Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Newell Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: Newell Nut on May 03, 2014, 10:50:01 AM



Title: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 03, 2014, 10:50:01 AM
Most of you know that early Newells had very nice 4 stack drag systems with a full size drag washer under the gear. I guess it cost too much and was later discontinued. Occasionally you can buy a set on ebay for $100 where someone has stripped a reel to sell parts.
I have found a very good way to make my own which essentially duplicates the Newell system. I first tried this last year and the prototype has been fished hard since last summer and still works fine.
Remove the gear sleeve and thoroughly clean the area on the top side of the sprocket. Rough it up with a dremel. I then take one of Bryan's .5mm SS eared washers for a 300 size and grind off the ears. Then I cut radial lines to adhere to the adhesive. I use Acraglass Gel that is used to bed rifle actions.

Place the adhesive on the roughed area of the sprocket. Place the washer on top and squeeze it down. Don't worry about what oozes out into the sprocket. Just clean most of it off with a small screw driver or toothpick. After about 6 hours you can cut away excess with an exacto knife. Let set up over night and install in the reel.

I use a 300 size .5mm CF under all of my gears with this set up so a 5 stack 300 is a 6 stack. My 600s become 8 stacks.

(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a526/dwebb49/IMG_0120_zps06a2b023.jpg) (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dwebb49/media/IMG_0120_zps06a2b023.jpg.html)
(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a526/dwebb49/IMG_0121_zps59662ece.jpg) (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dwebb49/media/IMG_0121_zps59662ece.jpg.html)
(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a526/dwebb49/IMG_0122_zps641c8819.jpg) (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dwebb49/media/IMG_0122_zps641c8819.jpg.html)


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: bluefish69 on May 03, 2014, 01:19:58 PM
What do you do for he indent in the bottom of the gear?

Mike


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 03, 2014, 01:29:27 PM
Good question Mike. I don't have to do anything. The thin SS washer and the thin CF are the same thickness as the normal thrust washer.
The WHY??
I noticed when I first started installing the 5 stack kits that the original Newell 4 stack was smoother than a Newell 3 stack with a 5+1 upgrade.
I think it is smoother because my CF has a smooth washer underneath and a smooth gear surface on top.
On the standard set up the CF sits on the sprocket which has edges that can catch the CF and this is also a smaller CF and a smaller surface in contact with the gear.

SO, I have managed to copy the original system without machining a recess in the gear. My first one has held up very well and it has been fished hard since last year. I just finished the cleanup of 7 of them that I put together today and by tomorrow they will be very solid and ready for a reel.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: maxpowers on May 03, 2014, 01:53:35 PM
i supposed we can applied this same technique to the penns


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: alantani on May 03, 2014, 01:56:30 PM
bryan and i were talking about that last night.  i thought that you could cut the flat sides of the gear sleeve all the way to the base, then use a keyed metal washer right above the star.  seems like that would be alot easier.  i've seen newell gear sleeves that were made like that.  it's a very slick idea.  the reason it work is that there is enough "grab" surface on the newell and penn gears.  we could actually do this for penn gear sleeves as well.  it would be a nice upgrade.  you would just need a thin metal washer and a thin carbon fiber drag washer to fit underneath the main gear.  



Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Frank on May 03, 2014, 02:18:26 PM
Just like Bastos's Tritons:

Basto, that's a great drag set up. A removable keyed washer to support the drag washer under the gear. The washer does not have to be pressed to the sleeve and it can be removed for cleaning and greasing to prevent corrosion issues. Very sharp!!!


(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/IMG_0512_zps78ee7f26.jpg)Shimano did the same thing with their Triton Mark1 in 1982
(http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/george8322/tritonmark1drag_zpsd869e071.jpg)
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Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 03, 2014, 02:27:07 PM
Alan,
You have a good idea and easier than mine if you get the sleeves made. Of course for now I will stick with my method which works.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 04, 2014, 04:17:26 AM
Four 300s or 400s, 2 500s and 1 600 ready for action. ;)

(http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a526/dwebb49/IMG_0125_zps1472feb1.jpg) (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dwebb49/media/IMG_0125_zps1472feb1.jpg.html)


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Alto Mare on May 04, 2014, 04:43:55 AM
Nice Dwight! Try to control yourself, one at a time  ::) ;D


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 04, 2014, 06:59:37 AM
It was raining too much to go fishing so decided to not waste the teaspoon of adhesive that I mixed up. All my spare sleeves are done so I have to install them so that I have something else to tinker with. I have the REEL HEAD DISEASE :-\ ;D


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Bryan Young on May 07, 2014, 09:50:19 AM
I'm talking with a machine shop to provide these in stainless like the original Newell 4-stack gear sleeves.

Alan and I are also talking about making them available for AT's Penn Gear Sleeves as well.

Stay tuned folks.



Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Frank on May 07, 2014, 11:16:32 AM
Count me in, Bryan!!!


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Frank on May 07, 2014, 12:42:49 PM
Bryan, If you and Alan need any help with funding this project or would like me to send you some Newell parts for duplication please let me know.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: alantani on May 07, 2014, 01:11:05 PM
bryan and i have been discussing all the manufacturing problems we have been encountering.  the problem is always finding someone local.  small local shops in the silicon valley are just not interested in our work.  the time delays are too great and the prices are too high.   we are running out of domestic options.   :-\


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Bryan Young on May 07, 2014, 01:22:09 PM
Bryan, If you and Alan need any help with funding this project or would like me to send you some Newell parts for duplication please let me know.
Thanks Frank.  Let's find out what the damage will be first. 

regarding the gear sleeves, I raided Alan's spare parts bin  ;D and have a gear sleeve for the 200-300-400 series, 500 series, and 600 series.  I also have a couple of older SS Newell Gear Sleeves for the 4 stack from a 300 series Newell I can use to explain what I want.



Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: maxpowers on May 07, 2014, 01:25:02 PM
Re: doing this for Penn sleeve

Have anyone tried this with a used brass sleeve, ie. dremeling the shoulder to the ratchet?  I am just wondering how much of a tolerance we can have if we decided to dremel the SS sleeve.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Alto Mare on May 10, 2014, 04:00:07 AM
Not taking anything away from you guys, It's always nice to see improvements, that's what we do here ;D. For me this idea doesn't make much sense, the main gear and its drag stack should be as one unit on its own, in another word, you want the main gear to spin as smooth as possible with pressure or without, this will give you smoother drags.
I'm thinking a bearing material for under the gear and you guys are talking drag material to create more friction :-\. I tried a flat roller bearing it works but the thickness is just too much, a Delrin washer would be a very good choice there, its very slippery and almost indestructible.
Just my two cents.
Sal


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on May 10, 2014, 04:12:11 PM
Sal
Your experiences have done wonders for this board and you opinion is always welcome. Since I tried duplicating the old Newell 4 stack with a drag washer under the gear I got the smoothest drags. Most of my reels actually have a 6 stack system and the 600 series has a 8 stack system and they really work great.
I would not change a thing on the 6/0s that you built. They are silky smooth just as they are.
This Newell Nut likes tinkering with the Newells and I think I have gotten just about all I can get and now I have some very special SS gear sleeves to test next week end in my 600 thanks to Tom.
They sure look sweet in the photos.

Dwight


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Alto Mare on May 10, 2014, 04:32:45 PM
Don't ever stop tinkering Dwight ;).
Yes I had the opportunity to check some of Tom's sleeves out, those are the best I've ever seen.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: mrpee on October 10, 2015, 07:12:54 AM
So is the P440 F the same fear as the G 440 F only deeper?


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on October 10, 2015, 02:17:32 PM
The gears are the same depth.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: mrpee on October 13, 2015, 08:10:13 AM
I guess what I ment to ask can I use it in the g440 f to get another washer?


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: Newell Nut on October 13, 2015, 01:22:00 PM
No, the old original P series that has a 4 stack drag will have a recess cut in the bottom of the gear for the extra washer. There is a press fit SS washer between the gear and dog sprocket.

The entire P series bridge with all the parts can be used in a G series. Just trying to use the gear will not help you. What you can do to the G is use Bryan's 5 stack drag system and they are very strong and smooth.

You can use the 5 stack system in a 4 stack P and get a 6 stack arrangement.


Title: Re: 4 stack drags
Post by: ez2cdave on February 21, 2016, 06:40:36 PM
Schematic for the 4-Stack . . . Tight Lines !!!