first up, the gen II 6/0 gear sleeve kit, $40 with domestic shipping included.
here is the kit. it's a second generation 114/114h/115 gear sleeve with a thin metal washer, a thin carbon fiber washer, a stainless steel dog from keta, and a 2x8mm retaining pin. the gear sleeve is $30, the washer/dog kit is $7, and figure $3 for domestic shipping. for shipping overseas, figure $8 or something close.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_35_1185165.jpeg)
on the gen II gear sleeves, the flat faces are cut all the way down to the ratchet gear. there is still plenty of support for the main gear.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_36_118521935.jpeg)
now what we can do is add a thin metal washer. this will keep fuzz from the carbon fiber drag washers from getting into the teeth of the gear.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_38_118532265.jpeg)
this metal washer will also now fully support a super thin carbon fiber drag washer. both of these washers were designed and cut by bryan young.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_39_11854397.jpeg)
here's what the full assembly looks like with the main gear in place.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_40_11855267.jpeg)
normally, i would throw a #6-114 drag washer under the main gear. this has always worked fine, but i wanted to change things up a little. you can see the increase in surface area with the larger drag washer.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_43_118572445.jpeg)
*************************************************************************
next up is the 4/0 gen II gear sleeve kit. this fits the penn senator 113h and the 320 and 330 gt series reels, as well as some of the progears. it's $25 for the gen II gear sleeve, plus $7 for the washer/dog kit, and $3 for domestic shipping.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_25_118441877.jpeg)
just like the 6/0 gear sleeve, the 98-320 gen II has flat faces cut all the way down to the ratchet gear.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_28_118471484.jpeg)
the metal washer sits flush against the ratchet gear and provides cover for the stainless steel dog.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_29_11848867.jpeg)
bryan cut both washer from super thin material.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_32_118491418.jpeg)
now you have a full size, fully supported, greased carbon fiber drag washer under the main gear.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_33_118501625.jpeg)
you can see the difference in size between the standard carbon fiber drag washer and the gen II set up.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/11/1_08_02_15_6_02_41_118562336.jpeg)
if this looks familiar, it's because you've seen this system in newell reels. it was likely abandoned by carl newell because of the extra cost and because the improvement in drag performance was not that great, but we have the advantage of greased carbon fiber that carl newell did not have. honestly, though, if you compared reels with the original stock penn fiber washers, sal's delron washer, a greased smoothdrag carbontex carbon fiber washer or a gen II metal/carbon fiber washer system, i doubt that you would be able to tell much of a difference.
the reason i like this gen II system the best is because it gives you the maximum amount of drag surface area with a minimum investment. really, the only extra cost is a $2 metal washer. would i gut a reel that already had upgrades to go with a gen II system? no. but if you have a reel and are considering these upgrades anyway, you can go with a gen II system for really only an extra $2.
for the squidder, coarse thread jigmaster, and fine thread jigmaster gear sleeves, a complete gen II kit is not available. a coarse thread gear sleeve was cut, but not all the down to the base as needed. you will see gen II kits for smaller reels in future runs. for now, if you want to try a kit in a 4/0, 6/0 penn or 9/0 penn, send me a pm. thanks! alan
Very Nice Boss
Something to look forward too.
Mike
Sounds good, I'll take one for my 114h!
I love how it came out Alan. A lot of talking and discussions, and to see the pieces come together is amazing. Thank uou for fun of creating what was discovered by Carl Newell and apply it to Penn Reels. Can't want to try it out in my own reels.
When will the gen 2 sleeves be available for jigmasters, squidders, etc?????
A few week, months?
That is a really nice system there.
Alan,Bryan. I have first gen. 113h and 114h sleeves. Would I be able to file down the flats?? And if so are you carrying the washers(cf & SS) separately ??
You should be able to do this Bob but be careful. BTW, your new toys are on the way.
Quote from: jigmaster501 on February 15, 2015, 05:04:03 PM
When will the gen 2 sleeves be available for jigmasters, squidders, etc?????
I have 2 for the 500 now but there were minor issues with them. The "problem" was easily fixed but I'm not sure Alan is selling the first run. I put one in a 501 and the other in a 210.
Lee, as always your of great help. One of the reasons I like getting on here so much. Thanks buddy.
Bob
Hi Bob, It will be possible or you to file down the sides flat. All I can tell you is that I cannot do it very nicely. Unfortunatley, I don't have any of the thin carbon fiber washers. Alan has all of them for the 113H and 114H kits. Funny, now that I think of it, I didn't even make extra metal washers for myself, and I need to get it from him. lol
I'd better run off some extra washers for myself in the next order.
I hate when I don't have parts I make when I need them too.
Bryan, if you would make these washers available I would really appreciate it. Let me know, as I'm willing to chance fouling up a sleeve or two in order to have this set up. I've been gripping for years about the carbon fibers coming onto the sleeve teeth. This is the answer. Let me know.
Bob
Quote from: BMITCH on February 15, 2015, 05:29:40 PM
Alan,Bryan. I have first gen. 113h and 114h sleeves. Would I be able to file down the flats?? And if so are you carrying the washers(cf & SS) separately ??
Good question Bob,
I was thinking of using some of my knife sharpening stones (which I plane flat on a large diamond stone) to get this done.
Leo
PS. I too will need Bryan's parts to complete. Bryan, please make extra's for those of us who will attempt to modify the gen I parts.
i've used the the cutting wheel of a dremel and i think it is the best. if anyone wants to make the conversion from gen I to gen II, let me know and i can send out just the metal washers and thin carbon fiber washers. i also have stainless steel dogs.
Got my gen 2 kit in along with Bryan's 7+1 system. Alan and Bryan are modest men. On the other hand, 42.5lbs of drag on a 114HLW is not. Thanks guys!
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74759557/SOC%29AlanTani/114HLW/drag.JPG)
Nice! ;)
careful with the gears.....
Whoa, that is a lot of drag. Be careful. I'd hate for the reel to explode on you ore gears stripped.
Would this much drag be an issue with stainless gears,bridge & metal side plates?
My main concern is with the gears and plastic side plates. If the reel had metal sideplates, then failure would be with the gears.
By the way, I'm referring to brass or bronze main gears.
I doubt I'd ever fish it buttoned down that hard. 42.5lbs is half my listed line strength and almost half of its tested ABS. I can splice in replacement hollow core but I don't wanna pay to do it. I just wanted to see what Alan and Bryan's upgrades were capable of.
It does have stainless pro-challenger gears, stainless double dogs I got from Alan , stainless yoke from Scott's. Only parts I can think of that aren't stainless are the star itself and eccentric jack. Side plates are definitely a weakness. All that said, if I added accuplates do you guys think it could sustain 42.5lbs with the stainless gears and guts? Still doubt I'd ever use it, but nice to know I could if I needed to.
Well Cole,
Since you don't intend on fishing it with that kind of drag. Send it to me, and I will. ;)
That reel is top notch brother. Its a pleasure to see new members that can get it done! ;D
Increasing drag numbers does wonders to these reels.
A 114H stock is rated at 22lb, I'm sure when you hit its max numbers, the reel won't feel smooth.
Our custom 114H could be pushed to 50+, I mention it because its here for anyone to double check. These are only stress tests, our custom 114H will be as smooth as silk when fished at 30lb, this is one of the reason for the upgrades.
It is safe to say that we've been able to increase drag numbers on most reels from the Jigmaster to the 16/0 by 10lb, all stay smooth all the way, but you need to toss the carbon fiber for under the gear and use an Acetal washer there, adding another on top does even better.
30lb of drag will get you anything in the water.
Sal
Well said Sal! ;)
Preach on my Brother! ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 19, 2015, 11:11:10 AM
It is safe to say that we've been able to increase drag numbers on most reels from the Jigmaster to the 16/0 by 10lb...
Sal
Don't forget to include the Surfmasters like your lil 100 ;)
Quote from: DaBigOno on February 20, 2015, 01:40:13 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 19, 2015, 11:11:10 AM
It is safe to say that we've been able to increase drag numbers on most reels from the Jigmaster to the 16/0 by 10lb...
Sal
Don't forget to include the Surfmasters like your lil 100 ;)
Absolutely!
Not just the Surfmasters, the Beachmasters, the Baymasters and Monofil as well.
By the way, the numbers above are on the low side, but that should keep everyone happy. ;)
Question Guys,
What's the benefit of the flats going all the way down without the small shoulder at the bottom to support the main gear?
Leo
I think they did this Leo to run a thin ss washer in between the ratchet and the under gear washer to prevent it from shredding.
The purpose of cutting the flats all the way down is so that we and add another drag surface into the drag stack as once done by the great Carl Newell. Therefor, instead of having a 5 stack drag system, you would now have a true 6 stack drag system.
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 28, 2015, 10:07:37 PM
The purpose of cutting the flats all the way down is so that we and add another drag surface into the drag stack as once done by the great Carl Newell. Therefor, instead of having a 5 stack drag system, you would now have a true 6 stack drag system.
Thanx for your response Bryan,
I better understand it now for I overlooked the fact of the "KEYED" washer which is static/non free rotating and a friction surface under pressure of the star.
Thanx,
Leo
Very Ingenious Bryan! You knocked this one out of the park Buddy!
I'm thinking of putting a Delrin Washer on the SS Washer Not CF.
Mike
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 28, 2015, 10:07:37 PM
The purpose of cutting the flats all the way down is so that we and add another drag surface into the drag stack as once done by the great Carl Newell. Therefor, instead of having a 5 stack drag system, you would now have a true 6 stack drag system.
Carl was a genius, but I don't believe he did too good on that one, he probably would have changed it if he was still with us.
The washer under the gear should act as a bearing and not as an additional drag.
Sal
In the laws of physics, what does it matter is you create a drag surface above or below the gear?
First off, I'm not knocking your gear sleeve, I'm simply comparing a carbon fiber washer for under the gear with an Acetal washer. I have my personal tests and I'm definitely sure that the Acetal washer makes the reel much smoother without loosing drag numbers.
Quote from: Bryan Young on March 01, 2015, 01:47:08 AM
In the laws of physics, what does it matter is you create a drag surface above or below the gear?
It matters very much.
The carbon fiber washer when used under the gear interferes with the gear from doing its job on spinning as smooth as possible, weather under stress or not.
Sal
I'm gonna try to be the peacemaker and say that both systems have there applications. Personally I'm glad we have the choice.
Ron
What about an Acetal/Delrin top washer for smoothness and the keyed/carbon fiber under gear washer as a "COMBO"?
Leo
Quote from: LTM on March 01, 2015, 03:08:29 PM
What about an Acetal/Delrin top washer for smoothness and the keyed/carbon fiber under gear washer as a "COMBO"?
Leo
I have to say this, Im not sure the acetal washer ON TOP has much effect on smoothness.
Quote from: fIsHsTiiCkS on March 03, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
I have to say this, Im not sure the acetal washer ON TOP has much effect on smoothness.
What I see is the star turns easier.
Quote from: fIsHsTiiCkS on March 03, 2015, 03:26:10 PM
I have to say this, Im not sure the acetal washer ON TOP has much effect on smoothness.
I am. From my tests I noticed that the Acetal on top has just as much effect as the one at the bottom.
Sal
I have an original P322 4 stack with Bryan's 5 stack added to it and it is smooth as silk and I refuse to tamper with it. BUT on my 540 3.2 and my 631 3 workhorses I put the delrin under the gear and they got smoother and I did not lose any drag strength. I put Delrin on the top of the stack in my Conflict 8000 and it got smoother and that reel did some serious screaming on king macs in January. I will do more delrin when I get time to tinker. I am a believer in Delrin and thanks to Sal for sending me a sample to tinker with and I bought more and have shared with others. Will it work on your reel? I don't know but it works for me.
i had the idea of the 'full length flats' on the gear sleeve in my head for a while. glad to see they are now available for something. i have a couple well used brass gear sleeves for jigmaster that i think i want to take a stab at cutting the flats all the way down to the end. i have a drill press, some carbide bits and moveable vise to basically make it work like a mill. i think i will practice on my old haggered brass, and if it goes well enough, and ive had a few beers, ill try it on the SS sleeve.
i have a feeling i will run into an issue with the overall height of the stack contacting the side plate. if i remove the wavy washer from the top of the stack do you think it will fit? or will i need to remove material from the inside of the right side plate?
if you want some of the super thin metal and carbon fiber washers to play with, let me know.
Quote from: alantani on February 09, 2015, 02:12:59 AM
next up is the 4/0 gen II gear sleeve kit. this fits the penn senator 113h and the 320 and 330 gt series reels, as well as some of the progears. it's $25 for the gen II gear sleeve, plus $7 for the washer/dog kit, and $3 for domestic shipping.
would this upgrades be too much (or not needed) for a 320gti ?
do you guys think I can get a bit more drags and more important that more drag will be able to be used on the graphite body
or the 320gt is just good enough with new set of Ht-100 drags with cals grease?
Quote from: steelfish on May 19, 2015, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: alantani on February 09, 2015, 02:12:59 AM
next up is the 4/0 gen II gear sleeve kit. this fits the penn senator 113h and the 320 and 330 gt series reels, as well as some of the progears. it's $25 for the gen II gear sleeve, plus $7 for the washer/dog kit, and $3 for domestic shipping.
would this upgrades be too much (or not needed) for a 320gti ?
do you guys think I can get a bit more drags and more important that more drag will be able to be used on the graphite body
or the 320gt is just good enough with new set of Ht-100 drags with cals grease?
honestly, not needed. i'd put a carbontex drag under the main gear, grease all the washers with cal's grease and call it done. quick and simple.
Quote from: pyros46290 on March 30, 2015, 03:45:32 PM
i had the idea of the 'full length flats' on the gear sleeve in my head for a while. glad to see they are now available for something. i have a couple well used brass gear sleeves for jigmaster that i think i want to take a stab at cutting the flats all the way down to the end. i have a drill press, some carbide bits and moveable vise to basically make it work like a mill. i think i will practice on my old haggered brass, and if it goes well enough, and ive had a few beers, ill try it on the SS sleeve.
i have a feeling i will run into an issue with the overall height of the stack contacting the side plate. if i remove the wavy washer from the top of the stack do you think it will fit? or will i need to remove material from the inside of the right side plate?
A drill press wont have the spindle rigidity a milling machine would, but as long as you take light cuts it wont matter much. A cutting oil will help, just make sure the carbide is sharp. Stainless work hardens, so you want a shallow depth of cut, but dont baby it too much on the feed rate.
Quote from: alantani on May 20, 2015, 03:27:51 AM
Quote from: steelfish on May 19, 2015, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: alantani on February 09, 2015, 02:12:59 AM
next up is the 4/0 gen II gear sleeve kit. this fits the penn senator 113h and the 320 and 330 gt series reels, as well as some of the progears. it's $25 for the gen II gear sleeve, plus $7 for the washer/dog kit, and $3 for domestic shipping.
would this upgrades be too much (or not needed) for a 320gti ?
do you guys think I can get a bit more drags and more important that more drag will be able to be used on the graphite body
or the 320gt is just good enough with new set of Ht-100 drags with cals grease?
honestly, not needed. i'd put a carbontex drag under the main gear, grease all the washers with cal's grease and call it done. quick and simple.
Well thats the way it is right Now.. so I will call it done and Take another reel to upgrade, Thanks Alan
Are these metals available for Jigmasters yet?
yes, they are, in coarse thread only! i should have fine thread gear sleeves in a week. send a pm and i'll get one shipped out to you.
Thanks Alan! I should have been specific, I was referring to the STM (Super Thin Metal) washer. But they go together, and I was also wondering what to do about the SS sleeve since you seemed to be having trouble sourcing a supplier. Does this mean those troubles are over?
Quote from: alantani on June 30, 2015, 06:00:31 PM
yes, they are, in coarse thread only! i should have fine thread gear sleeves in a week. send a pm and i'll get one shipped out to you.
Do you have the second generation fine thread sleeves and what would they cost and are the any washers needed in addition to these needed. I was going to get Bryan's 5 stack drags for a 505, and have ss Newell gear.
Thanks,
Black Pearl has them and Bryan has the extra washer.
Thank you Mikeysm
Are the second generation gear sleeves compatible with the soon to be available 113H double dog plates?
not sure. there might be a change in the base. check with alan chui. he might also be offering these parts as a complete set.
any of these kits left for my 65 Alan?
got a bunch, but the washers under the gear will not work because of the smaller gear. send me a pm with your address and we'll figure out what will work.
Any Sleeves for a 12, 14, or 16's available?
Quote from: Sharkin904 on March 14, 2016, 05:48:00 PM
Any Sleeves for a 12, 14, or 16's available?
Tom has those in stainless.
He has his own spot here. Cortez Conversions.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13225.0
If you want just brass ones. I have some.
I'm going to try this under gear set on a project I'm starting. The way I'm seeing this...regardless of the fiber disc material(carbontex, delrin, or Penn's stock washer) having that keyed washer against the ratchet can be nothing but good. Any shredding of material is eliminated. 8)
Hi Alan I was wondering if I could get in on this an place an order for a 6/0 stainless steel sleeve. Hope im not too late!
Hi Jake, you are not too late. The problem is that we are waiting on parts from the machinist. We are small hobbiest compared to the large companies. We tend to take a back seat at times. Please be patient as we are. Thank you.
Thanks Bryan! I'm definitely willing to wait. As of right now is there an estimated time line?
Hey guys, I'm having a problem. I picked up one of these 2nd generation SS sleeves from Keith for my 115 I'm hotrodding for shark fishing Daron style. The pin won't advance all the way and is rubbing on the bridge post - it looks like the pin hole was drilled just a hair too high - I can look through it and see just a tiny bit of the bridge post - where it is rubbing on the pin. I thought I had remembered this as a problem for one of the sleeves, but I looked it up and it was one of the Jigmaster sleeves.
Anyone else run into this?
Sid
PM answered Sid.
Keith
Chuck the sleeve in a cordless drill with the clutch all the way down. Put the sleeve on the bridge with a small round file in the sleeve hole. Spin it around a few times then put the file into the other side and repeat.
Quote from: handi2 on July 17, 2016, 11:19:06 PM
PM answered Sid.
Keith
Chuck the sleeve in a cordless drill with the clutch all the way down. Put the sleeve on the bridge with a small round file in the sleeve hole. Spin it around a few times then put the file into the other side and repeat.
Problem solved by filing a small spot on the pin to accommodate that part of the post that wasn't clearing. I didn't have a round file small enough to fit in the pin hole, but I used a rat tail file to file a small crescent out of the pin. It's purring like a kitten again with its double dogs, Adam's drag insert and Dom-Tom frame. I've got an aluminum spool on it's way and it'll be done. Pics coming on another thread when I have it finished.
Sid
Quote from: handi2 on July 17, 2016, 11:19:06 PM
PM answered Sid.
Keith
Chuck the sleeve in a cordless drill with the clutch all the way down. Put the sleeve on the bridge with a small round file in the sleeve hole. Spin it around a few times then put the file into the other side and repeat.
Kieth... what size round file ?
Steve
I generally recommend filing flat about 60% of the retaining pin.
Filing the pin is better in case you ever change sleeves. The file I use is just a tapered round file. It's just a faster way of doing it.
I used this second generation sleeve with the steel/carbon fiber under gear set on my 309. I have the standard 3 stack inside the gear, so in essence, it's like the Newell four stack. This is an economical way to add a friction surface to your gear and pick up a few pounds of power, and this set up is smooth as Rico Suave. When you crank on that star and line is peeled off, and that gear spins on the sleeve, the steel washer on top of the ratchet provides a solid smooth bearing surface. The carbon fiber friction disc between that steel bearing and the gear is doing the same thing the ones inside the gear are doing. I think this is the cat's meow...I'd love to see this set up offered for the #5-60 gear. 8)
Hi...just wondering if the 4/0 kit is still available?
Yes, I'll get to your pm in just a bit! ;D
Hi Alan.. it's been a while. I had to come back to the mainland for some new titanium body parts I couldn't get done in Hawaii. Cheap Medicare!
Ah well, I need to ask for the low down on 349, Master Mariner, SS gear sleeve. A 113H gear sleeve and drill another pin hose is what I'm finding.
Do you have a better ides?
Do you think anybody has a 3-sevens drag insert laying around they'd part with?
Good to be back in So Cal. Good to be back on your site and getting my gear ready for the season. I will be buying some goodies from all of your people.
I thought that the standard 98-349 gear sleeve for the 113h would be fine. I'm not aware of a 7stack drag set for this reel, but i doubt that it would be needed.
Hope you have a quick recovery!!!!
Quote from: wothoyt on April 28, 2021, 12:55:15 AM
Hi Alan.. it's been a while. I had to come back to the mainland for some new titanium body parts I couldn't get done in Hawaii. Cheap Medicare!
Ah well, I need to ask for the low down on 349, Master Mariner, SS gear sleeve. A 113H gear sleeve and drill another pin hose is what I'm finding.
Do you have a better ides?
Do you think anybody has a 3-sevens drag insert laying around they'd part with?
Good to be back in So Cal. Good to be back on your site and getting my gear ready for the season. I will be buying some goodies from all of your people.
Hi Hoyt,
I wasn't aware you were in Hawaii and no longer in SoCal. Geez, Ti body parts? I hope they can fix you up as good as new. Take care and hope you can get back out on the water in short order.
Bryan