So I hooked up on my first yellow with this reel and did something really weird. As soon as I got bit and put the lever on the ON position it seemed like the dog skipped for 3-5 seconds before then finally grabbing. After that everything else was ok. When I got back home I tested the reel by spinning it and putting in on the ON position and did the same thing. I opened it up and looked the the double dogs and no damage on it. But it looks like only one dog grabs at a time not both. It seems they are don't grab simultanously, rather than just one dog at a time. I checked my other reels by spinning them and putting them on the ON position and they all grab right away. I took a picture of it and will post it in a bit.
Heres a comparison of the dogs. Notice how the dogs on the fathom doesnt align properly compared to the dogs on the talica. I know theres a big price differnce but thats the only pics I have and have work on.
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/robertskrpic/IMAG0421.jpg)]
URL=http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/robertskrpic/media/IMAG0353.jpg.html](http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/robertskrpic/IMAG0353.jpg) (http://[url=http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/robertskrpic/media/IMAG0421.jpg.html)[/url]
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/robertskrpic/IMAG0422.jpg)] (http://[url=http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/robertskrpic/media/IMAG0422.jpg.html)
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 08:31:56 PM
So I hooked up on my first yellow with this reel and did something really weird. As soon as I got bit and put the lever on the ON position it seemed like the dog skipped for 3-5 seconds before then finally grabbing. After that everything else was ok. When I got back home I tested the reel by spinning it and putting in on the ON position and did the same thing. I opened it up and looked the the double dogs and no damage on it. But it looks like only one dog grabs at a time not both. It seems they are don't grab simultanously, rather than just one dog at a time. I checked my other reels by spinning them and putting them on the ON position and they all grab right away. I took a picture of it and will post it in a bit.
1. If the dogs are engaging at all it means your AR bearing is failing. It should be pulled and cleaned to restore it's function.
2. After that, the "ambassedeur" style dogs rarely instantly engage. Their performance can be improved by a slight bending of the "ears" on each dog to grip the ratchet gear better. As well, be sure they are free of all old grease. Penn said that light grease is fine, but really, oil like Corrosion-x is better as it never gets sticky like old grease does. Also, be sure the ratchet gear is dry and that the ears are gripping the ratchet after reassembly. See my post on the Torque 25N for how to replace them.
best
I hope its not the AR bearings because its only been on 3 boat rides and practically new. The dogs did have alot of grease on them from the factory but I cleaned it and added some yamaha grease and oil on the dogs. I also bent the ears a bit but seems like it doesn't grab instantly when I spinned it.
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 09:30:44 PM
I hope its not the AR bearings because its only been on 3 boat rides and practically new. The dogs did have alot of grease on them from the factory but I cleaned it and added some yamaha grease and oil on the dogs. I also bent the ears a bit but seems like it doesn't grab instantly when I spinned it.
Have you tested the AR bearing for proper function?
Also, as above, they are a backup system not intended to be your primary anti-reverse. Their design is not instant.
best
OIC thanks for clarifying the dogs I thought they would grab instantly. I did test the anti reverse and it seemed ok, but I will double check again. How did you get the AR bearing out? Did u use a long socket? I will open it up in a bit.
Also the reel works fine when I'm rock fishing when the drags are half way buttoned down. The problem only happens when I'm fly lining and fish takes line and put in on the ON position and it skips.
I was able to get the AR bearing out and it grabs but slips at certain spots. Is this normal or its bad?
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 10:03:34 PM
I was able to get the AR bearing out and it grabs but slips at certain spots. Is this normal or its bad?
The AR bearing should never slip in the slightest with the exception of possibly when the drag is absolutely hammered down and it is under the heaviest load.
Not to worry, it's probably just excessive grease. Or, you let salt get in there. Can you take photos of it?
Soak it in a degreaser (wd-40, white vinegar, brake cleaner what have you). Let it completely dry, then lube only with a light oil like corrosion-x. All you need is a little.
Then retest it and report back.
Good luck, john
ps, if that simple fix doesn't do it then contact penn and they will probably send out a new AR for free.
I just put everything back together. The skips are still there but better than before after cleaning the AR bearing. I just cleaned it. With a Q tip. I didn't soak it at all though. Maybe I should take it apart again it was easy anyways. I'll take pics of it, I'm just having trouble uploading zip files to my photobucket. But i'll do it as soon as I figure it out.
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 10:47:31 PM
I just put everything back together. The skips are still there but better than before after cleaning the AR bearing. I just cleaned it. With a Q tip. I didn't soak it at all though. Maybe I should take it apart again it was easy anyways. I'll take pics of it, I'm just having trouble uploading zip files to my photobucket. But i'll do it as soon as I figure it out.
You're on the right track. Just get all of the grease out of the bearing. Then just a little oil on the inside and outside of the "sleeve" that goes inside it.
best
How long do u typically soak AR bearing for? I used brake cleaner BTW. I dont have corrosion x but I do have Oust met oil, shimano oil, tsi 301, and daiwa oil. I uploaded the AR bearing for you.
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 11:36:56 PM
How long do u typically soak AR bearing for? I used brake cleaner BTW. I dont have corrosion x but I do have Oust met oil, shimano oil, tsi 301, and daiwa oil. I uploaded the AR bearing for you.
If it is still shipping, clean it a little more (though it looks pretty clean). If it continues to slip then Penn may have to take a look at it.
You do not want a super fast oil in there (a tiny bit of the Daiwa stuff is fine) and just put a little on the sleeve.
For the dogs, just be sure when you replace the main gear and are ready to re-assemble that they are gripping the ratchet gear.
best
I put everything back together and its still the same. Do you think it could be the pinion gear and the spool by any chance? Since they come apart from each other when going to ON and OFF position?
Quote from: Reelz on April 21, 2013, 12:53:32 AM
I put everything back together and its still the same. Do you think it could be the pinion gear and the spool by any chance? Since they come apart from each other when going to ON and OFF position?
No, that would grind like crazy, they move quite a bit to disengage, it really is one or the other.
Try this: Put the AR bearing on it's sleeve before closing the reel and tell me if it slips?
I just tried it and seems to work ok. For some reason I can feel it slipping when I turn it with my fingeres when AR bearing is out, but I don't feel it slipping when turned by handle.
Great, put it back together and you sound like you are good to go.
These AR use plastic springs which should be quite reliable. But if they are over greased they can gum up and slip.
best
What do you think is causing the slipping? I dont think this is normal. None of the reels I have does this. I'm going to have to go try same reel out at the store to see if it does the same thing.
Quote from: Reelz on April 21, 2013, 05:55:23 AM
What do you think is causing the slipping? I dont think this is normal. None of the reels I have does this. I'm going to have to go try same reel out at the store to see if it does the same thing.
If you cleaned grease out of the AR bearing and it is no longer slipping then that was the culprit.
This is quite common when there is more grease than ideal in the bearing.
best
OIC, thanks again john for answering my questions, I really appreciate it. I just can't get over the fact that when I hook up on a fish and put it on the ON position it skips. Its very unusual, I never encountered this problem before in any of my reels.
Quote from: Reelz on April 21, 2013, 12:53:32 AMI put everything back together and its still the same. Do you think it could be the pinion gear and the spool by any chance? Since they come apart from each other when going to ON and OFF position?
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 09:44:38 PMAlso the reel works fine when I'm rock fishing when the drags are half way buttoned down. The problem only happens when I'm fly lining and fish takes line and put in on the ON position and it skips.
I believe the issue your experiencing could be because the tip of the pinion gear is squared, as is the clutch plate located on the right side of the spool. What I think could be occuring is, when fly lining and paying out line to locate fish at the required depth, when you want to engage the lever to the retrieve position (ON) to set your hook, there can be a cause for misalignment of the pinion gear and it's clutch plate. The skip you are experiencing could well be the two not immediately realigning, not helped if your quarry is taking line at the same time.
At times you can engage the lever from freespool into retrieve and feel a slight resistance when cranking on the handle. It can be there until you stop cranking - or try to back wind - and this is where I have clearly heard a 'clunk' sound which causes the pinion gear and clutch plate to fully engage with eachother where the resistance previously felt would disappear.
I serviced a FTH15 for my friend recently and it had a defected ARB. My first thoughts were it was over lubricated. I cleaned it out and retested it while lube free and the ARB still wouldn't bite onto the clutch sleeve which passes through it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98-Nl1fE2yY
Good to see the ARB's can be pressed out via the socket method. I was worried to try it myself as I feared for the strength of the cast aluminium side plate. If it was my reel I would of attempted it, but I'm more cautious minded dealing with someone elses reel. I had cause for concern about the socket the ARB is vise pressed into, as this socket helps support the inside of the right side plate. I was concerned by the possiblity of it being stress fractured. I noticed on the schematics the ARB hasn't got it's own key#, though, the right side plate the ARB is housed into (key#1), is described as an 'assembly'. It could mislead anyone wanting to order said ARB and are asked for a key#. People might be told to order a new right side plate as well. :-\
Actually, the ARB on the side plate is supposed to be fixed permanently so that you can't remove it. Penn doesn't offer an ARB, only he entire side plate. This isn't a design I like but it is what it is. On a similar point: The small Shimano Tekotas (size 500 and 600) have a problem with their ARBs as well: If they get corroded into the side plate, it is almost impossible to remove them because pushing from the handle side will destroy the ARB. This isn't the case with the large Tekotas (700 and 800) because there is a lip that can be used to push out a bad ARB.
Quote from: akfish on April 21, 2013, 03:26:44 PM
Actually, the ARB on the side plate is supposed to be fixed permanently so that you can't remove it. Penn doesn't offer an ARB, only he entire side plate. This isn't a design I like but it is what it is. On a similar point: The small Shimano Tekotas (size 500 and 600) have a problem with their ARBs as well: If they get corroded into the side plate, it is almost impossible to remove them because pushing from the handle side will destroy the ARB. This isn't the case with the large Tekotas (700 and 800) because there is a lip that can be used to push out a bad ARB.
I am unaware that it is supposed to be permanent. It pushes out under hand pressure in a Torque but that makes sense if it is sold as an assembly.
best
Just took another look at your trq 25N tutorial, and yes, those ARB's with 'shoulders' are easily removable, more importantly, replaceable. It's disappointing Penn haven't gone down the same route with their fathom range. Cost aside, would it of been difficult for them to machine the boss on the right side plate with recesses to accomadate the ARB's shoulders?
O wait, I just realized something looking at this thread and the photos.
If that smooth shoulder ARB popped out of it's housing easily then there is a problem that may explain everything. It should be unremovable unless you create your own bearing puller. The smooth sides have to grip the receptacle enough to withstand the drag. If it was easily removable that may be the source of the slippage and there may be a problem with the tolerances.
Contact Penn at: http://www.stripersonline.com/f/6643/penn-fishing and their service manager will help you trouble shoot and give you instructions for sending it back if need be.
best
Quote from: Fish-aholic on April 21, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: Reelz on April 21, 2013, 12:53:32 AMI put everything back together and its still the same. Do you think it could be the pinion gear and the spool by any chance? Since they come apart from each other when going to ON and OFF position?
Quote from: Reelz on April 20, 2013, 09:44:38 PMAlso the reel works fine when I'm rock fishing when the drags are half way buttoned down. The problem only happens when I'm fly lining and fish takes line and put in on the ON position and it skips.
I believe the issue your experiencing could be because the tip of the pinion gear is squared, as is the clutch plate located on the right side of the spool. What I think could be occuring is, when fly lining and paying out line to locate fish at the required depth, when you want to engage the lever to the retrieve position (ON) to set your hook, there can be a cause for misalignment of the pinion gear and it's clutch plate. The skip you are experiencing could well be the two not immediately realigning, not helped if your quarry is taking line at the same time.
At times you can engage the lever from freespool into retrieve and feel a slight resistance when cranking on the handle. It can be there until you stop cranking - or try to back wind - and this is where I have clearly heard a 'clunk' sound which causes the pinion gear and clutch plate to fully engage with eachother where the resistance previously felt would disappear.
I serviced a FTH15 for my friend recently and it had a defected ARB. My first thoughts were it was over lubricated. I cleaned it out and retested it while lube free and the ARB still wouldn't bite onto the clutch sleeve which passes through it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98-Nl1fE2yY
Good to see the ARB's can be pressed out via the socket method. I was worried to try it myself as I feared for the strength of the cast aluminium side plate. If it was my reel I would of attempted it, but I'm more cautious minded dealing with someone elses reel. I had cause for concern about the socket the ARB is vise pressed into, as this socket helps support the inside of the right side plate. I was concerned by the possiblity of it being stress fractured. I noticed on the schematics the ARB hasn't got it's own key#, though, the right side plate the ARB is housed into (key#1), is described as an 'assembly'. It could mislead anyone wanting to order said ARB and are asked for a key#. People might be told to order a new right side plate as well. :-\
Thats what I thought too when I took a closer look at it, but wasn't positive if thats the problem. If it was the problem, how are u suppose to fix it? The only thing I can think of is send it back, but I'm wondering if they're gonna charge me. Its only been on 3 boat rides and practically new.
My AR bearing isn't as bad as seen on your video though, mine only skips a tiny bit.
Quote from: johndtuttle on April 21, 2013, 07:09:41 PM
O wait, I just realized something looking at this thread and the photos.
If that smooth shoulder ARB popped out of it's housing easily then there is a problem that may explain everything. It should be unremovable unless you create your own bearing puller. The smooth sides have to grip the receptacle enough to withstand the drag. If it was easily removable that may be the source of the slippage and there may be a problem with the tolerances.
Contact Penn at: http://www.stripersonline.com/f/6643/penn-fishing and their service manager will help you trouble shoot and give you instructions for sending it back if need be.
best
I'll try to contact them, I hope they will be able to help.
John, I can only speak from my own experiences regarding the fathom 15 sizes, and there was not one ARB, out of about 10 reels serviced where I was able to remotely remove it by hand. A contrast compared to penn reels fitted with shouldered ARB's. I like having the option to remove as I can give it a good thorough clean.
The defect ARB I found, and made a short video of, was definately not rotating inside it's boss when I checked it. I wonder if there's a lot more defects in circulation that haven't been accounted for, but are not being picked up by owners because of the backup mechanisms doing it's job? :-\
Reelz, if your ARB is at all skipping, I would definately raise the issue with Penn after having seen such little use. See how Penn offer to deal with you and see if they can rectify your issue. Keeps us updated. ;)
I just registered and I can't send pm's at this moment, I guess I need 15 post to do so. I pmed them friday night at bloodydecks but no response from them. I don't know if there off weekends or what?
Quote from: Reelz on April 21, 2013, 08:51:18 PM
I just registered and I can't send pm's at this moment, I guess I need 15 post to do so. I pmed them friday night at bloodydecks but no response from them. I don't know if there off weekends or what?
lol ;)
Of course they are off on weekends. :D
No need to PM on the Stripers site. Just make a post and tell 'em your problem where it seems the ARB is slipping in it's housing in the side plate and that it is easy to remove by hand. They either know about it all already or will likely issue a "call tag" for your reel to be shipped back to them.
best
Quote from: Fish-aholic on April 21, 2013, 08:44:43 PM
John, I can only speak from my own experiences regarding the fathom 15 sizes, and there was not one ARB, out of about 10 reels serviced where I was able to remotely remove it by hand. A contrast compared to penn reels fitted with shouldered ARB's. I like having the option to remove as I can give it a good thorough clean.
The defect ARB I found, and made a short video of, was definately not rotating inside it's boss when I checked it. I wonder if there's a lot more defects in circulation that haven't been accounted for, but are not being picked up by owners because of the backup mechanisms doing it's job? :-\
Reelz, if your ARB is at all skipping, I would definately raise the issue with Penn after having seen such little use. See how Penn offer to deal with you and see if they can rectify your issue. Keeps us updated. ;)
Yes that type should require a press of some kind to get it in, and a puller to get it out. Otherwise they will rotate in their receptacle which equals a failure of the function.
The vendor of the bearing is probably off their specs by just a few thousandth of an inch or so (which is more likely than the housing being molded to the wrong dimension).
best
lol ;)
Of course they are off on weekends. :D
No need to PM on the Stripers site. Just make a post and tell 'em your problem where it seems the ARB is slipping in it's housing in the side plate and that it is easy to remove by hand. They either know about it all already or will likely issue a "call tag" for your reel to be shipped back to them.
best
[/quote]
Oic, I just made a thread on there. THanks