Started last summer, hopefully the guides will go on this month (or next)..;)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11-14%2000.34.19.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11-14%2000.34.19.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20151205_172349.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151205_172349.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20151205_172601.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151205_172601.jpg.html)
Sweet!
Looks like a magic staff to me.
Very nice! Excellent color choices.
................Lou
Very Nice!
Either that rod is gigantic or that pool table is very small. :D
Very nice looking weave pattern. My patience does not allow that kind of work in my shop.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on January 05, 2016, 12:17:26 AM
Very Nice!
Either that rod is gigantic or that pool table is very small. :D
I bet it's all done with mirrors! ;D ;D ;D
Oh, and very nice spiral wrap and color selection!!!
Sid
SE FL
Mahalos guys...Yes I am 780 lbs and 10 ft tall, my pool set is custom-made using bowling balls... :D
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160104_184742.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160104_184742.jpg.html)
Picked it up for $2 at the local goodwill...Thought it might make a nice mini-work table with plastic cups in the pockets to hold parts, but the sides kept getting in the way, so now it's now used as a backdrop for photos..
Quote from: Newell Nut on January 05, 2016, 12:48:39 AM
Very nice looking weave pattern. My patience does not allow that kind of work in my shop.
I work at a much slower pace than most and rotate between 2-3 rods working a little on each at a time...Seems to help with my patience issues...Then again I only wrap as a hobby and don't have to deal w/the pressure of time constraints, paperwork, etc that come with running a business...The above wrap took nearly 6 months, carpet tape to lock the threads in place and plastic dust covers come in handy..
Chad
Beautiful Chad. I love your mix of decorative butt wraps on one rod.
What kind of guides are you going to install? Ti Hilo guides?
Thanks for the kind words Brian..
I'll probably go with plain old Fuji BMNAG Alconites.
Tried saving up for titanium once, but ended up purchasing reels instead.. :D
Chad
excellent piece of work there, brutha.
Quote from: thorhammer on January 05, 2016, 02:50:08 PM
excellent piece of work there, brutha.
Yup! you got some talent there Chad.
Sal
Quote from: cbar45 on January 05, 2016, 01:13:59 PM
Thanks for the kind words Brian..
I'll probably go with plain old Fuji BMNAG Alconites.
Tried saving up for titanium once, but ended up purchasing reels instead.. :D
Chad
I bought my first Titanium set yesterday and I said I never would. Going on a really cool red Hercules spinner soon.
I've looked closer, and am wowed even more! How do you get the spiral wrap with the alternating light and dark squares? That is amazing! I'd love to know how you did that....
Sid
SE FL
cbr45: Sensational Job!! I look forward to seeing the finished product.
Joe
Thanks all, I will post more photos once completed..
NewellNut-
Colors red and titanium sound like an awesome combination! I also like garnet/copper, chestnut/gold, and orange/silver..
Sid-
That pattern is known as a "spider" wrap in Dale Clemen's book Custom Rod Thread Art (shown)...Without getting too technical, the outside "box" threads are what forms the background...If each thread making up the box is the same color, you will get a solid background...But, if you alternate between two different colors (on wraps of 4 axes or more), the end result will be a checkerboard background--so long your initial layout is accurate..
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160106_005258.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160106_005258.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20150913_165445.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150913_165445.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20150913_205908.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150913_205908.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20150916_142310.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150916_142310.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20150916_231857.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150916_231857.jpg.html)
Love it :) I wish I had the patience for something like that :(
Chad
A friend has a book on wraps on the market & he is doing classes up & down the coast. Billy Varona is his name. Besides wrapping rods he does Inlays in Eva Grips. The one he did for me was Cross Ridgid Pipe Wrenches.
Mike
Mike, I've seen Billy Varona's name somewhere - I think the NERBS (North East Rod BuilderS)
Chad, now that I see a closeup I have a better idea. Do you wrap one thread at a time, or 3 at once for the background colors? Very nice work!
Sid
SE FL
You sir, are an artist, and that is gorgeous!
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
Joe
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
Joe
Joe...
Good Luck!
Would love to see some pics of your marking and wrapping stages, for those of us new to the rod wrapping game.
Yes Sid that's the same person. If you check his site he might be doing a class or 2 in Fla. this year.
Mike
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 06, 2016, 10:12:33 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
Joe
Joe...
Good Luck!
Would love to see some pics of your marking and wrapping stages, for those of us new to the rod wrapping game.
I'm new to rod wrapping also, but I'm willing to try.
Joe
Quote from: bluefish69 on January 06, 2016, 04:41:11 PM
Chad
A friend has a book on wraps on the market & he is doing classes up & down the coast. Billy Varona is his name. Besides wrapping rods he does Inlays in Eva Grips. The one he did for me was Cross Ridgid Pipe Wrenches.
Mike
Hey Mike,
I actually purchased the madeira thread used in this wrap from Billy V of Northeast Rod Builders...I don't have his book, but believe I saw a photo of the inlays he did for you on one of the other rodbuilding/fishing forums, probably stripersonline...Very nice work!...Wish I could attend one of the NERBS gatherings, but seeing as how I'm 4500 miles away it won't be any time soon..
Quote from: sdlehr on January 06, 2016, 06:06:39 PM
Mike, I've seen Billy Varona's name somewhere - I think the NERBS (North East Rod BuilderS)
Chad, now that I see a closeup I have a better idea. Do you wrap one thread at a time, or 3 at once for the background colors? Very nice work!
Sid
SE FL
Sid,
For the background I wrap in bands of 2-6 threads at a time, depending on how many threads the current pass requires...In general it's easier to make adjustments wrapping in bands, but the more thread you use per band, the more jagged the centerline will end up looking...On simple open diamonds/chevrons I might do one thread at a time for that super-clean look, but don't have the laser-like focus to do so on closed wraps--especially when it's a large diameter surf blank...ouch ;)
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
Joe
Joe, good luck...Just starting off at this--and to paraphrase one of my teachers--the best advice I received is to wrap like crap...Seriously, once I accepted that every thread wasn't going to fall into place perfectly and that the end result probably won't look like the picture in the book, it became easier to focus on HOW the wrap is put together rather than what it looks like...It gets better after that...Anyway let me know if you have any questions on layout, wrapping sequence, etc...I'm not a pro, but will do my best to answer..
Quote from: cbar45 on January 07, 2016, 03:02:14 AM
the more thread you use per band, the more jagged the centerline will end up looking...
Yup, I saw that and that's why I asked... I've done a few spiral wraps, a few weaves, and it takes patience, time, regular breaks, and some good tunes playing in the background.... I've spent a few days (in spurts) on a weave before. I like wrapping bands of 2-5 or 6 threads at a time, it can make a 4-hr wrap into a 2-hr wrap, but whether to do that or not depends on the pattern as you said. In some you can get away with more than others, especially open wraps.
Quote from: cbar45 on January 07, 2016, 03:02:14 AM
Quote from: sdlehr on January 06, 2016, 06:06:39 PM
Mike, I've seen Billy Varona's name somewhere - I think the NERBS (North East Rod BuilderS)
Chad, now that I see a closeup I have a better idea. Do you wrap one thread at a time, or 3 at once for the background colors? Very nice work!
Sid
SE FL
Sid,
For the background I wrap in bands of 2-6 threads at a time, depending on how many threads the current pass requires...In general it's easier to make adjustments wrapping in bands, but the more thread you use per band, the more jagged the centerline will end up looking...On simple open diamonds/chevrons I might do one thread at a time for that super-clean look, but don't have the laser-like focus to do so on closed wraps--especially when it's a large diameter surf blank...ouch ;)
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
Joe
Joe, good luck...Just starting off at this--and to paraphrase one of my teachers--the best advice I received is to wrap like crap...Seriously, once I accepted that every thread wasn't going to fall into place perfectly and that the end result probably won't look like the picture in the book, it became easier to focus on HOW the wrap is put together rather than what it looks like...It gets better after that...Anyway let me know if you have any questions on layout, wrapping sequence, etc...I'm not a pro, but will do my best to answer..
I could use help on the layout and how you pull each color if that makes sense. Or what book that it came from so I could purchase it. I'm sure there are other steps that I'm missing or don't understand on the sequence of threads to lay out. I'm green as the grass when it comes to this sort of wrap.
Joe
Joe, find yourself a couple or three YouTube videos on spiral wraps and you'll see how it's done. It's much easier seen than explained in writing. I could explain what I do, but not sure it would be understandable by anyone but myself. It's not hard, it's just got to start off precisely. You have to mark 180 degrees on the rod, measure out the spacing on both axes, and if there's a significant taper to the rod that will affect the final outcome as well; it can be corrected for, but it's not easy to explain in words.
Sid
SE FL
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 06, 2016, 07:58:04 PM
I'm going to try my hand with that pattern. Wish me luck ;)
I could use help on the layout and how you pull each color if that makes sense. Or what book that it came from so I could purchase it. I'm sure there are other steps that I'm missing or don't understand on the sequence of threads to lay out. I'm green as the grass when it comes to this sort of wrap.
Joe
Quote from: sdlehr on January 07, 2016, 08:56:03 PM
Joe, find yourself a couple or three YouTube videos on spiral wraps and you'll see how it's done. It's much easier seen than explained in writing. I could explain what I do, but not sure it would be understandable by anyone but myself. It's not hard, it's just got to start off precisely. You have to mark 180 degrees on the rod, measure out the spacing on both axes, and if there's a significant taper to the rod that will affect the final outcome as well; it can be corrected for, but it's not easy to explain in words.
Sid
SE FL
Very true, much depends upon one's learning style...I don't know about youtube videos/tutorials, but I can speak for rodbuilding books having taught myself largely using that method of learning...Dale Clemen's three books are:
1. Fiberglass Rod-Making
2. Advanced Custom Rod Building (If you only had time for one Clemens book, this would be it imho)
3. Custom Rod Thread Art (This is the book that contains the "spider" pattern I posted)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160107_235243.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160107_235243.jpg.html)
Two other books that may be of interest are:
1. Rod Building Guide by Tom Kirkman
(A great introductory book that covers all the bases for those just starting out).
Tom is also editor of Rodmaker Magazine:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160107_234948.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160107_234948.jpg.html)
2. Decorative Wraps by Billy Vivona
(Dedicated entirely to crosswraps, I believe the "spider" pattern is also in this book...It helps to have a working understanding of basic layout and the terminology used in crosswraps before purchasing Billy's book).
Regarding layout, you will need to learn something called "Taper Offset Layout" which is what Sid described...What this does is space each cross-over point in accord with the rod blank's taper, allowing the pattern to fit almost perfectly...i.e. If you attempt to close a wrap without using TOS, you'll find that the thinner section closer to the tip will be fully covered by thread, while the wider section near the butt will still have parts of the blank peeking through..TOS is not so critical with open wraps like diamonds and chevrons, but a must for closed wraps..
Thread sequence refers to the manner in which the thread gets wrapped onto the blank...It can be thought of as a list of steps that you repeat over and over again until the pattern is complete...One completed cycle of the thread sequence up and down the blank is known as a "pass"...For example, the sequence of a "spider" pattern is:
1. Cross-Out
(Bands of thread are wrapped on each side of the center "x" such that it builds outwards)
2. Box-Out, Plus one
(Bands of thread are wrapped on each side of the outer "box" such that it builds outwards)
"Plus one" refers to the fact that you will be adding a single thread to every band each successive "pass"..
So to summarize, for someone just starting out and wanting to do a "spider" wrap, their progress might look something like this:
1. Learn the terminology of crosswraps and how it is applied.
2. Learn how to layout a simple open diamond/chevron wrap, then progress on to learning "taper offset" layout.
3. Layout the initial threads for a "spider" pattern and wrap its thread sequence until completed.
Hope this helps,
Chad
PS,
I am not affiliated with any of the above-mentioned authors or publications, they are simply avenues of learning which were--and still are--of help to me when it comes to building fishing rods..
Both Tom and Billy's books are in current publication and can be purchased from most of the vendors that supply rodbuilding components, or you can purchase Billy's book directly from him at xlrods@yahoo.com..
I believe some--if not all--of Clemen's books are out of print, but they can be still be found in some local libraries...They also show up quite often for sale on ebay which is how I obtained my copies..
Chad: Thank you very much for the information you furnished me with, that is very helpful. I am a person that needs to read something to get it straight rather then told and I can use that information to reference over and over again. I am going to follow your advice.
By the way I couldn't help noticing the black cat you are holding in you arms. We had a black cat named Black Jack. He was a wonderful cat.
Joe
Chad: I bought both books you suggest from Amazon.
2. Advanced Custom Rod Building (If you only had time for one Clemens book, this would be it imho)
3. Custom Rod Thread Art (This is the book that contains the "spider" pattern I posted
Thanks again;
Joe
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 08, 2016, 05:08:23 PM
Chad: I bought both books you suggest from Amazon.
2. Advanced Custom Rod Building (If you only had time for one Clemens book, this would be it imho)
3. Custom Rod Thread Art (This is the book that contains the "spider" pattern I posted
Thanks again;
Joe
Joe,
You did good...Those two books alone are a vast source of information and how-to's, not just for crosswraps, but on rodbuilding in general..
"Midnight" is the name of the black cat in my profile photo...He is actually my wife's cat since she took care of him since he was a kitten...We also have another cat, part sailpoint siamese, who is great friends with Midnight...His name is "Snowshoes" aka Mr. Rod Blank Inspector...;)
Chad
Cats are cool! ;D Looks like I'm going to be doing lots of reading before I start this new rod.
Joe
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 09, 2016, 02:01:27 AM
Cats are cool! ;D Looks like I'm going to be doing lots of reading before I start this new rod.
Joe
I have the same 2 books, and am only half way though the first. Been too busy reading up on antique fishing reels.
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 09, 2016, 02:01:27 AM
Cats are cool! ;D Looks like I'm going to be doing lots of reading before I start this new rod.
Joe
I have the same 2 books, and am only half way though the first. Been too busy reading up on antique fishing reels.
I'm hoping that I can study enough to start this new blank, but it's tax time and get distracted with tax crap.....can I say crap? ;) ;D
Joe
Too Late, Joe. ;D
I wish you guys the best on your endeavors of rod building and wraps.
Looks like Chad has it down pat.
I will not venture into this unknown, because if I know if I do, I will go crazy with it. ;)
Quote from: Shark Hunter on January 13, 2016, 07:31:57 AM
Too Late, Joe. ;D
I wish you guys the best on your endeavors of rod building and wraps.
Looks like Chad has it down pat.
I will not venture into this unknown, because if I know if I do, I will go crazy with it. ;)
Exactly right! I know because I am there. ;) ;D
Joe
Quote from: Shark Hunter on January 13, 2016, 07:31:57 AM
I will not venture into this unknown, because if I know if I do, I will go crazy with it. ;)
BTDT, I'm in the middle of one build and have two more blanks waiting in line. Keeps me out of trouble when I'm not working...
Sid
SE FL
Chad: I received my copy of the Advanced Custom Rod Building today. I just glanced threw it and it seams quite throw in it's content. I'm looking forward to reading this book. Thank you again for telling me about this.
Joe
P.S. I still am waiting for the other book Custom Rod Art , it's on the way and I will be getting it a few days.
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 13, 2016, 12:56:44 PM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on January 13, 2016, 07:31:57 AM
Too Late, Joe. ;D
I wish you guys the best on your endeavors of rod building and wraps.
Looks like Chad has it down pat.
I will not venture into this unknown, because if I know if I do, I will go crazy with it. ;)
Exactly right! I know because I am there. ;) ;D
Joe
You will be there when you have 50 blanks lined up on one wall of your office and you buy finish epoxy by the gallon. ;D
You are wright there Dwight. I'm not quite there yet with rods or reels. ;D
Joe
Joe, You're welcome... I'm glad you received your book and found the information useful.
Update on the Rainshadow, rear grip and epoxy ramp for the stainless butt cap have been wrapped and finished...Very happy with the grips...Lately I have been experimenting with a top-coat of marine epoxy for a non-slip grip even when wet, (a similar process is used on carbon fiber grips)...Time will tell how it holds up..
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20151023_130104.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151023_130104.jpg.html)
Chad
Beautiful Work Chad! :o
Wow, Chad, gorgeous, sets a mark for me to aspire to... I've built a half-dozen rods so far, mostly for function but I've done a few simple weaves and spiral wraps.
Sid
Chad: I received the second book yesterday Saturday (Custom Rod Thread Art). This book I find is the meat & bones to designing the thread art, although it was published in 1982 it is still great information and learning. I don't know that ill be up to doing such intricate work as you have shown us here but with practice I'm sure ill get there.
This winter you have given me something to read an benefit by. Thank You!
Joe
Guide layout, to be followed by yardwork..;)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_153218.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_153218.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_164852.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_164852.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_171000.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160412_171000.jpg.html)
Chad
Great job, Chad...
Best,
Fred
Nice ulu (breadfruit) tree there too. Not tall and spindly like the ones around here.
-steve
Lookin good there!
Thank you Fred and John.
Quote from: oc1 on April 15, 2016, 08:33:16 PM
Nice ulu (breadfruit) tree there too. Not tall and spindly like the ones around here.
-steve
I call that the chicken tree.. :D
We live in a semi-rural area near farmland, so it is not uncommon to find wild chickens roosting in the lower branches.
Maybe that is one reason the Ulu tree appears to be so robust?.. ;) I do not know.
Nice job Chad! ;)
Joe
Quote from: Reel 224 on April 16, 2016, 12:37:40 PM
Nice job Chad! ;)
Joe
Thanks Joe, it's only a static test, but I do find them strangely relaxing.
Probably because the work is done outdoors; rather than hunched over a workbench counting threads..;)
P.S. Glad to see you on here!
Finished Ruth's rod two weeks ago, I have started another for myself. I know what you mean about hunched over the bench,I'm starting the layout now :P but it's keeping me out of trouble ;) ;D
Joe
Choosing a guide wrap--test patterns done for comparison.
I decided to go with a variant of the last version, under-wrapped with the same JT Dragon-scales used for the grips:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_191738.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_191738.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_192109.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_192109.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_192142.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160428_192142.jpg.html)
Laying out the under-wraps for each guide:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160526_132448.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160526_132448.jpg.html)
Adding inlays to the double over-wrap--"A" over "A", with "A" under:
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/20160603_124712.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160603_124712.jpg.html)
Guides: Fuji MNAG's
Reel Seat: Matagi Andromeda #24
Decorative Wraps: Elongated 4-Axis Spider, JT Dragon-scales, Olive Branch, Faded Inlays
Butt-cap: Heavy Gauge SS-316
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-1.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-1.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-3.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-3.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-4.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-4.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-5.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-5.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-6.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-6.jpg.html)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/RS-7.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/RS-7.jpg.html)
chad
Nice work Chad!
That rod turned out beautifully. A lot of detail there, and those colors look great together.
Great Work Chad!
You got it going on. ;)
Chad; Great to see your work,I have another rod on the lathe and I was stuck on what design to do. That rod you finished inspired me to get going on mine.
Joe
Thanks guys!
Joe, I hear you on hitting those road-blocks.
For me it's the guides; don't like having to wrap the same design multiple times..;)
Chad
Same here Chad, I'm stuck on what color and pattern to do. Ruth and I have been fishing every chance we get and yard work keeps me away from thinking of rod building. When it gets this time of night....10:30PM I'm ready to hit the sack. I guess it's old age catching up with me, I used to be able to go all night :-\ :-[
Joe