I'm not going to stir up a hornet's nest here by asking what is the preferred drag system but I am a bit curious to the differences, mechanics wise, between the two. I've only handled star drag reels before but am thinking of getting a smaller lever drag reel, mostly out of curiosity. Not for casting, mostly jigging and stuff.
But...
- Is there any big difference in reliability between the two?
- Service wise, is there anything you should be aware of when getting a lever drag reel?
- Last, if you only were to look at the mechanics of the reel and it's drag system and disregard any individual preferences one way or the other, what is the best system (if there is any)?
I've read a lot of heated discussions about lever vs. star drag and I realize that it's mostly down to personal preferences of the fisherman. It's like discussing spinning vs. conventional reels. But if there is any important stone cold facts and differences that you should be aware of before going lever drag I am very interested in hearing about it from you guys.
/Karl
It use to be star's casted much better than lever's but now the levers are almost as good as stars for casting. Only the best casters will get a small lack of distance from lever's. Levers are best for trolling or if you want/need to ajust the drag during a fight.
So, is there any draw backs at all from modern lever drag reels?
What I am drawn to is the total (apparently) control of the drag, even when you adjust it you can be back at a preset seconds later.
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 19, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
- Is there any big difference in reliability between the two?
- Service wise, is there anything you should be aware of when getting a lever drag reel?
- Last, if you only were to look at the mechanics of the reel and it's drag system and disregard any individual preferences one way or the other, what is the best system (if there is any)?
/Karl
1. Yes, star drags are more reliable. They use a simpler mechanism for applying drag separate from the spool that is less prone to mechanical failure.
2. The pinion bearing gets crunched in most lever drag designs (the Accurate dual drag minimizes this) and is a frequent source of maintenance.
3. Neither system is superior it is simply apples and oranges. A star drag is more infinitely adjustable in small increments, a lever is easier for returning to a preset. A lever drag in the larger reel sizes has more surface area (the same size as the spool) and so produces more max drag.
The issue is that the entire drag mechanism is mounted on the spool of a lever drag. This additional weight to the spool limits the design for casting lighter objects.
In the smallest reel sizes a star drag is superior for casting among conventional reels. This is why the bass guys use them and there are few super tiny lever drags intended for casting light lures though there are some (ie JM pe2) for bottom fishing. Lever drags have pretty much completely taken over true big game fishing as they put out more max drag and there is not much casting to worry about.
What it really comes down to is what are your line and drag capacity needs for your target species. My rule is that if a star drag can get it done it usually is the better choice. But when you need more drag than they provide then lever drags start truly shining.
best
Thanks for your answer John! Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.
Guess I have to try it out for myself and see how I like it. Been oggling the Okuma Cedros LD for a while.
Out of the two, I prefer the ones that I have the most ;)
Here are a few:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/004-19.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/004-19.jpg.html)
That is some serious bling bling.. :) Love it!
Thanks for the pic!
Just a joke Karl, have you noticed I don't have one lever drag?. A lot of guys here like those better though :-\.
I guess you'll need to try it for yourself.
Yes I guess I do. :)
If you want to have a lever drag reel in the lower drag range (15-20's), is there any good old school reels you can look for, or should you go for a more modern reel? I've been looking at a lot of the smaller modern lever drag reels, Avet, Accurate, Okuma, etc, but if I can go old school that's what I want. :)
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 19, 2013, 09:00:27 PM
Yes I guess I do. :)
If you want to have a lever drag reel in the lower drag range (15-20's), is there any good old school reels you can look for, or should you go for a more modern reel? I've been looking at a lot of the smaller modern lever drag reels, Avet, Accurate, Okuma, etc, but if I can go old school that's what I want. :)
PENN and SHIMANO are very good time proven reels in levers.
I just don't see the benefit of lever. I have boated big Marlin on stars and levers. The majority of my big fish have been sharks. I have never felt that adjusting a star was so slow that I wished I had a lever. I HAVE fished with a lever when I knew that I could personally cast a star of similar size farther and that would have got me into better fish.
I'm with Alto, Senators for ever!
Ron
Levers offer more of a precise control of the drags while fighting a fish. That's why most people use them while trolling for larger game. You set up the drag before catching a fish and you will know that when the lever is placed back to where you set them you will have the same drag pressure. Let's say you set up a lever drag to have 10 lbs of drag at strike on a reel when using it with 40 lb main line. When trolling you will not have the lever set all the way to strike most of the time opting to fish with a lesser drag setting for the strike. Ok now you hook a fish and want to fight it. You push the lever to strike and you will have the 10 lbs of drag you set before hand every time, there is no guess work on how far you will turn a star to get the same drag. Now say you cant move the fish with the 10 lbs of drag, like when tuna start to do the death spiral or a billfish turns sideways to you and it is right out of leader length. You can add more drag by pushing the lever past strike and get the fish to the boat. If you add too much drag, zing-pow, and the line breaks. If you set up your lever reel and do drag measurements before you catch a fish and you do not adjust the drag knob during a trip those measurements should stay very close.
Say your going to get spooled by a big fish or taken into structure and you want to add maximum drag to your reel for the line your fishing. Again if you have done the setup and measurements before hand you will know the precise location of your lever to offer the drag you want without breaking off a fish. Or say you hook a fish while using a star drag reel and somehow the star got moved while in a rod holder, rocket launcher or what ever how much do you need to turn the star to get the drag pressure you want? For the most part I have only noticed this has happened after I have hooked a fish.
Setting up a lever reel with a drag scale is the best way to know there your drags are set and they should stay that way if the drag adjustment knob is not moved and it is much harder to have this happen than getting the star bumped. Most people that don't use a scale are off then setting their drags, some way off. Try this, set a reel by feel to where you think you want the drag set, then measure with a scale. If your anything like me you will be surprised on how far you are off then setting the drag to the line test used.
Edit: don't think I'm only a lever drag user I have both types of reels used for different applications.
Yea, apples and oranges.
If your fishing depends on max drag for a given size reel then lever drags do really shine for the brief window you can fish them that way before they need work.
And it's true that a star can't be shoved to "full drag" as easy. This is both good and bad. You might lose that fish in structure but with a little more finesse you will still catch a lot fish and not destroy your reels in the process. They may not be as sexy, but they are relentlessly reliable and that has it's own attraction.
Its truly not the lever drag reel's fault. It's so easy to push to full people do it and beat them up. If you cranked down the star completely and fished a star drag that way then lots of things on many of them would start breaking too.
Lever drags are all trick and cool and stuff but as I posted above, unless you have a specific application where they shine the other attributes that star drags actually make them preferable for some styles of fishing.
best
My only issue with your line of thinking, SoCalAngler, is that the numbers just don't matter. It is sort of like the 30-06 or 300 Win mag argument, if the elk is dead who cares if the bullet was traveling at 2700 or 3000 fps? If you land the fish who cares if you were using 10 or 11.5 pounds of drag? Numbers are great in the lab and for comparing apples to apples, but when the fight is on they just don't really have a lot of influence. I have never not gotten extra drag on it time with a star drag. I have (30 years ago) snapped fish clean off from flipping a lever to far.
Ron
Yea, to me it would be like driving my wife's automatic or my infinity coupe with 6 on the floor. :-\
I never had problems adjusting the star as I needed. We're making fishing too complicated.
I am with you Sal I am a star man myself,not that I haven't used or owned them before. But I prefer the star over a lever in most fishing applications especially when ruggedness is what you need.
Now don't get me wrong they are pretty but I can catch the same fish on a star drag reel just as easy as with a lever and jig just as well too with one that is properly built.And I can have more than just one,the cost does not justify the bling.
I personally think lever drags are overkill for many types of fishing. Where I live I see guys fishing them for inshore fish, such as fluke and black sea bass. Totally unnecessary.
I fish star drags for everything, including smaller tuna. If and when I start fishing for 200 lb. plus tuna, I will consider a lever drag. Until then, I will stick with the reliability and simplicity of my stars. 8)
needless to say this is an "old school" site where rugged simplicity is going to be appreciated. ;D
Then again, Studio Ocean Mark does offer their lever drag reels with angular contact bearings for about ~$1200 last I checked for a 3/0 size reel :D.
Just what we need a Rolls Royce or a Bently to go to the supermarket down the street to pick up bread & milk.
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 20, 2013, 05:07:17 AM
needless to say this is an "old school" site where rugged simplicity is going to be appreciated. ;D
...
I sure love old school and simplicity! But, as I am an newbie in comparison to a lot of you guys here, please explain why a star drag is so much simpler and more rugged than a lever drag system? I've looked at a few service guides on lever drags but to me they don't look overly complicated.. What am I missing?
/Karl
Hi Karl,
Reading your questions, and answering as such. The repeatability of the drag settings on a lever drag are the biggest benefit over the humble yet robust star drag. Once you have set the drag at 'strike' for a given line load, then you have the infinite repeatability that you will never get from any star drag – which if you are fishing in line class, and particularly lower line classes can be the difference between success and failure.
As to actual mechanisms, generally the lever drags will offer more available drag pressure for a given size of reel (spool diameter), though they are a precision instrument, and do not respond well to abusive treatment.
We fish a lot is surf casting, and have found that the lever drags in most models that we use out cast the star drags, and it doesn't take a lot of changes or 'angler education' to change up to lever drag reels and get the benefit of the better free spool availability – a product of the drag mechanism.
Lastly, generally the drag materials are better in lever drag reels, as well as the bearings – the manufacturers are looking for better quality in the product. Star drags however can very quickly be brought up to the more effective materials with aftermarket drags and bearings (Carbontex and Boca).
The above are some generalities, as there are older lever drag reels that benefit from upgrades to the drag material, while very few star drag reels come fitted as standard with the likes of carbontex washers or high quality bearings.
I fish with both for pleasure and at competition levels, both have their place, if I'm standing chest deep on a sand bank for a couple of hours I would immediately opt for the star drag (with up grades), while if I'm on the beach looking for maximum distance, the lever drag reels are my first choice. It is very much a matter of horses for courses. If I was to run a charter boat, i would probably opt for star drags, as I do when I am guiding clients on the beach – they are just so 'idiot-proof', and will take a lot of punishment.
We had a competition at the weekend, loads of clubs all competing against each other, my club with just 7 anglers landed over 977kgs (nearly 1 ton) of sharks in 7 hours, of the 7 anglers that caught in the club 4 were using star drags, 3 were using lever drags. No reels failed on the day, nearly all the star drags had been up graded.
At the end of the end of the day – a hand line would probably be the most effective in a lot of situations – zero mechanical issues, then we would have a forum discussing the virtues of different gloves and gloves treatment??? We all like our technology, it is just a matter of what level of technology you wish to work with – we dare not discuss fishing rods bamboo, cane, split cane, glass fibre, low tech carbon or high tech carbon.
You pays your money, and takes your choice!!!
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Quote from: noyb72 on May 20, 2013, 02:43:22 AM
My only issue with your line of thinking, SoCalAngler, is that the numbers just don't matter. It is sort of like the 30-06 or 300 Win mag argument, if the elk is dead who cares if the bullet was traveling at 2700 or 3000 fps? If you land the fish who cares if you were using 10 or 11.5 pounds of drag? Numbers are great in the lab and for comparing apples to apples, but when the fight is on they just don't really have a lot of influence. I have never not gotten extra drag on it time with a star drag. I have (30 years ago) snapped fish clean off from flipping a lever to far.
Ron
To each his own Ron and I don't know where you fish or what you fish for, but for me if I have a fish of a lifetime or possible world record on my line I want to know exactly where my drags are set. Will this happen often? No, but if or when it does I'll be ready. Now 1.5 pounds over 10 lbs comming off the reel is nothing but if you have out 200-300 yards of line out and your spool is much smaller in diameter that 11.5 pounds of drag has increased much more.
Two years ago down in Baja I landed a 250 lb Thresher on 50 lb test. World record? Nope not even close. Can you pull hard on 50 lb test? Yep, but how hard can you pull before breaking your line when your almost spooled in about 20 seconds? Mouth hooked Threshers get pretty PO'ed you know. Landing that fish stand up style without a harness from a 21' center console in under 20 minutes means you have to put maximum presure on the fish from start to finish. Everything must be right, connections, hook, gear, angler and boat operation. Fish of a lifetime? Just one of many and with God willing there will be many more.
As far as people using too heavy of gear for the fishing their doing well thats them. I'm a Southern California fisherman, where big fish on smaller gear is what we do. The west coast has always and will be on the cutting edge of fishing. First recognized fishing club in America, widely available aftermarket upgrade parts for Penn reels, stand up style of fishing for big fish, spectra line for fishing, smaller reels that offer the stopping and cranking power for big fish and the list goes on, were all started here.
This is not about what is a better reel, lever vs star it's about having the right gear for the job your trying to get done. If you can't see where lever drag reels have their place, well thats ok. But, for me I use both types of reels and each has it's advantages and it's short falls.
hey alto mare
you should try a lever drag,
then you could get rid of all that fairy floss ;D
Quote from: Jeri on May 20, 2013, 06:18:12 AM
Hi Karl,
Reading your questions, and answering as such. The repeatability of the drag settings on a lever drag are the biggest benefit over the humble yet robust star drag. Once you have set the drag at 'strike' for a given line load, then you have the infinite repeatability that you will never get from any star drag – which if you are fishing in line class, and particularly lower line classes can be the difference between success and failure.
As to actual mechanisms, generally the lever drags will offer more available drag pressure for a given size of reel (spool diameter), though they are a precision instrument, and do not respond well to abusive treatment.
We fish a lot is surf casting, and have found that the lever drags in most models that we use out cast the star drags, and it doesn't take a lot of changes or 'angler education' to change up to lever drag reels and get the benefit of the better free spool availability – a product of the drag mechanism.
Lastly, generally the drag materials are better in lever drag reels, as well as the bearings – the manufacturers are looking for better quality in the product. Star drags however can very quickly be brought up to the more effective materials with aftermarket drags and bearings (Carbontex and Boca).
The above are some generalities, as there are older lever drag reels that benefit from upgrades to the drag material, while very few star drag reels come fitted as standard with the likes of carbontex washers or high quality bearings.
I fish with both for pleasure and at competition levels, both have their place, if I'm standing chest deep on a sand bank for a couple of hours I would immediately opt for the star drag (with up grades), while if I'm on the beach looking for maximum distance, the lever drag reels are my first choice. It is very much a matter of horses for courses. If I was to run a charter boat, i would probably opt for star drags, as I do when I am guiding clients on the beach – they are just so 'idiot-proof', and will take a lot of punishment.
We had a competition at the weekend, loads of clubs all competing against each other, my club with just 7 anglers landed over 977kgs (nearly 1 ton) of sharks in 7 hours, of the 7 anglers that caught in the club 4 were using star drags, 3 were using lever drags. No reels failed on the day, nearly all the star drags had been up graded.
At the end of the end of the day – a hand line would probably be the most effective in a lot of situations – zero mechanical issues, then we would have a forum discussing the virtues of different gloves and gloves treatment??? We all like our technology, it is just a matter of what level of technology you wish to work with – we dare not discuss fishing rods bamboo, cane, split cane, glass fibre, low tech carbon or high tech carbon.
You pays your money, and takes your choice!!!
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Thanks for a very informative answer!
Regarding hand lines, I have a very strong memory of when I was backpacking the South Pacific and I one day took a stroll down the harbor in a small fishing village in Solomon Islands. One fisherman, in a dug out canoe, had caught a BIG marlin on a hand line. He had managed to get the marlin into the canoe (don't ask me how) and the waterline was maybe an inch from the top of the canoe. The next day the same fisherman brought in a very big shark in the same small canoe. Incredible. It was a humbling experience and you start to to question your own obsession with fishing gear. A line and a hook. Everything else is just makeup. i didn't have any fishing gear myself with me but after that encounter I went to the nearest store and bought some heavy mono, a couple of hooks and a few small sinkers. Wrapped the line on a soda bottle, bought some small bait fish and went fishing. Had a great time! Casting with a bottle is actually quite effective when you get a hang of it.
I enjoy my levers and my star drag reels and also my spin reels. All these reels are good for their particular jobs. They would not exist otherwise. When I was a young guy, I had vintage motor cycles and fast modern bikes at the same time, but loved riding all of them for different reasons.
It`s like now I enjoy my recently aquired 40 year old Senators as much as my Jigging Masters. There is room for all of them.
Quote from: wallacewt on May 20, 2013, 09:05:56 AM
hey alto mare
you should try a lever drag,
then you could get rid of all that fairy floss ;D
;D ;D...bad when someone knows how much you like them, i'm not aswering this one ;)
Quote from: SoCalAngler on May 20, 2013, 06:23:19 AM
Quote from: noyb72 on May 20, 2013, 02:43:22 AM
My only issue with your line of thinking, SoCalAngler, is that the numbers just don't matter. It is sort of like the 30-06 or 300 Win mag argument, if the elk is dead who cares if the bullet was traveling at 2700 or 3000 fps? If you land the fish who cares if you were using 10 or 11.5 pounds of drag? Numbers are great in the lab and for comparing apples to apples, but when the fight is on they just don't really have a lot of influence. I have never not gotten extra drag on it time with a star drag. I have (30 years ago) snapped fish clean off from flipping a lever to far.
Ron
To each his own Ron and I don't know where you fish or what you fish for, but for me if I have a fish of a lifetime or possible world record on my line I want to know exactly where my drags are set. Will this happen often? No, but if or when it does I'll be ready. Now 1.5 pounds over 10 lbs comming off the reel is nothing but if you have out 200-300 yards of line out and your spool is much smaller in diameter that 11.5 pounds of drag has increased much more.
Two years ago down in Baja I landed a 250 lb Thresher on 50 lb test. World record? Nope not even close. Can you pull hard on 50 lb test? Yep, but how hard can you pull before breaking your line when your almost spooled in about 20 seconds? Mouth hooked Threshers get pretty PO'ed you know. Landing that fish stand up style without a harness from a 21' center console in under 20 minutes means you have to put maximum presure on the fish from start to finish. Everything must be right, connections, hook, gear, angler and boat operation. Fish of a lifetime? Just one of many and with God willing there will be many more.
As far as people using too heavy of gear for the fishing their doing well thats them. I'm a Southern California fisherman, where big fish on smaller gear is what we do. The west coast has always and will be on the cutting edge of fishing. First recognized fishing club in America, widely available aftermarket upgrade parts for Penn reels, stand up style of fishing for big fish, spectra line for fishing, smaller reels that offer the stopping and cranking power for big fish and the list goes on, were all started here.
This is not about what is a better reel, lever vs star it's about having the right gear for the job your trying to get done. If you can't see where lever drag reels have their place, well thats ok. But, for me I use both types of reels and each has it's advantages and it's short falls.
x2 and just bought a torque spinning reel mainly for popping but will be using it for shore fishing too. for me as long as i'm fishing then i'm having a blast... :)
It's ok I don't fish for anything over a thousand pounds anymore so I guess my star drag reels can be put away for now.
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 19, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
I'm not going to stir up a hornet's nest here by asking what is the preferred drag system but I am a bit curious to the differences, mechanics wise, between the two.
Karl: Who are you kidding? Look at the hornet's nest you started. My vote is I like them both. BTW stop biting your fingernails. ;D Dominick
Quote from: Pescachaser on May 20, 2013, 08:08:53 PM
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 19, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
I'm not going to stir up a hornet's nest here by asking what is the preferred drag system but I am a bit curious to the differences, mechanics wise, between the two.
Karl: Who are you kidding? Look at the hornet's nest you started. My vote is I like them both. BTW stop biting your fingernails. ;D Dominick
Haha! I was actually reading a very special and exciting rebuild thread here when that picture was taken. Couldn't sleep for two days afterwards. I think it was one of Sal's double dog adventures.
:)
/K
Funny how some sign their full name when things are smooth and only use the first letter when it's a sticky situation ::) ;D ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 20, 2013, 09:34:52 PM
Funny how some sign their full name when things are smooth and only use the first letter when it's a sticky situation ::) ;D ;D
Yeah and some don't sign at all....??? Dominick
;D.......
Great discussion. One of the rookies will chime in here. :P
As discussed previously, the drag in a star drag is in the main gear, and in the lever drag reels the drag is part of the spool, separate from the gears.
This accounts for one difference not mentioned: a lever drag reel can have a two speed gear set.
Now there's a challenge! Two-speeding a star-drag :D
With all the great innovations here, who's up for it?
No idea how you'd even start.
Btw I have star and lever reels - personally happy with star for casting and smaller stuff but now for the heavy stuff it's all lever drags. Cut-off point is around the 50lb line 6/0 - 9/0 vs a 30W or 50 or 50W. Bigger it is all lever: smaller it's all star.
But then maybe I have too many choices ;D
Chris
Quote from: floating doc on May 21, 2013, 07:53:26 PM
Great discussion. One of the rookies will chime in here. :P
As discussed previously, the drag in a star drag is in the main gear, and in the lever drag reels the drag is part of the spool, separate from the gears.
This accounts for one difference not mentioned: a lever drag reel can have a two speed gear set.
Well, I know ABU has made a few Ambassadeur models with star drag and two speeds. Don't ask me how they solved it though. Don't own one yet. Made a bid on one so we'll see in a few days... ::)
I want one!!!! :P
Quote from: saltydog on May 21, 2013, 08:34:25 PM
I want one!!!! :P
I know!! Have found an old Ambassadeur 10000C that looks a bit beat up, but that only means I can spend some quality time with it.
Both the 9000 and 10000 models are automatic two speeds. I've seen a few other, smaller models, as well with two speeds but can't tell you how many models there are with the option.
I had a 9000c many years ago. Definately a mono reel. It had a lot of lag on start of retrieve, which I would think is because of the 2 speed mechanism. I enjoyed using my 7000 more.
There have been many 2-speed star drag reels; nothing mechanically impossible about it.
Why there aren't any now, idunno. Nobody feels like doing it anymore. Fashion.
Quote from: mandelstamI went to the nearest store and bought some heavy mono, a couple of hooks and a few small sinkers. Wrapped the line on a soda bottle, bought some small bait fish and went fishing. Had a great time!
Yup. Somehow, that is one of the finer forms of fishing.
.
here's an abu SD 2-speed tutorial;
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=894.0
Quote from: Mel B on May 22, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
here's an abu SD 2-speed tutorial;
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=894.0
I've browsed through it, and will read it closely when I have the reel in hand.
I'm bidding on a couple of smaller Ambassadeur 7000's from the seventies as well. Normal star drags, but I did find out when reading up on some ABU history and lettering that ABU has made a lever drag version of the 7000 model - 7000C4/7000LD. Anyone tried it? Should be a perfect size for me when going out codding in the neighborhood.
Yes, those were the ones I was referring to in the Ambassadeur 30 thread.
They were made some years later by that little fellow in Taiwan and are mechanically speaking a clone of the ubiquituous drawbar design. With a levelwind; that's cool. Not many LD / LW reels out there. And a classic Ambassadeur look too.
Unfortunately, it also has, for some ungodly reason, a disgusting plastic drag lever.
I had one a while back. Made a nice one-piece frame for it, new drag washer, freespool sleeve... it actually turned out rather nicely and casted very well.
There was a smaller one as well; the 6600LD. An entirely different animal. Made in Sweden i think, but on a different mechanical principle that by reason of design prohibits it from being...anything more than what it is.
.
good luck Karl, on your bids...
Quote from: Pescachaser on May 20, 2013, 10:17:21 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 20, 2013, 09:34:52 PM
Funny how some sign their full name when things are smooth and only use the first letter when it's a sticky situation ::) ;D ;D
Yeah and some don't sign at all....??? Dominick
I don't need to sign...my name is right there :o :o :o
I don't like the LD for bottom fishing. I like to go freespool and know that the drag is still where I preset it. Set it and forget it.
Quote from: coonhound on May 23, 2013, 06:56:37 PM
I don't like the LD for bottom fishing. I like to go freespool and know that the drag is still where I preset it. Set it and forget it.
Coonhound, I am just curious about how you use a lever drag. What makes you think that you cannot get to your preset pull? Perhaps you are not using the LD correctly. I do not mean to be condescending but I will explain to you about how to use a lever drag. Assuming you want to set your lever drag at 20 lbs. You would set the drag to 20 lbs. at strike by lifting weights or using a scale (however you usually do it). Now when you thumb the lever back to free-spool you are in free-spool. There is no resistance and your line will play out until you hit bottom or you work the lever. Once you hit bottom you would move the lever to the detent at the strike position and you are at 20 lbs. If you want more drag for some reason just depress the detent release at the lever and move it past strike to full. These movements take you to full gradually. Under most fishing conditions a lever drag is quicker than the star drag system. You may not like LD for bottom fishing but it is quick and accurate and infinitely more adjustable than the star drag system. Please don't get me wrong I like the star drag system also. Everyone is entitled to his/her own preference. Dominick
Old man, let me tell you how to use the star. Hold the handle knob in the palm of your hand and with your thumb back the star all the way. Now with your index turn the points on the star twice...one at a time, stopping at the handle with the same finger that you're using each time, you are now at a quarter drags. Repeat two more times and you'll be at half, two more times at three quarters and two more times at full. if you get confused start with the thumb again and count ;) ;D If you're looking for accuracy, weight each step, I'll bet they will always be the same at that same spot ;). Not all drags are set the same, set yours to your liking.
Just messing with you, if I look as good as you do when I get your age I'll be in good shape. Don't get a big head, keep those hawaiian shirts buttoned up....please
Let me know exactly what day you're in town.
Sal
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already or else they knew I would put in my 2 cents.
A star drag has the braking action at the end of the line - pull on spool, through the pinion and main gear, then on the drag washers. The whole load must go through the gears so things can get dicey with poorly made gears or more drag than the gears can handle (as in brass).
Lever drag reels have the braking action on an extension of the spool axle. One of the main cautions on lever drags is don't turn the preset knob unless the drag lever is in the free position.
Look at my list of reels below and you'll see I'm with Sal, except I do have a lever drag reel and have just added 2 more 501's and a Newell 99 conversion to the stable. ;D
Quote from: Norcal Pescador on May 26, 2013, 10:48:54 PM
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this already or else they knew I would put in my 2 cents.
A star drag has the braking action at the end of the line - pull on spool, through the pinion and main gear, then on the drag washers. The whole load must go through the gears so things can get dicey with poorly made gears or more drag than the gears can handle (as in brass).
Lever drag reels have the braking action on an extension of the spool axle. One of the main cautions on lever drags is don't turn the preset knob unless the drag lever is in the free position.
Look at my list of reels below and you'll see I'm with Sal, except I do have a lever drag reel and have just added 2 more 501's and a Newell 99 conversion to the stable. ;D
Nice input!
About not turning the preset knob unless the reel's in free spool, I've read that on many threads here but I don't really understand why not? What could happen?
I'm starting to lean back towards star drags again. Not that I didn't like them before but I'm starting to understand how nice and simple they are in comparison.
Two reasons not to turn the preset without backing off the lever - first it usually won't turn to increase the preset (because the drag washers and springs are already under pressure) and second trying to do so may screw something up if you force them. Also, if you do manage to increase the preset, when you back off and then return the lever to the same position, you won't get the drag you expected 'cos everything was under pressure when you set it but has since had an opportunity to re-settle.
So, always take the pressure out of the system by taking the lever back to zero, twiddle the preset knob, move the lever to wherever you want it to be (strike, full or some tape mark) and check. If it is not right, back to zero, twiddle again, up with the lever again and recheck. Actually, very quick when you get used to it.
Having said that, there are some lever drag reels that do allow you to adjust the pre-set with the lever not in the freespool setting (eg Policansky) but only with relatively low drag settings. Wouldn't want to try it with a 130!
Cheers,
Chris
G'day Mandelstam,
LDs generally have a cam above (ie outside) the lever.
When the lever is engaged, it pushes the cam away.
This pulls the spool shaft towards the right side plate and the spool onto the drag plate (which is locked against the pinion/pinion bearing).
The cam generally pushes against the preset adjuster as it does so.
If you turn the adjustor when the lever is engaged, you're using the spool shaft thread (and adjustor thread) to push against the drag load, potentially damaging both threads.
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Justin
Quote from: redsetta on May 27, 2013, 04:15:26 AM
G'day Mandelstam,
LDs generally have a cam above (ie outside) the lever.
When the lever is engaged, it pushes the cam away.
This pulls the spool shaft towards the right side plate and the spool onto the drag plate (which is locked against the pinion/pinion bearing).
The cam generally pushes against the preset adjuster as it does so.
If you turn the adjustor when the lever is engaged, you're using the spool shaft thread (and adjustor thread) to push against the drag load, potentially damaging both threads.
Hope that helps.
Cheers, Justin
That helps alot! Thank you!
/K
Bearings are often crushed too.
Quote from: Mandelstam on May 20, 2013, 05:51:00 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 20, 2013, 05:07:17 AM
needless to say this is an "old school" site where rugged simplicity is going to be appreciated. ;D
...
I sure love old school and simplicity! But, as I am an newbie in comparison to a lot of you guys here, please explain why a star drag is so much simpler and more rugged than a lever drag system? I've looked at a few service guides on lever drags but to me they don't look overly complicated.. What am I missing?
/Karl
At the risk of raising from the dead darn near every thread on this site I will address this as I didn't answer before and no one else did:
A lever drag reel is significantly more complicated than a star drag and I will try and explain.
First off, count the parts on a Star Drag schematic and then on a Lever Drag schematic. Even the simplest and cheapest of LD reels have 2-3 times as many parts and probably 5 times the number of parts of a Senator. The highest end LD reels have nearly 200 parts. The highest end Star Drags have less than 100. The basic idea is that an LD reel has to move the entire spool assembly via a precision cam to increase drag pressure, the SD reel simply some washers that get tightened by one nut (star). More parts means more to go wrong and more expense. Moving the entire spool assembly means more parts to accomplish that smoothly and support the forces under load.
In addition, the achilles heal of LD reels is the right side pinion bearing that is essentially treated as a "drag washer" in LD reels. And the more drag you have the more the RSPB gets crushed. This leads to rapid destruction of the bearing as they are not designed to handle this type of "axial" load. The more drag you use the faster it gets destroyed. This is apparently a "sacrificial lamb" that the manufacturers expect you to destroy despite their advertisements of drag settings that quickly destroy them. There is no such vital part that can be ruined on a few heavy fish in a SD. Take an LD reel and set the preset at strike to the lowest drag setting that increases handle turning pressure in any noticeable way. That setting on an Avet SX is about 8-9lbs. *Anything* higher than that (ie pushing a millimeter past strike) and you are inevitably destroying the RSPB even reeling in a bare hook.
Conversely, every bearing in an SD reel is only stressed in the way they are designed to be stressed and therefore last longer. You can preset the drag to whatever you want and are not wearing out anything as you fish the reel.
Add to that the position of the drag in an LD reel is right inside that nice crevice between the spool and the frame leading to greater exposure of the drag and all those additional precision parts to saltwater. This means that you need to have a dedicated cover for the drag but all those additional parts needed for smooth movement of the spool back and forth are more exposed to saltwater. LD repairs can get expensive fast. An SD reel is not necessarily more protected, it's just that there are fewer parts at risk and they are cheaper parts (price the cost of a new drag plate for an LD reel that had it's plate get pitted from salt sometime), hence a more reliable system in an SD and vastly cheaper to maintain overall.
In a nutshell:
1. LD reels have more parts which equals more headaches. They are also, generally, more expensive parts.
2. An LD reel is designed to eat bearings and needs more bearings to function properly. The simplest star drags don't even have a single bearing and bushings virtually never, ever wear out.
3. The drag is far more complicated in an LD reel with more precision parts required with far more to go wrong but, they will always produce more drag due to the "multiplying" effects of the pinion on the main gear and drag stack in an SD reel that reduce it's effective drag. If the gear ratio is 4:1 then when 15lbs of force is taking line off of the spool the Star Drag stack actually has to resist 60. An LD reel doesn't experience this penalty.
So, I hope this makes sense and as much as I come across as an LD hater I'm not, particularly for true big 'uns. However, if you fish them hard an LD reel is gonna be finicky and require a lot of work whereas the simple old mechanism of washers and a star is gonna keep on fishing far longer.
It's kinda like if that one big fish came along I'd want an LD reel for all that they can do in a small package. Day in and day out the ruthless reliability of a SD reel is a joy, however. It's like comparing a Toyota truck to a Mercedes. One is gonna go 300 thousand miles with nary a peep, the other is gonna be very expensive to fix and routinely maintain though the bling on that one just may get you a date.
best
Hey I've picked up lots of girls that could do better than me in my 99 suburban ;) plus real chicks will dig the mud you just went through on the Toyota ;D
So the symptom is a high drag setting can cause bearing damage. The problems are
1. Cost, all manufactures build things to a price point & deep groove ball bearings are the most cost effective (bearings) to use for this application.
2. Design, design of the reel where a high drag setting causes a excessive axial load on the bearing. As a general rule of thumb a deep groove ball bearing can take (up to) 10% of it's radial load in axial load. For instance a 696 (6 x 15 x 5) has a static radial load of 530N roughly 53kg so will take a axial (side or thrust) load of only 5.3kg max.
Solutions
3. Alan's bearing spacer sleeves will help by supporting the inner ring of the bearing, preventing them from moving as much as they would without the sleeve.
4. Angular contact bearings are designed to take radial & axial loads, they have the same dimensions as deep groove bearings but may not be available in some of the smaller sizes (below 6mm bore). If you used these along with the correct bearing spacer sleeve you would extend your bearing life dramatically.
5. Needle roller thrust bearings, another alternative if you can't get the correct size angular contact bearing. Providing you can fit one in, you may need to remove a spacer washer or modify a housing to achieve this.
6. This is going to cause me some grief, BACK OFF THE DRAG use the rod to do the work a reel is not a winch, for lighter gear thumb the spool (works on spinners too).
Rgds
Mark
I LOVE number 6. The rod brings the fish in, the reel holds the line.
Ron
The thing is Mark is that #6 has no effect on the Pinion Bearing. It will ease the strain on your gears and your arms, but not the Pinion Bearing.
The force is constant and is determined by the drag setting. If you have a drag setting that causes "handle turning pressure" it is destroying the bearing regardless of whether a fish is on the line or not. The life of the pinion bearing is going to be proportional to how often you use higher drag settings and turn the handle even if the settings are within the manufacturers specifications.
Using the Avet s/x as an example again, it is rated to 9lbs at strike and 14 at full. If you push it to full there is handle binding pressure from the pinion bearing being used in a way it is not ideally designed for. The Lever Drag reel makers, reasonably, have marketed a reel that is very inexpensive but is betting that the time spent at full is low enough for the average guy that their consumers will be happy with the life of the pinion for the money they spent.
We in the cheap seats simply point out that this is one reason a star drag will be more reliable for fishing 15lbs of drag year after year. The only thing wearing out when you set a star drag to 15lbs and forget it is a tiny amount of spring in the stainless belleville washers. The rate of that is so low as to not amount to much. :D
Some of the reel makers are doing more and more to alleviate this problem with the pinion bearings in LD reels but it remains one of cost and Angular Contact bearings are prohibitively expensive from a commercial marketing standpoint.
best
Hi John,
If the drag is below the setting that is below the maximum axial load for the bearings, that is you are using the rod to play the fish, or thumbing the spool I can't see a problem. All lever drag reels regardless of brand have this inherent design flaw, I'm not wading into the star versus lever debate (every system has their pros & cons). Just suggesting how you can improve performance & bearing life on a lever drag reel.
Rgds
Mark
Quote from: MFB on January 21, 2014, 06:30:05 PM
Hi John,
If the drag is below the setting that is below the maximum axial load for the bearings, that is you are using the rod to play the fish, or thumbing the spool I can't see a problem. All lever drag reels regardless of brand have this inherent design flaw, I'm not wading into the star versus lever debate (every system has their pros & cons). Just suggesting how you can improve performance & bearing life on a lever drag reel.
Rgds
Mark
Thanks for that Mark and I understand you clearly.
The problem is for us West Coast guys that fish the southern waters of California or Baja is certain bottom dwelling rascals like Yellowtail. Their first run will make or break the fight as they are remarkably knowledgeable in the use of structure to break you off. You either snub them short with all the drag your reel can make or it's game over. Thumbing the spool is not recommended as in the immortal words of Gene Kira "ZING there's a nice blister!".
On top of this when fishing artificials for them they prefer a very fast retrieve simulating a panicked bait fish that has left a crevice and decided to run for it, so you are often hit just a few turns off the bottom. All of the above puts a premium on small light reels (to save effort and keep you fishing on slow days) and drags hammered down to stop 'em short.
Needless to say they are notorious tackle busters, great eating and provide memorable wide open fishing if you get 'em at the right time. They range from "rats" in the 5lb range found in swarms under kelp patties offshore to the occasional 75lb brutes seen at Alijos rocks in the spring. When you send a Tady 4/0 to the bottom off Baja you never know and reels fished at the heaviest drag settings are often the rule. :D
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/P1000261-1.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/P1000261-1.jpg.html)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/P1000092-1.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/P1000092-1.jpg.html)
The good news is an LD reel can have it's drag increased rapidly by shoving that lever to full potentially saving that trophy fish and if it was srs biz for big 'un Yellows that's what I would arm myself with. But over time they are gonna need more parts than a Penn Baja Special 113HN. They fish better (lighter), nicer (smaller), and make more drag for their size (a dual drag Accurate comes to mind) but are not as ultimately reliable.
best regards
Hi John,
We call them kingfish (or more commonly kingies) over here, & yeah they fight like 10,000 demons. Here is a picture of one my Mrs caught 17kg & 1200mm long caught in 100m of water ( we were targeting grouper). On my 900H loaded with 45kg braid on 24kg rod.
I hope to catch one on a popper this summer.
Rgds
Mark
Terrific fish and congrats to her! ;D
Sorry as I probably appeared to be lecturing you above. As you are well aware Yellowtail/Kingfish are found in only certain waters worldwide and you guys in New Zealand probably still have the biggest home guards (I've seen the internet posts of fish over 40kg landed) left in any waters.
So, nothing new in my post from your perspective. ;)
And the search for the perfect strong and reliable small reel for big fish goes on. I blame Yellowtail! :D
best regards
ps. I've caught them on surface stick baits and that is the proper way to do it. Far less grunting, groaning and sore backs the next day when you get them far from the bottom. :D
Have never tried popping or stick baiting before, going to use my 7500ss on a Kilwell 7' 10-15kg jellytip, & my 8500ss on a 15-24kg Kilwell jellytip also 7'. Have one stick bait in my tackle box all the rest are poppers Williamson's & River 2 Sea picked most of them up second hand although they were still in their boxes. Looks like you guys had a lot of fun on that trip though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTQ05O7SE0
Rgds
Mark
All my senators are 2 speed.....crank slow for low gear, fast for high ;)
Nice...