Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Senator Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: trond_solem on March 13, 2015, 04:42:24 AM



Title: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 13, 2015, 04:42:24 AM
I don't think I have seen this before.

High-speed gears for the 115 reel.

The opening in the side plate allows for a maximum diamteter of the main gear of 39.8mm.
Allowing for some clearance, it is possible to make a 3:1 gear set. The OD of the main gear is 39.4mm. That leaves just 0.2mm clearance around the gear, but that should be enough.

I won't make them, but if any of you wants to make this gear set, I can send you 3d models of them.
They can also be made for hex or multitooth drag washers. Changing the design to hex or multitooth is a small and quick mod to the models.



Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 13, 2015, 03:05:48 PM
A little bit more work and it is possible to take it to 3.3:1 gearing.

It will require the use of hard stainless steel like 15-5ph or 17-4ph.
With the correct heat treatment they are far stronger than 316 or any other common stainless steel.

The 3d models are still available for anyone who wants to make them.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 13, 2015, 03:19:00 PM
Be careful increasing the ratio on those, the larger the spool the harder to turn the handle. Increasing the diameter on a spool by just 1/2 inch makes a huge difference.
Take the 16/0 for instance, that reel has a 1.6:1 ratio, increasing it to 2.6:1, would make it very hard to turn the handle.
It is ok to increase the ratio on most, but can't over do it,  it could work against you.
The 6/0 and 9/0 share the same main gear, but the spool on the 6/0 is appro. 5/8" smaller in diameter.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 13, 2015, 10:40:15 PM
Be careful increasing the ratio on those, the larger the spool the harder to turn the handle. Increasing the diameter on a spool by just 1/2 inch makes a huge difference.
Take the 16/0 for instance, that reel has a 1.6:1 ratio, increasing it to 2.6:1, would make it very hard to turn the handle.
It is ok to increase the ratio on most, but can't over do it,  it could work against you.
The 6/0 and 9/0 share the same main gear, but the spool on the 6/0 is appro. 5/8" smaller in diameter.

That depends on how and what you fish.
If you just winch the fish in with the rod in a holder, by just turning the haandle, you will need a low ratio. If you use the rod to pump the fish in and use the handle to take up the "slack", you will need the speed of a higher ratio.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 14, 2015, 03:24:27 AM
Good luck Trond, I hope it works out for you.

Sal


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: marc77 on March 15, 2015, 06:38:41 AM


How about a lower gear ratio for the 114hlw and 115 Senators? 

I would be the first to purchase gears that would yield a 2:1 ratio for these reels.  And I would be willing to pay a high price for them.

The 114hlw has a 2.8 to 1 ratio.  The 115 has a 2.5 to 1.  Both reels have the same main gear.  The pinion gear on the 115 is larger (the same as the one used on the 114 black senator).  Both reels have 28" line recovery per handle turn.

When you start to get older, you realize that fighting a tuna, shark or swordfish with a gear ratio that is higher than 2 to 1 becomes hard work.  20" line recovery is perfect.  Not too slow and not too fast. 

The Senators are great reels.  However, except for the 114(black), the gear ratio is too high for fighting large fish using the rail.







Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 15, 2015, 07:34:41 AM


How about a lower gear ratio for the 114hlw and 115 Senators? 

I would be the first to purchase gears that would yield a 2:1 ratio for these reels.  And I would be willing to pay a high price for them.

The 114hlw has a 2.8 to 1 ratio.  The 115 has a 2.5 to 1.  Both reels have the same main gear.  The pinion gear on the 115 is larger (the same as the one used on the 114 black senator).  Both reels have 28" line recovery per handle turn.

When you start to get older, you realize that fighting a tuna, shark or swordfish with a gear ratio that is higher than 2 to 1 becomes hard work.  20" line recovery is perfect.  Not too slow and not too fast. 

The Senators are great reels.  However, except for the 114(black), the gear ratio is too high for fighting large fish using the rail.

It is possible to make lower ratio gears. How low I can get depends on the available space for the pinoin gear.
I think it is possible to fit a 21-tooth gear in there. A 43-tooth main gear will give you a 1:2.048 ratio.
If anyone wants to make and sell the gears, I can make the 3d models for them.



Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 15, 2015, 07:50:56 AM
If you're going that low, there is no need for the gears, acctually, there is no need for the rod and reel as well. Get yourself a nice pair of leather gloves and take it from there.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: foakes on March 15, 2015, 08:04:38 AM
If we look at the Internationals, Shimanos, Okumas, and Everols -- we see they offer 2-Speeds in their larger reels.

It gives the angler more than a chance -- to land large aggressive fighting fish on a regular basis -- it actually makes it possible.

In theory, a higher speed large Senator sounds good on paper.

But the likely practical reality -- is like driving a car.  You start out at the bottom of a long uphill stretch in high gear -- and at some point, far from the top -- the transmission will not allow the car to go forward any further without damage to the components.  

With a high geared large Senator -- I think the same thing would happen -- but it would be the angler, as well as the reel, that would poop out.  Of course, that is assuming one is targeting mostly large fish.  With small fish, there would not be much difference, most likely.

The way progress and innovation happens, is by folks like Trond coming up with ideas -- then tweaking the possibilities into other ideas.

Thanks for your clever ideas, Trond -- and please keep them coming.

Thomas Edison did not invent the light bulb on the first try -- there were hundreds of failed experiments before any success.  The main thing -- he did not give up.

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Keta on March 15, 2015, 08:06:16 AM
I have 2 two speed reels with 3.1:1/1:1, it's nice to have it that low when a large tuna is doing a death spiral 25'-100' below the boat.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 15, 2015, 08:35:18 AM
A single speed reel needs to be well balanced, that's why on the top of this thread I said that you need to be cautious on how high you go with the ratio on these Senators. To me the 3.25:1 on the 6/0 is one of the best upgrade and so is the 2.8:1 on the 9/0...very manageable.
Accurate was on top of their game, I'm sure they did lots of tests with those. They introduced the 3.25:1 and they make sense to me.
These are good for an average person, but I could see being a little harder fishing those for an older person, unless you're Dwight.
With no option of a second speed, The 1.2:1 on the 9/0 is just too low. Just my opinion.
Sal


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 15, 2015, 10:24:23 AM
A single speed reel needs to be well balanced, that's why on the top of this thread I said that you need to be cautious on how high you go with the ratio on these Senators. To me the 3.25:1 on the 6/0 is one of the best upgrade and so is the 2.8:1 on the 9/0...very manageable.
Accurate was on top of their game, I'm sure they did lots of tests with those. They introduced the 3.25:1 and they make sense to me.
These are good for an average person, but I could see being a little harder fishing those for an older person, unless you're Dwight.
With no option of a second speed, The 1.2:1 on the 9/0 is just too low. Just my opinion.
Sal

I agree, but what I wrote was a 2:1 (numbers the other way around) gearing ratio. It's still slow, but it is what the gentleman asked for.
That's one revolution on the handle is 2 revs on the spool.
If they ever will be produced is another question. Surely if there is enough demand, I will have the 2:1 gear kit made.

Otherwise, Black Pearl's 2.8:1gears (2.9:1 in reality?) is an excellent choice.
It is possible to go higher. Up to 3.3:1, but that may be a too high gearing ratio.



Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 15, 2015, 10:28:57 AM
If you're going that low, there is no need for the gears, acctually, there is no need for the rod and reel as well. Get yourself a nice pair of leather gloves and take it from there.

I don't think so.
How can the difference between a 2.5 gearing and a 2.0 gearing be so big that you can use your hands and just pull the line with the 2.0 gearing ratio?



Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 15, 2015, 10:35:15 AM
Sorry Trond, I thought you wrote 1.2:1, 2:1 make sense.



Thomas Edison did not invent the light bulb on the first try -- there were hundreds of failed experiments before any success.  The main thing -- he did not give up.

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred
This is funny to me ;D, not everything you read is accurate Fred, where I come from, they thought me Alessandro Volta invented the light bulb in the 1800's, not Thomas Edison.
This conversation came up over 40 years ago, when I got kicked out of the classroom here, when I argued with the teacher on the same subject.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: George4741 on March 15, 2015, 10:55:46 AM
Marc, instead of slowing down a 114HLW, have you considered getting a black 114, or do you need a larger spool for greater line capacity?   The 114 is a formidable reel in it's own right.  My Accurate frame, 7-drag stack 114 will easily pull over 30 lbs drag very smoothly.  At least it does testing on the bench; I haven't tested it on the water.  Or you can get a much longer handle arm for the 115 that will give you more leverage when cranking, as well as the giving the illusion of slowing down the retrieve ratio.
George

    


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: foakes on March 15, 2015, 11:09:22 AM
You are right about Volta and Edison, Sal!

Just like everyone thinks Christopher Columbus discovered North America --

Historical archeologists have proven that Mariners from Northern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean visited and set up outposts in some cases -- hundreds or thousands of years before Columbus.

The difference, like Edison -- is that Columbus marketed, implemented, and shared with others his plans and discoveries.  And he was able to seek out funding for his voyages from outside sources.  And he had a goal to continue on with his discoveries, and turn them into viable projects.

Anyway, that is off topic. 

I still think Italians are clever marketeers!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Alto Mare on March 15, 2015, 03:27:16 PM
Sorry we pulled away from the subject Trond, I and I'm sure many others here, have been enjoying your posts, thank you.
Maybe one day I'll be able to afford a trip to visit your beautiful place, if it happens I'll fill a bag with parts so you won't need to worry about shipping costs ;).
Sal


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: foakes on March 15, 2015, 03:32:35 PM
Good idea, Sal --

Actually, If there is anyone going over that way in the future? -- we should get a community package of Penn items together to give Trond.

Looks like a beautiful country.

Keep it in mind.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: trond_solem on March 15, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
Good idea, Sal --

Actually, If there is anyone going over that way in the future? -- we should get a community package of Penn items together to give Trond.

Looks like a beautiful country.

Keep it in mind.

Best,

Fred


For a community package of penn items, I would pay the shippping cost with a big smile on my face! :)


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: marc77 on March 15, 2015, 03:53:42 PM

Yes, I very much enjoy using the Senator 114 reels for offshore fishing.  I wanted to use the 114HLW  and 115 reels to get more line capacity without using braid backing.

I have many lever drag two speed reels.  They are great for trolling.  But I like using star drag reels for bait fishing.

I installed longer handles on my offshore star drag reels.  They certainly add more cranking power, but one can increase the handle length only so much before it becomes uncomfortable and awkward.

In response to Sal's remark regarding sportmanship, the ultimate is catching a 300 lbs swordfish on a hand line (yoyo).  Mano a mano, no rod, no reel.  There are many places in this world where that is done on a daily basis.  It works just fine.  They do it in Florida and it is lots of fun.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Tightlines666 on March 15, 2015, 05:00:13 PM


Yes, I very much enjoy using the Senator 114 reels for offshore fishing.  I wanted to use the 114HLW  and 115 reels to get more line capacity without using braid backing.

I have many lever drag two speed reels.  They are great for trolling.  But I like using star drag reels for bait fishing.

I installed longer handles on my offshore star drag reels.  They certainly add more cranking power, but one can increase the handle length only so much before it becomes uncomfortable and awkward.

In response to Sal's remark regarding sportmanship, the ultimate is catching a 300 lbs swordfish on a hand line (yoyo).  Mano a mano, no rod, no reel.  There are many places in this world where that is done on a daily basis.  It works just fine.  They do it in Florida and it is lots of fun.

I have pulled many Swords in on handline gear.  The trick is to limit the pressure you apply, since it is easy to rip through their relatively soft mouths.  These were on commercial gear, and we often utilized a 'spider' device, to finish the job.  These are multiprong gaff hooks that swivel and are attached to a heavy carrier that xan be clamped on the line, and sent down to gaff the fish in the head during the last 50-100' of the fight.  We once caught a monster 900lb + female that had several smaller 60-100lb males swimming circles around the fish.  I had a fishing rod and free casted seversl beautiful rigged deadbaits riggt in front of these fish, but they showed absolutely no interested.  Swordfish are beautiful and remarkable animsls, and wonderful table fare to boot.


Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: marc77 on March 16, 2015, 01:34:31 PM


Tightlines:

The 900 lbs swordfish must have been an awesome sight.  The largest that we caught sport fishing was 400 lbs and that was a large fish.  I cannot imagine what a fish more than twice that size would look like.



Title: Re: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
Post by: Tightlines666 on March 16, 2015, 02:37:49 PM


Tightlines:

The 900 lbs swordfish must have been an awesome sight.  The largest that we caught sport fishing was 400 lbs and that was a large fish.  I cannot imagine what a fish more than twice that size would look like.



It was a true monster, and still stands as the 3rd largest caught in history of (past 15 years) of the HI-permitted Swordfish longline fishery.  She came up dead, and was full of cookie cutter bites, old, healed battle scars, and shark bite wounds.  If only that fish could have talked.