Hi everyone,
first time poster, but have been lurking around on this forum a bit for the last year or so, and I'm very impressed by the amount of knowledge gathered here. I originally came here after stumbling upon Alan's handle/drag upgrade for my TLD20, which got me started maintaining my own reels.
Lately I've been looking at some of the threads regarding ball bearing/handle binding problems on smaller leverdrag reels, which seems to be a common issue. The idea of replacing the left spool bearing/right side pinion bearing with angular contact bearings has been discussed, but finding affordable bearings in the correct dimensions has proven difficult, at least for the most popular smaller leverdrags (Avets etc). I haven't seen anyone actually getting as far as testing this for smaller reels, so I for one am not sure what sort of performance boost, if any, is to be expected.
Anyway, I recently got a good deal on an Avet "clone" made by Omoto. In this thread (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=46.0), Alan dissects an Omoto VS10. The reel I bought is essentially identical, except mine is a size 12 lowspeed, and it's being sold under a different name here in Norway (Preywinder PLD 12 LS).
Here's the reel:
(http://i.imgur.com/Q3Clhiy.jpg)
And the parts diagram:
(http://i.imgur.com/9eT3L5N.jpg)
Upon receiving the reel, I immediately cracked it open. Yeah, never would have done that before finding this site. Anyway, the left spool bearing and the right sideplate pinion bearing are both the same size, which is 7x19x6 mm. As it turns out, angular contact bearings in this dimension seem to be readily available, at least I found these two without much effort:
707C from VXB (http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit14711)
707 CD/P4A from SKF (http://www.skf.com/group/system/SearchResult.html?search=707+CD%2FP4A¤tSearch=707+CD%2FP4A&tabId=1¤tPage=null¤tPgSize=10¤tFileType=0&WT.z_oss_ref=Knowledge+Centre&file_types=0&tab=2&isAjax=true)
So, my plan is to buy two bearings, then measure how much drag on "strike" is possible before feeling any noticable binding when cranking the handle with both the factory bearings and the replacement angular contact bearings. Findings will be reported in this thread if there is an interest.
My question is: are any of the bearings above suitable for this mod? I'm pretty new to all of this, and do not have a good understanding of the various bearing specifications and standards. The VXB bearing is available from both Amazon and eBay, not sure where to buy the SFK one. Does anyone have other recommendations for a suitable and affordable bearing in this size? Also, any other advice / ideas / comments would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
--
Vabein
i would do a full service on this reel, spool it up and then see if you get the drag range you need. if it falls short, then consider stiffening up the belleville stack to see if you can increase the drag range. if you start to get some side load, THEN consider an upgrade to the right main side plate bearing. you may find that the reel performs adequately just as it is.
I have performed this mod (angular contact bearings) on an Okuma Andros LD. The binding issues were reduced to minimal. Further tests indicated a drag improvement of approx. 10lbs for comparable binding (ie approx. max of 34lb!). Running at stock drag (24lb max) hardly any binding. The only downside to this mod, on the Andros, was the cost of the bearings :( Most angular contact bearings are not stainless - TSI321 and marine grease are your friends - service regularly. Just do it! It's how we learn (to spend money :D)!
Yes, it is good that this subject came up... (again) I've been intending to update the other Avet threads, but this came first.
I have decided to make a serious attempt at sourcing and supplying for sale, the elusive and desireable Angular Contact pinion bearing for Avet reels. I have a half a dozen suppliers and manufacturers to go through, and bought an Avet reel for testing.
Stay tuned.
Good luck with your Omoto project. I'll let you know if i think of a good supplier for your SKF bearing.
.
Alan: Yeah, did the full service, spooled up the reel and did some tests. Was using a ratty old spring scale, and pulled directly from the reel, fully spooled. As far as I can tell, the handle starts to bind slightly with the drag set at 5 lbs at strike. Meaning that at 5 lbs, it doesn't "fall" under its own weight. Binding kept increasing as I tried progressively higher settings, and was quite noticeable at maximum, which I measured to 13 lbs at strike before losing freespool. At this point the preset knob was very close to fully tightened. I don't really need a lot more drag for this reel, but I would like a smoother handle at the higher settings, and to be able to fish it at 10+ lbs of drag at strike without feeling I'm damaging it. I'll try modifying the belleville stack as you suggested and see where that gets me.
Tiddlebasher: Sounds very promising :-) looked up another thread with more details from your Andros project, I know what you mean about learning to spend money, ouch! The VXB bearings I linked to are a lot more affordable at <$13, hope it's due to them being a more commonly used dimension and not because they suck.
Robert: I think you'll have no problems getting rid of that product if you find a good fit. Good luck, and thanks for keeping an eye open for the 707-sized bearing as well.
Thanks for commenting!
--
Vabein
5 pounds is way too low...... :-\
Quick update: after modifying the belleville stack from
)()()
to
(()()
I'm more than happy with the drag range - was able to get 18 pounds at strike before loosing freespool, which happened almost exactly as the preset knob bottomed out. This of course didn't resolve the handle binding issue, but made me optimistic that I could end up with a nice strong and smooth drag provided that the angular bearings work out as I hope.
Sooo i went ahead and ordered a pair of the VXB bearings from eBay. For science!
Will update as soon as they arrive and I'm able to test them.
--
Vabein
Bearings arrived in the mail today, so I thought I'd update this thread.
Before installing them, I once more measured the drag setting at which the handle no longer would move/fall under its own weight. With the original bearings, I measured this to 6 pounds at strike.
Here are the replacement bearings, VXB 707C:
(http://i.imgur.com/HfZVt6s.jpg)
The outer ring is wider on the side with the writing/model number on it. From what I've read, any thrust on the inner race should then come from the opposite side. This is an image I found that seems to back this up:
(http://www.nationalprecision.com/library/newsletter/2008-Vol1-No1_files/0811NL_r20_c3.jpg)
So I figure the side with the model number on it should go down when inserting it into the right side plate. Here's how I installed it (bottom one):
(http://i.imgur.com/LFZXvb2.jpg)
I installed the second replacement bearing (left spool) in the same orientation.
After reassembling the reel, I once more adjusted the preset button until the handle would no longer move/fall under its own weight.
6 pounds again. :-\
Before doing any further test on higher drag settings, I just wanted to make sure I've installed these the in the correct orientation.
Anyone?
--
Vabein
i dont know which side the numbers are on, but you should be able to feel the difference. One way is loose & sloppy; the other is taut and stable. Taut & stable side goes up, when going into the sideplate.
Interestingly, as a sidenote, I've been busy with the Avet bearings. Going to try a thing tomorrow. Stand by.
.
Valbein and Robert,
Im watching like a hawk. It figures that you guys would start this as soon as I have over $100 of bearings in the mail for my "AVETS" ???. At least with your success, I can return some.
Keep it up guys,
Leo
Just checked with VXB on their homepage livechat, seems the load should go on the side with the wider outer race.
So, apparently I got it backwards, will reconfigure tomorrow and run another test. Hope I didn't ruin the bearings :-/
--
Vabein
Update: reinstalled the bearings with other side up, reassembled and ran my test again.
3 pounds this time.
Overall, a pretty underwhelming experience so far. But at least I'm now pretty sure my first installation was correct, and that the VXB rep in fact mixed it up. To me it makes sense that the side with the wider outer race would be face down in the bearing cup, so that when the pinion gear pushes the inner race, which pushes the ball, which pushes the outer race on the opposite side, the wider outer race will give additional support for the axial load.
I'll flip the bearings once more and try some higher drag settings to see how the VXB bearings compare to the originals then.
By the way, could something else be happening? Like the inner race coming in contact with the bottom of the bearing cup?
--
Vabein
Valbein and Robert,
In regards to the orientation of the axial bearing. Im no mechanical engineer however, I would think that the flat/non-hooded side of the bearing goes up aginst the bearing cup away from the opposing force, with the hooded/protruding portion of the outer race facing the lateral opposing force. This orientation lends the inner and outer race against the bearing cup as a solid unit from which to start generating opposing force against the outer race, while minizing force to the inner bearing race and affecting its rotational/radial motion.
I COULD BE COMPLETELY WRONG ??? ??? ???,
Leo
QuoteSo I figure the side with the model number on it should go down when inserting it into the right side plate.
Yes, looking at your pictures, that seems to make sense.
Quote...until the handle would no longer move/fall under its own weight...
Well idunno about that. I agree with the need to find some kind of quantifiable reference, but a handle falling under its own weight? It must be a very good handle indeed. Not all reels can do that on even a very good day with no drag at all.
So really, install the bearings as you think best and try some real drag. See what happens.
QuoteBy the way, could something else be happening? Like the inner race coming in contact with the bottom of the bearing cup?
No. Installed correctly, the bearings measurements are as per their specifications. BUT installed backwards, yes- that can be so.
Leo, i honestly didn't understand that, but it sounded very well thought out. Gotta have some coffee and read that a few times.
.
Robert,
Almost laughed out my chair ;D ;D ;D. Yeah, what he said (live chat person): the load should face the side with the wider outer race. By exerting force on the outer race before harming the inner race provides axil/lateral load by the bearing. See, simple as mud.... or is it clear as mud.
Hey Robert, I know you tend to hang out in another Nebuli some where and Im glad you like to fish ;D ;D ;D. I wonder if you'd like tocheck out the discussion on powder coating. Darn it, I forgot where it was at........its definitely above this area. Check it out Robert and leave some feed back.
Thanx,
Leo
Edit: Found it in General procedures, here's the link http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9622.0
Are the belleville washers in the correct or desired configuration? Also, check to see if they were "flattened" when you bumped up to the higher drag setting of 18. It would be interesting to see if the ACBs can alleviate binding albeit it won't come close to what a thrust bearing can do.
Thanks for commenting, here's another update:
Jonathan: Belleville stack is back to the original configuration and I'm getting the same drag range as before, so no damage there.
Robert, Leo: Well I've definitely concluded about which way to install them, more on that below. I played around with some higher drag settings, and honestly I can't tell much of a difference in the range from 6 - 15 pounds of drag. Must have swapped between original bearings and the AC bearings 6 or 7 times. Binding is by no means awful, but I was hoping for some sort of improvement.
Anyway, the bearing cup is a really tight fit, and to swap bearings I've been warming up the sideplate by placing it in a plastic bag in hottish water for a couple of minutes. The bearing still won't come out easily, but I'm able to tap them out via two small holes in the bearing cup (positioned above the inner race). So during one of these swaps, the inner race, cage and balls fall out, leaving the outer race stuck. I'm then able to remove the outer race as well. After some cleaning up, I now have this:
(http://i.imgur.com/ic2soce.jpg)
I notice that the inner race is completely symmertrical:
(http://i.imgur.com/KziJljC.jpg)
The cage as well (irregularities are due to residual grease):
(http://i.imgur.com/t14tsHY.jpg)
The outer race however is definitely designed to support load in the direction I suspected, i.e "downwards" from the camera, and opposite from what the VXB rep told me:
(http://i.imgur.com/o7zPEBO.jpg)
Reassembling the bearing was actually real easy, and after cleaning it out with lighter fluid it spun just fine.
So I'm not sure what's next. Any thoughts on the VXB design? I was expecting the inner race to be asymmetrical as well, so that the the balls would be pushed at an angle against the outer race...
--
Vabein
Valbein,
Glad the bearing went back together and spins ok, this should suggest that the bearing wasnt harmed in the previous testing. Those later close-up pictures are great. Would it be possible to take a closeup showing the wider outer race to reflect the tracking of the bearings in the race and describe the direction of force.
Thank you,
Leo
A symmetrically shaped inner race would still place any side load on the contacting edge of the inner race. That would explain why there is no difference in performance between a standard roller bearing and the ACB.
I don't believe the inner race is supposed to experience contact, the "long" side of the outer race makes contact first to protect the inner race. Or I'm an idiot and am completely wrong.
Ron
The inner ring on all AC bearings I have are symmetrical.
The inner flange of the outer ring takes the axial load (side pressure). This is the side that you put facing away from the reel. ie flange to the right of the pinion.
Here's are some pics of my SKF AC bearings disassembled.
Check my post from last March
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6771.0
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/pork190/P1000448.jpg) (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/P1000448.jpg.html)
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/pork190/P1000444.jpg) (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/P1000444.jpg.html)
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/pork190/P1000442.jpg) (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/P1000442.jpg.html)
Wow! You must have a nice Camera! ;)
Gentlemen,
Ran accross this thread in a post in the Avet section (Yet another Avet bearing question....) which has some interesting points especially regarding a "bushing" instead of a bearing? Copied the entire thread in order that the statements are not taken out of contex:
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.
People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:
1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.
2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.
3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.
All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
Quote from: LTM on February 02, 2014, 05:55:39 PM
Gentlemen,
Ran accross this thread in a post in the Avet section (Yet another Avet bearing question....) which has some interesting points especially regarding a "bushing" instead of a bearing? Copied the entire thread in order that the statements are not taken out of contex:
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.
People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:
1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.
2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.
3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.
All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
As that is my post I will expand a little bit so that the application and meaning is clear.
As I understand the evolution of fishing reels, the basic Penn winches (ie reels like the conventional Surf Master and spinning 700 Series) used (and some still do) a plethora of bushings where we think of bearings as being the "standard" for smooth free spinning. When the Senator series came out (a more premium model) they touted their use of one bearing as state of the art for casting. Needless to say, this opened up a Pandora's box of both increased casting and fishing performance and maintenance nightmares. Bushings are fantastic for consistency and long life and ease of maintenance, but handle turning pressure is far higher on a day to day basis and spools do not get as much free spinning.
Fisherman love reels that have a handle that is easy to turn with no fish on the line as they save effort over the day. Free spool is a holy grail for many as it can lead to more fish caught (ie casting distance or free swimming live baits as the moment of inertia the bait has to overcome to take line off of the reel is less).
So a bushing rather than a pinion bearing would live longer than you or I probably will. They simply will laugh in the face of the axial load put on them by the mechanism in an LD reel in comparison. Unfortunately, the handle turning pressure would get dramatically stiffer as the drag preset went up and the increase in handle turning pressure under load might be completely unacceptable for market acceptance.
In some sense the bearings both make the LD reel design possible, but also simply limit how much they can do for us because simple bearings that aren't too big and expensive are needed for cost reasons. The Angular Contact bearing remains the Holy Grail of LD reels. We just have to get someone to commit to the number needed and the increased cost. Guys at Avet and Penn etc have probably lost sleep over this plenty of nights. Unfortunately it is risky to take the plunge and do it (as in my experience people lose jobs when they make bad design/marketing decisions, even if they are right. The market doesn't care if you are right. The consumer cares about price, cosmetics and smoothness 9 times out of 10. It can be impossible to overcome their perceptions that lower price is always better until they have gone through many cheaper models).
In the quoted post where the fisherman is reeling a lot of lead back and forth off of the bottom the increased reliability of a bushing for the Pinion might serve him perfectly well as it would be immortal and he likely deals with cold water fishes that don't fight hard. If he has no casting or light use then the additional friction from the bushing can just be compensated by a bigger handle and then effectively doesn't exist. It's only when we want our reels to do many things well that bearings really come into their own (ie cast, fish artificial lures, let live baits free swim).
TL;DR IF you want your reel to last forever, replace nearly every bearing with an oil injected brass bushing. See Squidders and Jig Masters and the 740Z as examples. These reels however have limited acceptance in the marketplace because we place so much emphasis on casting distance and "smoothness" ie low handle turning pressure at the retail level. What we need are guys that can take an angular contact bearing fit reel and a regular LD reel then dial up the drag preset and show the consumer what they are getting.
best regards
ps I think someone somewhere was gonna do some testing with a bushing rather than pinion bearing in their LD Reel, then again it becomes a problem of finding the exact right size to fit the housing of their reel and the spool shaft which I think is a rather unusual size combination for commonly available bushings. You can make a reel nearly immortal with bushings, the questions is how many people will enjoy fishing it.
Excellent explanation John, by the way where have you been? You can't take those long vacations, unless related to fishing. ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 02, 2014, 07:14:17 PM
Excellent explanation John, by the way where have you been? You can't take those long vacations, unless related to fishing. ;D
And great to see you back as well Sal.
I am marooned inland in a research project. Stay tuned, should have a tutorial on the Penn Torque 25N lever drag in the next few days.
best regards
Haven't done any more testing on my end, but just wanted to follow up on some of the replies.
Leo: Sorry, didn't get any more closeups before reassembling the bearing, but I think it's pretty clear which way the load goes, as confirmed by Limitdown's pics and explaination.
Limitdown: Thanks for sharing! Seems the SKF bearing design is quite similar to the VXB. I'm glad you're getting the results you wanted for your project. Were you able to compare the performance of the AC bearings vs the factory bearings in any structured way? Of course the important thing is that reel works they way you want it, but it would be interesting to be able to put some numbers to it.
John: Interesting points regarding why manufacturers haven't done this already.
As I said earlier, I'm not sure what to try next. One thing I considered was setting up a simple test (outside the reel) to measure how well the bearings spin under different (axial) loads, while eliminating as many "external" variables as possible. Any ideas for a rig for this? I'm not even sure what sort of forces we're talking about - how much "weight" is placed on the inner race of the pinion bearing when I'm at, say, 10 pounds of drag?
--
Vabein
QuoteAs I said earlier, I'm not sure what to try next. One thing I considered was setting up a simple test (outside the reel) to measure how well the bearings spin under different (axial) loads, while eliminating as many "external" variables as possible. Any ideas for a rig for this? I'm not even sure what sort of forces we're talking about - how much "weight" is placed on the inner race of the pinion bearing when I'm at, say, 10 pounds of drag?
Yes, I've been sort of ruminating over that... not sure 'zackly how, but maybe something in the lathe... As far as "weight" is concerned, it can be derived from the quantity, dimension and compression of the belleville spring washers. More or less, anyway. And i happen to know that the full compression of the bellevilles in the Avet = the total rise of the cam, within 0.1 mm.
.
Regarding the orientation of an ACB:
The wider outer race should always be against the load bearing non-moving surface. For our purposes this would be the sideplate and the spool. The spindle is considered to be the moving part.
This is true for a pullbar or pushbar system. The only difference being pullbar - left side spool and right side plate. Pushbar - right side spool and leftside plate.
Guys,
The orientation of this bearing has been bugging me for the past couple of days. Since I dont know the specific names for the different parts of the bearing (which may be adding to confusion here), I hope to use general language in a specific manner. In general terms, deformity is what causes bearings to fail. Deformity being worn balls inside of races, rusty ball bearings (irregular surfaces), rusty/worn races and surfaces, crushed/warped outside races as well as inside race's trapping the balls from movement. Therefore any deformed surface or component of the bearing will slow down or stop the bearing from smooth operation. That said; it would seem that the standard bearings are being crushed from the excessive side/lateral load. This bearing with the recessed inner race would be oriented so that the inner race is recessed from the opposing force, NOT still subjected to the entirity of the opposing force to be collapsed as normal. By orientating the inner race away from the opposing force would allow the extended outer race to provide a sort of buffer or crush zone before the inner race and ball bearings are crushed to a point of non-operation.
Leo
Edit: Understand the flaw in this process now.
Quote from: limitdown on January 31, 2014, 02:24:20 PM
The inner ring on all AC bearings I have are symmetrical.
The inner flange of the outer ring takes the axial load (side pressure). This is the side that you put facing away from the reel. ie flange to the right of the pinion.
First off, the SKF ACB is
NOT a
true angular contact bearing if it has a symmetrically shaped inner race.
Since the load is applied by the spool and pinion gear which is inserted into the
inner race of the pinion bearing, you actually will need an extended flange. This is why there is the same characteristic binding issue as with a standard radial bearing. The only thing that is the same with the SKF ACBs is the inner race, in that it
is still symmetrical. Form=function. Without an increase in contact area in respect to the inner race, the pressure distribution to the balls is unchanged given the same surface area. Since the surface area has no change, the result is unnoticeable.
The cutaway of a true ACB bearing is shown below:
(http://www.gsportbmx.co.uk/support/rideuktech/angular%20contact%20bearing.jpg) (http://www.gsportbmx.co.uk/support/rideuktech/angular%20contact%20bearing.jpg)
If you placed a true ACB in an Avet, the pinion bearing issue might be a thing of the past. However, it all depends on the quality, tolerance, mating of balls to race surfaces, etc. Now, if I just had more time to actually tinker with this stuff... Deciding to become a commercial fisherman has hindered my tinkering time.
hey, you're fishing in 3 hours. go to bed!
I can't poke my head on this forum without staying up longer than I want to. Luckily, the captain called and we shove off at 4:30am