HI Guys,
Yes it's me again Mr. Clueless. I have used mono all of my life and have been debating about using braided line. I have kind of shyed away from them because from what I read and hear they are hi maintenance lines to use.... Is it true? Do you have to use different knots than you do with mono. Do I have to put a topshot of mono in front of the braid and why? and is it true that you cant strike a fish for initial hookup as hard as you would with mono because it has the tendency to rip the hooks out of there mouths do to the fact that there is no stretch to the line.... Do the benefits outway these issues?
Guys I know it takes patience to deal with a newby such as myself, but think of the satisfaction of helping out someone green behind the ears and passing down your knowledge, not to mention St. Peters might take it into consideration when u get to the perly gates.. :D
Regards,
John
normally i'm a scotch drinker, but this is a discussion to be had over very cold vodka.......
Hi John,
I have been using braided lines for over 20 years now. Not Dacron, but Dyneema and Spectra weaved braided lines, and for most of my fishing, I will not use mono again. There are exceptions based on fishing location and underwater terrain.
My Pros and Cons for using braided Line -
Pros - Can immediately feel the strike, Line doesn't stretch, last a very long time (does not decay due to UV light), possitive hook sets, much thinner diameter (sinks faster, casts farther,...), you can feel what the fish is doing, greater line capacity, fish with smaller reels, if fishing live bait with no or short top shot, the live bait will swim better and will last longer due to the thinner line,
Cons - Initial cost, spooling (more controlled spooling method), unforgiving since it doesn't stretch, not very abrasion resistant, can cut your hand if unprotected with glove or finger protection, tangles are difficult to get out, short or long topshots may be needed, may need to retie knots more often if you are fishing braid to terminal tackle (abrasion, even to the ring of a swivel),
I'm sure others will add to my list.
I'd say 90% of my reels have braided line. The ones that don't are my trout fishing gear and my trolling rigs since I haven't had the chance to change them out yet.
It cost me 30 bucks or so to fill up my 9/0 with mono. I caught a deal on braid from a friend so now I h ave raid and topshot a for a while for 10 bucks. 70 dollars of braid with a 5 dollar topshot, I respool mono take a year usually so 3 years no question it's worth it. Plus what Mr.Bryan said
Aside form initial cost, the only other reason it is not in some of my reels is because it has very poor abrasion resistance. These reels are "specialty" application reels and all others have braid.
Bryan thanks for taking the time to answer some of those question. know if I understood you right. the topshot is used because braids low abrasion tolerance. Wow its funny how even the ring in a swival can ruin it. once again.. Thank you
John
Alan if your ever in New York the Vodka is on me and Iam taking about the good stuff... would be well worth it just to pick your brain... ;D
John
My take is you should always give yourself at least 10-20 yards of mono as a shock absorber to the initial hook set, especially with high drag setting. the 3-5 ft of fluoro may not be enough.
The con to doing this is that you will have at least 3 connections or minimum 2 connections from the braid to the hook. Since I always make sure the weakest portion of the connection is always from the fluoro to the hook, the connection from the braid to the mono can be done with a modified albright, a double grinner, of a FG knot and is 100% strong. The connection between the mono and fluoro could be uni-uni, double surgeon or loop to loop via spider hitch. Those knots are about 85-90% strength. From there whatever knot I tied to the hook will be the weakest. Typically I snelled my hook and that is about 80-85% strength or so..
John,
Braid is too damed expensive!! I've only a handfull of reels with braid at the moment and Im not looking forward to spooling-up the rest of my reels. The Black Pearl braid is priced right but still $150 plus to spool a Daiwa 600h, the same for my Avet EX (my two largest reels) then 12-15 more reels. I'll need to take out a loan to get them all done at the cost of several nice reels. I myself dont know where to start spooling-up with braid. Should I start with my large reels (and largest cost) or my small reels (smaller cost)? I understand and like the advantages but the cost.......... geeeez!
Leo
If you want cheap braid free fisher PE x strong braid off ebay is cheap and better than power pro, maybe. Ya don't have to be embarrassed here, that's what everybodys here to do, just learn and have fun :). Tying knots in braid is easy, just double the amount of turns with the line you'd use for a mono equivalent. Uni, Albright, etcetera all work fine. Braid lasts like forever if you don't get it cut, smaller braid is pretty tough compared to a mono of same class, but higher up, (like in the 80 class), is smaller diameter becomes a weakness. High test mono is thick and takes a lot of abuse, but braid will take one nick from a shell. That's it. IMO, light stuff braid is best, but using heavier stuff in snaggy areas or areas with obstructions mono or at least mono w. braid backing won't let you down. Cheers!
Quote from: maxpowers on October 17, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
My take is you should always give yourself at least 10-20 yards of mono as a shock absorber to the initial hook set, especially with high drag setting. the 3-5 ft of fluoro may not be enough.
I fish topshots as short as 10' and up to 200lbs with no issues.
Quote from: LTM on October 18, 2013, 03:53:51 AM
John,
Braid is too damed expensive!!
I have reels spooled with spectra that I put on close to 20 years ago that is still good, try that with mono.
LTM - you don't have to spool it all. You can back it with dacron and spool 500 yards of so of your favorite braid and then top off with some mono..
It really depends what you are after. I have started spooling almost the whole spool with braid. Yes, it is expensive, but if you keep it clean and out of the rocks it will last your lifetime. YOu can respool a reel a bunch of times with mono before you even question braid.
Ron
Quote from: Keta on October 18, 2013, 04:48:02 AM
Quote from: maxpowers on October 17, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
My take is you should always give yourself at least 10-20 yards of mono as a shock absorber to the initial hook set, especially with high drag setting. the 3-5 ft of fluoro may not be enough.
I fish topshots as short as 10' and up to 200lbs with no issues.
Keta,
I just felt that you are more likely to pull hooks with such a short topshot. Obviously s you moved up on the breaking strength the fish get bigger and have more meat to hold the hook in. When I was fishing bluefin on the 1-3 days SD fleet this summer I saw a lot of hooks got pulled on those who fished short topshot while the ones fishing longer top shot (10 yards or so) or mono had solid hook set. I myself experience the same thing thus I switched over to a 20-50 yards mono topshot and did much better.
Just a tip, don't know how yer fishin but usually with braid, sharp hooks, and right timing you can hook a fish just by reeling and applying pressure. Jerking the hook tears the mouth of the fish if you rip 'em to hard . . . .
Quote from: Dynamo on October 18, 2013, 04:59:16 AM
Just a tip, don't know how yer fishin but usually with braid, sharp hooks, and right timing you can hook a fish just by reeling and applying pressure. Jerking the hook tears the mouth of the fish if you rip 'em to hard . . . .
Typically i fished circle hook and let the fish hooked themselves. However with heavy drag, as I engaged the gear the hook sometime get pulled..With mono I am able to get that bit of stretch to let the hook buried itself in the corner of the mouth..
All my reels except a small spinner, have braid. I know the left coast guys look at things a bit different, but I don't run long topshots or long leaders. On my casting reels, the leader usually stays out of the guides (3-4 feet). On all others, a 25 ft wind on is used because that is how they come and it gives me a little to cut off. As I understand it, the reason the left coast guys like long topshots is it is usually the mono that tangles up and is easier to untangle. As far as cuts, etc, the only problem I have is with my left thumb that I guide the line on the reel with, and that is only after it has been wet awhile. A little tape or a glove fixes that. Most of the horror stories you hear about braid are just that, stories. The old original Spectra did have cutting problems etc, but most of that has been corrected with new braiding techniques. The new stuff is a lot softer. I have both old and new and can tell the difference. BTW, the Spectra doesn't actually abrade on a swivel. The bending around the ring breaks the individual fibers. The bigger the ring, the less it breaks. That is why I weld a bigger solid ring to the swivel. It helps. Knots can be a problem. Some mono knots don't work well at all in Spectra because the Spectra is so slippery. You may have to learn a few new knots but the best way is to use hollow spectra and use splices when ever you can. Probably the biggest problem with Spectra is getting it packed on a reel correctly. I've never found a BassPro or Cabela's that knew how. It has to be packed tight. I do my own for that reason.
Day,
I typically spooled what I need onto a donor like a 6/0 or something. Set about 4-6 lbs of drag and reel the line onto my intended reel. It is packed tight and solid as a rock..
Quote from: maxpowers on October 18, 2013, 05:51:25 AM
Day,
I typically spooled what I need onto a donor like a 6/0 or something. Set about 4-6 lbs of drag and reel the line onto my intended reel. It is packed tight and solid as a rock..
Try wet packing it with the same technique
There was a video on the Florida Sportman site that showed a pro bass fisherman spooling braid by setting the spool in a bucket of water.
I soak mine in water from anywhere to an hour to over night, then pack it on as tight as possible. it dries and shrinks rock solid
Quote from: maxpowers on October 18, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
Keta,
I just felt that you are more likely to pull hooks with such a short topshot. Obviously s you moved up on the breaking strength the fish get bigger and have more meat to hold the hook in. When I was fishing bluefin on the 1-3 days SD fleet this summer I saw a lot of hooks got pulled on those who fished short topshot while the ones fishing longer top shot (10 yards or so) or mono had solid hook set. I myself experience the same thing thus I switched over to a 20-50 yards mono topshot and did much better.
Use a slightly softer and longer rod (6-1/2' to 7'), I rarely pull hooks. I got in a hurry during a hot bite and used a 3' topshot to land a YFT in the 160lb range.
I don't really know anything about tuna fishing, but the circle should set deep in the jaw and not pull. Do tunas have soft mouths?
Osiris, you made a very common Forum mistake for an angler contemplating switching to braid -- you asked a question that is MUCH too general! IMHO, there's absolutely no way that each braid property can be addressed with due emphasis & detail in a single Forum thread... at least, not for every application, at once. Some aspects that are more open to debate, will do just that -- start a debate that runs away and is hard to process (e.g., top shots); while others that are more second-nature, yet critical, will be overlooked completely (e.g., arbor slippage -- http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=970.0).
PE is a completely different base material for fishing line; it has characteristics that are drastically different from nylon; EVERYTHING YOU DO, may need to be modified accordingly & is best addressed in separate Forum Topics. Bryan gave you a good, brief, concise summary, but each pro/con he mentioned is, in itself, an old-post research subject... just too much to process. Best way to avoid both, the headache of all-encompassing research AND the hassles/expense of learning by trial & error, is to DELINEATE: describe the rod, reel, rig & knots you plan to use for a given application & you'll get advice specific to your immediate needs. That way, you'll have a much better chance of using braid correctly, successfully, AND ECONOMICALLY first time out... then, you can branch out to other techniques & on-line research is more effective when it relates to some real-life experience
Quote from: Dynamo on October 18, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
Do tunas have soft mouths?
No they don't. I use Spectra for soft mouthed kokanee too.
Thought so. I use straight spectra for all kinds of things, many species also w. thinner softer mouths, and I've never had an issue. . . .
To the original poster, if you've used nothing but mono and been basically content with it why change? I find braid to be nothing but negative. Every aspect of it. I've bought so much of it trying to like it and get used to it, I could've made a house payment! For fifty years mono served me well and its stretch never cost me a fish. Braids lack of stretch has cost me lots of fish during the fight. Braids cost me a lot of fish due to its pitiful lack of abrasive strength. Braid has cost me a lot of terminal tackle due to its totally unforgiving nature to a less than a perfect knot. An important issue if you do not have the luxury of fishing out of a boat, fish at night, have to tie a knot as you stand in a hoard of mangrove bred mosquitos or suffer from middle aged eye syndrome.
To those of you who think you are getting years of service from your braid, there are now indications that braid loses a lot of strength even after less than a year of use and exposure. Remember there's more to strength than just its pulling ability.
Falling into the braid is everything camp is just the same as falling for having the latest is greatest in reels. Its simply falling prey to manufacturers marketing men who in todays business model, dictate what you want and manipulate the angler into thinking he wants what the manufacturer can make and get the most profit at selling. Not something that's going to last for ever, but something built by engineers to include planned obsolescence.
love braid line, i have caught alot of fish in dense cover and pulled um out because i use it.
I don't see braid or mono going obsolete, I will always need both until they make a braid that ca stand up to sand bars with shells
Quote from: 0119 on October 19, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
Falling into the braid is everything camp is just the same as falling for having the latest is greatest in reels. Its simply falling prey to manufacturers marketing men who in todays business model, dictate what you want and manipulate the angler into thinking he wants what the manufacturer can make and get the most profit at selling. Not something that's going to last for ever, but something built by engineers to include planned obsolescence.
Before Spectra I used a lot of Dacron, Spectra is far superior to Dacron and mono for most of my used. If you put a section of mono or Fluor on the end of your braid it lasts for many years. Spectra is not the answer to all of our fishing requirements but it fills most of mine quite well, from trolling for kokanee to flylining live bait for large YFT. I would NEVER go back to mono for deep water bottom fishing or drifting for steelhead.
With Spectra where do you come up with "planned obsolescence"? I've spooled reels used on charter boats that are used constantly and they have had the same line on them for over 5 years.
Planned obsolescence is engineered into everything made today even your spectra. And your five year old line is degraded even if you dont know it or find you are losing fish with it. I probably have more experience with spectra and dynema than anyone on this board. But not in fishing. I wore it for 25 years, 12 hours a day, 84 hours every 2 weeks. It degrades pretty darn quick just from human touch.
Well each to his own opinion, I have used spectra for 20+ years from when it first came out. I have had my issues with it but once you learn the proper knots and when to use it is one of the best options for fishing , from crappie to tuna to sharks. Topshot length is of personal preference and sometimes like when shark fishing off the beach a necessity . Rarely do you need more than a three foot topshot when fishing braid and if you really look at the pulled hook issue it is from super stiff rods with no give to locked down drags and soft mouths, put a hook in your cheek and rip 30# of drag into it in an instant and see what happens, oops hook pulled.
The real key to fishing braided line is to practice your knots a lot and get them right.
Use more mono when around obstructions.
Remember all fish don't have mouths of stone like a tarpon and hooks will pull out of soft tissue with to much drag.
Use some finness , you don't need to overpower a fish to break his will.
Don't listen to the manufacturers balony they always overpump there gimmicks to get people to buy there products.
I use solid braid mostly and have used a modified Albright for years without an issue.
Good fishing
William
Quote from: 0119 on October 19, 2013, 02:37:48 PM
Planned obsolescence is engineered into everything made today even your spectra. And your five year old line is degraded even if you dont know it or find you are losing fish with it. I probably have more experience with spectra and dynema than anyone on this board. But not in fishing. I wore it for 25 years, 12 hours a day, 84 hours every 2 weeks. It degrades pretty darn quick just from human touch.
I'm still fishing for large Pacific halibut with 20 year old Spectra and my line is as good as the day I spooled the reel.
Quote from: 0119 on October 19, 2013, 12:33:52 PM
To the original poster, if you've used nothing but mono and been basically content with it why change? I find braid to be nothing but negative. Every aspect of it. I've bought so much of it trying to like it and get used to it, I could've made a house payment! For fifty years mono served me well and its stretch never cost me a fish. Braids lack of stretch has cost me lots of fish during the fight. Braids cost me a lot of fish due to its pitiful lack of abrasive strength. Braid has cost me a lot of terminal tackle due to its totally unforgiving nature to a less than a perfect knot. An important issue if you do not have the luxury of fishing out of a boat, fish at night, have to tie a knot as you stand in a hoard of mangrove bred mosquitos or suffer from middle aged eye syndrome.
To those of you who think you are getting years of service from your braid, there are now indications that braid loses a lot of strength even after less than a year of use and exposure. Remember there's more to strength than just its pulling ability.
Falling into the braid is everything camp is just the same as falling for having the latest is greatest in reels. Its simply falling prey to manufacturers marketing men who in todays business model, dictate what you want and manipulate the angler into thinking he wants what the manufacturer can make and get the most profit at selling. Not something that's going to last for ever, but something built by engineers to include planned obsolescence.
First of all, most of the things you say braid cost you look more like you failing to adapt to a different way of fishing. No, braid is not the answer to everything, but it is far superior to mono for many things. Like Keta, I used Dacron before Spectra and for the same reasons, mainly lack of stretch.Then I mostly bottom fished and mono required heavy weights and broom stick rods. Dacron and Spectra allowed much lighter gear and much more fun fishing. I absolutely refuse to drop mono 200 to 400 feet. It is, to me, a waste of time and energy. There is a better way to do it. While I agree that many things fall into marketing trap, I don't think braid is one of them, and I rarely let any marketing man dictate anything to me. As a general rule, I don't believe anything a manufacturer tells me without proof. Remember, Spectra was never intended to be fishing line. Izor saw a need and adapted it from Kite string.
Dayone thanks for your insight.. you make a good point!
John
issue it is from super stiff rods with no give to locked down drags and soft mouths, put a hook in your cheek and rip 30# of drag into it in an instant and see what happens, oops hook pulled.
Or face ripped, LOL. He really does have a point. Rods are meant to help you, they're shock absorbers, not simply sticks. As I've said braid and how you go along fishing it really does depends on where you fish. and some people have perfect experience w. it and some do not :-\. ("I lost a good fish to braid, I hate it forever." "Got a good fish to the boat w. it, means its perfect.") Note: not accusing anyone, all of the advice on this post is good advice by me. Only my humble opinion, as always.
Use what your happy with and works, not always a good thing to reinvent the wheel every time something new comes out. imho
But...
I run mainly mono and most of my tackle is set up for that, I do find the braids have their strong points also, jigging in deep water and heavier jigs for one.
While I like a bit of line stretch having your rod go up and down and the jig stay stationary doesn't work very well.
I also do a bit of musky fishing and the braids work better imho for that.
Visit any of the fishing forums and you'll most likely find many and lengthily debates on mono versus braid.
Set a rod up for it and give braid a try on different situations and see when it works or doesn't work for you.
Not everybody fishes the same, what works for me might not work for you or anybody else.
Good luck either way. :)
Al
Quote from: saltydog on October 19, 2013, 04:30:25 PM
Well each to his own opinion, I have used spectra for 20+ years from when it first came out. I have had my issues with it but once you learn the proper knots and when to use it is one of the best options for fishing , from crappie to tuna to sharks. Topshot length is of personal preference and sometimes like when shark fishing off the beach a necessity . Rarely do you need more than a three foot topshot when fishing braid and if you really look at the pulled hook issue it is from super stiff rods with no give to locked down drags and soft mouths, put a hook in your cheek and rip 30# of drag into it in an instant and see what happens, oops hook pulled.
The real key to fishing braided line is to practice your knots a lot and get them right.
Use more mono when around obstructions.
Remember all fish don't have mouths of stone like a tarpon and hooks will pull out of soft tissue with to much drag.
Use some finness , you don't need to overpower a fish to break his will.
Don't listen to the manufacturers balony they always overpump there gimmicks to get people to buy there products.
I use solid braid mostly and have used a modified Albright for years without an issue.
Good fishing
William
Saltydog what knot do I use to add a top shot of mono to braid?
He uses an improved albright, i like to use a 8 turn surgeons loop to a improved bristol. Its mostly personal preference
Thank you, Sharker!