I've been fishing fairly regulary off the boats for nearly 15 years, but just don't understand what the heck makes a good reel setup. I read through the articles posted here on rod balance and drag, but basic theory is just missing. Whenever I look over my shoulder it always looks like the guys catching the most fish have nearly frsh water rigs going for strippers and big fluke.
So I also read Alan's posting on 20 lb reels, and I just don't get it. It seems my reels, which are Penn GTI 320's, seem to not even make his list. Are these reels too big for stripers, and bottom fishing?
My two basic rods are a Seeker BA 30-7 which says it specs at 25(30) 40lb. So even a nice sized 35 inch Striper will weigh in at about 30 pounds. The drag should be something about 10 pounds?
I was using a braided filiment with a 20lb mono shocker on it.
The other rod, is the new one, which is an Ugly Stick tiger Lite "jigging" which specks as a 7'0" 14-40 lb line. its a couple of inches shorter than my Seeker, but much lighter. I just have felt that I can't adequarely feel fish bites, especially bottom fish, but also stripers.
What would be a good real set up for normal party boat fishing? These are the types of conversations I'd always hoped to have in the tackel stores, but these guys just either can't speak or won't pass on the hobby, which is wierd. When you go to B&H the help can't wait to tell you all about the equiptment.
I'm not much of a fisherman either. I seem to have never figured out what I'm feeling for with bottom fishing. The weight is on the bottom and the bait is suspened a few inches up. When the fish bites, who do you feel that? The weight is acting to absorb the light nibbles, especially of a porgy.
Ruben
Your 320GTIs will work fine for both of those rods. My wife has the Seeker and she fishes a 330 GTi with straight 40 pound mono and loves it. Alan has great tutorials on all of the GTi series and I recommend reading them.
The 320GTi is about the same size spool as the Jigmaster but with bigger internals. This size reel has killed lots and lots of stripers and fluke.
I'm not certain how you fish, but if I was to setup your gear I would do the full build on Alan's tutorial. I would remove one of the level winds and put that reel on the Seeker. It will be the better casting rig. The other reel would go on the Tiger Lite for jigging and soaking bait on the bottom. The only maintenance difference would be the bottom reel would get greased spool bearings and the caster would get 321 on opened bearings. Both reels would be spooled with 40 pound braid and a 30 pound top shot. The top shot can be quite long because this spool holds a ton of 40 pound braid. The factory HT-100 drags are more than adequate for this application, just grease them and go.
Any advantage anyone has on catching fish with these rigs will be from bait presentation and terminal tackle selection, your gear just won't be out fished for this type of fishing, I don't care how much money anyone spends.
Ron
For now just keep the level wind, the thing that goes back and forth to keep the line level on your spool.
I'm not familiar with your fishing but you might want to get a smaller reel. If you have to have level wind something like a Penn Fathom FTH15LW, and a 20lb rated rod, something like a Seeker BA 270-7′ or BA 80-7′C. Fill the spool about 1/3 of the way with 50lb Dacron then just short of full with 60lb-60lb Spectra leaving enough room for a 10'-20' 20lb or 25lb mono or fluro topshot. the shorter your topshot the more sensitive your rig will be. You can also hold the line just ahead of the reel with your finger tips for better feel.
My two basic rods are a Seeker BA 30-7 which says it specs at 25(30) 40lb. So even a nice sized 35 inch Striper will weigh in at about 30
pounds. The drag should be something about 10 pounds?
I was using a braided filiment with a 20lb mono shocker on it.
You are fishing a 30lb class rod with your reel set for 30lb line but you are fishing 20lb line, it's slightly out of balance.
Idealy you should have a 30lb topshot (shocker) with this rig. I generally do the opposite, for 20lb I fish a 20lb rated rod, 6-8 lbs of drag and 25lb short fluro topshots most of the time.
The weight is on the bottom and the bait is suspended a few inches up. When the fish bites, who do you feel that? The weight is acting to
absorb the light nibbles, especially of a porgy.
Actually the weight does not interfere with the sensitivity unless it's between the rod and your bait.
I know a lot of people will most likely slap me here but...have you ever thought about a spinning rod and reel? If you are staying with your current setups you will be alright. When bottom fishing with the spectra line I would recommend a 10 or 15 foot floro leader. Maybe #40 or #50. This will give the mates secure grab on the line. When in doubt and fishing on a party boat always go heavy. Lighten up on the leader as conditions predict. You want control of line and fish so in those circumstances go heavy and watch your line...NO SLACK!!
Bob
Quote from: BMITCH on May 12, 2013, 02:51:11 PM
I know a lot of people will most likely slap me here but...have you ever thought about a spinning rod and reel? If you are staying with your current setups you will be alright. When bottom fishing with the spectra line I would recommend a 10 or 15 foot floro leader. Maybe #40 or #50. This will give the mates secure grab on the line. When in doubt and fishing on a party boat always go heavy. Lighten up on the leader as conditions predict. You want control of line and fish so in those circumstances go heavy and watch your line...NO SLACK!!
Bob
SPINNERS!!!! ;D
X2 on watching your line and no slack.
Not sure about 320. I measure my 310 max drag around 9lb.
So goes by the 30% theory, I'll be using main line around 30lb, with a rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness, or 30lb for in case I thumb the spool when desperated.
Hi Ruben,
Can you draw or post a picture of your rigging? Sensitivity could be based on how you are rigging, including weighs used.
For myself, I like to use the lightest rod possible for the weight, not necessarily the line class. I have 20# or 30# braid on my reel that sits on a 15# rod.
As for ugly sticks, I don't like them when fishing where I need to feel the bite. I think the rod is much too heavy. Try go to a pure graphite or graphite tipped rod.
Bryan
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 06:08:25 AM
I'm not much of a fisherman either. I seem to have never figured out what I'm feeling for with bottom fishing. The weight is on the bottom and the bait is suspened a few inches up. When the fish bites, who do you feel that? The weight is acting to absorb the light nibbles, especially of a porgy. Ruben
Ruben: your problem in what you are supposed to feel is that you have the weight on the bottom. When the weight is on the bottom there is slack in the line so you cannot feel those light nibbles. Let your line out until the weight hits the bottom then crank up a turn so that the weight keeps your line tight. Then you will be able to feel the bites. You have to monitor the depth constantly so that you always keep the weigh slightly suspended above the bottom. Dominick
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 06:08:25 AM
My two basic rods are a Seeker BA 30-7 which says it specs at 25(30) 40lb. So even a nice sized 35 inch Striper will weigh in at about 30 pounds. The drag should be something about 10 pounds?
I was using a braided filiment with a 20lb mono shocker on it.
One point. The lb rating of the rod has nothing to do with how much the fish weighs. It's about the lb test of the line used. The Seeker is built for and fishes best with 30 lb line. The drag should be set for 1/4 - 1/3 of the line lb test, so with 30 lb test, 10 lbs of drag is OK. For 20 lb test, however, it should be 5-7 lbs of drag.
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 09:16:20 PM
I was just looking an a Shimono reel with a level drag and no "level wind" bar, with 40 lb braid on a 20lb mono stock for a new set up. It was a total of $172, and now you've made reconsider. It's a belated birthday present from a friend, but I haven't picked it out yet. It is supposed to be below $150 so I'll need to toss in the extra few dolloars. It would be a set up for the lighter pole, but your suggestion #30 on the mono?
As for the fishing technique, the weight is always between the bait and the reel. The weigh is 6 to 8 inches reelside of the hook.
I just made the Penn suggestion based on your using Penn and Seeker products, Shimano makes good gear too. I'd fish your current Seeker 30lb with 10lbs of drag.
Try using a slider on your weight and the lightest weight that will keep you on the bottom.
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 09:43:43 PM
What kind of line is that? I know of two kinds of line - Mono and Braid :(
Dacron is a braided line that is not as slick as Spectra braid and costs considerably less.
The advantage to your Seeker rod (which is a fantastic rod, by the way) is it's backbone strength and castability. It is really designed for casting light baits to yellowtail and albacore and such, but can cast to a striper or blue working the surface just as well.
I really like the new Tiger lights and am not sure if Brian has had a chance to use them. They have proven to be really sensitive and quite a rod for the price.
I have fished with sliding egg sinkers between the bait often, but never on a party boat. I'm not sure how the East Coast guys do it but I would recomend the sinker on the bottom of the main line about a foot or so above a 4" perfection loop with the hook ran through it and another loop and hook about a foot above that. That has killed fish off the bottom for decades and I don't ever see it not being the way to soak bait on the bottom.
If you are not a solid caster then the level wind is not a bad thing. What was wrong with the reel that you needed repair?
Your Penn 160 will work just fine for your type of fishing. Give it a good rebuild according to this forum, spool it with 20-30 pound mono and go fishing.
If you will allow me, it sounds like you have been doing quite a bit of fishing without a lot of knowledge about equipment and technique. If that is the case you have come to the right place. Let us know what is happening and we will get you on the right track to be successful.
Ron
Regarding the ugly sticks. I used to fish them. The ones with the clear fiberglass tips. They are strong. Very strong. I have yet to see one break. But they are not very sensitive in feeling the bite. When selecting rods, I try to go with a buddy. I hold the rod and place the rod tip on my friend's neck and ask him to talk. If I feel the vibration of him talking, I'll consider the rod. I have not found the same sensitivity with ugly sticks.
Regarding the tigers, I know a lot of people fish them and have not heard a negative thing about them
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 05:20:45 AM
Ah, interesting, because cating is one of the areas I so need to improve on. What aspect of it makes it easy to cast?
Strip off a little more line than you are trying to cast and put tape around the rest of the line on the spool, wind the line back on and start casting. This reduces your backlashes considerably. Once you can cast remove the tape and go catch some fish.
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
Quote from: Nuvole on May 12, 2013, 03:59:40 PM
Not sure about 320. I measure my 310 max drag around 9lb.
So goes by the 30% theory, I'll be using main line around 30lb, with a rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness, or 30lb for in case I thumb the spool when desperated.
I don't understand. The GTi 320 I think has a 13lb max drag? So what is a Quotea rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness
Take the rating from the manufacturer with a pinch of salt.
For reel I do my drag test at with 1/2 spool of line. For rod slowly I mount the reel on, and did load test with a drag check and see what load does it take to bent the rod 90 degree.
A power curve example from fox sports
(http://www.foxsportfishing.com/uploads/prod-images/Fox-PowerCurve.jpg)
Quote from: Nuvole on May 13, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
Quote from: Nuvole on May 12, 2013, 03:59:40 PM
Not sure about 320. I measure my 310 max drag around 9lb.
So goes by the 30% theory, I'll be using main line around 30lb, with a rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness, or 30lb for in case I thumb the spool when desperated.
I don't understand. The GTi 320 I think has a 13lb max drag? So what is a Quotea rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness
Take the rating from the manufacturer with a pinch of salt.
For reel I do my drag test at with 1/2 spool of line. For rod slowly I mount the reel on, and did load test with a drag check and see what load does it take to bent the rod 90 degree.
X2
A thing to remember, which took me a long time as I'm a bit slow, is that the line rating itself is not interesting as long as it's higher than your drag setting. It's the drag + rod rating that's of interest. You can use a 60lbs line on a 20lbs setup and still have it balanced as long as your drag setting is correct and in balance with the rod.
Hi, you have been getting blitzed with good information. That said, some of us are visual learners. I thought I would at least give some pics to illustrate what I think others are saying. I hope it is helpful. Gents, please correct me if my pics misrepresent what you are trying to tell him. None of the pics are mine, just google grabs:
Egg sinker (described in Ron's 'Noyb' reply). Used in carolina rig, etc.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/BogueSounder/eggsinker_zps1291ddfe.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/BogueSounder/media/eggsinker_zps1291ddfe.jpg.html)
Ron's rig suggestion I think:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/BogueSounder/bottomrig_zps5ac45218.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/BogueSounder/media/bottomrig_zps5ac45218.jpg.html)
Keta's weight slider:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/BogueSounder/fishweightonslider_zps1736fe79.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/BogueSounder/media/fishweightonslider_zps1736fe79.jpg.html)
I don't fish on party boats, so I don't have much to offer from that perspective. I do use the slider that Keta mentioned on my boat, and from shore. They work well in bottom fishing applications in the southeastern US. I second using the lightest weight possible for the conditions. Try chatting with the guys that are catching all the fish on your party boats...maybe on the way in, not during the bite? Must be some etiquette there?
Good luck,
Mark
Ruben,
Another thought regarding terminal tackle and rigs. This site is no doubt the best place on the interwebs to discuss everything rod and reel. However, there are people on here from everywhere that fish for every species imaginable in many different ways...which is part this site's beauty. But, you may learn more regarding the specifics of tackle rigging from a more regional forum? I assume you are in the northeast based on your name?
Stripers online may have some good info for you to search as well, for example:
http://www.stripersonline.com/t/601168/what-rig-for-bottom-fishing-party-boat-in-the-cape
You may already know all this, so ignore my posts if so. Hope you get on em. The bite is on fire down here.
Mark
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on May 13, 2013, 05:23:35 AM
If I feel the vibration of him talking, I'll consider the rod. I have not found the same sensitivity with ugly sticks.
Regarding the tigers, I know a lot of people fish them and have not heard a negative thing about them
Interesting ...
X2
Good tip Bryan! Never thought of that...
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 05:26:00 PM
Quote from: Nuvole on May 13, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 12, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
Quote from: Nuvole on May 12, 2013, 03:59:40 PM
Not sure about 320. I measure my 310 max drag around 9lb.
So goes by the 30% theory, I'll be using main line around 30lb, with a rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness, or 30lb for in case I thumb the spool when desperated.
I don't understand. The GTi 320 I think has a 13lb max drag? So what is a Quotea rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness
Take the rating from the manufacturer with a pinch of salt.
For reel I do my drag test at with 1/2 spool of line. For rod slowly I mount the reel on, and did load test with a drag check and see what load does it take to bent the rod 90 degree.
A power curve example from fox sports
This is not helping becasue I didn't help the original statement.
What is a Quotea rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness
?
Think of the rods line rating in lbs. When loaded with that weight the rod bends in 90 degrees. That is the rods power curve. A rod rated 20lbs bends 90 degrees when loaded with a weight of 20lbs.
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 13, 2013, 05:26:09 PM
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: Bryan Young on May 13, 2013, 05:23:35 AM
If I feel the vibration of him talking, I'll consider the rod. I have not found the same sensitivity with ugly sticks.
Regarding the tigers, I know a lot of people fish them and have not heard a negative thing about them
Interesting ...
X2
Good tip Bryan! Never thought of that...
There's a lot I look at in rod selection. # of guides, guide placeent, alignment on spline, .
I will also bring in my reel that I intend to use with the rod and ask if I can string the rod to see the bend and also attach the intended weight on the line to see the relaxed bend. I asked the sales person to hold the line and make like a fish so I could see the bend and reactio of the rod through my hands. I probably look at a at least 50 rods before I will buy one the curse of a previsous rod-wrapper.
Quote from: BogueSounder on May 13, 2013, 04:01:57 PM
Keta's weight slider:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/BogueSounder/fishweightonslider_zps1736fe79.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/BogueSounder/media/fishweightonslider_zps1736fe79.jpg.html)
That's what I was referring to. I use 2 beads and a snap swivel rather than the plastic slider and a 36" mono dropper from the slider to the lead.
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 11:39:19 PM
This is not helping becasue I didn't help the original statement.
What is a rod with power curve(90 degree) slight more than 10lb for lightness?
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 13, 2013, 11:39:19 PM
Think of the rods line rating in lbs. When loaded with that weight the rod bends in 90 degrees. That is the rods power curve. A rod rated 20lbs bends 90 degrees when loaded with a weight of 20lbs.
First, forget everything you ever learned in school and realize that rod rating was established by completely uneducated beach bums looking for a marketing ploy. That may not be absolutely true but it will put you in the right mindset. If you start worrying about Watts law you'll never ever catch a single fish.
Also, the 90 degree comment isn't exactly true. Rods have several characteristics that are important. Unfortunatly different manufacturers use the terms that describe those characteristics interchangeably. You will hear and read terms like power, speed and line rating. I have found that many of them mean very little more than a general guide.
If you notice, the Tiger lite and Seeker you started this thread with have overlapping line ratings, but very little else in common. They both will pick up a 30 pound weight and bend to 90 degrees at totally different places on the rod.
Ron
Ruben, carbon fiber drags can take the heat, and drag grease makes it smoother especially if the drags get wet. Drag grease keeps water out of the fibers of the drag washer.
Lets start with felt, cork, and canvas. They can only take so much heat then starts to burn or glaze. This will result in loosing drag, kind of like hot brakes for your car. Then if water gets into the fibers, when the drag heats up, the water expands making high spots making the drag jerky. Lie warped rotors for your disk brakes.
Hope this helps.
Carbon fiber is superior for it's wear resistance and lack of friction as opposed to it's strength. It's weave also maintains grease well. As an added bonus it doesn't absorb heat well nor does it have significantly different friction characteristics when it does get hot. Formula one race cars use carbon fiber brake disks and pads and we use carbon fiber drag disks for the same reason.
Ron
Apologies, I meant to type lack of degradation of friction. Greased carbon fiber also has little to no difference between initial friction and running friction. This is vitally important, especially for larger fish.
Ron
The CF material was designed for automatic transmission plates and is far superior to the drag materials of the past.
Quote from: Keta on May 14, 2013, 01:18:42 PM
The CF material was designed for automatic transmission plates and is far superior to the drag materials of the past.
I understand that the HT-100 carbon fiber comes from jet aicraft brake linings.
Quote from: mrbrklyn on May 17, 2013, 02:16:22 AM
AH - Yes, that would be true. I spoke to the smoothdrag people. It just amazes me. How does someone make a business out of making something as obscure as replacement washers of fishing reels?
Ruben
That's a fair question. What amazes me is how thousands of Stella's (spinning reels) get sold at better than $1,200 a pop? I guess the answer is there is a heck of a lot of money tied up in this little "hobby."
As to Smooth Drag, I've bought her washers in not only the US, but several shops in both Singapore and Thailand and I'm sure she supplies many more. She's Global!
As to original drag washer materials...Alan went through an old Penn 940 for me and it had original leather washers. Of leather, canvas, cork and felt, I think I've had the best luck with canvas and felt, though canvas doesn't like water intrusion either (original TLD's would lock up tight when the drag got wet). That said, CF has been night and day improvement. It will be interesting to see what comes next in the evolution...
I usually come home from a grouper trip with bruised up arm pits and ribs from setting the hook and cranking them up from below while the other three on the boat might catch one fish to my four.
I drop the line down and raise the rod top slightly then crank up the slack. Next I watch how much the boat is rocking and raising with the swells while keeping my line just snug to the bottom. Then I take up as much lime as I can so I'm still comfy when my side of the boat is highest and the rod tip is lowest. I basically do a miniature jigging motion between feeling the weight and not feeling it. As soon as I feel a night I set the hook as hard as I can and start cranking. I'm not jigging the weight off the bottom and not giving it slack as much as just going from tight to not tight while raising and lowering the rod with the rocking of the boat. Hope that makes sense. Not tooting my own horn but I catch more fish this way than anyone on the boat with the same bait and set ups.
For sea bass and porgy, I use a self built Lamiglas Musky rod (2-8oz.) with 30 lb. braid. The reel is either a Calcutta/Cardiff 400 or an Abu 7000. I can feel everything with this outfit and it doesn't beat you up.
I rig a bank sinker, with two hooks (hi-low). I keep the hook leaders short for better control and quicker hook sets. I tie a knot in the sinker drop so I can break the sinker off if I get snagged. This rig (20-30 lb fluorocarbon, total length 24") is tied directly to the braid using a ball bearing swivel.
Fluke are a different story. You need flexibility to avoid pulling the bait out of the fluke's mouth when they follow the bait. For party boat fishing I use an IGFA 20 lb class black with a moderate action and 20 lb mono. The rig is a fish finder with a 3' foot leader. The reel is any conventional depending on the size of fish anticipated.