are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings? i can't think of any, can you?
I can. In my experience bushings don't rust and seize, ball/roller/thrust/AR bearings all do. Ball bearings are a nice sales ploy but expensive to replace and have a very short life.(Salt water environment.)
Quote from: Irish Jigger on November 23, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I can. In my experience bushings don't rust and seize, ball/roller/thrust/AR bearings all do. Ball bearings are a nice sales ploy but expensive to replace and have a very short life.(Salt water environment.)
how do bearings rust and seize?
Grit and saltwater in the roller and ball bearings destroys them.
Quote from: beachbob on November 23, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: Irish Jigger on November 23, 2012, 02:24:59 PM
I can. In my experience bushings don't rust and seize, ball/roller/thrust/AR bearings all do. Ball bearings are a nice sales ploy but expensive to replace and have a very short life.(Salt water environment.)
how do bearings rust and seize?
Hio, BB....unless a bearing is full ceramic, including the spacer to hold the balls evenly, in a salt environment, bearings will corrode. Stainless steel will eventually corrode. But what the makers are doing: many of them use blued ferrous metal as the cage to hold the balls evenly, which corrodes ~real~ fast in reels where the operator neglects to oil or grease them, as per Keta's above.
The more expensive more bearings. I guess the ploy is to get our money when we toss out things.
Use - clean - oil - use - clean - oil. etc.
Good fishermans cycle....
Quote from: Keta on November 23, 2012, 04:18:55 PM
Grit and saltwater in the roller and ball bearings destroys them.
how does grit and saltwater get into the bearings?
Spray and/or immersion for salt water, grit just gets into odd places. Grit gets into bushings too but it does not damage races and balls. There is a place for roller/ball bearings but for many of our needs bushings are as good or better.
interesting - so far most everyone seems to think that bushed spool shafts are better than those nasty spool shaft bearings.
They both have their place. Flylining live bait or distance casting benifit from bearings, trolling and bottom fishing not so much.
Quote from: Keta on November 23, 2012, 06:54:46 PM
They both have their place. Flylining live bait or distance casting benifit from bearings, trolling and bottom fishing not so much.
bingo. there is no way i'd want a bushed spool for a revolving spool surf casting reel. i don't skish and i'm reasonably careful with all my reels and whatever was used for a fishing session gets externally cleaned, then spools and bearings pulled and cleaned and relubed. the smooth, dependable feeling and speed of bearings is *essential* to a surf casting reel.
Unless it gets immersed in the surf often (saltwater and sand), then a bushed reel can out perform a reel with bearings.
Quote from: Keta on November 23, 2012, 07:57:09 PM
Unless it gets immersed in the surf often (saltwater and sand), then a bushed reel can out perform a reel with bearings.
are you saying that a clean/lubed bushed revolving spool reel is capable of longer casts than a clean/lubed bearing spooled casting reel?
Not necessarily, a marginally clean bushing can work better than a marginally clean roller bearing. If you service your reels often roller/ball bearings theoretically cast better.
in the 50's i started off beach and boat fishing using bushed spool reels ... never again, at least not for me. i keep pretty meticulous care of my reels, and i'm sure if i didn't i'd be singing a diff'rent song. :D
Quote from: beachbob on November 23, 2012, 02:06:14 PM
are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings? i can't think of any, can you?
I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about. If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.
But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.
Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.
So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.
Plain bearing = bushing
http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407 (http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407)
I never thought that bearings would be better under any condition. I guess I never let my reels get dirty enough to ever have any problem with bearings.
Quote from: Keta on November 23, 2012, 09:48:47 PM
Plain bearing = bushing
http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407 (http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407)
Interesting article Lee,I liked the "stilleto heels" analogy regarding loaded ball bearings. ;)
Quote from: Killerbug on November 23, 2012, 09:08:42 PM
Quote from: beachbob on November 23, 2012, 02:06:14 PM
are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings? i can't think of any, can you?
I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about. If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.
But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.
Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.
So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.
X2! Well said ;)
Excellent info thanks a lot. It would be great if we can move away from ball bearings. It will mean with a good pre-service your reel can just get a rinse and keep going. I think the Toyota D4D engines have also done away with a lot of bearings, rather opting for high-tec bushings.
Hi All,
In the machine design web site article, there were a couple of points that we need to address with this arguement. The first being that they admit that bushings are not the answer for precision location situation, which on a spool bearing for a casting reel in a surf casting situation, is one of the most critical elements. Spool alignment between the bearings/bushings is hype critical, as I suggested in an earlier posting, in some surf casting situations we are looking for spools to spin at speed approaching 20,000rpm.
The second element was surface area, in a bushing the contact surface area is much higher, and hence inducess more fricction, than say a comparable ball bearing.
So, perhaps bushings are an answer to some problems in reels, in certain applications; while in others they are not the answer. Years ago ABU used to pretty much offer two versions of each model, especially the likes of the 7000, one with bushes, the other with bearings - and very quickly all the surf casters opted for the bearing model, and the bushing models were discontinued.
Just my thoughs.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Hi All,
Taking this discussion a little further, and adding to the 'reading list', perhaps a view of SMB Bearings' tech data might assist with some of the issues folks are having with roller type bearings: see:
www.smbbearings.com/SMBtechdata.htm
A useful resource that explains a lot of what is happening inside a roller type bearing, and how to get the most from your new bearings, and even selecting the right bearing. We have been using some of their EMQ bearings for quite a while now, and have found them to be exceptional quality.
Back to the bushing vs. roller debate, in the first part of the web dialogue for: bushings out performing roller type bearings, there is a qualification which reads:
"That's not to say that plain bearings are right for every application where rolling-element bearings are currently installed. Extremely precise shaft-location or low-friction requirements, for example, could preclude the use of plain bearings."
So, the author admits in an early paragraph that the benefits of bushings are not going to overcome the requirements where precision shaft and low friction are a requirement.
Isn't this exactly what we are looking for in the spool of a casting reel, the latest models of lever drag reels with one piece frames, bored out of a single billet of aluminium, and all the other advances in precision engineering that we are currently seeing, are all efforts to get perfect alignment of the spool shaft in a strong framework/body.
Once we come away from the spool and its shaft, then perhaps there are arguments that make sense to replace some of the bearings with bushings, especially around the drive train, though there is one factor which would need to be reviewed, which is the compatibility between the materials. Having a too hard bushing working on a soft shaft would lead to premature wear of the shaft, easily remedied, but when it comes to long term maintenance, which of the two elements do you make the softer, the shaft or the bush? For when you do need to replace one, it is liable to be expensive, especially should the repair shop not have access to a lathe or similar equipment.
Originally, when I first got involved with surf casting reels, and how to make them go faster, and potentially cast further; I looked at the issue of ceramic bearings, and soon found that while they offered less friction, there was the issue of 'fit', between the inner race and the shaft of the spool. On standard star drag reels that we see predominantly on this coast, folks are reluctant to take out the bearings of their new reel and replace them with expensive replacements, so such 'tuning' work is usually carried out, once the original bearings have failed or started to wear. However, what has also worn, though to a lesser degree is the shaft on which the bearings sit, so at this point fitting a new ceramic precision bearing becomes an issue, as the full benefits of the bearing cannot be realised – as the matter of 'fit' is compromised.
So, what we have ended up with, is a situation where for a few dollars/rand or whatever currency you favour, that we replace bearings at regular intervals, and being a relatively cheap item and a simple task, we have our solution, but we maintain our position within the reel of shaft alignment and low friction. Reel manufacturers for the European market then started to fit the ceramic bearings as standard, just to overcome this issue, and to cover the losses they were experiencing to the after-sale market.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to what we all particularly need from our reels, but there will not be a simple solution or fix to remedy some of the problems that we face, as that fix might well be wrong for other applications. My solution to the roller bearing corrosion issue is to go down the route of almost paranoidly excessive maintenance, which at the end of the day, is what all top line sports folks do, the top cyclists don't jump on a rusty old machine and win the Tour de France, however, we don't see all the work that goes into developing and maintaining their bikes, what we see is them winning trophys.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Good analogy comparing a reel to a Tour de France bike. These days they cost about the same! But the likes of Sean Kelly had a sag wagon full of mechanics and hoards of spare components trailing not far behind. I seek fishing to avoid mankind and any assistance I might need from him. As a one time cyclist and bike mechanic I can only pray that Shimano doesnt do to fishing what they did to cycling. It is no longer a sport or passion of the middle class, a truly decent bike costs at least $5000. Fishing has already taken a turn away from common sense thanks to profit obsessed manufacturers and stupid uneducated consumers looking only at shiny chrome and color coordinated rods/reels that as Shimano now totes...'can match your boats hull!' We allow brand makers and 'internet experts' to convince us we need more tech, more maintenance, more complicated reels capable of acting at Star Trek Warp speed, all to catch a animal with a pee sized brain! Its all a marketing trap and fishing is now really the manufacturer fishing for your money at a more constant rate with planned obsolesence and continuing style change.
Quote from: Jeri on November 24, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
... At the end of the day, it all comes down to what we all particularly need from our reels, but there will not be a simple solution or fix to remedy some of the problems that we face, as that fix might well be wrong for other applications. My solution to the roller bearing corrosion issue is to go down the route of almost paranoidly excessive maintenance, which at the end of the day, is what all top line sports folks do, the top cyclists don't jump on a rusty old machine and win the Tour de France, however, we don't see all the work that goes into developing and maintaining their bikes, what we see is them winning trophys. ...
the reel performance with bearings is well worth the simple reel and bearing maintenance after a fishing session. it's stupid easy. that's the bottom line for me.
I was in heavy industrial maintenance for over 30 years and believe in preventative maintenance, my reels get stripped down and serviced too often. HOWEVER, by the looks of the reels I work on for others (bushings would be a better, especialy the charter boat reels) most people don't EVER open their reels, let alown service them. For the "average" fisherman bushed reels would be a much better choice....but they aren't "sexy" like ball/roller bearings. I feel it's mostly addvertising/sales departement driven, not needs driven for most applications.
I've never seen a bushed reel locked up without having a bent spool shaft or warped spool, I have seen several reels locked up due to failed bearings.
There is a time and place for both and both are superior to the other in SOME applications. One factor you don't often see mentioned is the enertia it takes to get a ball/roller bearing moving, that can limit your casting distance, a bushing has no moving parts.
Quote from: Keta on November 24, 2012, 02:07:47 PM
I was in heavy industrial maintenance for over 30 years and believe in preventative maintenance, my reels get stripped down and serviced too often. HOWEVER, by the looks of the reels I work on for others (bushings would be a better, especialy the charter boat reels) most people don't EVER open their reels, let alown service them. For the "average" fisherman bushed reels would be a much better choice....but they aren't "sexy" like ball/roller bearings. I feel it's mostly addvertising/sales departement driven, not needs driven for most applications.
I've never seen a bushed reel locked up without having a bent spool shaft or warped spool, I have seen several reels locked up due to failed bearings.
There is a time and place for both and both are superior to the other in SOME applications. One factor you don't often see mentioned is the enertia it takes to get a ball/roller bearing moving, that can limit your casting distance, a bushing has no moving parts.
X2
Great post Lee,couldn't agree more. ;D
I actually think everyone is right. For the average angler, and especially the charter boat operation, plain bearings make sense. For the casting crank that runs his/her reels at 9/10ths to maximize the fishing experience and get every last bit out of the reel and who probably enjoys maintaining the reels almost as much as fishing them, spool bearings would have the advantage. Just two different but equally important mindsets about the most fantastic thing God ever allowed man to do.
Ron
Hi All,
Well said Ron, agree fully.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 23, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: Killerbug on November 23, 2012, 09:08:42 PM
Quote from: beachbob on November 23, 2012, 02:06:14 PM
are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings? i can't think of any, can you?
I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about. If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.
But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.
Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.
So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.
X2! Well said ;)
Just like i tried to tell you on P&S beach bob ;)
clearly to me, this forum is mostly comprised of boatmen and not surfcasters. here in the nor'east, i dunno of any revolving spool reel surfcaster that would choose bushings over bearings - i'm sure there are some, but they're the absolute rare exception. in the long run, it's all good, do as y'all like. :)
Reels do not have tight tolerance and bushing can be made to reduce contact, bushings are not "new and improved" and many fall for advertising hype.
There is a time and place for both but for the AVERAGE fisherman roller bearings are not necessary.
In the late summer/early fall we cast to jumping albacore and they can be very boat shy so long casts are needed at times. I'd rather see clients using a reel capable of making these casts without having to tear the reels down weekly for a cleaning and lube. The reels on thr charter boat get fished harder than the average sportfishermans gear and see abuse from clients that do not know how to fish the gear as well as I'd like. The older reels keep working, so far I haven't had to replace a cracked/damaged pinion bearing on a 113H.
My personal reels run from old Surfmasters to Penn 70s with many types of reel in between, I kokanee fish (troll and jig) with Calcutta 51's (bearings) and salmon fish with Surfmaster 100 (bushings), ABU 5601 (bearings) and Calcutta 401 (bearings), I'm more interested in accurate casts when steelhead fishing but there are times we need to make long casts for salmon, bushings or bearings don't seem to matter. One of my best casting reels is a Penn 100.
The bottom line is, most fishermen do not maintain their reels as often as needed and bushings are a better choice for them. Those of us that do (or have done for us) the needed PM can take advantage of the small differance in friction roller/ball bearings theoretically have over plain bearings for distance casting and flylining smaller live baits.
Bushings tend to wear in and perform better over time. The same can't be said for bearings. JMO Bob
Quote from: 0119 on November 24, 2012, 11:49:51 AM
Good analogy comparing a reel to a Tour de France bike. These days they cost about the same! But the likes of Sean Kelly had a sag wagon full of mechanics and hoards of spare components trailing not far behind. I seek fishing to avoid mankind and any assistance I might need from him. As a one time cyclist and bike mechanic I can only pray that Shimano doesnt do to fishing what they did to cycling. It is no longer a sport or passion of the middle class, a truly decent bike costs at least $5000. Fishing has already taken a turn away from common sense thanks to profit obsessed manufacturers and stupid uneducated consumers looking only at shiny chrome and color coordinated rods/reels that as Shimano now totes...'can match your boats hull!' We allow brand makers and 'internet experts' to convince us we need more tech, more maintenance, more complicated reels capable of acting at Star Trek Warp speed, all to catch a animal with a pee sized brain! Its all a marketing trap and fishing is now really the manufacturer fishing for your money at a more constant rate with planned obsolesence and continuing style change.
So true.
The bottom line is, most fishermen do not maintain their reels as often as needed and bushings are a better choice for them. Those of us that do (or have done for us) the needed PM can take advantage of the small differance in friction roller/ball bearings theoretically have over plain bearings for distance casting and flylining smaller live baits.
Agreed. In spades.
Little bit of salt, little bit of sand - and the roller bearings are toast.
But the bushing just gets a little looser, and a little faster.
I think surf casters know more about their reels than the average joe. The average fisherman does not even know what or where a bearing is located.
Quote from: slgriffiths on January 28, 2013, 11:43:59 AM
The bottom line is, most fishermen do not maintain their reels as often as needed and bushings are a better choice for them. Those of us that do (or have done for us) the needed PM can take advantage of the small differance in friction roller/ball bearings theoretically have over plain bearings for distance casting and flylining smaller live baits.
Agreed. In spades.
Little bit of salt, little bit of sand - and the roller bearings are toast.
But the bushing just gets a little looser, and a little faster.
Or the bush corrodes into the frame/sideplate or eats away the spool spindle, bearings unlikely to do that. They rust if you don't look after them and then you throw them away and put new ones in and the damage to the reel is minimal. All my surf reels have bearings in and they have been lasting for years even with frequent wading. Why would manufacturers waste their money putting bearings in? There is surely not some bearing conspiracy action out there, they work very well and are easy to maintain and cheap to replace if they do pack up. If you want to make a 140m cast bearings work well.
I work on a lot of abused reels and have rarely seen this. SS is far higher on the noblility scale than bronze and reacts to aluminum much faster.
Do a little test, drill and tap a piece of aluminum and put SS, brass and steel screws in the holes. Place the piece in salt water for a week and see what material comes out easiest.
Bearings have their place but they have become a marketing tool.
Quote from: Seachaser on January 28, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
I think surf casters know more about their reels than the average joe. The average fisherman does not even know what or where a bearing is located.
I'm not so sure about your statement :-\. Lets take this wonderful site for instance. There are lots of average joe here, about 5,000 worth daily, made up of 50% active members and the rest visitors. I also consider myself an average joe and I happen to know where my bearings are.
I would agree with you that there might be a few that don't have a clue, but thanks to Alan and his great site, they're quickly diminishing.
Quote from: Seachaser on January 28, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
I think surf casters know more about their reels than the average joe. The average fisherman does not even know what or where a bearing is located.
Surf casters knows what they need to know, about casting bullet shaped weights as far as possible. There is a lot more to fishing(casting) than that. The favorite reel design, of many, if not all surf casters, was developed by a Swedish pike angler(and it had brass bushings :P).
Quote from: Keta on January 28, 2013, 01:58:36 PM
I work on a lot of abused reels and have rarely seen this. SS is far higher on the noblility scale than bronze and reacts to aluminum much faster.
Do a little test, drill and tap a piece of aluminum and put SS, brass and steel screws in the holes. Place the piece in salt water for a week and see what material comes out easiest.
Bearings have their place but they have become a marketing tool.
Absolutely!
I only do casting with intermediate to large conventional reels. No boat fishing whatsoever. My preference is for BB, not bushings, although I have owned, and still do own, and use reels with bushings. I find them easier to cast, farther. This is only my own preference and whatever someone else uses is totally up to them. I don't care.
QuoteI also consider myself an average joe and I happen to know where my bearings are
I'm also average, but sometimes lose my bearings (or is that marbles). :)
Quote from: Makule on January 28, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
I only do casting with intermediate to large conventional reels. No boat fishing whatsoever. My preference is for BB, not bushings, although I have owned, and still do own, and use reels with bushings. I find them easier to cast, farther. This is only my own preference and whatever someone else uses is totally up to them. I don't care.
QuoteI also consider myself an average joe and I happen to know where my bearings are
I'm also average, but sometimes lose my bearings (or is that marbles). :)
;D ;D funny Albert. I actually should have said : I know where my bushings are. Most of my conventionals that I fish with have bushings....no bearings. ;)
Quote from: CapeFish on January 28, 2013, 01:09:46 PM
Quote from: slgriffiths on January 28, 2013, 11:43:59 AM
The bottom line is, most fishermen do not maintain their reels as often as needed and bushings are a better choice for them. Those of us that do (or have done for us) the needed PM can take advantage of the small differance in friction roller/ball bearings theoretically have over plain bearings for distance casting and flylining smaller live baits.
Agreed. In spades.
Little bit of salt, little bit of sand - and the roller bearings are toast.
But the bushing just gets a little looser, and a little faster.
Or the bush corrodes into the frame/sideplate or eats away the spool spindle, bearings unlikely to do that. They rust if you don't look after them and then you throw them away and put new ones in and the damage to the reel is minimal. All my surf reels have bearings in and they have been lasting for years even with frequent wading. Why would manufacturers waste their money putting bearings in? There is surely not some bearing conspiracy action out there, they work very well and are easy to maintain and cheap to replace if they do pack up. If you want to make a 140m cast bearings work well.
Yup - good point.
Dissimilar metal corrosion or galvanic corrosion will sure make toast out of a bushing. Over time.
Roller bearings however have a habit of ingesting salt water into the grease (if it's there) and keeping it under the seals, and just plain locking up. And they certainly are not immune to galvanic corrosion - bushings are usually more noble, and have a greater surface area to "sacrifice" before performance becomes a serious issue. And they don't have cheap cages surrounding their active components either.
The stainless steels used in many bearings have anaerobic corrosion issues as well - stainless isn't all that stainless, especially in the absence of oxygen.
And I think it's fair to say a plain bearing or bushing can certainly be made to as good a tolerance as a roller bearing. In fact, I'd say it's easier than with a roller bearing. Plain or bushing doesn't mean less accurate.
And manufacturers have to catch fishermen - not fish. Bling is bait... Bushings are simply not cool - but having an unecessary number of ball bearings in a reel is cool - to the uninitiated, who don't have to rip them apart and fix them a year or two down the track when they lock up.
New, or looked after well (and many do this, I freely admit - especially those who have specialty needs, like full immersion surf casting and "yak" fishing) roller bearings certainly can do better. However most fisherman, dare I say, simply don't provide the necessary care to their reels, as many have said in this thread before me.
Therefore, in my opinion, the corrosion and tolerance resistance of bushIngs, and the quite good performance, especially over time, that they offer are seriously desirable.
Less technology can often be more...
Guess I'd better get off the soap box, and let someone else have a say!
Simon.
I like bushings.
They are boring.
I don't need to buy expensive ceramic bearings.
I fish off the beach with my old Penns with bushings.
I clean my reels regularly.
And, I catch fish with them.
So you are saying the world distance casters should ditch the bearings in their reels and put bushings in? There is no difference?
Hi All,
Isn't this a lovely debate!!!!
I can appreciate and empathise with nearly all the points of view being expressed, having done a considerable amount of different fishing around the world, and over the past 50 years – and some of that with 'bushed reels'. We have all seen huge developments in the tackle that we use, however, the point is that while I and many others will have caught fish with very basic tackle from 50 years ago, we do now benefit from some of the advances in materials technology, though there are still obviously people that prefer the older styles. Try convincing some of the fly fishing old timers the advantages of carbon fly rods over split cane???? None are 100% wrong, and none are 100% right, what we need to do is accept that at one level, there are groups of people that will have very valid reasons for having some of the latest technology in their fishing reel, and support their points of view with enthusiasm – conspiracy theories or otherwise.
However, all of the above could equally be applied to: Carbontex drag washers, Tiburon frames, SS dogs, ABEC 5 bearings (sorry those are ball bearings), ABC bushes (just to 'balance out' the equation – must start a company called ABC!!!), and the list goes on. We are all looking to improve or at least address some of our perceived shortfalls of the designs of the reels that we use, for the specific application that we are applying that reel. I frequently advise clients in my shop, that 99% of the reels that we use here in southern Africa, were basically designed as a boat fishing reel, and we have to adapt that to suit our surf fishing situation, whether that is through preventive maintenance or different internal components. And we will remain in that position, until some enlightened manufacturer develops reels to suit our exacting needs.
There are millions of disturbed electrons on this site alone that have suffered for the issues of various bearings, and there are some very profound words on the subject, equally there are millions of electrons disturbed about lubricants – various and many. We all have a different set of priorities about the specific fishing that we undertake, and those priorities also dictate our preferences of the modifications of the reels that we use. Debate is good, but none of us can be finite about any given situation, so let's have the debate, it will share all the combined knowledge, and then we can 'cherry pick' what we each need.
A closing thought – is there a company out there making hi-tech bushings of replacement sizes for all the ball bearings that we find in 99% of our reels today? – just a thought!
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Quote from: CapeFish on January 29, 2013, 01:12:15 PM
So you are saying the world distance casters should ditch the bearings in their reels and put bushings in? There is no difference?
No one has said there were no differences. What is being said is
for most situations bearings are not necessary and
can (not nessassarly will) cause problems in a dirty environment. Casting competitions are one good place for bearings but
that is not fishing. There is a time and place for SPOOL bearings, but bushings also have their place.
Quote from: Jeri on January 29, 2013, 01:41:05 PM......Carbontex drag washers, Tiburon frames, SS dogs.....
......
A closing thought – is there a company out there making hi-tech bushings of replacement sizes for all the ball bearings that we find in 99% of our reels today? – just a thought!
Carbontex is a major and needed improvement
Solid frames are not a "must have" mod but they do make a big difference when pushing a reel over it's rated capacity
SS dogs are a
bad thing if used with a brass gear sleeve but if a SS gear sleeve is used (another needed improvement when pushing the reel over factory spec) SS dogs are far better than brass. Using a mixed set can cause dammage to the softer brass part.
I don't think anyone could sell bushing replacements for bearings due to lack of knowledge and bearing marketing hype. I've thought about having some bushings made to be used with thrust bearings to replace Avet pinion bearings.
There is a time and place for bearings, the same can be said of bushings. For most needs more than 2 bearings in a reel is marketing hype.
FYI, I tried using a bushing to replace the pinion bearing and it didn't work. The bushing does not allow the pinion to spin freely. The best replacement is a thrust and radial bearing replacement like in the Squall LD. They definitely did their homework.
The inner race of the radial bearing puts pressure on the thrust bearing, and therefore, the radial bearing is never pushed out of alignment due to the width of the inner race. I need the time to experiment with what is out there to possibly have a solution for our trusty Avets.
Thin bearing with thrust bearing behind it, is the side plate strong enough to take the load? Someone needs to make a run of flanged angular contact bearings to cure the problem.
Quote from: Keta on January 29, 2013, 07:35:03 PM
Thin bearing with thrust bearing behind it, is the side plate strong enough to take the load? Someone needs to make a run of flanged angular contact bearings to cure the problem.
Hi Keta,
So is this a quiet admission that bushings are probably not the sole solution to all the issues in reels??
As I said, I do agree that there are a number of locations where bushings might be an acceptable solution to the problems of lack of maintenance, however, bearings do offer a solution to a good number of issues in reels.
The point about all the other goodies that we fit to our reels is that different folks have different priorities, carbontex is perhaps an adequate solution to some of your problems, in the surf fishing world it is totally a waste of time if the reel with whatever was already fitted as a drag material offers up to 20lb of drag, as so very few people can pull a surf rod round to more than 20lbs of drag, so anything more than that is a waste. However, very free spool bearings are pretty essential in these days of duistance surf casting - and not over grass - but over water - to catch fish.
As said, it is all a case of priorities, and there are no 100% solutions that cover all situations.
Cheers from darkest Africa - the sun has well and truly gone down.
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on January 29, 2013, 08:38:17 PM
As said, it is all a case of priorities, and there are no 100% solutions that cover all situations.
Yup
Quote from: CapeFish on January 29, 2013, 01:12:15 PM
So you are saying the world distance casters should ditch the bearings in their reels and put bushings in? There is no difference?
No, but then, they aren't fishing, in sand, dunking reels, etc. They have very specialized requirements that have little to do with everyday reel use. Not a good argument
Quote from: Keta on January 29, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Quote from: Jeri on January 29, 2013, 08:38:17 PM
As said, it is all a case of priorities, and there are no 100% solutions that cover all situations.
Yup
X2
Quote from: day0ne on January 29, 2013, 11:40:26 PM
Quote from: CapeFish on January 29, 2013, 01:12:15 PM
So you are saying the world distance casters should ditch the bearings in their reels and put bushings in? There is no difference?
No, but then, they aren't fishing, in sand, dunking reels, etc. They have very specialized requirements that have little to do with everyday reel use. Not a good argument
I dunk my reels in the saltwater all the time and they get full of sand, none of them have a single bush, we need the bearings to get distance, we fish big reels with heavy big baits and sinkers, the spools need to spin as fast as possible. I do preventative maintenance once a year and for the rest of the time wash reels in freshwater after fishing and if I swam a lot will open the left sideplate and put a drop of oil on the bearings - no problems with the bearings at all. If you do this, however, and leave the brass bush below the driveshaft of a torium in place it corrodes into the frame, I have seen that plenty of times and in due course the drifeshaft also wears away with the bush. DIfferent strokes for different fishing techniques as Jeri has tried to make clear.
I don't know anything about your torium, but I do know that bushings take way more abuse than bearings..... on my reels anyway.