If it doesn't offend any convention folks, may I post a link to a thread on another site concerning my success at replenishing the magnetic fluid?
let me know, thanks.
anything that is fishing related is fine.
I have been working on this Mugseal problem for a while and I am now rather chuffed to say the least! I have developed a process and substitute product to replace the offending oil. I have temporarily named this much sought after fluid "Unobtainoil" in honour of, to distinguish it from, and to avoid confusion with, the original manufacturer's "forbidden to us mere mortals" product. I have tried to obtain the genuine product from Daiwa service and they will not sell to anyone, repairers included, so I have taken the time to research and develop an alternative product and technique which I believe is equally robust. It is early days, but initial testing (as much as I can do including heat/cold/waterproofing) looks pretty damn promising. I have cleaned, repaired and upgraded a large number of spinning and baitcaster reels over the years, but have until recently avoided the later Daiwa reels due to the difficulty of dealing with the magnetic fluid seals. Recently I decided to bite the bullet and bought off ebay a used '10 Certate 2506.It came without an exploded diagram and parts list so I proceeded to carefully deconstruct it for a full clean and service (I have since found a schematic online; ain't it always the way ). Upon removing the rotor nut and rotor I discovered that the fluid seal was gone, with only a few smudges on the magnet plate, AR sleeve and bearing; and some reddish, muddy debris. Apparently as the surfactant in the mixture ages this can happen as the particles clump together. I cannot tell whether it dried up or maybe washed out or dried by water or a solvent, but there was no liquid portion left to form a seal. A lot of pulling apart and reassembling of the rotor/AR bearing parts led to a few observations:The AR bearing sleeve (the inside part that the pinion shaft runs through) is the inner surface, the bearing retainer plate you can see contains the magnet on the inside circumference. On the first photo you can see the remains of the fluid on the green AR bearing outer.It was during this breakdown that revealed the first difficulty with this reel. To actually inspect the seal you need to lift the rotor because the bottom of the rotor has only a poofteenth clearance from the top of the bearing plate. This is all fine and good as dirt etc cant get in, but there is a snag! The chrome bearing sleeve that you can see actually locates around a flange on the bottom of the rotor with a light grip such that when you remove the rotor the AR sleeve comes out with the rotor and destroys the fluid seal. Additionally, if you try to return the AR sleeve back through the bearing plate it drags magnetic fluid into the AR pawls with it. I don't know whether this is a common trait or just unique to this model reel, I suspect I will need to service several different models of Magseal reels to find out. Alan Hawk did not mention it in his review of the '10 Saltiga. At present I haven't devised a way to stop the rotor dragging out the AR sleeve, so to reassemble you need to wash all fluid out, lube the sleeve and place in the AR bearing, replace the bearing plate and then replenish the magnetic fluid seal. AFAIK at the moment that is the only way to get the fluid to stay where it should, but I will ponder some more and may need to work on a few different models to nut it out.
Okay,I suspect this is the part you have all been waiting for:and a picture is worth a thousand words, so........Here is my first attempt at replenishing the fluid. I actually overdid it a bit and have since refined it and use less fluid. It didn't seem to matter as the stuff seems to coalesce no matter what, but I decided to lose some to avoid the chance of splatter.Folks, please allow me to introduce Unobtainoil in it's first service.
I was sitting back the other day playing with the '10 Certate and had one of those "you eeediiot" moments . As noted I was having trouble removing the rotor without disturbing the magseal. It suddenly dawned on me that all I needed to do was apply a little back pressure against the antireverse and it locks the AR sleeve in the bearing and stops the rotor from pulling the sleeve out while you gently rock the rotor off the pinion shaft. Amazing what a glass of scotch can do to enhance one's cognitive powers. Oh, and the Unobtainoil is still right where it should be!
I have also done another 10 Certate and a Caldia which was only three months out of the shop (purchased new by the shop manager straight off the shelf) and it had the same dried up mud, but not to the same extent, only traces and the seal was still largely intact. The Caldia gets fished hard so should be a reasonable test.
Congrats ReelClean.
I have also looked for a solution to this problem but failed to find a viable substitute.
I hope your solution proves to be a winner.
Something I mentioned to the Daiwa techs was that a more powerful magnet could be used to extract the old stuff when changing the ferrofluid during a service.
Have not tried this myself though.
~
How has it been holding up? Where can I get some of that Unobtainoil ;D ? I have a few non-US Daiwa reels that I'm not sure if Daiwa USA will service and I need to find a solution to replenishing the magnetic fluid.
Sorry Ladd, been a bit distracted of late.
I have recently spoken to the owner of the test reel and plan to get it back soonish to check on the Magseal.
I can't see why Daiwa USA would not replenish the seal for you, it is not reel specific and Daiwa Oz quoted about $10-15 just to replenish. You only have to reintroduce the oil into the seal gap and Robert is your father's brother!
Try them on and let me know how you get on.
cheers
Steve
There has been a lot bandied about the web about Daiwa Magseal. Many (myself included) have avoided buying the reels due to the perceived difficulty of replenishing the magseal oil. I have been working on a substitute (which I somewhat cheekily named "Unobtainoil" in recognition of it's predecessor) for some time now, having been refused supply many times by Daiwa.
Responses on other fora have ranged the whole gamut from disparaging to encouraging, but finally
the process is revealed.
Excuse the shaky hands, it ain't easy for blind old b@st@rds to do fine work working remotely off a handycam screen
Note how the old oil is GONESKI!!!
http://youtu.be/LJqQU2zxnls
Right, that's the hard part.
Points to note:
1) The method to remove the rotor without pulling out the ARB sleeve, just put back pressure against the Antireverse and hopefully the rotor comes off without the sleeve attached. As you can see sometimes they need careful manipulation. Once you get the magnet plate loose, it requires a bit of VERY careful work to get the sleeve and magnet plate out as a unit. If you bump it against the shaft or anything and it dislodges from the position just proud of the mag plate then it smears all the mag oil down the sleeve outer and it's all over, you can never collect it up for reuse because it has residual magnetism and will stick to everything else. If that happens (or should I say when, I am just starting to get comfortable with it) then you can only clean up the lot, put it back together and replenish in situ. Do not try to replenish first then refit, it just doesn't work. (Guess how I came to know all this???) If you have managed to remove it as a unit be careful how you put it down.
2) The real fun starts when you go to replace it. The best method I have devised is to take your tweezers and lock them pressing OUTWARDS on the INSIDE of the sleeve/plate assy, then slide it over the pinion and down into the ARB. You MUST have all the motive force on the sleeve, not the plate, otherwise the sleeve will hang up in the ARB on the way in and the plate/magnet will continue downward and smear all the oil down the sleeve. In the event of that happening, buy some Unobtainoil, clean it all up, and return to step one. (Guess how I came to know all this???) OR, send it to Daiwa.
3) As noted, the easiest way is to start with everything cleaned up and put back together. All you have to do then is reintroduce the oil back into the gap and watch the magic happen. Some things to note: this stuff is as thin as and seems to have a mind of it's own. You cannot just tip it in because once the magnet gets a hold of start of the drop it just pulls the whole lot in and keeps emptying the tube. (Guess how I came to know all this???) Don't tip it in from above or you will not stop the flow, I have found the best way is to keep the tube just below horizontal and squeeze gently so that when the gap is full you just release your grip and the oil breaks the magnetic bond with itself and runs back into the tube.
So there it is......
I have not done 5 years of rigorous testing on Unobtainoil, but it now seems satisfactorily installed under the rotor of my two '10 Certates, replacing the genuine oil which patently had disintegrated completely. From personal experience to date working on magseal reels, I don't see that the genuine stuff is demonstrably any more robust than Obtainoil, but I guess time will tell!
cheers
Steve
Very interesting. There are many waiting for the long term results of your "Unobtainoil". Wish you the best of luck.
Any updates ?
Reelclean supplied me with some of his sourced magseal fluid for a Daiwa Dogfight 7000.
The reel was not running on very well after spinning the crank and taking your hand off the ball.
Turned out the original fluid had gone "tacky", but not disappeared.
Cleaned all the old fluid off the rotor seal, then refilled as per instructions from posts here and viewing the YouTube clip.
Reel now runs smoothly, and owner is happy.
Thanks for the prompt supply of the fluid Reelclean. It certainly looks, and acts the part.
Will revert down the track if/when I get the reel back again and comment on durability.
I serviced 2 Daiwa Ballistic reels today with the pinion mag seal. I was able to carefully lift the top cover including the roller clutch sleeve without disturbing anything. I just lifted all of it as a unit and put it in a safe place.
It went back together easy after having the pinion gear, clutch sleeve, and cover lined up for a drop in fit. At no time did the clutch sleeve and the top retainer loose their fit. No oil was disturbed.
You just need patience.
Hi guys,
Any update on the unobtainoil ? How is it holding compared to magseal oil
Perhaps Rothmar2 can chime in, his customers seem to give their Saltigas a good workout?
I haven't had one back or in for service since I posted, so I can't give you any updates. Have any of you guys in the US hit up Daiwa over there for some magseal oil now that is allegedly available for sale?
Have done a couple of Certates as well as the Dogfights as posted earlier. I keep in regular contact with one of the Certate owners, and so far so good. The dogfights wouldn't have been used much since service, our season will fire up soon though. Will give further feedback around June next year on the Dogfights.
Any updates on Mag Oil or its substitute?
Thinking about buying a mag-sealed Certate and its really annoying that Daiwa does not sell this oil >:(
Davidka
PM inbound.
cheers
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for helping out!
Cheers,
D
What was the solution?
guess this the stuff they use.
https://ferrofluid.ferrotec.com/products/ferrofluid/vfFerrofluid
I ordered one small 10ml bottle (EUR 9.50) from a German company and waiting for first inquiry to service one of the new reels....
Let you know if it works.
Wolli
Thanks to Reel Speed I ordered the oil from Southwest Speakers. It's used in high end speakers and it does work with the spinning reels.
Quote from: handi2 on January 27, 2016, 12:07:51 AM
Thanks to Reel Speed I ordered the oil from Southwest Speakers. It's used in high end speakers and it does work with the spinning reels.
Hi,
Does the ferrofluid from Southwest Speakers comes with MSDS? Any info on the "recipe" will be very useful.
Thanks!
Look on the Ferrotec site,
APG L series high colloidal synthetic ester base oil.
900uL (ie <1mL) of oil will do a bunch of reels.
Anything you buy off ebuy or other places may be hydrocarbon or even water based; be very careful if it is cheap! Someone from Asia was selling a 10ml or so bottle for about 10bux but was a bit cagey as to what the base oil was.
cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on January 27, 2016, 05:44:06 AM
Look on the Ferrotec site,
APG L series high colloidal synthetic ester base oil.
900uL (ie <1mL) of oil will do a bunch of reels.
Anything you buy off ebuy or other places may be hydrocarbon or even water based; be very careful if it is cheap! Someone from Asia was selling a 10ml or so bottle for about 10bux but was a bit cagey as to what the base oil was.
cheers
Steve
Thanks Steve. Precious info! :)
I found a few more sellers on ebay. I'm inquiring regarding base oil of this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231159543052?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D231159543052%26_rdc%3D1).
Also found a few from Australian dealer, APG L11 (https://ferrofluid.ferrotec.com/products/ferrofluid/audio/apgL) and APG WO5 (https://ferrofluid.ferrotec.com/products/ferrofluid/audio/apgW), same base oil but different magnetization and viscosity. May be more viscous WO5 will be preferable?
hello boys and girls my first post here! are hydrocarbon based ferro fluids good for magseal service ?
Quote from: redhead on January 27, 2016, 08:48:39 PM
hello boys and girls my first post here! are hydrocarbon based ferro fluids good for magseal service ?
IMHO, no.
Hydrocarbon oils may evaporate faster over time, usually don't handle moisture well.
The oil I have recommended is synthetic base, high colloidal (ie sticks to itself, therefore holds in the gap better, less fling out on rotation), and has moderate moisture resistance. I don't believe you should go too high on viscosity as the seal may well "tear apart" rather than hold in the gap (hence high colloidal). However, I am not a fluid dynamics engineer! I would not use it unless the supplier can supply a tech data sheet and MSDS so I know what is in it. Remember also that the active component is ferric oxide (basically RUST!) that is only kept in check by a coating on the particles to stop them clumping together and forming a large rusty mass!
cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on January 27, 2016, 09:36:52 PM
I don't believe you should go too high on viscosity as the seal may well "tear apart" rather than hold in the gap (hence high colloidal). However, I am not a fluid dynamics engineer!
Perfectly makes sense, thanks Steve.
BTW base oil of ferrofluid from ebay seller I posted before is unknown, unfortunately.
Thanks for all this info guys. Any news on how this substitute is holding up to the test of time compared to the original stuff?
Hi guys , I know its a much asked question , but with a little time having passed , any updates ?
Im keen to get the "good oil" so to speak because as time goes by im having to say no to more and more customers when it comes to Daiwa .
Cheers Al
All I can tell you is the reels with the pinion mag seal does not work. I've had too many in the shop replacing roller clutches and pinion bearings because of rust.
The ones serviced that aren't rusted get oiled agin. The ones repaired get oiled again. They haven't been back yet. The owners may have sold them.
Blimey , so are you thinking magseal is looking like a gimmick ?
Still like to get hold of some fluid here in Aus , anyone got any leads on that ?
Cheers Al
Quote from: swoffer on April 25, 2016, 11:43:06 PM
Blimey , so are you thinking magseal is looking like a gimmick ?
Still like to get hold of some fluid here in Aus , anyone got any leads on that ?
Cheers Al
Drop me a PM and I will see what I can do.
Personally I have never serviced one myself although I would enjoy exploring this new technology. So what I am offering here is just second hand information:
Alan Hawke has followed several generations of this tech now. Earlier ones seemed to have problems with seepage and contamination. Although he personally does not think this tech belongs in a fishing reel, his most recent review on the Daiwa Expedition would indicate that they have now got the technology sorted and it performs as it should.
A bloke who runs a Coastal Fishing Camp here reports that he has been running Mag Seal Certates for over four years now without being serviced in that time and they still perform like new. I find this ver impressive given the use (and abuse) they would see in a professional operation.
I advised him that it would be wise to get an "oil change" soon since exposure to contaminants would cause the ferrofluid to degrade over time.
I have recently bought a couple of mag seal reels myself so one day I will get around to tinkering with them.
Hopes this helps.
~
Quote from: swoffer on April 25, 2016, 11:43:06 PM
Blimey , so are you thinking magseal is looking like a gimmick ?
Still like to get hold of some fluid here in Aus , anyone got any leads on that ?
Cheers Al
Give Daiwa Australia a ring, I have been informed they will sell you some of theirs (I won't need to buy any for a long time). Be prepared for sticker shock though. I haven't been able to find any sort of satisfactory oil for under about $20 per ml, and Daiwa heardsay is $100 for 5ml.
Anecdotally it appears that the oil in '10 Certates was pretty short lived, but '13 on seems to hold up better.
Cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on April 26, 2016, 10:14:21 AM
Give Daiwa Australia a ring, I have been informed they will sell you some of theirs
Cheers
Steve
Nup , been pestering them for ages , as recently as today I'm informed that under no circumstances will they supply it to anyone :-\
Here is the SCHEMATIC for that DAIWA CERTATE 2506 reel . . . ( Attached )
Tight Lines !
Quote from: swoffer on October 18, 2016, 02:10:38 PM
Quote from: ReelClean on April 26, 2016, 10:14:21 AM
Give Daiwa Australia a ring, I have been informed they will sell you some of theirs
Cheers
Steve
Nup , been pestering them for ages , as recently as today I'm informed that under no circumstances will they supply it to anyone :-\
Rumour has it that the service dept is "under new management".
Quote from: ReelClean on October 19, 2016, 07:36:23 AMRumour has it that the service dept is "under new management".
That is almost never a good thing, whether in Australia or the USA . . .
Tight Lines !
We have been discussing the magseal situation here . . .
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=19286.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=19286.0)
Tight Lines !
One of the members here has been exchanging PMs with me. He contacted Ferrotec and received this info which he is happy to share.
I got a reply from Ferrotec Industries USA:
Their chemists seem to think there would be no reason why the APG L11 class ferrofluid wouldnt work to lubricate magnetic ball bearings.
They did mention they produce a class of ferrofluid especially for this which is very similar almost identical in makeup and ingredients to the APG L11 fluid.
I wonder if theyre referring to the fluid they manufacture for Daiwa?
The APG L11 fluid is the one I selected for Unobtainoil to replace Magseal oil, it seems it may also be satisfactory for lubing the mag bearing.
cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on October 19, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
One of the members here has been exchanging PMs with me. He contacted Ferrotec and received this info which he is happy to share.
I got a reply from Ferrotec Industries USA:
Their chemists seem to think there would be no reason why the APG L11 class ferrofluid wouldnt work to lubricate magnetic ball bearings.
They did mention they produce a class of ferrofluid especially for this which is very similar almost identical in makeup and ingredients to the APG L11 fluid.
I wonder if theyre referring to the fluid they manufacture for Daiwa?
The APG L11 fluid is the one I selected for Unobtainoil to replace Magseal oil, it seems it may also be satisfactory for lubing the mag bearing.
cheers
Steve
Thanks for the good news mate. Jon is going to try some out in bearings so this looks promising.
~
Quote from: ReelClean on October 19, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
One of the members here has been exchanging PMs with me. He contacted Ferrotec and received this info which he is happy to share.
I got a reply from Ferrotec Industries USA:
Their chemists seem to think there would be no reason why the APG L11 class ferrofluid wouldnt work to lubricate magnetic ball bearings.
They did mention they produce a class of ferrofluid especially for this which is very similar almost identical in makeup and ingredients to the APG L11 fluid.
I wonder if theyre referring to the fluid they manufacture for Daiwa?
The APG L11 fluid is the one I selected for Unobtainoil to replace Magseal oil, it seems it may also be satisfactory for lubing the mag bearing.
cheers
Steve
I have a Certate13 which has developed noicy lineroller. I have already purchased Magseal oil from a Korean ebay shop, and I'm going to have to service that noicy lineroller but I have no idea how to refill it's Magseal. Have you ever done it? The main Magseal in the reels body seems quite easy to refill since parts are not too small, but in lineroller they seem to be really small and therefore I have not deared to even dismantle it yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlOp5CbA6mw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlOp5CbA6mw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYgakH4LZ30 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYgakH4LZ30)
I have a Certate13 which has developed noicy lineroller. I have already purchased Magseal oil from a Korean ebay shop, and I'm going to have to service that noicy lineroller but I have no idea how to refill it's Magseal. Have you ever done it? The main Magseal in the reels body seems quite easy to refill since parts are not too small, but in lineroller they seem to be really small and therefore I have not deared to even dismantle it yet.
[/quote]
Firstly, you might want to check the specs of the oil, many are hydrocarbon or water based (esp from Asia ebay). Hydrocarbon usually evaporates faster and water based, well... you can work it out :(
The 13 Tate LRB is simply a standard SS bearing packed with grease that is sandwiched between a plastic outer case and a couple of magnetic packing washers. Flush and grease pack the bearing, then assemble the stack and finally reintroduce the magoil to the gap. You can see the stack here:
If it is already noisy you may have to replace the brg.
cheers
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj4XJZN_Kjo
Thank you Steve, that video is going to be very useful. I ordered MF oil from the Reelshop of Korea which has been discussed earlier in this forum. I service my reels once a year, and fish them only in fresh or brackish ( Baltic Sea) so it is not necessary for the oil to last several years, one season is enough for me. By the way, is there any new information about this oil, is it hydrocarbon or synthetic oil based. Or is there a simple way to test it myself?
Mika
Quote from: MJensen on October 23, 2016, 07:08:04 AM
Thank you Steve, that video is going to be very useful. I ordered MF oil from the Reelshop of Korea which has been discussed earlier in this forum. I service my reels once a year, and fish them only in fresh or brackish ( Baltic Sea) so it is not necessary for the oil to last several years, one season is enough for me. By the way, is there any new information about this oil, is it hydrocarbon or synthetic oil based. Or is there a simple way to test it myself?
Mika
From the retailer answering my query:
Thank you for your contact us.
It is magnetic synthetic oil.
It is very special oil.
Thank you.
cheers
Steve
The Ferrofluid works fine. The little disposable plastic container is enough for many reels but it goes bad quickly. I haven't used any this year so I haven't tried a way to save it.
Quote from: handi2 on December 03, 2016, 01:12:08 AM
The Ferrofluid works fine. The little disposable plastic container is enough for many reels but it goes bad quickly. I haven't used any this year so I haven't tried a way to save it.
What do you mean by "it goes bad" ?
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 03, 2016, 02:33:01 AM
Quote from: handi2 on December 03, 2016, 01:12:08 AM
The Ferrofluid works fine. The little disposable plastic container is enough for many reels but it goes bad quickly. I haven't used any this year so I haven't tried a way to save it.
What do you mean by "it goes bad" ?
X2?
I seal it up upright in a small placcy bag and it seems to last forever. This is the Ferrotec fluid you are using?
x3
As Reelclean has said, keep it in an airtight container, and it seems to last fine. I got some off Steve a few years ago, and it is still the same consistency as when I first purchased it.
https://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-900ul-general-purpose-for-4-diameter-vc--340-546 (https://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-900ul-general-purpose-for-4-diameter-vc--340-546)
(https://www.parts-express.com/data/default/images/catalog/240/340-546_HR_0.jpg)
MSDS ATTACHED . . .
Tight Lines !
The genuine stuff comes in large bottles.
Daiwa techs say shelf life is ~ 2 years. Then it can become "gluggy" so they thin it out with solvent.
~
Quote from: exp2000 on December 05, 2016, 02:35:22 PM
The genuine stuff comes in large bottles.
Daiwa techs say shelf life is ~ 2 years. Then it can become "gluggy" so they thin it out with solvent.
~
If the stuff becomes "gluggy" after only 2years on the shelf, with it just sitting there. How long before it gets "gluggy" when it's actually being used in a reel? The more I hear about the stuff, the more I am disliking it.
Quote from: exp2000 on December 05, 2016, 02:35:22 PM
The genuine stuff comes in large bottles.
Daiwa techs say shelf life is ~ 2 years. Then it can become "gluggy" so they thin it out with solvent.
~
Hmm . . . Where was that photo taken ? Looks like a "tackle store" in the background to me.
Did they mention the type of "solvent" they used ?
Tight Lines !
Quote from: mley1 on December 05, 2016, 04:09:35 PM
Quote from: exp2000 on December 05, 2016, 02:35:22 PM
The genuine stuff comes in large bottles.
Daiwa techs say shelf life is ~ 2 years. Then it can become "gluggy" so they thin it out with solvent.
~
If the stuff becomes "gluggy" after only 2years on the shelf, with it just sitting there. How long before it gets "gluggy" when it's actually being used in a reel? The more I hear about the stuff, the more I am disliking it.
Good point, especially if they move away from the "Mag Seal" technology in the future.
Tight Lines !
Quote
Did they mention the type of "solvent" they used ?
Tight Lines !
I recall that it was nothing special, just generic cleaning solvent that they use in-house so I did not bother to note specifics.
~
Quote
If the stuff becomes "gluggy" after only 2years on the shelf, with it just sitting there. How long before it gets "gluggy" when it's actually being used in a reel? The more I hear about the stuff, the more I am disliking it.
Good point, especially if they move away from the "Mag Seal" technology in the future.
Currently they are expanding the use of ferrofluid technology in their reel range so I do not see this happening soon. If it ever does happen, it will be dictated by market acceptance and consequent sales figures.
I really think that they should make it available for general purchase, but it may be the case that Daiwa is bound by contract to the Ferrotec Corporation who manufacture the stuff so they may not have a choice in the matter.
At least we have a promising alternative thanks to the endeavors of Steve (ReelClean)
~
Quote from: exp2000 on December 05, 2016, 02:35:22 PM
The genuine stuff comes in large bottles.
Daiwa techs say shelf life is ~ 2 years. Then it can become "gluggy" so they thin it out with solvent.
~
That sounds like the typical behavior of a hydrocarbon based oil ???
Quote from: exp2000 on December 05, 2016, 05:37:14 PM
Quote
If the stuff becomes "gluggy" after only 2years on the shelf, with it just sitting there. How long before it gets "gluggy" when it's actually being used in a reel? The more I hear about the stuff, the more I am disliking it.
Good point, especially if they move away from the "Mag Seal" technology in the future.
Currently they are expanding the use of ferrofluid technology in their reel range so I do not see this happening soon. If it ever does happen, it will be dictated by market acceptance and consequent sales figures.
I really think that they should make it available for general purchase, but it may be the case that Daiwa is bound by contract to the Ferrotec Corporation who manufacture the stuff so they may not have a choice in the matter.
At least we have a promising alternative thanks to the endeavors of Steve (ReelClean)
~
...and then Ferrotec let the cat out of the bag and admit it is very like APG-L11 :)
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
This link is in German . . . Amazon.
https://www.amazon.de/Ferrofluid-beste-Qualit%C3%A4t-fl%C3%BCssiges-Unterricht/dp/B00FVZHR3C (https://www.amazon.de/Ferrofluid-beste-Qualit%C3%A4t-fl%C3%BCssiges-Unterricht/dp/B00FVZHR3C)
One of the COMMENTS on that page talks about DAIWA and, when translated, reads . . .
"Hello, this ferrofluid can be used as sealant in the new Daiwa spin rolls with "mag sealed" technology. I have used it myself with my daiwa certate and and Luvias. Both roles I have several months in salt water on sea trout fished and the ferrofluid seals wonderful and it does not come to corrosion or similar. I can recommend the item 100% for the Daiwarollen. So you can wait for your own roles. Therefore 5 * for the ferrofluid."
Tight Lines !
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 06, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
So I looked at that....and it is ~$9 for 650 **micro liters** before shipping....and not at all certain that the speaker stuff is good to use on spinning parts (ie seal rotor to pinion assembly...) despite what some reviewer is saying....
That comes out to $450 per ounce....but you probably would save on shipping!
:D
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 07, 2016, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 06, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
So I looked at that....and it is ~$9 for 650 **micro liters** before shipping....and not at all certain that the speaker stuff is good to use on spinning parts (ie seal rotor to pinion assembly...) despite what some reviewer is saying....
That comes out to $450 per ounce....but you probably would save on shipping!
:D
Hi John,
That 650uL will service the pinion seals on about 15-20 2000size reels, you don't need to buy this stuff by the drum! Seeing as you can't get the "real thing" from Daiwa the Ferrotec stuff is actually priceless :D
"The speaker stuff" is exactly what we are all using for the pinion seal, and I am still waiting for someone to pipe up and say it has failed.
cheers
Steve
I havent had the mag-oil in my posetion long enough to experience it 'going bad'. I transfer it from its little sealed plastic tubes into a small sealed glass vile so there is very little oxygen in the vile for it to possibly oxidize.
If it was to change its viscosity and go gluggy, not sure thinning it with a solvent would be a good idea(?). Wouldnt the solvent eventually flash-off/evaporate over a short period of time leaving the fluid in its original composition (gluggy)?
If the fluid is thickening over time that would almost confirm the carrier oil is hydrocarbon based. Synthetic ester/diester based carrier oils do degrade due to oxidation but only over prolonged periods.
I inspected a Morethan Branzino a few weeks back that was bought a couple of years ago new and had done little work (hadnt been submerged or had water splashed on it). The ARB seal was starting to dry up, I also inspected the line roller seal and the intergrated bearings and they were in a similar state. I flushed and replenished with fresh fluid.
I think that once Daiwas ferrofluid has left the bottle and been applied and exposed to a greater atmosphere it starts to oxidize and breakdown.
This corresponds with scenarios of dried up, rusty coloured clumpy residue people have been experiencing with Daiwa mag-oil seals.
Heres a few facts regarding the degradation of ferrofluid that may be of interest....
The degradation of ferrofluid is determined by several factors. One is having magnetic stability under high magnetic field gradients (this isnt much of a factor for our application of 'seals' in fishing reels but more so in the likes of commercial vaccuum feedthru seals which employ high magnetic field gradients to maintain a seal). The high magnetic field gradients tend to cause the magnetic particles to agglomerate and aggregate resulting in seperation of the magnetic particles from the carrier liquid.
The main reasons for degradation of ferrofluid in our application is the chemical stability relating to the oxidation of the saline-based surface modifying agent. This is used to treat the 'naked' magnetic particles and acts as a non-dispersant in order for the particles to accept several layers of surfactant (usually a fatty-acid such as Oleic Acid). Once the surface modifying agent oxidizes the whole system falls apart.
All carrier oils undergo an oxidation process over the course of time, although synthetic ester based carrier oils can be formulated to be resilient to oxidation for very long periods of time. They can also be formulated for resilience to hydrolisis and still maintain excellent lubrication properties.
Quote from: ReelClean on December 07, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 07, 2016, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 06, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
So I looked at that....and it is ~$9 for 650 **micro liters** before shipping....and not at all certain that the speaker stuff is good to use on spinning parts (ie seal rotor to pinion assembly...) despite what some reviewer is saying....
That comes out to $450 per ounce....but you probably would save on shipping!
:D
Hi John,
That 650uL will service the pinion seals on about 15-20 2000size reels, you don't need to buy this stuff by the drum! Seeing as you can't get the "real thing" from Daiwa the Ferrotec stuff is actually priceless :D
"The speaker stuff" is exactly what we are all using for the pinion seal, and I am still waiting for someone to pipe up and say it has failed.
cheers
Steve
I would be more interested in how much to service a 5000 and 6500 sized reel...?
The early mag-sealed Daiwas have had plenty of trouble with the oil staying where it should and (as above) drying out on unsuspecting fishos leading to corrosion trouble. Since then their fluid seems to have gotten better, which is why I am cautious about using speaker oil, it may not be the ideal spec for the SW environment and fishing reels.
I, of course, have no actual negative experience as yet.
There are several grades of Ferrotec ferrofluids available for speakers John, the grade ReelClean has chosen seems to be very similar in its chemical composition to Daiwas proprietry mag-oil (I spoke to Ferrotec regarding this).
The fluid ReelClean has been using contains a high quality synthetic-ester based carrier oil and seems to contain a suitable amount/ratio of magnetite particles (and size of particles) to maintain a seal and lubricate/seal mag bearings.
Thats basically all that is required
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 08, 2016, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: ReelClean on December 07, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 07, 2016, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 06, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
So I looked at that....and it is ~$9 for 650 **micro liters** before shipping....and not at all certain that the speaker stuff is good to use on spinning parts (ie seal rotor to pinion assembly...) despite what some reviewer is saying....
That comes out to $450 per ounce....but you probably would save on shipping!
:D
Hi John,
That 650uL will service the pinion seals on about 15-20 2000size reels, you don't need to buy this stuff by the drum! Seeing as you can't get the "real thing" from Daiwa the Ferrotec stuff is actually priceless :D
"The speaker stuff" is exactly what we are all using for the pinion seal, and I am still waiting for someone to pipe up and say it has failed.
cheers
Steve
I would be more interested in how much to service a 5000 and 6500 sized reel...?
The early mag-sealed Daiwas have had plenty of trouble with the oil staying where it should and (as above) drying out on unsuspecting fishos leading to corrosion trouble. Since then their fluid seems to have gotten better, which is why I am cautious about using speaker oil, it may not be the ideal spec for the SW environment and fishing reels.
I, of course, have no actual negative experience as yet.
ATM this is the best product/info we have, from page 3 of this thread:
"I got a reply from Ferrotec Industries USA:
Their chemists seem to think there would be no reason why the APG L11 class ferrofluid wouldnt work to lubricate magnetic ball bearings.
They did mention they produce a class of ferrofluid especially for this which is very similar almost identical in makeup and ingredients to the APG L11 fluid.
I wonder if theyre referring to the fluid they manufacture for Daiwa?
The APG L11 fluid is the one I selected for Unobtainoil to replace Magseal oil, it seems it may also be satisfactory for lubing the mag bearing."
Unless someone else finds something more suitable, this is the only game in town ???
I would guess that you should get at least 5+ services from 650uL. When a single SS bearing costs you $10, it ain't that bad?
Tell you what, if someone wants to rid themselves of their troublesome high-end Daiwa's, I can offer them a token rebate to accept them for recycling ;D
cheers
Steve
Quote from: farnorthlbg on December 08, 2016, 01:35:11 AM
Heres a few facts regarding the degradation of ferrofluid that may be of interest....
The degradation of ferrofluid is determined by several factors. One is having magnetic stability under high magnetic field gradients (this isnt much of a factor for our application of 'seals' in fishing reels but more so in the likes of commercial vaccuum feedthru seals which employ high magnetic field gradients to maintain a seal). The high magnetic field gradients tend to cause the magnetic particles to agglomerate and aggregate resulting in seperation of the magnetic particles from the carrier liquid.
The main reasons for degradation of ferrofluid in our application is the chemical stability relating to the oxidation of the saline-based surface modifying agent. This is used to treat the 'naked' magnetic particles and acts as a non-dispersant in order for the particles to accept several layers of surfactant (usually a fatty-acid such as Oleic Acid). Once the surface modifying agent oxidizes the whole system falls apart.
All carrier oils undergo an oxidation process over the course of time, although synthetic ester based carrier oils can be formulated to be resilient to oxidation for very long periods of time. They can also be formulated for resilience to hydrolisis and still maintain excellent lubrication properties.
Yep, I considered all that when I selected APG-L11 for Unobtainoil.......
.
.
.
No, seriously, I really did! ;) ::) ;D
Hello I'm from Slovenia ;D and we don't have daiwa "services" and i wanted to ask you if you can confirm my teories. I read the whole tread and if i understand well must be ferrofluid on magnetic synthetic base and not on hydrcarbon based oil right? :-[ Because hydrocarbon based evaporates faster. So i found that link on page 3: http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544
Is that sythentic base right.
And i found one from germany: https://www.amazon.de/Ferrofluid-beste-Qualität-flüssiges-Unterricht/dp/B00FVZHR3C
I sent an email to the seller and they confirmed that is "light hydrocarbon base oil :'(
You understand correctly, synthetic base oil is recommended (ie the first one you mention.).
cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on January 03, 2017, 11:14:18 AM
You understand correctly, synthetic base oil is recommended (ie the first one you mention.).
cheers
Steve
Ok thank you now i just need to find the cheapest product+spedition costs to my country :'(
WOW I thought I was concerned about mag servicing, some of you guys are next level.
Good onya for not putting up with the ridiculous situation Diawa have created.
I have three mag sealed Saltigas all bought last year and am dreading putting them in for servicing.
Anyone in NZ got access to viable alternative ?
Cheers Pete
Quote from: PE Pete on May 31, 2017, 09:10:20 AM
WOW I thought I was concerned about mag servicing, some of you guys are next level.
Good onya for not putting up with the ridiculous situation Diawa have created.
I have three mag sealed Saltigas all bought last year and am dreading putting them in for servicing.
Anyone in NZ got access to viable alternative ?
Cheers Pete
Steve (ReelClean) in Brisbane can help you out. He has bulk stock of his unobtainoil.
In your neighborhood, farnorthlbg was chasing some a while back so you could give him a try.
~
Quote from: alantani on August 31, 2014, 05:29:15 AM
anything that is fishing related is fine.
"Anything" . . . ?
LOL !
Tight Lines !
(http://respectthefish.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/10-21-15-2-800x800.jpg)
At 2016 october, I serviced my luvias (2012) with ferrofluid (APGL11) I buy it form ebay (australia) that just fine until now. Just share the good news. The APG L11 works. Thanks
I've been using the Magron product from South Korea . Its effectively the same product that Daiwa use , out of the same factory , just branded differently .
It works just fine but its bloody expensive . At $60 (AU) for 0.5 ml :-\ , thats $120,000 per liter . Extortion .
It has been established that Globeride (Daiwa parent company) has a stake in Ferrotec:
https://www.breammaster.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=61253&page=2
so I suspect it is a Ferrotec product that Daiwa is using. Therefore by deduction the Korean fluid is more than likely Ferrotec fluid expensively repackaged!
I noticed this on Ebay (UK)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFH1-Ferrofluid-20-ml-with-nitrile-gloves-and-pipette/122340562790?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Much cheaper, but don't know about the quality/spec :-\
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on January 30, 2018, 12:55:59 PM
I noticed this on Ebay (UK)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFH1-Ferrofluid-20-ml-with-nitrile-gloves-and-pipette/122340562790?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Much cheaper, but don't know about the quality/spec :-\
I would have pretty much bet my left one that it was water based, made safe for the kiddies to play with. However the listing says "light" hydrocarbon, which I personally would avoid due evaporation.
cheers
Steve
Quote from: ReelClean on December 08, 2016, 02:25:41 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 08, 2016, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: ReelClean on December 07, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on December 07, 2016, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: ez2cdave on December 06, 2016, 04:53:08 AM
Found a good price . . .
http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544 (http://www.parts-express.com/ferrofluid-650ul-general-purpose-for-2-diameter-vc--340-544)
Tight Lines !
So I looked at that....and it is ~$9 for 650 **micro liters** before shipping....and not at all certain that the speaker stuff is good to use on spinning parts (ie seal rotor to pinion assembly...) despite what some reviewer is saying....
That comes out to $450 per ounce....but you probably would save on shipping!
:D
Hi John,
That 650uL will service the pinion seals on about 15-20 2000size reels, you don't need to buy this stuff by the drum! Seeing as you can't get the "real thing" from Daiwa the Ferrotec stuff is actually priceless :D
"The speaker stuff" is exactly what we are all using for the pinion seal, and I am still waiting for someone to pipe up and say it has failed.
cheers
Steve
I would be more interested in how much to service a 5000 and 6500 sized reel...?
The early mag-sealed Daiwas have had plenty of trouble with the oil staying where it should and (as above) drying out on unsuspecting fishos leading to corrosion trouble. Since then their fluid seems to have gotten better, which is why I am cautious about using speaker oil, it may not be the ideal spec for the SW environment and fishing reels.
I, of course, have no actual negative experience as yet.
ATM this is the best product/info we have, from page 3 of this thread:
"I got a reply from Ferrotec Industries USA:
Their chemists seem to think there would be no reason why the APG L11 class ferrofluid wouldnt work to lubricate magnetic ball bearings.
They did mention they produce a class of ferrofluid especially for this which is very similar almost identical in makeup and ingredients to the APG L11 fluid.
I wonder if theyre referring to the fluid they manufacture for Daiwa?
The APG L11 fluid is the one I selected for Unobtainoil to replace Magseal oil, it seems it may also be satisfactory for lubing the mag bearing."
Unless someone else finds something more suitable, this is the only game in town ???
I would guess that you should get at least 5+ services from 650uL. When a single SS bearing costs you $10, it ain't that bad?
Tell you what, if someone wants to rid themselves of their troublesome high-end Daiwa's, I can offer them a token rebate to accept them for recycling ;D
cheers
Steve
FWIW, I reached out to Ferrotec last year and got this reply when inquiring about Ferrofluid replacement for my Fuego LT:
"There are two different companies who supply to Daiwa. The ferrofluid supplied by Ferrotec is directly shipped to Daiwa from our manufacturing facility in Japan. I do not know which exact fluid that was being used in your model. By guessing, it could be APG E26. (APG E26 is synthetic hydrocarbon oil based. APG L11 is ester oil based. I would prefer APG E26.) I have heard positive feedback from others who had done retrofit with APG E26, but please be aware that there is no guarantee that APG E26 would work on yours."
I may see if I can order a sample. Foolishly, after tearing the reel down back then (and making a magseal oil mess before wiping it all away), I put it back together and continued fishing it...LOL. Just opened it back up a couple days ago and found that the magnet in the magseal plate is now deteriorating and has slightly corroded, rusted and swelled (I'm sure from the saltwater contact). The magseal plate replacement part (J68-8201) will run me around $17 after shipping so the whole thing will likely cost just over $30.
Sending it to Daiwa for repair would cost $30 minimum, and there's a chance they could bump that up depending on what they assess. They could determine that part J68-8201 is not in scope of their basic repair structure, and charge me $20 more and make it a $50 repair. Not sure I want to go that route, and they're unwilling to give quotes over email/phone without first seeing the reel :(
EDIT: Just saw what you wrote here
Quote from: ReelClean on January 31, 2018, 02:35:03 AM
However the listing says "light" hydrocarbon, which I personally would avoid due evaporation.\
The Ferrotec rep said "APG E26 is synthetic hydrocarbon oil based" so it sounds like his recommendation to use E26 maybe isn't so great? Since L11 seems to be the 'tried and true' here, it sounds like that's probably the way to go.
On that note: how have your guys' reels been holding up?
Update from the Ferrotec rep/tech:
"Both synthetic hydrocarbon oil and synthetic ester oil have a low evaporation rate (in terms of 10^‐7 g/cm2 sec at 175 deg C)"
Thoughts? Should I try the E26 out then?