearings – they were for their time fantastic reels, and probably all built in factories in Japan, where higher tolerances would have been the norm, rather than the problem that Diawa have recognised recently, in that they have recently moved production of their 'high performance' casting reels back to Japan, away from facilities in other far east countries. Ultimately, we are looking at our fishing reels at this level of application as very fine pieces of equipment – and the tolerances used in building them need to be that much tighter than say a general non 'high performance' product.
Looking at the very diverse applications that we are all using various 'standard' products for, it would seem a nightmare for the first designer of a product range. To build a range of casting reels to operate from 1/4oz lures right up through to 24oz bait and sinker applications. To then build these reels in a commercially competitive manner, and satisfy the huge range of other applications that are all inside the design parameters.
In our very small market here in southern Africa, where in global market terms we do a very unique type of fishing with our surf casting – it is extremely unlikely that any manufacturer is going to design and build us a reel that is totally ideal for us – it wouldn't be financially viable. So, we have to take what is basically a global market product designed for 'boat fishing' and adapt it to suit our needs. Even here our needs locally vary, and folks will use reels from sizes ranging from a 14 size right up to 50 size – this is using the more frequently recognised 'game' sizing of reels. The 50, being a reel adequate for IGFA 50 style of big game fishing, while at the opposite end, we will even have folks using reels from the 'heavy end' of bait casting like Calcutta 700's. To them adapt or modify these reels to perform as deliberate surf casting is our local challenge, and then we have the factor that there are a lot of brand loyal followers down here, which makes it extremely difficult for new comers to our market to get a share of the local pie.
When you also add to the reels design, maintenance and tuning equation the fact that like yesterday, I was in a local competition, and for part of the 8 hours I was standing on a sand bank 400 metres from the shore just above waist deep in the sea, with my reel full submerged in that lovely 'reel friendly' environment of salty water mixed with a huge volume of sand, and still expected my reel to perform to near maximum, whether casting or fighting heavy fish – it puts our local situation firmly in the category of unique.
This local situation is therefore quite different, and when you consider that on a global scale, more reels are probably sold in Texas in one month, than down here in 12 months!!! Then, when you look at the diversification of uses say between what you two are doing with casting lures, the production values in terms of 12 months of sales globally, it becomes a realistic return for factories to develop reels for all the specialist markets, whether casting 1/4oz lures or 3-4oz lures, and everything in between. I would hate to have the chore to actually count all the 2012 models of bait casters that are being offered globally at this time. I would hate to run a tackle shop that covers that style of fishing, for you could never get your stock right. It is probably why companies like ABU have refined their range down to predominantly bait casting styles of reels, it possibly gives them a chance to focus on the improvements they can bring to the game.
The smaller ABU and other bait casting reels are potentially ideal for the folks looking to go down the tournament casting route – low spool inertia, thinner lines to utilise the smaller capacity spools, much lower friction potentials, which can be enhanced with even lower friction bearings. However, using 30-40lb+ lines, and looking for 600 metre capacity, they would not fit into most of the requirements of our local surf fishing.
Add to all this that generally because we are on this forum, we are all looking at very small increases in performance from our reels in a very diverse range of applications, because we are all at that point where we are looking at the very core of our equipment and its performance. There can be no single answer for any question, and because of this it is all so interesting, seeing how other folks around the world are coping with similar, but different issues.
Cheers from sunny Africa, now going to clean all the sand and salt out of my reels.
Jeri
"Ultimately, we are looking at our fishing reels at this level of application as very fine pieces of equipment – and the tolerances used in building them need to be that much tighter than say a general non 'high performance' product.
"
Very true, but only a specialist will notice this. In Europe and the US all is about maximize profit and market share, done mostly by outsourcing part of the production to the far east. This has undoubtedly been harming the quality of their products, and more money has to be used today on aggressive marketing gags, like popping more cheap materials into the reels, and calling them sophisticated names. Exceptions are Avet, Everol, etc, and the now bleeding section of ABU garcia, still producing in Sweden. I have no doubts, that closing down the last manufacturing plant in Sweden, would downgrade ABU to an extent, that it will be the death of that company.
It is my Impression, that the Japanese manufacturers , most notably Shimano and Megabass are putting more pride and quality into their products regardless of profits, and has somehow adapted the now lost "quality spirit" of the Europeans, who used to regard quality as a major condition for earning profit. But agian, I think Shimano's fishing division might only consume 5% of the company's resources , compared to the cycling division ::)
But maybe I am way too philosophical now, but I just think it's a shame and waste of resourced to make a lot of cheap crap, when we have the experience, and the technology make much better products, than we are.
Very informative posts, thanks a lot guys. KB, sorry we are badly hijacking your thread here. Just a quick question Jeri, you said you use dry graphite powder on your drag washers, is this on the standard "dartanium" washers? I have definitely noticed that with wading you must be careful not to put too much cals grease on carbontex washers as they stick. If you loosen the drag, you have to hold the spool and turn the handle a few times before the drag goes back to its normal setting. I don't think I will take an Avet and swim with it, I couldn't be bothered spending so many hours on preventative maintenance, I don't even get enough time to go fishing and that's probably also why the "reef raiders" here fish old reels with bushes, they don't put in long casts on the reefs, it is better to wade closer as too much line between you and the fish just causes more hookups. Does the Avet spin faster than a penn torque or fathom?
Again that's what makes this site so interesting is learning stuff from all over the world.
Hi Killerbug & Capefish,
Good day to you both.
Yes, apologies to Killerbug, for hijacking your TSi thread. And full agreement with your sentiment that unfortunately we are seeing so much 'general market' produce being brought to the shops, and from that we have to try and find the quality products that we are really looking for, not the 'quality' that the folks writing sales literature would have us believe. Very much the same in the rods market place – getting sold on new carbons, 'HMG' and the like, when in fact they are just the old 35T but re-labelled!!!
Capefish, on your point about reels and wading, here in Namibia, the point of wading is to get beyond the shallow waters, and be able to launch into deeper waters where the sharks and edible species are in residence, so we don't see the folks using reels with bushes, but what we do see a lot of in our shop is the fact that folks can't be bothered to wash out their reels after wading, and all the attendant internal damage they are then paying to have repaired. – Perhaps they should go back to reels with bushes?????
On the standard Shimano drag washers I have been using dry graphite powder as a lubricant for many years, pretty much since they first came out, and never had any problem with the type that you mention. I have personally never been down the 'greased drag plates' route, as most of the reels that I have used are originally dry lubricated – Avets, Shimanos, etc. Despite being an engineer, I always felt that the original manufacturer would know the exact composition of his drag washers and how best to lubricate them, so I would follow suit. This coupled with the fact that every fishing trip is important to me, so I have a passion for servicing my tackle, so that there is little or no excuse for it to fail, which again comes back to very early in my engineering training, when I was taught the lesson of '6 P's'! - 'Piss Poor preparation, Perpetuates Poor Performance' (apologies in advance to the administrators/moderators for such language).
It basically comes down to how much you want from your fishing, and perhaps how deep your passion flows. A skipper in Miami once told me the value of a sharpened hook with a simple question – "Do you want to lose the fish of a lifetime, all for the sake of a couple of strokes with a hook file?"
As to Avets, I personally think they are potentially the fastest casting reel straight out of the box, for our surf casting situations here in southern Africa, spin the spool, and you will probably get in still running after about 1 ½ minutes – but it will be so quiet that you will have to put it on a wooden table to hear it spin – try that with a Trinidad, Saltiga, Saltist, Torque, Fathom or Torium – it's never going to happen! For the opposition reel manufacturers it is quite a task to get to that point, so this is where they require that you then start to strip bearings and re-lubricate with super thin oils and polish shafts and possibly fit ceramic bearings and the like to get to that kind of performance level.
That said, the Avet is a beast to cast and keep control of the spool to prevent overwinds, especially if you try to get too clever with thinner lines, then you are almost guaranteed trouble. As a sales advisory, we suggest to potential buyers, that we guarantee that they will spend at least 2 days and several hundreds of metres of line jut getting used to it, but once you have either tamed it, or yourself, then the rewards for distance casts will come.
This all again comes down to the rod and the casting technique of the angler, where most surf blanks are quite tame in their launch speed (tip recovery), we have been working with a design principle that very much increases the launch speed, and to this end we need reels that are able to keep a pace with that design concept – but then we are looking at serious distance casting rods, not something that your average pleasure angler is looking for too often. It all comes down to balanced equipment.
Cheers from sunny Henties Bay – surf angler's paradise,
Jeri
Um, hi... i was just passing by, when this caught my eye. Mind if i interject a few things? It happens to be my favorite example of the advantages of domestic production and long-term profitability. Besides, I just like Abu. :)
Quote from: Killerbug on November 12, 2012, 10:13:35 AM
is about maximize profit and market share, done mostly by outsourcing part of the production to the far east.... Yes, this is a typical modern model of immediate profitability in production This has undoubtedly been harming the quality of their products... Probably, yes the now bleeding section of ABU garcia, still producing in Sweden. May I differ? The Swedish side of Abu-Garcia (really, all of it is Swedish- despite American ownership, the company itself is wholly Swedish afaik) is doing extremely well, and definitely not bleeding. I meet their CEO / Production Manager and Sales Manager occasionally; both of them are very happy. The Ambassadeur reels, of which several hundred thousand are made anually, are an excellent example. Sweden is an extremely expensive place to produce anything, and in spite of this, temptation and experimentation with full scale low-cost far-east manufacturing has been proven more costly to production and profitability than advantageous. Instead, they found that long term corporate health was greatly improved by implementation of 100% in-house manufacturing at a highly modernized, extremely efficient facility. That way, they get exactly the product they want, at the level of quality they want, at the time they want it. The Swedish manufacturing facility can be considered so streamlined and efficient as to be competitive (or non-competitive: who wants to compete with something they don't aspire to be?) or advantageous as compared to lo-cost far east manufacturing. Some models of the Ambassadeur line, at either the lowest price bracket or the larger sizes are still manufactured abroad though, for reasons of either cost or size/manageability.I have no doubts, that closing down the last manufacturing plant in Sweden, well, its the ONLY plant as well as corporate headquarters would downgrade ABU to an extent, that it will be the death of that company. Yes, they realized this as well. And that is why Made In Sweden is worth it.
... the now lost "quality spirit" of the Europeans, who used to regard quality as a major condition for earning profit.... Well, that's just it- some still do.
But maybe I am way too philosophical now, but I just think it's a shame and waste of resourced to make a lot of cheap crap, when we have the experience, and the technology make much better products, than we are. Yes, it a tragic loss in many areas of life, where the desire to do the best one can has become clouded or lost.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread (which i haven't been watching anyway)...
.
" I meet their CEO / Production Manager and Sales Manager occasionally; both of them are very happy"
I have no reasons to doubt that they looked happy, maybe as a part of their corporate communication strategy ::). But I admit, using the word bleeding was a bit over the top.
So, now we can return the tread ;D
Quote from: Killerbug on November 12, 2012, 08:43:30 PM
But I admit, using the word bleeding was a bit over the top...
Hmm, yeah, maybe that's what caught my eye. :)
Its true though, that compared to thirty-five years ago when global domination (they're fond of saying that at the time, seven of ten sportfishing items sold in the world came from ABU) or around seventeen-eighteen years ago, when they really were bleeding, it just ain't the same world anymore.
AAaaaanyway, now about that TSI...
.
Well all this sharkin talk drew me in. Why dont yall just get a yak? Simplify everything ::) And as for cleaning your reels, dunking in water and cranking the handle works wonders. cleaned my ol penn 9 right up, im gonna be doin it wore often now
The sea is often to rough for canoes, often too far to walk with them and they are not allowed in league angling. Besides we like casting :) and your angling is far more versatile without a canoe. You can't cast with a Penn 9/0, old school Penn reels here are about as rare as model T Fords in our neck of the woods. We don't have access to all the upgrades you guys have for these reels and it seems to cost more than the actual reel and its debatable if it is then a better reel than an out of the box or slightly tweaked "modern" reel. The slow speeds of the old school smaller Penns are a problem in rocky areas as you can't bring the sinker in quick enough.
Hi Bunnlevel Sharker,
As Capefish suggested our seas are at times a little rough, and while we are on the same part of the African continent, the conditions that prevail in Namibia are somewhat different to down in the 'Cape.
Here in Namibia we have a roughly north to south coastline and a very strong current that pushes up from Antarctica – continually. So, the few hardy souls that have managed to get a kayak out through our surf into the back line area, are having a problem with the current – stop paddling for 10 minutes, and the current has moved you half a mile or more to the north!!!
Added to that we generally fish within the standard 'competition rules' prevailing between the two countries, and to that end, we are only allowed to cast baits out to all our waiting fish. There was a system that has recently been pulled out of the rules, that allowed folks to cast out sinkers, and then with a neat piece of twisted wire, slide huge baits out to where your sinker was anchored; but the old f**ts that write the rules felt that it wasn't like the old days – when 'men were men', so they scrapped that system, and we are all back to casting huge baits.
However, on the 'plus side', our sharks are generally not too far out, and it is only in shallow areas that we have to wade out, so a lot of our shark fishing is done with 'dry feet'. For the most part, we are casting baits in the 100-150 metre range, which can at times be fairly limiting, but it does mean that we are all competing on a level playing field; especially as the competition side of angling down here is very strong.
The difference between Namibia and South Africa, is that we are still allowed to drive on our beaches, so we have the ultimate freedom to travel around looking for good deep water areas that are likely to hold sharks, while the poor chaps in RSA have to walk down the beach – hoping. The usual aspect of competitions, is that a particular area will be designated the site for the day's fishing, and the area will usually be a 5-15km stretch of beach, so it will all be open to everybody – and here in Namibia, it can be a little like the old Le Mans start at the end of the captain's meeting, with everybody dashing off in their 4x4 vehicles to get to the hopefully 'best spots' first.
Our competition rules are very much designed to follow the concept of 'man vs. fish', with as few 'aids' as possible. Which leaves the option of wading out through 100's metres of shallow water an option for the foolish or the hardy, as generally the waters are quite cool with the prevailing current; the drawback of that is that usually just down the coast is another hot spot, where you can cast into deeper water, and get just as good results as the guy wading.
Just last weekend, I fished a local league competition, and waded out for 1 ½ hours of the competition for sharks, then it got too rough to stand on the sand bank, so I moved 10km up the coast, and found a spot where some Kob (like Drum) were feeding, and caught 7, without wading. The one shark I caught wading weighed less than all the Kob, so if I had gone to the Kob spot earlier, I might have caught more, and been placed higher in the overall results – like all competitions we have to make these choices.
So, at the end of the day we are left with our fishing being a fairly 'pure' form of surf casting, even with our local variations, which when viewed from a European perpective are downright dangerous – they don't allow anglers to get further into the water than their knees!!!!
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Jerri, is it possable to launch a dorry through the surf at times?
http://www.pcdorymen.com/PhotoGallery.html (http://www.pcdorymen.com/PhotoGallery.html)
http://outdoors.webshots.com/video/3085525790084711168nkqXpo (http://outdoors.webshots.com/video/3085525790084711168nkqXpo)
http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/571146155MmIeuL (http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/571146155MmIeuL)
(http://www.pcdorymen.com/images/SW5.jpg)
i'll pass........
That was a fairly good day.
Quote from: CapeFish on November 14, 2012, 06:17:20 AM
The sea is often to rough for canoes, often too far to walk with them and they are not allowed in league angling. Besides we like casting :) and your angling is far more versatile without a canoe. You can't cast with a Penn 9/0, old school Penn reels here are about as rare as model T Fords in our neck of the woods. We don't have access to all the upgrades you guys have for these reels and it seems to cost more than the actual reel and its debatable if it is then a better reel than an out of the box or slightly tweaked "modern" reel. The slow speeds of the old school smaller Penns are a problem in rocky areas as you can't bring the sinker in quick enough.
I meant a penn peerles number 9, and was refering to cleaning it. And i can lob the mess out of my 9/0, i want to mag it one day ;D Butas for kayaks, if you didnt have rules against it once you get experienced you can take em out in some rough stuff. And driving on the beach is where its at. I will leave yall to fish like yall fish, i get wet enough kayakin and swimming baits out
Hi All,
The case is whether we can get a boat of any type out, but the rules we fish by in competition. On the social side of fishing, folks either follow the competition ethic as practice or just do their own thing.
The competition side is very active as folks look to develop their skills and rise in the eyes of their peers – all this is driven by a desire to gain National colours – to be picked for a National team to fish against a neighbouring country. This is a very competitive and tribal arena of fishing, as the way through is from club level to ultimately fish at National level, to then be seen by selectors and picked to represent your country.
On the social side, the rule do at time take a back seat, and as mentioned there are techniques that are used to get baits further out into the sea. Sliding baited hooks down the main line, with the aid of a non-return clip is one, and the use of radio controlled 'bait boats' is another, very much like as used by Carp anglers in Europe, just a sea going version. The use of kites is mostly limited to South Africa, as on the Namibian coast we nearly always have an onshore wind, so a kite presented bait would only catch Silverback jackals from the desert at the back of the beach??????
The use of boats, skiffs or kayaks is a severe chore, and not really developed, as the biggest aspect is the temperature of our water as well as the strong current. All this and the added fact that this is not called the Skeleton Coast for nothing, there are a lot of uncharted rocks and reefs very close to the surface.
Having said all that we are very fortunate that at times and in some locations, we can catch Copper sharks (Bronzies) within 10' of the shore line, they are the local apex predator on our coast, and there are plenty of incidences that the sharks coming in very close. One trip with some scientist friends we were at a place called Sandwich Harbour (old German colonial, natural harbour that sanded up and was abandoned), looking to put telemetric tags on Bronzies, and we had earlier caught an abundant shark, and staked it out as chum. During the course of the day a good number of shark were caught and tagged. By evening time, we were just clearing up, and we noticed a Bronzie was coming in for the staked out shark, it was so close in, that it was suggested to the scientist that they use the long gaff to get the shark without the anglers having to strain to get the shark on the beach – it was that close. The belly of the shark was on the sea bed, and the dorsal fin of the 12' shark was fully out of the water!!!! The shark was not upset by nearly being beached by the small waves that were pushing onto the shore, but would just flap about until back in the water then swim away to deeper water, only to return again in 5-10 minutes to the same position. Eventually one of the anglers pitched a bait in its path, hooked up and held on – the Bronzie did a Bonefish impersonation – streamed of at huge speed to get out to the deep water, nearly pulling the angler into the sea. It was eventually landed, and tagged. In this situation, the shark would actually have been shoreside of any boat floating, it was that close to the shore. And this is just one of many examples of our big sharks coming very close to the shoreline.
As said, we have full access to drive n the beach, so dragging trailers and other contraptions up the beach is usually a pain, especially in areas of softer sand, so generally folks use either specially fitted out pick-ups with all the rod holders, etc so that they can fish straight from their cars. With the coastal towns being so few, and some judicious planning, we have very few overhead cables, so we all travel with our 14' rods on the front of the cars, and never snag into anything. Even petrol stations have high canopies, to clear all the fishing rods.
Fishing being such a wide interest, even the poorer folks (native Namibians) use fishing as a very valid use of gathering food – we see loads of bicycles fitted with rod carriers – pedalling their way out of town in the late afternoon, as the guys go down to the beaches north and south of town, to try and catch fish for either their families, or for re-sale. The fact that we have a very healthy stock of fish in our waters does help, and for this we are all very grateful to the fishery regulations and the very active policing of the same; it is not like this in South Africa.
However, this situation is not universal, and fairly restricted to Namibia, and a very good reason why our little town on the edge of the desert will transform next month, from its static population of 3,000 souls to possibly over 30,000 people. There will be a huge influx of folks coming in for their main summer holiday period, as well as Xmas; a large proportion of those coming to town will be from South Africa, and they will make a 1500 mile journey to get here. The day after Xmas, the big competition will probably attract upwards of 50,000 anglers to the beach, all trying for the biggest edible fish of 4 species – all competing for a $100,000 prize table (that's Namibian dollars – 8.8:1 when compared with the US$) – so don't all start phoning your travel agents – first prize is only about US$5,000! – and they will all be using just normal surf casting gear. It is probably our worst fishing time, and once they all go home, our normal exceptional fishing returns, and we get back to just lower numbers of visitors coming in – which are primarily dedicated anglers on 'boys trips', which usually involve groups from 4 to 20 of serious angler looking for good fishing. The population explosion takes place in all three of the coastal towns, as well as at all the various camp sites along the coast – basically folks getting away from the heat of inland Africa, to the cool coastal areas. This Xmas migration at some of the camp sites can be for as long as 6 weeks, when entire families will move to the coast for that time, the camp area for each family looks like a canvas version of a small town, and they have everything from portable showers and freezers to satellite TVs.
So, neatly being this back to the original topic – bearing lubrication: All the above explains why 99% of my work as a custom rod builder is on surf rods, and developing new rods to cast huge distances – as when we do get large numbers on the beach, either holiday makers or just a competition – most of the fish just move further out to deeper water to get away from the noise on the beach, and only then will the big distance casters get the rewards for their efforts. That is why we are looking seriously at the reels to get maximum spool speeds from them, as we are getting the rods right with very fast tip speeds on the release, we now need reels that will almost instantaneously go from 0 rpm up to crazy rpm. At the moment, we are content with the fact that we have reels like the Avet LX and MXL to cover the abilities of the very competent casters, though need to look at options like TSi 301 for lubricating other slower designs to get them going towards the speeds we get with the Avets. Currently, the gap between the 'others' and the Avet reels is too large, and why we looked at the Avet Mc series, but found those to be too slow even with minimum magnetic control, so we have looked at reducing the magnetic influence of the little magnet by shaving the magnet – which was a matter of trial and error, but we are now happy that by shaving 0.10-0.15mm off the magnet face we get some of the fierce speed of the 'full blood' Avet back, but still have the option of control.
Hope the above explains some of why we don't use skiffs and the like to go fishing, and how things are in Namibia.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Thanks again Jeri, competition rules eliminate boats. We have cold water off of Oregon too. Getting a boat through the surf could open up a lot of unfished areas.
Would removing the bearings and replacing them with bushings help? Bearings do not like contamination.