Hi all,
I was playing around with some numbers and I was wondering what the relationship is between drag and total drag surface area. I took the numbers Alan posted a while back of the inner and outer diameter of some penn ht-100 drag washers. I converted the millimeter amounts into inches and calculated the total square inches of some penn reel ht-100 washers.
Here is my methodology of finding the total square inches of ht-100 drag washers for a particular reel:
Take the 49l
the inner diameter of the ht-100 washers is 10.55 millimeters. The outer diameter is 28.67. I divided each amount by 25.4 to convert it to inches. The inner diameter becomes .4154 inches and the outer diameter becomes 1.1129 inches. I then found the area of the entire washer, and subtracted the area of the hole in the middle for the gear sleeve. Each side of one HT-100 washer is .8651 inches squared. Since there are three drag washers in a 49 and each drag washer has 2 sides, I multiplied .8651 by 6 and got 5.02 inches squared. Therefore, a penn 49l has about 5 square inches of total surface area.
I did these calculations for other reels too. The numbers and reels are as follows:
beachmaster 155 (uses three HT-100s): 1.517 inches squared
Jigmaster/309 (uses three HT-100s): 3.571 inches squared
310GT2 (uses 5 HT-100s): 3.716 inches squared
114 Black side plate (uses 5 Ht-100s): 4.361 inches squared
49L Mariner (uses three HT-100s): 5.02 inches squared
113h (uses five HT-100s): 6.807 inches squared
115l (uses 5 HT-100s): 7.926 inches squared
116l (uses 7 HT-100s): 13.55 inches squared
117l (uses 7 HT-100s): 20.75 inches squared
What surprises me is the max drag some of the above reels are rated for. For example, a jigmaster maxes out at around 15 pounds of drag, but a 49 mariner, which has significantly more drag surface area is said to not have too much. Also, Penn rates the 209 (which has the exact same drag stack as the beachmaster 155) as maxing out at 10 pounds of drag. This is two thirds of 15, but it only has 1/3 of the drag surface area of the jigmaster. Similarly, the great 117l senator which has a whopping 20.75 square inches of drag surface area is only rated as having 35 pounds of drag, whereas the venerable 113h, has less than 1/3 of that and is said to have a max drag of 20 pounds. What do you guys think the relationship between drag size and max drag is? After working through these numbers, I am not sure. Thanks.
Andrew
Factor in gearing and in the case of the 49 weak construction for the size of the drag and gears.
Quote from: Keta on January 14, 2013, 03:16:10 AM
Factor in gearing and in the case of the 49 weak construction for the size of the drag and gears.
I have seen spools and gear sleeves fail on the 49, but not gears :-\
You bring up a good point Andrew. Since you're at it, try the Baja Special, this is the one that surprised me the most. The 113H Tank has two more washers than the Baja and it is rated at around 18lb, the Baja is rated at 27lb...with paper thin metal washers.
You will never be able to fit more than three washers in the Baja, we have the option to fit seven in the Tank :-\.
I don't have a 113HN and don't know the numbers. I did just calculate that the 330LD drag washer is 5.479 inches squared. Penn rates it as having a max drag of 17 pounds. Maybe this makes sense, I don't know, but it puts it in the same category as the 49l in terms of HT-100 surface area. I was surprised at the 117l though. 21 square inches of ht-100 surface area is some serious drag. That is equivalent to a sheet of ht-100 material 4.56 X 4.56. That's quite a bit. I have never fished the reel, (all of my fishing is surf fishing and cod fishing) but if you read offshore fishing forums, everyone advises that you gO with a 130VSX and leave the star drags at home if you're after bluefin tuna. I've never felt lever drags had that much of an advantage over star drags. All they do is make it easier to adjust the drag settings. I just love the old penn reels. That's all I use from the surf and from the boat. A few years ago while I was codfishing on a party boat, a guy a few feet from me successfully fought and landed a 170 lb bluefin tuna on a stock penn 113h with ht-100 washers. The reel handled it fine. For bigger fish, the 14/0 -with a line capacity of 4000 yards of 130 lb braid (1000 yards of 130 mono) and a max drag of 35 lbs which I'm sure can go higher into the mid 40s- would seem to me to have no problem subduing a tuna larger than 500 pounds. But, I digress. The only thing that comes to mind is that heat dissipation is easier with one large washer than 3, 5, or 7, smaller ones sandwiched together.
Andrew,
Interesting stuff. I'm glad you took the time to compute these figures. Anyway you look at it, size still matters.
I wonder, though, how effective both sides of the HT100's are? For example, if each HT100 was glued to a keyed washer, would the drag be reduced by half? The washer would still have friction against the eared washers and main gear, providing some drag. I dunno....
About the Baja Special, even though there are four CF drag washers, the first one only uses one side for drag. The other side of the washer rotates with the main gear. Both sides of the other CF washers provide friction against the metal washers. So if we computed the drag area of a Baja Special CF washer and multiplied it x7, I believe that would be the true drag surface area.
This looks like something Robert Janssen might find interesting. Maybe he will chime in here.
I would think factoring in spool diameter has much to do with drag capability. Measuring drag with the spool half full is going to give a significantly different number than full of line. Even though a reel with a 6 inch diameter spool has 2 or 3 times more drag washer area than Sal's 4/0 tank, it may not make much more drag.
Doraboden, good point. Yes the spool size has a lot to do with it, that's why I mentioned the Baja and the Tank. You also make a good point George. By the way, the ears on the Baja's drags don't have any contact, making them smaller than the Tank's.
No I'm not done comparing the two, some of the specs still don't make sense to me ;D.
Back to your statistics Andrew, sorry.
Sal
Quote from: George4741 on January 14, 2013, 05:31:34 AM
Andrew,
Interesting stuff. I'm glad you took the time to compute these figures. Anyway you look at it, size still matters.
I wonder, though, how effective both sides of the HT100's are? For example, if each HT100 was glued to a keyed washer, would the drag be reduced by half? The washer would still have friction against the eared washers and main gear, providing some drag. I dunno....
About the Baja Special, even though there are four CF drag washers, the first one only uses one side for drag. The other side of the washer rotates with the main gear. Both sides of the other CF washers provide friction against the metal washers. So if we computed the drag area of a Baja Special CF washer and multiplied it x7, I believe that would be the true drag surface area.
This looks like something Robert Janssen might find interesting. Maybe he will chime in here.
You're one smart cookie, George ;). Rotation and contact creates drags, I come up with the same number on the Tank with (5+1) and the Baja (3+1)...due to their design, that number is 7. Keep in mind, we can add two more washers in the Tank, not able to add anymore in the Baja.
The Baja has four CF drags, so it is a 1+4.
first of all i'm not an engineer. having said that i think the reasonwhy the new generation of SD reels frompenn generate more drag is because of the new design in their CF washers, these new washers have multiple ears in them which are permanently held in place. with this design there is no way for the CF washers to rotate with the metal washers, not like the older design, where as the probability that the CF washers will rotate in conjunction with the metal ones is high. it is for this reason that i think the new penn SD's generate more drag and also the reason why started buying penns but unfortunately the ones i can afford now are made in china. i hope this explains the big "WHY"... ??? ??? ::) ::)
Quote from: George4741 on January 14, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
The Baja has four CF drags, so it is a 1+4.
You're right George, I do see 4 in the bag, thanks for pointing that out. It is still 7 that make contact though.
Quote from: Mel B on January 14, 2013, 02:23:13 PM
first of all i'm not an engineer. having said that i think the reasonwhy the new generation of SD reels frompenn generate more drag is because of the new design in their CF washers, these new washers have multiple ears in them which are permanently held in place. with this design there is no way for the CF washers to rotate with the metal washers, not like the older design, where as the probability that the CF washers will rotate in conjunction with the metal ones is high. it is for this reason that i think the new penn SD's generate more drag and also the reason why started buying penns but unfortunately the ones i can afford now are made in china. i hope this explains the big "WHY"... ??? ??? ::) ::)
That make perfect sense to me, Mel ;), thanks!
I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 :-\, Maybe I would get ground pepper ;D
Mel,
There's no doubt that the new versadrags generate more drag. I think in several of the reels it is too much. For example, I believe Penn considers the Fathom 12 a 30lb reel, yet lists it at a max drag of 25lb. That's a little more than I would want for 30lb line. Some novices out there will overtighten the drag and have breakoffs. ??? :o >:( (I've done that ;)) Although I'm sure some of larger Fathoms could use the 25lb drag setting. I also worry about damaging gears and other things at higher drag settings. Of course, this is coming from a guy who suggests a 1+7 in their 113H, 6/0 and 9/0. ::)
About affording American made Penns, one word: EBAY! ;) Unless you prefer versadrag reels.
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 14, 2013, 03:02:27 PM
I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 :-\, Maybe I would get ground pepper ;D
I also wonder....
Um, yes...what is going on here...okay...
Yes, you're all on the right track.
The two criteria which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation or mean diameter of friction surface.
So, square inches are good and nice, and they are of course part of it, but not really enough to fully quantify the whole drag scenario thing here.*
About washers:
QuoteSince there are three drag washers in a 49 and each drag washer has 2 sides, I multiplied...
No, don't do that. Since the friction washers are floating and only one side can be presumed to be in relative motion, it is only permissible to use one side for calculative purposes.
About spool radius and gear ratio:
Yes, that matters too. Not only as a result of the greater lever arm and inherent moment of torque of a larger diameter spool vs a smaller one, but it should also be considered that the reel's gear ratio offers a mechanical advantage when operated in reverse- as is the case on an outgoing line.
So really, for a relatively fair, apples-to-apples comparison, i think it would only be possible to measure the force (torque) necessary to turn the gear sleeve against the drag, in this case by fixing the main gear against a locked spool. This would allow one reel's drag to be compared to another on mutual terms. However, it says nothing about how that said reel's drag would compare to another's while in actual use.
About eared drag washers and sliding surfaces:
This matters a lot. By using winged HT-100 washers, the eared steel washers (1/3 of a drag stack) become superfluous and allow that space to be utilized more effectively. Further, the eared washers allow both sides to be used, further increasing the number of sliding surfaces by another 1/3.
Like this:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/patentsidni8HAAAAEBAJpgPA2img1zoom4hlensigACfU3U0cXoaaxt32hgmwppVVUBSeuoGz0Aci1232C1552C6202C320edge0.png)
Which is what we touched on page 4 in another thread, here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4627.msg38513#msg38513
So, a 5+1 or 7+1 drag might be nice, but the same reel with eared washers would be more like 8+1 or 11+1 or however many fit...and which is why i invented this gizmo here
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-24-1.jpg)
...which is a drop-in converter which fits the standard Senator gear and allows use of hexagonal drag washers.
Doc.
*This thread discusses that stuff:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4593.0
.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on January 14, 2013, 08:25:33 PM
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-24.jpg)
...which is a drop-in converter which fits the standard Senator gear and allows use of hexagonal drag washers.
NICE!
Very interesting!
Always entertaining, Doc. I had something similar in mind to extend the gears on the easy access drag plates for the 114H, using a ss sleeve with ears, but not hexagonal. You always amaze me.
Let me know if i need to test it for you ;)
Sal
Very Nice! I have thought about keyed drag washers but an insert never crossed my mind. Lots of talent here! Bob
Doc, that's very innovative!
Quote from: Robert Janssen on January 14, 2013, 08:25:33 PM
About spool radius and gear ratio:
Yes, that matters too. Not only as a result of the greater lever arm and inherent moment of torque of a larger diameter spool vs a smaller one, but it should also be considered that the reel's gear ratio offers a mechanical advantage when operated in reverse- as is the case on an outgoing line.
I also thought the above statement was very likely true from some unscientific tests I did on a 349 and 349H. They have different gear ratios but I installed the same size HT100 drag washers. The drag results were quite different between the two reels. The slower retrieve 349 had the higher drag numbers.
Essentially, the Baja special has 7 friction surfaces where as the normal 5+1 has 6 contact surfaces.
What do I mean? The baja special CF has friction to each surface individually. You may need to sit and think about it as I did.
The others, once drag washer has a total of one contact surface as it will spin with the spinning metal washer against the non-spinning metal washer.
I hope this makes sense.
I like the Baja Special drag method as it utilizes both draw washer surfaces for friction.
The number of functional sides on the washers is 7 on the 1+5 stack, not 6, just like the baja.
I almost bent one of those metal washers from the bajas with my hands, be careful whe handling those ;D.
I just double checked and it's actually 9 surfaces that create friction on the 113H with 1+5 stack, that's without the one for under the gear.
Hi Sal, I'd hate to disagree with my buddies, but I have to disagree. The drag washer in a 113h for example has 5 drag washers in the drag stack, not counting the one under the gear. When the spool spins against the drag, the eared washer rotates while the keyed washers remain stationary. The ht-100 between the washer will eithe remain stationary or quite possibly rotate with the eared washers, and therefore, I have concluded that the actual friction surface of each HT-100 drag washer is essentially one surface instead of two.
This differs from the Baja special where the drag washers rotate and friction is applied on each surface against the stationary keyed washer. I hope it makes sense. If not, I'll draw something up.
Bryan
Never a hard feelings buddy,
I hear what you're saying, let me ask you one question: let's take the CF washer between the keyed and eared washers, when you apply pressure, which washer do you think that CF rotates on, the keyed or the eared. Drag pressure has a lot to do with it, I know the first CF washer is useless at the bottom, but I still believe at a certain setting you'll get 9 working at the same time.....but I've been wrong before :-\
Very good question Sal. I really don't know. I guess it depends on which metal washer and CF combination has the greatest coefficient of friction will dertemine if the drag washer spins with the eared washer or stays stationary with the keyed washer. Lets say that it stationary with the keyed washer, then only one surface has a lower coefficient of friction and that will resist the pressure of the spinning eared washer. There, in this case, you will only have one active drag surface. I'm sites its more like a combination, and it may be that more than a total if one surface is passively adding friction, and quite possibly equalling more than one total surface area, but definitely less than the total of two surface areas.
I have to agree with Bryan. Once a disk has broken free it will spin with whatever washer it is still in contact with, I can't see the disk breaking free on both sides unless their was something else hanging the disk up and that would not be good. I haven't spent a lot of time looking at the Baja Special, but in all honesty does it really matter? Senators with 3+1 non greased disks have been killing fish for generations. A tank is bullet proof and inexpensive, how much drag do you need?
I'm NOT insinuating that a Baja isn't a great reel, I just think a Tank is as great a reel.
Ron
Regarding which washer slides on a floating washer, trust me. It is as said- the rule is that only one surface may be counted.
These arrangements are not unknown to science, and methods with which to calculate them can be found described in engineering literature, not leastly in automotive context.
But here, have a look at it in Penn's own words:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/patentsidni8HAAAAEBAJpgPA9img1zoom4hlensigACfU3U1SQp5vyADs0CXEXvOvk4IDzhAnAAci1052C6542C3932C273edge0.png)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/patentsidni8HAAAAEBAJpgPA9img1zoom4hlensigACfU3U1SQp5vyADs0CXEXvOvk4IDzhAnAAci5182C1462C3962C309edge0.png)
...and that's how it works.
Regardless of how many discs there are and how much drag is needed, it is still just nice to know that this arrangement does what it does in a more efficient, space-saving manner.
And that so much drag might not be needed doesn't really matter. That just goes to say that one needn't tighten the drag star as hard. (Maybe my car has a gazillion horsepower. So what; it doesn't mean that i need to use them all, or even some of them)
Doc.
.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on January 15, 2013, 05:22:18 AM
Regarding which washer slides on a floating washer, trust me. It is as said- the rule is that only one surface may be counted.
Yup, the "float" will even out no mater what the CF washer is doing.
I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 :-\, Maybe I would get ground pepper ;D
[/quote]
maybe kevlar reinforced CF washers will hold up ??? ??? ::) ::)
for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother.
also another way to use multiple eared CF washers is to add more slots to the main gear and then fabricate your own "winged", as per Doc, CF washers. then you can get rid of your eared metal washers. a lot of work though but where's the satisfaction when it's easy work? ::)?? i want to do this to my other SD's but have to get hold of CF sheets strong enough. maybe the >1MM sheets from Dawn will hold ??? only one way to find out ;)
Quote from: Mel B on January 15, 2013, 01:12:40 PM
I do wonder what would happen to the ears on those washers, if I had them in my 14/0 :-\, Maybe I would get ground pepper ;D
maybe kevlar reinforced CF washers will hold up ??? ??? ::) ::)
for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother.
[/quote]
I'm not saying more drag, I'm saying if the eared CF washers of the same material would hold up in larger reels ::) ::).
Personally, I don't believe they would.
hello alto mare! this statement "for me it's not just a matter of more drag, i just want it more progressive and smoother" was not meant as a direct reply to you. it's a general statement. 8)
All is good Mel ;). Hey maybe we should try Kevlar, it would really be a bullet proof reel ;D
Old thread but good reading. Kevlar is way different that carbon fiber. It is some seriously slippery stuff. It needs to be mixed and/or bind it with other fibers to do anything with the stuff. As I understand it.... a drawn Kevlar product like Monofiliment, that it is impossible to tie a knot in it! They just come undone.
I had one of those crazy #### para foils. Heluvalotta fun! All of the lines on that sucker had one single strand of Kevlar in each 5 strand weave. Seven or twelve strands woven into in one line (rope). I know one was green and the rest were white and it cost a fortune. We had to crimp the stuff with some kind of proprietary crimp sleeve. Some kinda strange stuff.