Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => Tools and Lubricants => Topic started by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 01:32:09 AM

Title: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 01:32:09 AM
at the end, we threw the reel into the freezer to cool it down and the drag pressure returned to 7.5 pounds. 

https://youtu.be/e5EC4aJc1Q0
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Dominick on November 14, 2015, 01:51:35 AM
Interesting.  What this tells me is that maybe it is not necessary to loosen the drag when a big fish is taking line against the drag.  If this happens all the time when the drags heat up then the reel self adjusts the drag.  When the fish tires and you start to gain line pouring cool water on the reel should bring your drag back to where it was to start. What do you think fellow members?  Dominick
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: MarkT on November 14, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
Did you do your standard of lots of grease and let it squeeze out under pressure? I always work the grease in then wipe them off so they look dry before installing them. I grease them to keep water from getting in, not to make them slippery. I'm sure the grease gets runny when it gets hot and degrades the drags.

Did you do another run with dry drags to compare?
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 02:21:31 AM
no, but a dry drag test would be a good idea!!!
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 14, 2015, 03:46:06 AM
Nice contraption you got there, put it in the mail and send it over, I would love to take it for a spin.
Better yet, let me send you a couple of delrin washers, one for under the main gear to replace the carbon fiber washer and one for the top of the stack and see what happens. I also have some perforated metal washers that brought down the temperature on some of mine homemade tests, I could send those as well, along with a heat sensor gun, a gift from one of the members here.

Sal
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tightlines667 on November 14, 2015, 03:46:14 AM
Nice job on the simple test/demonstration Alan!

You can't argue with that clear demonstration of the effects of heat on drag.
 
I have heard that at higher temperatures the swelling of the gear sleeve, and to a lesser extent the metal drag washers can cause binding resulting in an inability to back off, or adjust the drag, and an increase in spikes/surginess.  

I would expect you would find similar results with dry drag washers, but would likely get a higher temp/lower drag quicker, and more 'surginess'.  Measured drag would likely be a little greater (at a given setting) as well.  

Dominick, I think you are onto something with not having to back the drag off as much as one might think as the fish runs, but bear in mind the spool diameter likely has a greater effect (or at least a significant one) on effective drag then temp.  Also, don't forget that the more line that is in the water (and the greater diameter of that line), the more drag is produced by that line moving through the water.  This can simply cause line to come off of the reel more readily on the 'reel end', but there is no drag at the 'fish end' of things, and pressure on the fish and terminal tackle will increase.  This is partially why the gear usually fails nearer the fish then the reel.  

Alan's test was conducted with a constant spool diameter.  Different results (in terms of measured drag on the line, at the reel) might occur with a large diameter spool, filled with large diameter line being emptied rapidly.  This may be epecially true when the spool becomes less then 1/2 or 1/3 full.  Spool RPMs also increase exponentially as the spool diameter decreases.  

I am still going to back the drag off once I start to get to 400-500yds of my 1200 with a big fish running at full bore, regardless of how hot the reel is getting.  and I still prefer to manage the heat, by pouring water on the reel as needed.  

Delron above and below the drag stack will likely smooth out some of the surginess (especially at changing speed, and higher drag settings), but isn't likely to reduce the effects of heat drag.

This is good stuff, and deserves a bit more testing.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 14, 2015, 04:03:08 AM
Smoother reel, less heat...it all relates.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 04:27:08 AM
yeah, mostly i need a way of checking the temperature of the handle nut.  that seems to be the best place to go for a temperature. 
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Dominick on November 14, 2015, 04:58:21 AM
Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 04:27:08 AM
yeah, mostly i need a way of checking the temperature of the handle nut.  that seems to be the best place to go for a temperature. 
Alan you pulled your hand away pretty quick.  Was the part you touched that hot that you think it could have burned you?  Dominick
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 05:01:28 AM
yup, it was pretty friggin' hot!!!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tightlines667 on November 14, 2015, 05:03:38 AM
Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 05:01:28 AM
yup, it was pretty friggin' hot!!!!!!!  ;D

ouch!
I could almost feel your pain.  You can't make that stuff up :)
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: SoCalAngler on November 14, 2015, 07:57:42 AM
Nice work there Alan.

Without a blister would it been as much fun?

I agree with your observation as I would of not expected that result either.

But, to throw a monkey wrench in, it's kinda what I do. The reel is loosing drag pressure as it heats up right? Now to get the drags that hot under fishing conditions a fish must be ripping line off the reel, right? Since the line diameter on the spool is getting smaller the actual drag pressure on the line to the fish will increase. I'm just wondering if the loss of drag because of the heat would be offset by the lines diameter on the spool getting smaller?

Sorry to ask a question that most likely can't be answered because of all the variables in the equation, but this is the stuff that gets the hamsters turning the wheel in my head.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 08:29:48 AM
at some point, you have to get that fish to the gaff.  if this fish can rip out 400 to 500 yards of line, your reel will be so hot and you'll loose so much drag that you will not get it back.  not unless you throw the rod into the water (attached to a backup, of course).  if you are able to get the fish up to the boat, then chances are you never heated it up to begin with. 

the problem is see is these prolonged fights where you have a stand off.  you have to know what your drag pressures are at all times, and you have to be able to adjust your drag settings.  you can do this blindly.  you have to know, which means attaching a scale to the reel during a fight to measure.  Yeah, good luck with that!   
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: LTM on November 14, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
Alan,

When I saw the drag decreasing as the motor turned faster I thought of "break fade" . Break fade as when at the end of a quarter mile run at the drag strip. You kinda get used to it after awhile; when you apply brakes (sometimes with "both" feet) and "wait" for the speed of the car to slow down to where the brakes will start to work again.

Leo
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 14, 2015, 10:20:42 AM
I've mentioned above you have a nice contraption, when I was doing some personal tests for myself, I used a hand held drill, not easy.
I gave up on testing due to too many parts getting wasted and too much time involved.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.msg68251#msg68251
Trying to control heat build up would be great, but might not be that easy to achieve.
Having a nice fish peeling line off the reel for an hour or so and having a gadget trying to imitate it is not the same, but it sure helps.
On another note:
Using Adam's inserts have made it possible for us to triple the drag numbers on some reels.
Of course the reels with the inserts should not be fished at those numbers, we need to be realistic. We've been doing it for other reasons.
Comparing a stock 9/0 to a 9/0 with Adams inserts, the stock 9/0 gave me a hard time retrieving weight
at 25lb of drag while turning the handle. I then tried it with the 9/0 with the insert, that same weight was so easy to retrieve, even a kid could have done it.
Does this change things as for heat build up...I don't know.

Sal
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on November 14, 2015, 11:41:19 AM
More drag = More friction = More heat laws of physics. It would definitely be worth running your test again Alan - but with dry drags. With most 'liquids' There is an effect (meniscus effect) that happens to the aspherites (surface irregularities) at molecular level. This can cause more friction = more heat. Once the grease reaches its dropping point friction could start to decrease ie less drag. That's why 'dry' results could be very interesting.
My own tests, on my line spooler drag, did not produce a significant temperature rise. The drag tower is a 10x3x2" chunk of aluminium with 3x1/4" discs bolted to it. A star drag reel does not have the same capability to dissipate the heat. Your results could be very interesting :-\
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 14, 2015, 12:00:42 PM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 14, 2015, 11:41:19 AM
More drag = More friction = More heat laws of physics.
I agree! but in my case I mentioned the two reels were pulling the same weight. No additional drag was needed and yet the handle turned with much less effort on the reel with higher drag numbers capability. I would think less effort, more smoothness = less heat build up, but what do I know :-\.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on November 14, 2015, 12:05:05 PM
Did both reels have the delrin washers?
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 14, 2015, 02:23:34 PM
Yes, all my reels have a delrin washer for under the gear. The reel with the insert might have had two, one for under the gear and one on top, but I'm not sure about the one on top of the stack.
These reels had different system with the gears, one had the insert and one was stock.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Shark Hunter on November 14, 2015, 03:43:48 PM
Pretty Innovative boss.
Sal's Idea of a temp gun would work well as it heats up.
I have one you can use.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 14, 2015, 06:01:35 PM
it might just be brake fade, as you describe.  gotta repeat this with dry drags next.  the drag has to be measured as a function of temperature.  i'll bet that's the key!
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Keta on November 14, 2015, 06:05:08 PM
Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 02:21:31 AM
no, but a dry drag test would be a good idea!!!

Yup.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: basto on November 15, 2015, 12:42:49 AM
So maybe if we could make the surface area of the carbontex washers twice the size of the metal drag washers, the heat would have more area to dissipate into...kinda like the increased surface area on a fluted target rifle barrel cools more quickly because of the bigger surface area.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: FatTuna on November 15, 2015, 02:31:00 AM
Quote from: Dominick on November 14, 2015, 01:51:35 AM
Interesting.  What this tells me is that maybe it is not necessary to loosen the drag when a big fish is taking line against the drag.  If this happens all the time when the drags heat up then the reel self adjusts the drag.  When the fish tires and you start to gain line pouring cool water on the reel should bring your drag back to where it was to start. What do you think fellow members?  Dominick

Interesting video and good post.

This video demonstrates the relationship between friction, heat, and drag but it doesn't factor in decreasing spool diameter. I think the decrease in spool diameter has a more significant overall influence on the drag in the real world. Although, I can't say for certain how heat would affect the drag after an excessively long battle. Nevertheless, I typically increase the drag pressure when a fish is taking a lot of line.

If the line is getting low, an angler really only has three options: one is to increase the drag hoping to slow down the fish and quickly gain back line. Two, is to chase down the fish in the boat. Three, is to back off the drag with line preservation in mind and hope that the fish doesn't take all the line.

My technique is to judge the fish on the fly. I'll preset the drag and won't touch it unless the fish proves itself. Once hooked up and off the ball, we will chase it down. If the fish is taking a lot of line, I will progressively click up the drag one notch at a time until I can slow it down. After I've gotten some line back, I will bring it down right below strike. Even fishing a big reel, while chasing it down, with heavy drag, I've almost gotten spooled a few times.

Can't catch a fish if you don't have any line left..... Can't catch a fish with a pulled hook or a broken line either...... I guess you have to pick your poison.

I think what's more important is to plan before you get into a situation where you won't be able to land the fish. I feel it's important to select a reel that is big enough to handle the largest fish you are likely to encounter because you can't go back in time and do it over.

My two cents.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 15, 2015, 10:40:52 PM
yeah, just trying to work with as few variables at a time as i can!   ;D
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: CapeFish on November 16, 2015, 06:43:59 AM
Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 08:29:48 AM
at some point, you have to get that fish to the gaff.  if this fish can rip out 400 to 500 yards of line, your reel will be so hot and you'll loose so much drag that you will not get it back.  not unless you throw the rod into the water (attached to a backup, of course).  if you are able to get the fish up to the boat, then chances are you never heated it up to begin with. 

the problem is see is these prolonged fights where you have a stand off.  you have to know what your drag pressures are at all times, and you have to be able to adjust your drag settings.  you can do this blindly.  you have to know, which means attaching a scale to the reel during a fight to measure.  Yeah, good luck with that!   

Hi Alan, this is a great test, thanks for doing this, we regularly have such long runs with sharks from the shore, actually often much longer. I have had them run out close to 800m and then you get line back and then off it goes again. The side plate does get hot, but usually you can still touch it, but I am wondering due to using metal bodied reels (Toriums) the heat dissipates better? Also will Delrin withstand the heat? I made a replacement espresso pot handle (the standard plastic one broke off) from a piece of delrin and it melted away on the first use.
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 10:59:57 AM
Capefish - Delrin (hom) has a melting point of 347°F Acetal (co) has a melting point a few degrees lower - a coffee pot shouldn't approach that unless you put it onto a hob

Sal - maybe one set of gears has a better 'mesh' than the other - smoother and more efficient maybe a different ratio :-\
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: CapeFish on November 16, 2015, 11:26:20 AM
That's around 175C, that's not very high, I did place it on a hob and had been doing so for a long time with the old plastic handle
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Alto Mare on November 16, 2015, 11:29:22 AM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 10:59:57 AM


Sal - maybe one set of gears has a better 'mesh' than the other - smoother and more efficient maybe a different ratio :-\
I'm not sure that's it. I have tested the 4/0, 6/0 9/0 and also the Jigmaster, of course at different settings.
All the reels gave the same results, as being much smoother at recommended max when increasing  drag capacity.
I always believed that when increasing the drag numbers on a reel makes it much smoother at where it was meant to be fished at.
Anyone could try this and see if they agree or disagree, it might  just be me hallucinating:-\
Now, why this happens?... I can't explain it, but I'm sure there are a few here that could.


Leon, put the coffee pot down and grab a reel  ;D. You were dealing with heat coming from different direction and I'm sure steam, not an accurate test.

Sal
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 12:10:50 PM
Sal - one reason could be that you are running the improved drags at a lower pressure - more drag plates=lower pressure to get standard drag numbers :-\
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 01:54:10 PM
Alan - One further 'variable' that occurs to me is as follows:

On a star drag reel we have a shaft with gear and drag stack at one end and the star on the other.
In between the drag stack and star are usually bellevilles or similar. The washers are compressed to apply a gradual force to the drag stack.
When this whole assembly is heated the shaft lengthens (linear expansion). It may only be a fraction of a millimetre but it may be enough to reduce the applied torque on the washers.
Others parts will expand as well but the length of the shaft is the most important dimension.

A 50mm steel shaft heated by 50°C will expand to approx. 50.03mm (if my math is correct ;)) Whether that is enough to affect the drag is open to question :-\ It was certainly hot enough judging by your reaction ;D
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B on November 16, 2015, 08:39:21 PM
how about a non-stationary test, attached the drag scale to a post or such and attached the reel to a bicycle or automobile and drive to a certain speed while somebody is filming the scale. this will simulate a fish taking line off the reel, just a suggestion...
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on November 16, 2015, 11:08:06 PM
peeling line off at a pretty fast rate would not be a problem.  off the top, i would guess that we would have to "spool" this reel a couple of times to get the temp as high as we did by just running this reel at a constant rate. to know for sure, i would have to measure the temp.  matt is going to help me out with this. 
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Ling on November 17, 2015, 01:07:57 AM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 01:54:10 PM
Alan - One further 'variable' that occurs to me is as follows:

On a star drag reel we have a shaft with gear and drag stack at one end and the star on the other.
In between the drag stack and star are usually bellevilles or similar. The washers are compressed to apply a gradual force to the drag stack.
When this whole assembly is heated the shaft lengthens (linear expansion). It may only be a fraction of a millimetre but it may be enough to reduce the applied torque on the washers.
Others parts will expand as well but the length of the shaft is the most important dimension.

A 50mm steel shaft heated by 50°C will expand to approx. 50.03mm (if my math is correct ;)) Whether that is enough to affect the drag is open to question :-\ It was certainly hot enough judging by your reaction ;D

My guess is that the change in spool diameter would be a much greater % than the change in drag due to temperature....therefore friction.  I suppose understanding how temperature increases in relation to line lost is a large factor needing to be answered.  Cool stuff to investigate.  Love the questions that pop up here!
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: jurelometer on November 17, 2015, 11:59:06 PM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 01:54:10 PM
Alan - One further 'variable' that occurs to me is as follows:

On a star drag reel we have a shaft with gear and drag stack at one end and the star on the other.
In between the drag stack and star are usually bellevilles or similar. The washers are compressed to apply a gradual force to the drag stack.
When this whole assembly is heated the shaft lengthens (linear expansion). It may only be a fraction of a millimetre but it may be enough to reduce the applied torque on the washers.
Others parts will expand as well but the length of the shaft is the most important dimension.

A 50mm steel shaft heated by 50°C will expand to approx. 50.03mm (if my math is correct ;)) Whether that is enough to affect the drag is open to question :-\ It was certainly hot enough judging by your reaction ;D

.03 mm = ~. 0012 in - at 32 TPI for a fine threaded sleeve we are talking about .0315 in per full revolution.
.0315/.0012 = 1/26 of a revolution or about 14 degrees.   Not enough to cut the drag in half.   Plus all the heated elements (drag washers...) will expand-  not sure how much if any springiness a belville or wave washer will lose- but this could contribute.

But you brought up an interesting point.  One or both of the following had to have changed: the coefficient of friction or the force on the stack.    Changes in the force on the top of the stack can be measured by hacking a star adapter to a torque wrench. 

Changes to the coefficient of friction might be  cauesd by viscosity changes in the grease.

I am looking forward to the dry drag test!
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2015, 05:47:50 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2015, 11:59:06 PM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on November 16, 2015, 01:54:10 PM
Alan - One further 'variable' that occurs to me is as follows:

On a star drag reel we have a shaft with gear and drag stack at one end and the star on the other.
In between the drag stack and star are usually bellevilles or similar. The washers are compressed to apply a gradual force to the drag stack.
When this whole assembly is heated the shaft lengthens (linear expansion). It may only be a fraction of a millimetre but it may be enough to reduce the applied torque on the washers.
Others parts will expand as well but the length of the shaft is the most important dimension.

A 50mm steel shaft heated by 50°C will expand to approx. 50.03mm (if my math is correct ;)) Whether that is enough to affect the drag is open to question :-\ It was certainly hot enough judging by your reaction ;D

.03 mm = ~. 0012 in - at 32 TPI for a fine threaded sleeve we are talking about .0315 in per full revolution.
.0315/.0012 = 1/26 of a revolution or about 14 degrees.   Not enough to cut the drag in half.   Plus all the heated elements (drag washers...) will expand-  not sure how much if any springiness a belville or wave washer will lose- but this could contribute.

But you brought up an interesting point.  One or both of the following had to have changed: the coefficient of friction or the force on the stack.    Changes in the force on the top of the stack can be measured by hacking a star adapter to a torque wrench. 

Changes to the coefficient of friction might be  cauesd by viscosity changes in the grease.

I am looking forward to the dry drag test!

Aaargh.  Just realized  that a change in the coefficient of friction will change the torque to force ratio.   So measuring the torque probably won't help to differentiate between  a change in force to a change to COF. 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming. 

-J
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Tightlines667 on November 18, 2015, 06:52:46 AM
That was an interesting thought, and well worth considering, though it seems other factors are at play here as well.

This seems to be a popular topic of discussion here at AT, and elsewhere on the net.  I seem to remember a post (somewhere deep in the AT archieves) related directly to the effects of heat on COF in greased verses dry CF.  I did a quick search and ran accross these other somewhat related threads, and thought I would share*....

*not a comprehensive list, and in no particular order

Be forewarned though...

You might need more then one cup of coffee to work your way through the body of work that has been amassed on this site.

DRAGENSTEIN
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15510.0

Coating metal drag washers.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12514.0

A word on Friction & Heat
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9168.0

Calculating main gear shaft torque from drag settings
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0

Drag Washer Friction Estimates
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7412.0

Experimenting with the 113H drags
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.0

helpin do the math on square area calculations!
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10024.0

Re: Why carbontex under main gear?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7711.15

Teflon, Delrin or UHMW
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12464.0

penn drag washer surface area
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6203.0

Myth Busters sets a fishing reel on fire?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=2283.0

Yet another drag question but one that I can't find an answer for.  High Speed Runout
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=576.0

avet's response to the grease issue
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0

Re: Proper way to test drag *
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5527.msg45454#msg45454

How hot do drags really get? *
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=8670.0

*Note: The photo of Robert Janssen's wonderfull 'Drag Machine Test Rig'

o yea... and there are something like 200+ threads that mention 'Drag Grease' in them.

http://alantani.com/index.php?action=search2

I like Alan's simple, no nonsense approach... simply test, and note the results.  Examining exactly what is going on, why, and looking into the engineering, physics, and math behind these is another slightly more complicated matter altogether.

:-\
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: ALASKAFISHMAN on February 21, 2016, 03:25:10 AM
Wow another great thread.  I have been visiting this site for a while and just became a member.  I am amazed at all the information, tests, results.  One thing for sure you guys are getting everything you can get out of your reels.  It has also opened my eyes to how ineffective my reel maintenance has been.  I have gone thru a few of my reels applying what I have learned here and What a difference it has made in the performance of the gear I have been able to service.  All of my reels thank you. 

Brent
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: alantani on February 21, 2016, 06:06:41 AM
brent, probably the main thing is that there is no advertising money to hold sway over anyone.  i think that is the reason that things here are reported so honestly.  throw money into the mix and things get cloudy really quickly.  it also means that none of us are going to get rich.   ;D
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: MolBasser on April 20, 2018, 02:40:08 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 18, 2015, 06:52:46 AM
That was an interesting thought, and well worth considering, though it seems other factors are at play here as well.

This seems to be a popular topic of discussion here at AT, and elsewhere on the net.  I seem to remember a post (somewhere deep in the AT archieves) related directly to the effects of heat on COF in greased verses dry CF.  I did a quick search and ran accross these other somewhat related threads, and thought I would share*....

*not a comprehensive list, and in no particular order

Be forewarned though...

You might need more then one cup of coffee to work your way through the body of work that has been amassed on this site.

DRAGENSTEIN
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15510.0

Coating metal drag washers.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12514.0

A word on Friction & Heat
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9168.0

Calculating main gear shaft torque from drag settings
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0

Drag Washer Friction Estimates
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7412.0

Experimenting with the 113H drags
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.0

helpin do the math on square area calculations!
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=10024.0

Re: Why carbontex under main gear?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7711.15

Teflon, Delrin or UHMW
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12464.0

penn drag washer surface area
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6203.0

Myth Busters sets a fishing reel on fire?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=2283.0

Yet another drag question but one that I can't find an answer for.  High Speed Runout
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=576.0

avet's response to the grease issue
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0

Re: Proper way to test drag *
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5527.msg45454#msg45454

How hot do drags really get? *
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=8670.0

*Note: The photo of Robert Janssen's wonderfull 'Drag Machine Test Rig'

o yea... and there are something like 200+ threads that mention 'Drag Grease' in them.

http://alantani.com/index.php?action=search2

I like Alan's simple, no nonsense approach... simply test, and note the results.  Examining exactly what is going on, why, and looking into the engineering, physics, and math behind these is another slightly more complicated matter altogether.

:-\

Yeah, this forum is such a damn rabbit hole.......  I love it.  Did any experiments with dry drags get done or is it in another thread.... 

Hoo boy do I have a lot of reading to do....

MolBasser
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Glos on February 16, 2023, 10:28:18 AM
I wonder, does spinning reel rotor depending on material it is made of, participates in heat dissipation from prolonged drag activation ?
Metal being better at it than composite.
I know it has no real contact with spool, but I also think that somewhere along the line I have seen images of aluminium rotor being better at heat dispersion than plastic...
.........or have I ??
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: Squidder Bidder on November 20, 2023, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: Glos on February 16, 2023, 10:28:18 AMI wonder, does spinning reel rotor depending on material it is made of, participates in heat dissipation from prolonged drag activation ?
Metal being better at it than composite.
I know it has no real contact with spool, but I also think that somewhere along the line I have seen images of aluminium rotor being better at heat dispersion than plastic...
.........or have I ??

I think it does, at least according to Shimano, which advertises a heat dissipating material in the rotors of its high end spinning reels (i.e., Stella) which is supposed to maintain even drag pressures. 
Title: Re: drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags
Post by: jurelometer on November 20, 2023, 06:37:24 PM
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 20, 2023, 03:10:48 PM
Quote from: Glos on February 16, 2023, 10:28:18 AMI wonder, does spinning reel rotor depending on material it is made of, participates in heat dissipation from prolonged drag activation ?
Metal being better at it than composite.
I know it has no real contact with spool, but I also think that somewhere along the line I have seen images of aluminium rotor being better at heat dispersion than plastic...
.........or have I ??

I think it does, at least according to Shimano, which advertises a heat dissipating material in the rotors of its high end spinning reels (i.e., Stella) which is supposed to maintain even drag pressures. 

Don't see how the rotor material helps.  And didn't see this in the Shimano marketing babblespeak after a quick check.

The heat would have to travel from the drag through the shaft, bearings, pinion, etc, before reaching the rotor. All materials and shapes that are not good heat conductors.   The spool is a much shorter path, and  would probably have to have gotten hot enough to melt all the line before the rotor would even warm up a degree or two.

You could design a rotor that works a as a cooling fan to blow air through some spool ports to cool the drag, but you usually are not turning the handle when the drag is heating up.  Somebody must of though of this fan idea, as it is a nice feature to market, whether or not it works.

Shimano does advertise using a heat sink under the spool on the high end spinners, which might actually help a little with heat.  While it probably won't dissipate much heat very quickly itself, it could draw some of the heat off the drag stack (which is what a heat sink technically does). I wouldn't be surprised if the greatest benefit is in justifying a higher price point.  :D

-J