I use a Penn 9/0 loaded with a couple hundred yards of Power Pro backing and 500' of Blood Run 60lb super copper line for Trout and Salmon fishing on Lake Ontario.
The reel is obviously overkill for the 15-35lb salmon I fish for, but I need its large capacity because the copper line is very large in diameter. This rod is fished by letting out the 500' of copper to the backing, then I attach it to a surface side planer and trolling it about 100 off to the side of the boat. Needless to say, with all the copper out and a good portion of the backing, the spool diameter is quite small and the retrieve rate in this near empty state is abysmal.
We troll with as many as 12 rods at the same time, and sometimes we have to clear rods to chase a fish on the light tackle we are using elsewhere on the boat. Is there a way to increase this reel's retrieval rate? Is there a gear set from a different reel or possibly some aftermarket or semi-custom parts that would serve my purpose?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, everybody aboard hates this rig the way it is and avoids it like it carries a plague.
If I need to supply any specific details, I'll try my best to do so, but I have very little experience with reel repair or maintenance; I'll probably need to have the work done by a pro if there is a solution available.
Quote from: John E Powell on July 06, 2013, 10:01:19 PM
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, everybody aboard hates this rig the way it is and avoids it like it carries a plague.
John: this is probably not what you want to hear. How often does that copper wire set up get hit. If you compare it to the rest of the lines maybe you ought to consider one less line in the water. Dominick
Well, believe it or not, I just changed from 700' of 45lb copper to 500' of the new heavier 60lb copper. They will achieve a similar trolled depth of about 100 feet, but now I only need to bring in 500 ft vs 700 ft. I've already made a 28% improvement in the fewer number of times we have to turn the handle, but I need to keep the crew happy. This is one of my best rigs, so retirement is not an option.
I've read in some of the other 9/0 posts about the 114H being a bit quicker, but I don't know enough to understand if this would equate to a faster retrieve in application. The reel seems to be in pretty decent shape, so I would not mind investing some money into it if it meant keeping the "better half" happy with less cranking.
If you could get some capacity back by switching to lighter Power Pro your best bet would be getting a 114HLW and then getting a set of gears from Alan. That would significantly increase your retrieve rate again assuming the capacity is their.
Ron
So, the way I read PennParts the 6/0 and 9/0 share gear sets, can anyone confirm this? If so, this could be an easy fix.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on July 06, 2013, 11:34:10 PM
So, the way I read PennParts the 6/0 and 9/0 share gear sets, can anyone confirm this? If so, this could be an easy fix.
Ron
The 6/0 and 9/0 use the same main gear, but the pinion is difference.
I believe the simplest way would be a longer handle. Should give you a little faster retrieve.
Tom T
Huh,
Pennparts is selling the 13-114 as a replacement for the 13-115.
Ron
Ron, unfortunately a 114 does not have the capacity I need.
Tom, A longer handle seems counterintuitive, wouldn't a shorter radius handle turn quicker and a longer radius handle turn slower. The longer handle would have a larger circumference.
The penn 114WEX is very close in capacity and much faster.
I'm really more interested in improving mine if possible rather than getting a different reel. There's some sentimental value here.
There are upgrades for the 9/0, unfortunately faster gear is not one of them. If we get lucky, Black Pearl might offer us faster gears. He's already working on the main gear all we need is the pinion, but that might take a year from now :-\.
So, do we need to tell Scott at pennparts that he is wrong, the sight says the gears are the same.
Ron
Slightly off topic: Why don't you use a downrigger?
Quote from: akfish on July 07, 2013, 11:54:41 AM
Slightly off topic: Why don't you use a downrigger?
Akfish: he said earlier that they sometimes have 12 lines out. I fished up in his part of the country and the guy I fished with had 5 downriggers with 2 lines stacked on them and 2 outriggers with copper and 2 standby outriggers. Too much work in my opinion. I have a tendency to pitch in and help. I found out I was too busy tending to lines instead of enjoying the fishing experience. At first I thought it was interesting to get that many lines out and cover so much territory, but after a couple of hours, I was ready for only 4 lines out. Dominick
Yea, up here it is one rod per person except under very rare circumstances when two rods are allowed. I'm guessing that with 12 rods, you need to leave most of them out when you get a strike. Leaving 10 rods out wouldn't work with a wild, saltwater salmon. Maybe with freshwater salmon or lake trout.
If a gear set is not available could you use a cordless drill with a line winding tool.they work great for retrieving line without a fish on.I have the "reel crankie "brand and it retrieves Line extremely fast.it could make your 9/0 the first reel everyone grabs instead of the last one. Joe
We're allowed to fish three lines per person here.
The invasion of Zebra Mussels to the Great Lakes through ship ballast water from foreign freshwater ports, and Global Warming has drastically changed the water clarity and depth we must fish at in recent years. I used to run 5 downriggers that held our lures relatively close to the boat as Dominick described, but with the super clear waters we have to contend with, our tactics have evolved to include rigging our baits at staggered distances and depths behind and off to the side of our boats so the baits run in water that is minimally disturbed by our boats.
Years ago, we ran downrigger lures deep below but close behind the transom and 2 Dipsy Divers off the side of the boat to hook fish spooked by the boat. Now, we run just 2-3 downriggers on a given day, with one line per downrigger and the rest are a mixture of divers, leadcore, and copper lines pulled off side planning devices or behind the boat. The most tasking rig, and one of my most productive is my longest heaviest copper line, the rod the 9/0 is mounted to. Each rig has differing actions when trolled through the water. Divers tend to bank and rise (like a plane in a turn) when a boat turns, leadcore undulates like a snake following underwater current shear lines, and copper is a heavy line designed to cut through layers of current and reach really deep depths.
Dipsy Diver lines have evolved from using monofilament to braided wire to pull them, because of the depths we must now target our fish at. We used to run 150' of monofilament to reach salmon at depths of 50' now we have to chase them at depths of 80-130 feet with 250-375 feet of wire to get to those depths. My Copper line rigs, of various lengths, will reach similar depths, but they trail behind the divers to give fish who don't hit the divers running closer to the boat another chance at our baits. Often this second chance is the deciding factor for many fish.
Until recently, tin-coated braided Copper wire came in 32lb and 45lb test weights. I ran the 45lb line on an Okuma Solterra 50L levelwind, it's quite a bit bigger than a Penn 345GT or Fathom 60. We've been working for a while with the new 60lb copper that was just released. It's really large in diameter and quite heavy. I can only get about 400' of this stuff on the Solterra with truly minimal backing (in reality, not enough). So I pressed this 9/0 into service. Now, I am just trying to make the best of it that I can without resorting to mounting an electric motor to it (or buying a different reel). I had a smaller sized Miya Epoch I kept on board for handicapped individuals or kids that were really too small for our fish, and nobody every wanted to land a fish on that rod, I retired it. It had a ridiculously slow retrieve if you used the hand crank.
I wish I had the info to model the necessary parts in 3D. I often wonder if a 3D printer could "print" a set of gears. Would be an interesting task for my students to work on.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 07, 2013, 12:38:46 AM
There are upgrades for the 9/0, unfortunately faster gear is not one of them.
What upgrades are available?
Larger handle. Contrary to your believes a larger handle gives you an advatage....less effort and more cranking power. You could also upgrade the frame posts with a full aluminum frame, but from reading your post, it might not be necessary for your type of fishing. A 1+7 drag stack is also available. Dawn sent me some thin washers to try a while back and I don't know what I did with them, those should put out smoother drag.
Now I'm confused, Sal. :-\ I think what you're saying is:
A larger grip, will make your hand and forearm happier, because you aren't wrapping your fingers around a peanut (as Alan says) and exerting a lot of force to turn the crank. The result is a lot less cramping of muscles.
A longer handle arm, which makes turns in a larger diameter circle, will make the cranking easier, but slower.
A shorter handle arm, which makes turns in a smaller diameter circle, will make the cranking harder, but faster.
Well almost. I understand about radius, this is about cranking force though. For example, you could have a wingnut there and you would be able to turn that spool really fast, but it would be worthless under load. The same principal would be with the shorter handle, while in some cases you're struggling trying to reel in, you could have been there easier and faster with a longer handle arm.
In short, the longer handle is easier and faster than the shorter handle when under load This is my opinion, if you guys rather have the shorter handle, go for it ;).
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 07, 2013, 12:38:46 AM
There are upgrades for the 9/0, unfortunately faster gear is not one of them. If we get lucky, Black Pearl might offer us faster gears. He's already working on the main gear all we need is the pinion, but that might take a year from now :-\.
Hey Sal,
You are right about the time line on the 9/0.
Quote from: Black Pearl on July 08, 2013, 09:14:21 PM
Hey Sal,
You are right about the time line on the 9/0.
Yea, just make sure they'll ship to the right address ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 08, 2013, 09:47:47 PM
Quote from: Black Pearl on July 08, 2013, 09:14:21 PM
Hey Sal,
You are right about the time line on the 9/0.
Yea, just make sure they'll ship to the right address ;)
Yea, you need to say that to the USPS. :)
I know its not your fault Alan, maybe one of these California boys tried to snatch them from me :-\ ;D .
I'm sure they'll get here sooner or later.....its worth the wait ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 08, 2013, 09:09:44 PM
Well almost. I understand about radius, this is about cranking force though. For example, you could have a wingnut there and you would be able to turn that spool really fast, but it would be worthless under load. The same principal would be with the shorter handle, while in some cases you're struggling trying to reel in, you could have been there easier and faster with a longer handle arm.
In short, the longer handle is easier and faster than the shorter handle when under load This is my opinion, if you guys rather have the shorter handle, go for it ;).
Despite the Pennsylvania-California language barrier ;D, I know what you're sayin' Sal. What's even more amazing is I agree! :D
Hey!
What is this secret code you guys are talking?
You are getting the 114 gears, aren't you?
I knew I couldn't one up the master. ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 08, 2013, 05:37:13 PM
Larger handle. Contrary to your believes a larger handle gives you an advatage....less effort and more cranking power. You could also upgrade the frame posts with a full aluminum frame, but from reading your post, it might not be necessary for your type of fishing. A 1+7 drag stack is also available. Dawn sent me some thin washers to try a while back and I don't know what I did with them, those should put out smoother drag.
I understand the relationship between input power, lever arm length (handle length), gear ratio, and loaded spool radius (variances in spool diameter as line is played out and reeled back on the reel). In reality, this all equates to retrieve rates per handle turn. For our fishery, the reel getting the most positive feedback when using copper line is the Okuma Clarion 553 LS which has a retrieve rate significantly greater than the 9/0.
There is an ideal range of handle length that will minimize input power required from the angler given the load applied to the reel (controlled by the drag system). We run about 3 llbs of drag on the reels, so the load to overcome is very light.
The feedback, or complaints, about the 9/0 I get are twofold: the first is the overall weight of the rod/reel combo exacerbated by the very heavy copper line, compared to smaller rigs holding shorter copper line segments, is out of my control. The second problem is the effort to turn the reel handle while attempting to clear this rod out of then way unloaded with no fish. The complaints center around the number of turns it takes not the effort to actually turn the handle. On every other reel i have where there is an option to adjust the handle length by selecting how the handle is mounted to the shaft, the handle ended up being on the shorter radius. With our smaller fish and low drag settings, it's much easier to rotate our wrist and have a little forearm movement on a shorter handle compared to keeping a tight wrist and using the elbow and shoulder as pivot points for a longer handle length. If I was going to run 10-20 lbs of drag I would agree with your assessment a longer handle would be in order. In fact, once the gearing is changed to a quicker retrieve ratio, a handle length change would be required to keep the same input power.
Excluding the actual accuracy of the numbers, I think it's fair to say, for instance, that with 3 lbs of drag the handle length of 3" might work well, with 8-9 lbs of drag 4" might be better, and with 15 lbs of drag 5" would be better? I'm sure there must be an ideal mathematical range to strive for based upon real life experiences. Maybe I'm being naive here... but it seems like it should be easy to model with a spreadsheet if there was concensus on what people felt were exemplar reels that were a true pleasure to use at various drag settings.
Quote from: John E Powell on July 09, 2013, 12:42:49 PM
I understand the relationship between input power, lever arm length (handle length), gear ratio, and loaded spool radius (variances in spool diameter as line is played out and reeled back on the reel). In reality, this all equates to retrieve rates per handle turn. For our fishery, the reel getting the most positive feedback when using copper line is the Okuma Clarion 553 LS which has a retrieve rate significantly greater than the 9/0.
May I ask what is the spool diameter of the Okuma 553LS? the 9/0 is 4 inches.
I don't believe you'll be able to turn the handle on the 9/0 when retrieving a nice fish if the ratio was 6 to 1. You coiuld, but the start up would be tough. That would be like taking off with a manual car while in third gear.
We like to experiment here, but we also need to stay within our limits, a 3.25 to 1 would make the 9/0 manageable....I think.
Excluding the actual accuracy of the numbers, I think it's fair to say, for instance, that with 3 lbs of drag the handle length of 3" might work well, with 8-9 lbs of drag 4" might be better, and with 15 lbs of drag 5" would be better? I'm sure there must be an ideal mathematical range to strive for based upon real life experiences. Maybe I'm being naive here... but it seems like it should be easy to model with a spreadsheet if there was concensus on what people felt were exemplar reels that were a true pleasure to use at various drag settings.
[/quote]
I agree, as you increase drag, the handle should also increase in length.
Quote from: noyb72 on July 07, 2013, 08:05:29 AM
So, do we need to tell Scott at pennparts that he is wrong, the sight says the gears are the same.
Ron
Black Pearl needed the gears from the 9/0, I didn't have any, so I decided to take my only 9/0 apart. While I was at it, I also decided to check if the 13-114 pinion would work with the main gear, instead of the 13-115.
The reel did just fine, so Scott has it right the 13-114 will work on the 9/0.
I took some measurements between the two and didn't notice any difference.
Sal
Alan, I will ship the gears to you in the morning.
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 10, 2013, 12:06:21 AM
Quote from: noyb72 on July 07, 2013, 08:05:29 AM
So, do we need to tell Scott at pennparts that he is wrong, the sight says the gears are the same.
Ron
Black Pearl needed the gears from the 9/0, I didn't have any, so I decided to take my only 9/0 apart. While I was at it, I also decided to check if the 13-114 pinion would work with the main gear, instead of the 13-115.
The reel did just fine, so Scott has it right the 13-114 will work on the 9/0.
I took some measurements between the two and didn't notice any difference.
Sal
Alan, I will ship the gears to you in the morning.
Sal,
So, my new 114H gear set will work on 115L, there will be no reason to make a new set for 115L.
Quote from: Black Pearl on July 10, 2013, 01:03:13 AM
So, my new 114H gear set will work on 115L, there will be no reason to make a new set for 115L.
That's what got me confused earlier, I was thinking 13-114H.
No, the 114H gear set will not work in the 115L.
We are talking about the 13-114 not 13-114H. The 13-114H is smaller in diameter than the 13-114.
We still need the pinion for the 115L.
I will send you the set tomorrow.
Sal
What!?
You only have one 9/0 Sal? I find this hard to believe. I hope its the one with the Accurate Frame.
;D
yes, I only have one and it is the one with the Accurate frame. ;)
Don't ask me how many 114H's I have ;D.
If its more than 5, you got me beat. Thats how many 9's I have.
So, did you guys solve Mr Powells problem or not?
It sure seemed like a lot of high-tech talk for this Hillbilly. ::)
So, so we can be clear:
The 114H and the 9/0 use the same main gear and the 114 and the 9/0 share the same pinion. So, Alan's gears won't work in the 9/0 but all Alan should need to do is make a new pinion for the 9/0 and use his high speed 114H main. Clear as mud?
Ron
Thanks noyb. I understand that!
I'm glad you understood it, I was asking if I was rite!
Ron
Quote from: Alto Mare on July 09, 2013, 04:36:20 PM
May I ask what is the spool diameter of the Okuma 553LS? the 9/0 is 4 inches.
I don't have a CLR-553LS handy to provide you with the spool diameter or the handle length, but from the Okuma website, the 553's gear ratio is 6.2:1 and the retrieve is 53" per handle turn. This means the spool diameter would be equal to:
Spool Diameter = square root of ((4 x retrieve rate) / (3.14 x gear ratio))
Spool Diameter = square root of ((4 x 53") / (3.14 x 6.2))
Spool Diameter = square root of (212 / 19.468)
Spool Diameter = square root of 10.8897
Spool Diameter = 3.3"
Just measured one - 2.67"dia.
Thanks for checking Jimmer.
Sal
Quote from: Jimmer on July 10, 2013, 04:56:11 PM
Just measured one - 2.67"dia.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure my math is right, I wonder if the 53" retrieve posted on the website is a misprint? It does seem like a lot of line for a reel with just 2.67" spool diameter.