Hi everyone!
It's been quite a while since I was here last, and sadly life has been too busy to go fishing that much. I also needed a break, not to become fed up and grow tired of it all.
Lately though, I've felt that my interest in fishing has started to head in the direction of my previous passion. Luckily, I should say.
However, one thing that I left unanswered last year was that the problem with the bearing(s) in the Avet LX 6/3 just won't seem to stop. I bought two full kits from Boca, and sadly the pinion AND the drive shaft bearing (the one on the inside of the side plate) failed in my friend's reel, on the second trip since he had the bearings installed.
Now, I don't believe that Boca's bearings are bad, it's more of the fact that this area of the reel takes such a beating from our deep sea fishing with heavy sinkers, lots and lots of reeling etc, that it just won't hold up to the pressure.
So I'm really trying to find bearings that will fit the part, and withstand the amount of pressure longer than the new ones have done.
With that in mind, I've written to Boca and explained the situation. Sadly, since the last time I spoke with them, my contact at the company has moved on to a new job. Another gentleman at Boca now answers my e-mails, and it's his latest reply that I need the expertise of the people in this forum. Here's the e-mail:
"Hello Jon,
How are you lubing the 1601 bearing? This could have an affect on the bearing and may be the cause of early break down. I am wondering if a sealed bearing may be your answer in this application. All our bearings are what is classed as deep grooved bearings. Also, as this bearing goes in the pinion does it need to spin as freely as spool bearings? I look forward to your reply so that we can try and find a solution for you. Regards, xxx"
Now I'd like to hear if I might have made a mistake installing the last bearings.. are bearings, which are supplied dry, meant to be opened and lubed inside? Cos what I did was to lube the entire outside of the bearing, as I was given the impression that the bearing was suppose to run dry inside because of the ceramic balls that they contain. Have I messed up this part?
Also, I'm not qualified to answer the second part of the e-mail: Does the pinion bearing need to spin as freely as spool bearings? I'm not familiar with this.
I really hope someone can help me out, the last time I was here the response was great! Thanks for reading this. Regards, Jon - Norway
There seems to be a big problem with these Avets and the bearings. I am mainly a Senator man, and not much help to you Jon, but be patient. There are Gurus of all fishing reels here that will help with your problem? ;)
Robert Janssen is fixing to come up with something. This Guy is a Genius! Watch this topic.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9456.0;topicseen
are bearings, which are supplied dry, meant to be opened and lubed inside? Yes Cos what I did was to lube the entire outside of the bearing, Well, that is good too, since it hinders corrosion and allows the part to be removed at a future time more easily as I was given the impression that the bearing was suppose to run dry inside because of the ceramic balls that they contain. Ah, a ceramic bearing? Well there is some truth to that, but is the bearing wholly ceramic, or only ceramic hybrid? Have I messed up this part? Naw, i don't think so. The BOCA guy's comment was worthy of thought though- seals do keep a lot of crud out of the bearing. And crud (foreign matter) is a foe of all bearings.
Also, I'm not qualified to answer the second part of the e-mail: Does the pinion bearing need to spin as freely as spool bearings? No, not even close. Pinion bearing only rotates as you turn the handle. Like, 200 RPM. Spool while casting, 10 000-20 000 RPM. BUT, it should definitely turn freely and unhindered, yes
Oh yeah- Pinion bearing IS the one in the sideplate. Also have a look at the spool bearing, left side. They're the ones who do the most. The ones inbetween (spool right hand side and in the drive washer assembly) are of somewhat lesser importance. I mean, of course they're important, but just not as vitally so as the others.
And about the Avet bearing solution project, yes... I'm working on it. Takes a lot of doing. More later. Long story.
.
Jon,
I think one of the issues here is the use of ceramic bearings in your spool bearings AND "Heavy weights". Also the need to use "grease" to "pack" your pinion bearing and left side plate bearings.
The hybrid ceramic bearings have ceramic bearings and sst cages, this mix give the handle "hybrid" bearings. Instead of sst bearings and sst components. Typicall ceramic/hybrid bearings are use for throwing "light" (bass angler light) lures distance. Since your using heavy weights, this would not seem to be their original purpose/forte. Its also my understanding that ceramic berings require high maintenance to maintain effency/performance, due to ceramic dust/wear accumilations. Ceramics seem to be more fragile than heavy duty.
You may want to go with ABEC5 SST bearings instead.
Leo
Jon
Since you keep going through pinion bearings, I have to ask at what drag pressure are you fishing your LX? Sure you might get one bad bearing but a on going problem sounds like something else is happening. I worked for the largest Avet dealer for a couple of years and my father and myself both fish Avet reels. Most if not all the bearing problems I have seen is by people over fishing their reels, meaning usung more drag than the reel was designed for. The two oldest Avets we own are both about 7 years old and neither one has had any bearing replaced or bearing issues.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 30, 2014, 06:15:18 AM
Jon
Since you keep going through pinion bearings, I have to ask at what drag pressure are you fishing your LX? Sure you might get one bad bearing but a on going problem sounds like something else is happening. I worked for the largest Avet dealer for a couple of years and my father and myself both fish Avet reels. Most if not all the bearing problems I have seen is by people over fishing their reels, meaning usung more drag than the reel was designed for. The two oldest Avets we own are both about 7 years old and neither one has had any bearing replaced or bearing issues.
x2... my P ex4/0 is 7 yrs old.. 4yr old bearing...set at 28lbs and i haven't had a bearing failure yet..though I'll still be looking at the A/C bearing option when it comes around
Hi! Thanks for all the input, I appreciate that. I'll answer some of the questions as follow:
1. Too high drag setting and thereby damaging the bearings? - No, to my knowledge this has not happened. I/we are aware of this, and our fishing does rarely include having to change the drag much at all - as our deep sea fishing is more based on pumping the fish from sometimes as much as 600 meters, but usually the fish are not fighters per say. So the drag is set carefully, and I/we never try to change the drag without putting the reel in "Free".
2. The ceramic ball bearings. - Actually these were recommended to me by the gentleman at Boca, to solve the problem with the standard pinion bearing failing in the LX 6/3 reels (I've got about 5-6 fishing buddies with exactly the same problem regarding this reel). I'm far from any expert in bearings, so I figured I'd listen to his advice. Here's the info from the bearings:"Stainless Ceramic Hybrid, Metal Shields, Grade 10 SI3N4 Ceramic Balls".
Again, thanks for the quick response and good input. I'd really like to find a more permanent solution to the bearing problem, the only reel I've got issues with is the LX 6/3.. my SX MC 5.3 has been outstanding.
Jon,
Don't think I'm saying your doing anything wrong but with a ongoing problem there most likely has to be one common denomniator. Like using Occam's razor I try to find the simplest answer first. You say you set the drag "carefully" but at what pound of pressure are you setting it?
EDIT: Also since your SX has the 5.3 gears it is a older model, is your LX an older model also? There was been some upgrades from the older model Avets. Is your LX what they call engraved or does it have the etched writing and picture on it?
The SX 5.3 is the updated model. I believe the original had a 4.7 or 4.9, but definitely sub 5:1
Please check my Angular Contact bearing mod from March of last year (2013)
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6771.0
Many people since taken this idea and put it into other brands. The Omoto mod last month uses the same concept as mine.
In a nutshell. The pinion and left spool bearings take lots of axial load (side load) in addition to some radial load (spinning load).
Standard deep groove radial ball bearings are made to handle mainly radial (spinning) load and very little axial (side load).
For most radial bearings, maximum axial load is approximately 1/4 of the radial (spinning load).
The small avets use tiny bearings for the pinion and left spool. This means that the amount of axial load they can take is tiny.
The solution would be for avet to use much larger radial bearings, or to use angular contact bearings.
Regarding ceramic bearings. I had some full silicon nitride bearings that I slapped into my Makaira 50W. I removed them as soon as I received the proper angular contact bearings. the reason is that although silicon nitride is extremely hard, it's also brittle. I was scared that heavy pressures would crush my balls. If you're going with aluminum oxide balls (white-colored), they're a heckuva lot more brittle than SiN3 balls, so definitely skip that idea.
No crushing of the balls! :D
and much less likely to happen with balls of steel
Sorry Jon you are correct I mixed up the 5.1 gears (older) with the 5.3 (newer). Off the top of my head and without looking at my SX with my glasses I thought the newer gearing was 5.8.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 31, 2014, 03:55:00 AM
Jon,
Don't think I'm saying your doing anything wrong but with a ongoing problem there most likely has to be one common denomniator. Like using Occam's razor I try to find the simplest answer first. You say you set the drag "carefully" but at what pound of pressure are you setting it?
EDIT: Also since your SX has the 5.3 gears it is a older model, is your LX an older model also? There was been some upgrades from the older model Avets. Is your LX what they call engraved or does it have the etched writing and picture on it?
I'm not sure what it equals in pounds, but I haven't had the LX higher than 6 (out of 12) on the drag button setting. Surely this must be within the capacity of a high quality ball bearing? The side plate of the LX has etched writing and picture, you feel the details in the sideplate if you move a fingertip across it.
I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.
People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:
1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.
2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.
3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.
All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like an Okuma 8II or Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
What I did was go to the HXJ Raptor for this, I often still use my 349's and 113H "Tank" for Pacific halibut but when I want/need a LD the HXJ is my reel of choice.
Quote from: Keta on February 02, 2014, 04:37:59 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like an Okuma 8II or Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
What I did was go to the HXJ Raptor for this, I often still use my 349's and 113H "Tank" for Pacific halibut but when I want/need a LD the HXJ is my reel of choice.
Absolutely right Keta and I will edit my post to be fair to Avet. The Raptor series with it's dual drags has a better distribution of axial load and should perform great for this application.
best
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.
People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:
1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.
2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.
3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.
All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
So what you're saying is that you don't believe the LX 6/3 can handle heavy sinkers, deep sea fishing and a lot of reeling - without failing a bearing with quite a short periode of time? Or did I misunderstand your reply?
Quote from: Jon_Kol on February 03, 2014, 08:08:05 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 02, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
I agree with the above that a simple stainless bearing is your better choice than ceramic for the axial loads that are the bane of Avet reels, in general. Unfortunately, BOCA customer service did not seem to have an understanding of your needs and their product. If they really wanted to help you they would recommend a bushing rather than any bearing for utterly trouble free cranking for your application.
People love the basic Avets that fish them precisely as they were intended (Southern California techniques) and do not have a "heavy hand" with their tools. The rest of us find:
1. Avet pinon bearings are too small.
2. An SX or even LX is not designed for the type of fishing you describe as I understand them. It is a light live bait, light live bait trolling or casting reel not designed for heavy winching of lead day in, day out regardless of drag setting.
3. They hold up fine for their intended use, but are under engineered like most inexpensive lever drag reels for the average guy who can't understand that pushing the drag lever to full with a generous preset destroys his pinion bearing. "Why does it go to full if full destroys the reel?" is what the average guy thinks.
All reels are not suited to all tasks. Simple bottom fishing with generous amounts of lead are very well suited to star drag reels with mechanical dogs, low gear ratios or a big long handle mated to the gear ratio and your weight/target species. Replace the bearings with bushings, add a stainless gear sleeve and you literally have something that will last a century with routine maintenance.
If you need more instant drag like lever drag reels provide then you might have more success with heavier reels like the Avet Raptor series or Okuma 8II, Penn 12VSX and their large pinion bearings and 2 speed mechanical advantage.
So what you're saying is that you don't believe the LX 6/3 can handle heavy sinkers, deep sea fishing and a lot of reeling - without failing a bearing with quite a short periode of time? Or did I misunderstand your reply?
Well, in a short answer, yes. Particularly when using a ceramic bearing that is experiencing axial loads as you have found. You should get better life out of quality stainless bearings of the same size.
This class of Avet and their near (clone) competitors are really the lightest duty of any of the full metal LD reels. Look at the weights compared to the same size dual drag reels listed. The Okuma and Penn are near 33oz (924 grams) and are built accordingly. The nearest Avet in size is almost half that.
The Avets light weight has it's advantages when you fish the "traditional" southern California techniques that it was designed for. However, it is not at the top of most peoples list for a deep drop reel with heavy lead. It's a reel for light weights most of the time, with good capability when more drag is needed quickly (ie need to push to full to stop a run) some of the time. But they eat bearings when you do.
Classic star drag reels with mechanical dog and ratchet anti-reverse are the most reliable choice for deep drop lead year in, year out.
It's just a case of what kind of refinement you want on a given day like Keta posted when he goes to the Raptor dual drag and it's resulting better distribution of axial loads.
For the exact same fishing you do not get more reliability for more money when you go from Star Drag to LD reels. Has never, ever been the case. What you get in an LD reel is more performance in some areas we value (ie, higher potential drag for the size, 2-speed etc), but more maintenance hassles.
best regards
Any merit in this train of thought?
http://www.thesportingwanglers.co.uk/nick-s-blog/nick-s-thoughts/lever-drag-reels
"If a thrust bearing (designed to take axial loads) was placed in the side plate, the ball race was then installed and the spur gear bearing surface was machined slightly longer than the width of the ball race, then when the drag was operated the axial loading would be placed on to the thrust bearing designed to withstand these forces. The axial load on the ball race supporting the spur gear would be eliminated and increased drag presures could be applied without any handle binding issues."
The cure would be to replace the deep groove pinion bearing (inherently weak) with a flanged angular contact bearing that is designed to take both axial and thrust loading.
Quote from: Keta on February 04, 2014, 02:53:37 PM
The cure would be to replace the deep groove pinion bearing (inherently weak) with a flanged angular contact bearing that is designed to take both axial and thrust loading.
Hi
you have written "the cure"
Am I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?
Seriously, I am not trolling. I have been reading this site and others rather intensively , trying to play catch up, and a considered response will be welcomed.
Alan began a conversation on the WorldSeaFishing forum with the guy that posted this but the conversation didn't go anywhere and as Angular contact bearings have a significant cost compared to a thrust bearing solution I asked whether there was merit in this as an option
Admittedly, It is hard finding one that conforms to the imperial specs but why bother searching for a correct sized example if this solution has an inherent flaw I am ignorant to.
Still working on it... it takes time. I'm experimenting with an alternative bearing arrangement in the meantime. Results? Weell, some good, some not so good. As expected. Needs some fine tuning.
.
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 04, 2014, 08:10:48 PMAm I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?
As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.
Quote from: Keta on February 04, 2014, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 04, 2014, 08:10:48 PMAm I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?
As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.
Hi
Appreciate the response.
Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that.. I struggle with the written word and have many "filtering" issues when trying to communicate. If I do come off as disrespectful. Feel free to call me out on it either publicly or in PM and I will amend or explain what I tried to write better to get to the info meant and past any inadvertent insult.
I have asked questions in the General thread about the avets I own - which is why I have an interest in this.
Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?
I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution.
What would that be?
I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars
Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Also: I care about this mainly in the abstract. I do not intend to ever over tax the Avet in terms of drag. I have no need nor desire to do this.
If I apply any mods it will be for a higher tolerance to prevent failure, increase enjoyment and the longevity of the reel.
However, learning from you and the others here is reward in itself and I find your observations and experiences stimulating so many thanks
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 04, 2014, 10:15:43 PM
Quote from: Keta on February 04, 2014, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 04, 2014, 08:10:48 PMAm I to in infer this is the ONLY cure or solution as you have used "the" and not "a" or is it the best solution and that a thrust bearing is better than the current bearing by X%?
As far as I'm concerned it is, you could put a thrust bearing between the side plate and the spool shaft but that's a poor fix.
Hi
Appreciate the response.
Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that.. I struggle with the written word and have many "filtering" issues when trying to communicate. If I do come off as disrespectful. Feel free to call me out on it either publicly or in PM and I will amend or explain what I tried to write better to get to the info meant and past any inadvertent insult.
I have asked questions in the General thread about the avets I own - which is why I have an interest in this.
Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?
I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution.
What would that be?
I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars
Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?
I look forward to your thoughts.
Also: I care about this mainly in the abstract. I do not intend to ever over tax the Avet in terms of drag. I have no need nor desire to do this.
If I apply any mods it will be for a higher tolerance to prevent failure, increase enjoyment and the longevity of the reel.
However, learning from you and the others here is reward in itself and I find your observations and experiences stimulating so many thanks
Hey Jay,
So far so good as near as I can tell. Looks like you are just after info and are curious.
Anyways, few of us here are trained engineers and apply what we know from one area to this issue as best we can. My professional training is irrelevant but I did have a year of college physics that I apply to my understanding of these issues as well a as a background in consumer product development in a previous career and will try and explain as best I can.
There is no direct price to performance ratio to be found in any of these solutions. The cheapest (an oil injected bushing) would last the longest but would have the highest rolling resistance and when loaded axially would have higher friction so it wouldn't fish as well (handle would get stiff). The standard bearing would be reasonably cheap, would have the lowest rolling resistance, but starts to generate friction and damage as the axial load increases on the inner race and would have the shortest life. But it's relatively cheap too. The angular contact bearing is not maximized for rolling speed but handles axial load better and would generate far less friction from that as well but are hard to find and usually prohibitively expensive.
So each has it own caveats and performance characteristics and each has it's roll/role (pun intended) in the mechanical world but they are designed for specific individual tasks but we are asking them to do two. The standard Avet pinion bearing is asked to do things two things: to support the spool shaft and to support axial loads as you crank down on the Lever Drag but the bearing is really only designed to support the spool shaft. Avet apparently believes that if their reel is fished within it's limits that their choice is the sweet spot for price/performance and customer happiness. You will wear them out but get a good value for your dollar between replacements and some never have to replace theirs as they don't push them as hard.
There is no free lunch and they are aware of what you gain with their reel (light weight) over more robust designs. Their engineers probably know more about this issue than anyone we know and certainly more than I ever will. They simply cannot solve this issue without increasing the cost or size/weight of their reels and pass that cost to you.
ie some companies use larger pinion bearings as a "work around" for this issue but this necessitates a completely different rt. side plate receptacle for the bearing that increases the cost and weight of the machined rt side plate. You can also engineer solutions on the left side and again, this increases the weight/thickness of the left side plate. There is no free lunch....:)
You bought one of the best values and lightest weight lever drag reels made in the world. They are slim and light for a reason....Unfortunately, it cannot do everything and has limits.
If you found an angular contact bearing you could easily pay 10-20 times what a standard abec 5 quality bearing costs. It would last far longer with perfect maintenance or could be destroyed the first trip if you didn't pack it with marine grease and it got salt inside. This also has probably gone into Avet's thinking...you can imagine the customer service nightmare when someone wrecks it with salt the first weekend and is then told that it will be $125 for the bearing and $25 for labor...And there are probably a lot of people that would say you would have to be crazy to stick a $125 bearing in a saltwater fishing reel. :D
best
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 04, 2014, 10:15:43 PM
Please note: If my choice of words or phrasing is offensive , Please try to look past that..
No problem
Where you clarify you post and say that the use of a thrust bearing is a poor fix.
Could you explain that a little more please?A angular contact bearing is designed for this application, a thrust bearing/radial load bearing combination is a "patch" and it will put the thrust load on a thin spot on the side plate.
I assume that there is an inherent issue with the Thrust bearing as a cheaper alternative to the Angular Bearing solution. Yup, it's a cost issue.
I wonder if it could be quantified like this:
If a deep groove bearing (status quo) @ 1 - 20 dollars approx. depending on quality Choosing a midway 10 dollar option for the following.
Angular bearing @ ~120 dollars
Thrust bearing @~30 dollars
I don't understand the question but Avet sells their bearings for around $5.00 each. If they ordered angular contact bearings in volume they should be considerably cheeper than $120.
Is the angular bearing 12 times better than the existing solution?
Is the Angular bearing 4 times better than the thrust bearing solution
Is the thrust bearing 3 times better than the existing bearing?
Angular contact bearings will cure the cracking pinion bearing problem, at some point the side load will start to load up the handle no mater what bearings are used.
Cheers for that
Mainly I saw "There is no free lunch" and I couldn't agree more.
Just so I am clear.
Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?
Or is this incorrect
Edit for slow JPG
Cheers Keta
I was trying to work out the relative cost to performance differences tween the three bearing solutions
You both have answered me so I get it better.
Thanks for your time.
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 05, 2014, 01:23:48 AM
Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?
Yes.
If angular contact bearings are used they need to be flanged so they can not be installed backwards.
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 05, 2014, 01:23:48 AM
Cheers for that
Mainly I saw "There is no free lunch" and I couldn't agree more.
Just so I am clear.
Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?
Or is this incorrect
This is partly correct. It is not so much the lip on the race per se in a true angular contact bearing. The true problem when you displace the inner race is that the interior cage that is holding the balls gets moved in such a way that load is not properly distributed and the balls get crunched over time.
Ideally the bearings support all of the load rather than just the races only as you then have the best reduction in friction, I believe. If the load is being held on the outer race and not born by the balls then it is functioning as a bushing as far as the axial load is concerned. Not bad, just not as free spinning as if the balls were doing it. A true angular contact bearing bears axial load as well or better than normal loads, as I understand them.
As I understand it, Angular Contact Bearings are so much more expensive due to the more complicated design/materials of the inner races and the tolerances required. This, and the relatively low numbers that are made as they are highly specialized in application (ie rarely required). Mass quantity is the name of the game to lower prices. Whenever I have looked it is remarkable how few choices and vendors there are for them let alone any availability for the size you would like.
Most wheel bearings are angular contact bearings, they are very common.
I did a full mod of my Makaira 50 with angular contact bearings last March.
My handle bind is practically at zero with drag up at 70lbs.
Each SKF bearing cost me only around $10-15. I even sent a set to Alan in hopes that he would slap them into his Mak50 and post some numbers!
Angular contact bearings are VERY common. Metric ones with inner ring diameters (bore) of 5mm or larger are VERY easy to get. Since most of the world metricated 50 years+ ago, Inch ones are slightly more difficult to get.
Thrust bearing + radial bearing has a major shortcoming. To avoid binding the radial bearing, the thrust bearing would need to push up against only the outside ring of the radial bearing. This in turn creates the same axial load that we're looking to decrease. I'm still thinking about a configuration that would work.
Another solution I've thought of is to use tapered roller bearings. However, I had an extremely difficult time sourcing these with bores of less than 15mm. Tapered roller bearings are EXTREMELY common in cars.
Link to my mod page
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6771.0
Some pics
(http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/jameschan190/P1000418-600_zps751ed5f9.jpg)
(http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/jameschan190/P1000431-600_zpsdd756c0f.jpg)
(http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/P1000567-2.jpg.html)
Thanks for that and thanks to Keta too.
I guess my understanding was that it is the issue of the sizes (Imperial) and small sizes required (tiny inner diameter) rather than them being some kind of rare fish altogether but did not make that clear in my post.
Your post linked above details the problems I was referring to re: lack of availability and cost and minimums required for many reels with odd ball sizes.
"Of these 3, only angular contact bearings are available off-the-shelf with inner diameters (ie bore) of less than 15mm. The world has “metricated” (ie moved to the metric system), so it’s very difficult and expensive to find inch/imperial bearings. I haven’t been able to find inch angular contact bearings for my EXW50 so I’ve put that project on ice.
For small R4-sized bearings (0.25x0.625x0.196 inch) used in the small Avet SX, MX and JX’s, angular contact bearings are either way too expensive at $125+ or need to be custom made at quantities over 500 pieces. If I can get 100 people to commit to purchasing 2 pieces each, then I’ll commit the capital and take inventory risk. From my chats with a few bearing manufacturers, the best choice for our application would actually be tapered roller bearings, but they are much more difficult (ie expensive) to produce in small sizes."
best regards
ps en regards to the bearings you found for the Makaira what is the ball material (chrome steel?) and is there an "abec" rating? Thx!
Small angular contact bearings are hard to find, limitdown found one that worked for his reel.
I found the same as John. Very expensive and at that price, it's not even stainless steel.
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 05, 2014, 04:20:51 PM
I found the same as John. Very expensive and at that price, it's not even stainless steel.
I really don't want to rain on anyone's success and I think we could (with our obsessive maintenance) keep a chrome steel bearing alive for quite a while.
The average guy would take it off the store shelf, take it on one boat ride, never catch a thing on it, put it away and come back in a year to find the bearing pitted or frozen. :( This is how I would look at it if I were in the reel business: "you cannot sell the average consumer on having to crack his reel and pack his bearings as a requirement for the success of your business model/market acceptance of your finished product". It's really something only us crazies do :D.
When I do a search for a 7x19x6 pinion bearing to replace with an angular contact one I get either a 100% ceramic one from Boca ($119), a Chrome Steel one from VXB ($12) and zero returns for a Stainless Steel ABEC 5 rated Angular Contact bearing. This is a very brief search but in a nutshell is the scope of the problem as I understand it.
best regards
Today I too installed a angular contact bearing in my Avet SX. After greasing and installation I found the same as Vadein did in the other thread which is not much if any reduction in the handle binding at higher drag pressures. The bearing cost $15 and a distributor of the New Hampshire Ball Bearing company is only around 5 miles from my house, so I thought I would give it a shot. Will it last longer, who knows? As I stated before I don't over fish my reels and have not ever gone through a pinion bearing in my Avets. I thought maybe I could squeak out a few more pounds of drag so I could bump the reels up in line class. Well, without and noticeable reductuon in the binding issue I think I will keep them in the line class before the bearing change.
EDIT:The new bearing is stainless steel
Funny; i've been emailing back and forth with those people all day. Small world.
QuoteA angular contact bearing is designed for this application, a thrust bearing/radial load bearing combination is a "patch" and it will put the thrust load on a thin spot on the side plate.
May i disagree, Keta? Or maybe I'm not entirely clear on what you mean...
A thrust bearing, named for what it does best, is wholly suitable for taking the thrust load imposed upon bearings in lever drag reels. It doesn't put the load on a thin spot on the sideplate; it distributes it even better than what does a comparable radial bearing having only a relatively thin edge does. Unless you mean the balls themselves, in which case a thrust bearing with ground races does very well, as opposed to a thrust bearing with flat washers.
It does not however support radial loads, and falls short of suitability for reels for that reason. However, it could be used in combination with a radial bearing: the thrust bearing takes the thrust, and the radial bearing the radial load. Which happens to be the arrangement I am currently experimenting with (for educational purposes only, or while i await a reliable supplier of AC bearings) in the Avet MXL, mentioned briefly earlier in the thread. It also happens to be not entirely dissimilar from the arrangement coincidentally shown today here on the forum being used in a Penn Fathom.
QuoteThrust bearing + radial bearing has a major shortcoming. To avoid binding the radial bearing, the thrust bearing would need to push up against only the outside ring of the radial bearing. This in turn creates the same axial load that we're looking to decrease. I'm still thinking about a configuration that would work.
Ain't nuthin' to it... just provide some relief to the back side of the thrust bearing's washer.
Quote
If angular contact bearings are used they need to be flanged so they can not be installed backwards.
There is some merit to that. Otherwise, it is in fact only 50/50 odds of getting it right.
Quoteyou cannot sell the average consumer on having to crack his reel and pack his bearings as a requirement for the success of your business model/market acceptance of your finished product
Yes, that too. The truth is, that a vast majority of fishermen don't hang out at forums like this, even if many do.
.
Where are you planning on placing the thrust bearing, most likely on the end of the spool shaft where the side load will be on a thin spot of the side plate. This might cause problems. In my experiance thrust loading is controled with angular contact bearings in the majority of applications.
I updated my post in the general thread as I have discovered my MXL pinion bearing is the cause of the drag difference between the mxl and lx I own.
I will need to replace the pinion bearing soon and have asked how cheap I can go on that bearing given it's known failure rate.
A 1 dollar bearing seems more attractive than a 20 dollar one if its going to go south reasonably quickly.
So will be following this thread with more than the usual interest.
QuoteThrust bearing + radial bearing has a major shortcoming. To avoid binding the radial bearing, the thrust bearing would need to push up against only the outside ring of the radial bearing. This in turn creates the same axial load that we're looking to decrease. I'm still thinking about a configuration that would work.
QuoteAin't nuthin' to it... just provide some relief to the back side of the thrust bearing's washer.
ah, you're right. A relief spot. Same arrangement as my Mak50's thrust bearing and right spool bearing. In the Mak's right spool arrangement, the axial load put onto the thrust bearing is fully transferred to the spool. The radial bearing sits in a deeper recess and doesn't come into contact with the thrust bearing. This way the radial bearing purely handles radial load and the thrust bearing purely handles axial load.
An arrangement of radial + thrust bearing would be a great solution if there is enough space.
Quoteyou cannot sell the average consumer on having to crack his reel and pack his bearings as a requirement for the success of your business model/market acceptance of your finished product
Agree. The bearings would need to be 440C stainless and not the regular 52100 bearing steel
Quoteps en regards to the bearings you found for the Makaira what is the ball material (chrome steel?) and is there an "abec" rating? Thx!
The SKF's are Abec7, but the material is 52100 bearing steel. This is ok for my own personal use as I fully grease up with Yamalube. However, if I were selling these bearings, I would definitely get full 440C stainless
Quote from: SoCalAngler on February 06, 2014, 12:58:47 AM
Today I too installed a angular contact bearing in my Avet SX. After greasing and installation I found the same as Vadein did in the other thread which is not much if any reduction in the handle binding at higher drag pressures. The bearing cost $15 and a distributor of the New Hampshire Ball Bearing company is only around 5 miles from my house, so I thought I would give it a shot. Will it last longer, who knows? As I stated before I don't over fish my reels and have not ever gone through a pinion bearing in my Avets. I thought maybe I could squeak out a few more pounds of drag so I could bump the reels up in line class. Well, without and noticeable reductuon in the binding issue I think I will keep them in the line class before the bearing change.
EDIT:The new bearing is stainless steel
NHBB has two different R4 sized angular contact bearings. The one with the bigger 3/8 inch balls has more than 2.5x the load rating versus the one with 1/4 inch balls. This is yet another instance in life where having bigger balls is better!
In the pic below, the column we're concerned with is static load. Take 1/4 of that to get approximate max axial load.
One potential cause of the non-improvement in handle binding is that the inner ring might be rubbing against the right side plate. When axial load is placed on the inner ring, it will move ever so slightly to the right. Some reels actually have a recessed spot in the bearing cup already because radial bearings' inner rings will also move to the right slightly. I actually had this rubbing problem with a smaller reel in which I slapped some A/C bearings.
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/pork190/r4comparison-1.png) (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/r4comparison-1.png.html)
Quote from: jaypeegee on February 05, 2014, 01:23:48 AM
Cheers for that
Just so I am clear.
Axial load = sideways pressure caused by the inner race moving towards the handle as drag is increased?
This is bad as it moves the inner race out of it's original position causing pressure on the balls which transfer this to the outer race and in the process some sort of degradation occurs.
An angular bearing reduces this due to the "lip" on the race?
As JohnTuttle stated. A true angular contact bearing is more complicated than just having a lip on the outer ring.
The race of the outer ring is angled very precisely. The most common angles are 15 and 25 degrees. There are even AC bearings with 30, 35 and 40 degree angles . The higher the contact angle, the higher the max axial load, but max speed is reduced. Speed rating is never a problem for our uses. For an R4 AC bearing at 30 degrees, you're probably looking at a max RPM of like 30,000+, which is 500 revs per second. A typical Abec5 R4 radial bearing is rated at around 45,000 RPM with oil lubricant and 38,000 RPM with grease lubricant.
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g387/pork190/AC-race.png) (http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/pork190/media/AC-race.png.html)
Worth adding to this discussion is a look at Penn's solution to this dilemma.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/1506d502-2cc0-4e43-9857-4f6813395a0d_zps54602bfe.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/1506d502-2cc0-4e43-9857-4f6813395a0d_zps54602bfe.jpg.html)
The full post on the Torque LD 2-Speed is here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9685.0
And I hope to add some comments from Penn after a confirming email about these design issues.
Partly I point our community to the Torque design for them to also see the "complete" package that is required to address these issues. The Penn design requires more space for both the thrust bearing and for the larger pinion bearing than Avet uses.
This means that Avet provides the benefit of lower cost and lighter weight.
This means that a Torque is a tougher and heavier reel at a higher cost.
There is no free lunch! :D
best regards