Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn - Vintage => Topic started by: sdlehr on April 07, 2016, 09:40:49 PM

Title: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on April 07, 2016, 09:40:49 PM
Please post your questions about the chronology of these reels in this thread.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 15, 2016, 07:43:02 AM
I thought I would start this thread because I see it sitting with zero comments and these small Long Beach models should really be noticed. They are very special because they are really a hybrid Long Beach. Standard Long Beach 60 & 65 side plates are 3 1/4 inches. The Model 61, 62 & 63 are 3 1/16 inches. The difference is only 3/16 of an inch; but difference gives these small reels a very different feel and when placed side by side, the size difference stands out
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4482/37742171021_4690fbab83_b.jpg)
The reel on the left is a Model 62, the reel on the right is a Model 65. These are early examples of both Long Beach models as can be seen by the hex head hand retaining screw and the Model 65 Patent Pending logo. Interesting to note that the small frame Long Beach models were all marked Patented, No small frame Long Beach was ever labeled Patent Pending, even though the model shared the same era with the Model 60 and 65's.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4467/37693756336_f77de55485_b.jpg)
The difference in spool width is very easy to spot. Reel in the front is the Model 65. Spool widths are dramatically different. The small frame reels were made in 100, 150 and 200 yard version. The shortest production span of the group is the 200 yard version being made in only 1938 and 1939. The 100 and 150 were both introduced in 1935. All the small frame models were discontinued in 1940. So collecting these models is a challenge because of their vintage and low production numbers.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/37742114851_3941d953b3_z.jpg)
Early model Long Beach reels had plain tail plates. In the late 1930's the picture plates were introduced, so your small frame Long Beach models can be found with plain or picture plates.

OK, with this being said, we can now post some photos of small frame Long Beach models from our collections. I find the small frame reels a curiosity of Penn. They are high quality products that did not stand the test of time. Never really figured out why. I guess the small size was their downfall. In today's world of new braided lines, these would probably be very popular reels. There is a very high collector interest in these small models.


Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on August 15, 2016, 10:11:06 AM
How about that? Great info...I didn't know the 61-63 models had smaller plates than the standard models. What was the yardage on the 60?
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 15, 2016, 01:00:58 PM
Mo, the standard Penn formula applies to the Long Beaches. In fact, the formula was started with the Long Beaches. The 60 and 65 are 250- and 300-yards, respectively. The 61, 62 and 63 are 100-, 150-, and 200-yard reels. The 66, 67 and 68 are 300-, 400- and 500-yard reels. So from the 61 to the 68 the Long Beaches had all the distances between 100- and 500-yards covered.

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: foakes on August 15, 2016, 02:50:28 PM
Thanks for starting this, Michael...

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 15, 2016, 03:20:53 PM
QuoteThanks for starting this, Michael...

Glad to. I felt this was a phase of a very important model that was sleeping on the side lines. I have more to add, hopefully I can later today.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 16, 2016, 07:20:27 AM
So. Penn made these strange little Long Beach reels in the 1930's. I call them hybrids because when they were introduced in 1935, there were no other small models. Penn wanted to downsize to cover a different style of fishing. Rather than introduce newly designed models, what Penn did was to shrink every one of their existing models. In 1935 there were only eight Penn model names and every one of those models was offered as a shrunken reel. Across the entire production of these small reels, I do not believe even one of them was a popular reel, that is why by 1939, the production run of all the Long Beach models was done and the rest of the small reels were gone by 1941. What this short run creates for today's collectors is very hard to find examples for their collections.

In terms of the small Long Beach models, they are all hard to find. The 150 yard version is probably the easiest of the three models to find and the 200 yard version is probably the hardest to find.

I like the 200 because it is one of the easiest one to date. Being that it was only made in 1938 and 1939, the catalog gives us a big difference between those model years. The 1938 will have the bell or pear shaped handle knob and the 1939 model will have a Torpedo handle. It is not too often when we can date a Penn reels from the 1930's that easily.

I only have one example of the Penn Long Beach Model 63 in my little collection. I do not have a box for it, only the reel and it is a 1939 model.

It breaks down like any other early Penn; but, do not loose the parts. They are deceiving. They look like normal Penn parts but not all of them interchange so easy with other Penn reels. Some parts are a bit odd and will drive you nuts trying to refit one.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4487/23929072818_c4f62a6a0e_b.jpg)
I have a small diameter Long Beach head plate and cannot find a bridge to fit correctly. These early bridge plates were made for the shrunken reels and I do not believe they interchange with any other Penn reels.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/37072588484_8f53b0f629_z.jpg)
The early Long Beach reels have shorter handle blades than a Penn 60 or 65 Long Beach. The handle for the small reels look stubby and very sturdy. The short handle is using the same size torpedo knob and the same oversized counter weight as the larger Long Beach 60 models.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4501/37072605404_452ddc6829_z.jpg)
You can see the new 1939 logo on this reel. It was used on many other Penn reels as well as the little guys.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4470/37523748090_d5ee68ee08_z.jpg)
The tail plates are no longer plain like the early models. By 1939 they are pictures plates. I doubt if the transition took place in one year like the handles did. I am pretty sure Penn used up stock, so later model small reels may be found with plain tail plates.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4507/37112116453_e351a2d19f_z.jpg)
Penn did install knurled rear upper posts on these reels; but, I have no idea why. The small Long Beach had big gears, with drags that were the same size as the Model 60 and 65. So they had a more than adequate drag system. I think they used the knurled bars just to attract old time fisherman that were accustomed to the thumb stalls.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4449/37112132033_37a974b757_z.jpg)
Here is a really tough to find part. A 200 yard stamped stand. I have no production numbers; but, I am very happy that my stand was not cut or filed because finding a replacement would be a challenge.

Well that's it for the Model 63. These smaller reels make for very interesting talking pieces. The speculation of why Penn made so many different models for such a short time span may never have a satisfactory answer; but, it certainly adds some special interest to a collection of retired Penn Long Beach models.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on August 16, 2016, 01:58:03 PM
Great info!!  8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 04:04:39 PM
I'm finally coming out of the narrow minded ::) daze that has afflicted me since I came into possession of this Long Beach 61.  I'm adding to Michael's comments with some additional observations of my reel.  I wondered if it was similar to any other early Penn and, noticing the plate diameter is the same as a 259, disassembled both for a comparison.  They use the same inner rings, gears, gear sleeve, eccentric, jack and dog.      

Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 16, 2016, 07:20:27 AM

I have a small diameter Long Beach head plate and cannot find a bridge to fit correctly. These early bridge plates were made for the shrunken reels and I do not believe they interchange with any other Penn reels.

I assumed the 61 and 259 use the same bridge.  I will have to disassemble them again to do another comparison.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4479/37733394296_af0b2ae1a0_b.jpg)

The stand is nicely proportioned to fit this reel.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4511/37072794014_295f6a03af_b.jpg)

At 1.423 inches, the 61 is narrower than Penn's petite 180.  I believe this was their narrowest production reel, hence the narrow minded quip.  The handle blade is the same size as a 24-160, but thicker and with a larger knob.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4511/37523888570_8df9a25f30_b.jpg)

I prefer my reels to be narrow and really like this one.  To sum it up in the simplest terms, I think of the 61 as an extremely narrow 259 without the outer beauty rings.

Long Live the Long Beach
George
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 16, 2016, 05:15:23 PM
Quote from: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 04:04:39 PM

I assumed the 61 and 259 use the same bridge.  I will have to disassemble them again to do another comparison.

Long Live the Long Beach
George
I'm thinking that Mike ought to buy you a beer if it turns out that the 259 bridge fits the 61-2-3 head plate... :) I have a 259, but those low-number Long Beaches have thus far eluded me, so I cannot offer to do the test fitting myself....

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on August 16, 2016, 05:15:23 PM
Quote from: George4741 on August 16, 2016, 04:04:39 PM

I assumed the 61 and 259 use the same bridge.  I will have to disassemble them again to do another comparison.

Long Live the Long Beach
George
I'm thinking that Mike ought to buy you a beer if it turns out that the 259 bridge fits the 61-2-3 head plate... :) I have a 259, but those low-number Long Beaches have thus far eluded me, so I cannot offer to do the test fitting myself....

Sid

Well, I'm not going to disassemble my reels again.  I now realize the 259 has a 3-99 bridge (Silverbeach 99) and I'm willing to bet a beer ;) the 61 also uses the same bridge.  The headplates of all three reels are the same diameter anyway.  Problem solved. ;D
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: coastal_dan on August 17, 2016, 01:58:30 AM
George - That 100 yd reel is a beauty!  Love the super narrow reels...just somethin' about them...
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 17, 2016, 06:58:33 AM
Quote
Well, I'm not going to disassemble my reels again.  I now realize the 259 has a 3-99 bridge (Silverbeach 99) and I'm willing to bet a beer Wink the 61 also uses the same bridge.  The headplates of all three reels are the same diameter anyway.  Problem solved. Grin


Posted on: Today at 09:15:23 AM
Posted by: sdlehr  

OK, I played with two head plates today. I have two incomplete small Long Beach reels. The 99 bridge is tight; but, it will work. The 99 jack plate works as does the 99 yoke and yoke springs.  I used a 99 main gear that fits OK. The trim rings from a 259 fit the hole pattern; but, the bent over flange is too short on the Long Beach, causing a gap all the way around the plate in the under cut rim of the plate.
             Now, with all this, I cannot get the 150 yard spool I have to fit the 99 pinion gear. The spool shaft has a shoulder on it which will not allow it to completely engage the pinion gear. Possibly I have the wrong spool; but, it does fit the frame of the reel perfectly. At this time all the 99 parts are basically fitting except the pinion gear. The 99 pinion gear would work in the 100 and 200 yard models; but, the 150 is giving me grief.

More to come after the Xanax kicks in.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 18, 2016, 02:59:48 AM
Michael, I decided to disassemble my 61 and 259 again to confirm what I thought.  Since you have some interchangeability problems with parts on your reels it was doubly important I get it right.  So, I swapped all of the parts between the head plates and everything is interchangeable and functions smoothly, including the pinion gear and spool engagement.

Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 17, 2016, 06:58:33 AM
The trim rings from a 259 fit the hole pattern; but, the bent over flange is too short on the Long Beach, causing a gap all the way around the plate in the under cut rim of the plate.
This is also true on my 61.  I wonder if the early Senator 1/0 rings will fit on a 61, 62 and 63 Long Beach without a gap?

Quote from: coastal_dan on August 17, 2016, 01:58:30 AM
George - That 100 yd reel is a beauty!  Love the super narrow reels...just somethin' about them...

Thank you, Dan.  I consider myself very fortunate to have this one.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 18, 2016, 05:43:45 AM
QuoteMichael, I decided to disassemble my 61 and 259 again to confirm what I thought.  Since you have some interchangeability problems with parts on your reels it was doubly important I get it right.  So, I swapped all of the parts between the head plates and everything is interchangeable and functions smoothly, including the pinion gear and spool engagement.


Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 16, 2016, 10:58:33 PM

The trim rings from a 259 fit the hole pattern; but, the bent over flange is too short on the Long Beach, causing a gap all the way around the plate in the under cut rim of the plate.

 
This is also true on my 61.  I wonder if the early Senator 1/0 rings will fit on a 61, 62 and 63 Long Beach without a gap?
I am having an issue with my 150--Model 62. I have one in the box that I may have to take down to see if the spool that is causing my problem is the same in the reel I know is original. Will get back with that info when time allows.

I do not have a Senator 1/0 at this time. So I cannot verify the ring fit. At least we know the 259 ring is not right.

Thanks for taking the time to verify the interchanges. You have helped me with this info.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 19, 2016, 11:17:03 AM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 18, 2016, 05:43:45 AM

Thanks for taking the time to verify the interchanges. You have helped me with this info.

You are welcome,
George
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 06:47:59 AM
I got back into the Model 62 Long Beach. Basically what I have are a bunch of parts. I have two small Long Beach head plates and one tail plate. I have the correct trim rings for all these plates and now, Thanks to George4741, I now know that the internals from a Penn 99 will work in these reels. Except for the spool. In my bunch of parts is a spool that I thought was the perfect spool for this reel. Unfortunately, after the conversations we have had here and me looking deeper into what I thought was a generally non-interchangeable bunch of parts, I have made a discovery that is working against me. First thing I did was go into my collection for a known, original Model 62 Long Beach.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4482/37484510140_1d27387b2d_b.jpg)
This reel is correct. It is an early model reel that may or may not be in an original box. I believe these boxes are original to the early versions of the small frame reels. I do not believe the small frame reels were put into the old style boxes; but, of course, I will not swear to it because every time I figure what I am saying about Penn is 100% right, someone pulls something out of their closet to refute me. But I know this reel is early and correct. So we might as well talk about the Model 62 because I do not believe anyone has put one into the thread yet and here is where it belongs.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4504/37484524580_c00ebe746a_z.jpg)
The early versions of the small frame reels were interesting because they used old parts like the hex head handle screw and the wood bell shaped handle knob; but, in the early double bar logo, they were presented as Patented, not Patent Pending as their larger version were.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4454/37742660441_7e6719af3a_b.jpg)
Early small frame reels had plain tail plates and used a waffle cut clicker button. The bottom of the stand is also plain. Line capacity numberings did not show up until around 1937 or 38.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4497/37742747611_1bc847b27d_b.jpg)
Now, about what has been driving me crazy for awhile. I want to put another Model 62 together. I thought I had all the parts when I started. Here is the spare spool I have that came with the parts.


The spool I have is the same width as the Model 62 spool which I removed from my known original reel. But, as you can see, the head plate side of the spool has a different shaft set up. This is what caused my problem.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4465/37710930992_12e7646144_z.jpg)
Even though this spool is the same width as my Model 62 and the exact same diameter and it perfectly fits the Model 62 tail plate, it will not work because of the pinion gear engagement problem and the fact that the shaft is too short.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4499/37694454206_942e9c1762_z.jpg)
So now, I have assembled my original Model 62 and put it aside for future servicing and I am left with this useless spool.

I have one other question that I am still wondering about. Since this spool does not fit my Model 62, what reel does it fit?

Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Superhook on August 20, 2016, 11:44:10 AM
Mike,

The spool probably comes from a 150 yard reel that does not have a drag or a normal Free Spool Lever which moves the pinion gear on the spool shaft .

Possibly a Newport which relies on pulling out the handle for free spool. As it has a line post and not a drilled hole that dismisses most of the little pre '39 reels.

Ray
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 06:36:45 PM
QuoteThe spool probably comes from a 150 yard reel that does not have a drag or a normal Free Spool Lever which moves the pinion gear on the spool shaft .

You could be right. I will check that later. Thanks for the next clue. Oh wait!! I do not have a 150 Newport or a 100 yard version. Artie did; but, he passed.....<:O(---Do you have a small 150 Newport? They are kind of rare.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 08:49:55 PM
The worm turns!       So far I believe the type shaft on my incorrect spool is the same type shaft used on a Penn Delmar, Penn 85 or a Penn Long Beach 60 or 65. The travel of the pinion gear on the mentioned reels is not on the spool shaft, it is on the long spool bearings. so, the incorrect spool I pictured is the perfect width and diameter for a Penn Model 62 and the perfect shaft style for a Model 285, 85, 60 & 65. So now I am stumped again. I know the spool I have is incorrect for my Model 62 and that also makes me doubt other aspects of what I am trying to figure out. My Model 62 investigation continues until the next post.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 11:10:50 PM
I want to show what I have and what started my quest into the interchangeability or lack there of concerning the small frame reels.

I have two incomplete Long Beach 62's.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/37748144122_19072845fd_z.jpg)
They are both from different ends of the production run, have different handles and different logos,

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4479/37109955553_6e345eed4c_b.jpg)
This is the first early production run logo.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/37731281646_aa168e6b94_b.jpg)
and this is the logo used at the end of the production run in the late 1930's.

Even though these reels have differences, the are basically the same reels at their heart. The size, internals and all other physical aspects are basically the same throughout the entire production run.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4445/37110003303_4939c5aa04_z.jpg)
With that said, I expected to have no problem finding the parts to put these two reels back together. Admittedly, the reel on the right is only a head plate. So I never really expected to find a tail plate and all the internals. When I got both of these reels, they had no internals. The discussion here revealed the internals of these Long Beach models are mostly borrowed from the Penn Silver Beach. At the time in history we are talking about, the Silver Beach was made in two versions, The Model 98 and the Model 97. The internal parts for these Long Beach models are taken from the Silver Beach Model 97 (after the war, the Model 97 became the Model 99 and the Model 98 disappeared into history).
                I had enough Model 99 parts on hand to complete the two head plates, so now I have one complete head plate and one complete reel minus a spool. When I started this little project, I did not expect the biggest, unsolvable problem to be the spool. A spool came with these parts, unfortunately, the perfectly sized spool is wrong.
                This caused a kink in my assembly process. Since I had a incorrect spool, how was I going to know what the correct pinion gear was that belonged in this reel. We have already determined that the internal parts from a Penn 99 will work in this reel.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4478/37110100943_4fc19a1818_z.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4503/23927146308_6dd58c00b6_z.jpg)
                After building both head plates with Penn 99 internals, there is no doubt to their fit; but, the pinion gear is not a Penn 99 pinion gear. A Penn 99 matched the shaft size of a Penn 259, 500, 140, 200, which is too large to be used in my known original example of this reel, consequently, the Penn 99 pinion gear is no good for this installation. I had to take out a bunch of spools and try to find one that works.
                I was able to match a shaft size that will work; but, I cannot find a spool in the correct width or diameter with that size for my Model 62's. The shaft size that fits the original Model 62 in collection is used on many Penn reels, Namely, the Models 155, 160, 165, 180, 185, 209, 25, 26 & 27. Possible there are more that I may have missed. So I built my head plates with 99 internals and a 155 pinion.
                I now know my reels are correctly assembled; but, still missing spools. One correct spool would enable to complete one reel. Of course the internals will never be historically correct because they are from later model reels; but, at least they are mechanically correct.
                Now, all I need to do is find a spool with a Model 155 shaft that is 1 11/16 inches wide with a flange diameter of 2 3/8 inches. Then my one reel can be whole again. :(  
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 21, 2016, 01:45:55 AM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 06:47:59 AM

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4465/37710930992_12e7646144_z.jpg)
Even though this spool is the same width as my Model 62 and the exact same diameter and it perfectly fits the Model 62 tail plate, it will not work because of the pinion gear engagement problem and the fact that the shaft is too short.

I have one other question that I am still wondering about. Since this spool does not fit my Model 62, what reel does it fit?


It fits a 78 Sea Scamp ??? ???
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: foakes on August 21, 2016, 05:30:42 AM
This might work, Michael --

1 21/32" width

2 3/8" diameter

11/64" pinion end

1/8" pinion end where bearing goes

This pinion end is slightly larger than the 209 shown -- 11/64" compared to 5/32" on the 209.

However, end and length are the same.

It was in the bin, and it is not numbered --

If you think it will work -- you are welcome to it -- I will send it your way (George may know) --

It appears possibly unused -- looks like it just fell out of the box years ago.

Please advise --

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 21, 2016, 06:05:14 AM
QuoteIf you think it will work -- you are welcome to it -- I will send it your way (George may know) --

I really wish I could say yes; but, it is one size off. It seems the size of the spool is correct as is the bearing size; but the pinion in the Model 62 is a Number 13-155 and takes a 5/32 inch shaft. The 11/64 spool shaft is the size for a Squidder or a Surfmaster.

Please save that spool for another needy guy, it is a great part. That spool you have is a very hard to find part. It would work perfectly in a 150 Coronado---Model 92 or the super rare Ocean Side---Model 82. Thank you very much for the offer.

QuoteIt fits a 78 Sea Scamp

Here the spool looks like it fits the Sea Scamp; but, again, it is strange because the Sea Scamp was made for over 20 years; but, never had anything but a plastic spool. So the spool I need seems to be unique to the Model 62 or any of the other small 150 yard reels made in the 1930 except for the Coronado or Ocean Side. Those have the spool that Fred has.

Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 21, 2016, 04:46:16 PM
Two different spool shafts for what is basically the same reel? ??? ???
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 22, 2016, 06:43:02 AM
QuoteTwo different spool shafts for what is basically the same reel?

Yes, it surprised me also. I have many of these small frame reels. The 150 yard versions all are the same spool diameter and width; but they all do not have the same pinion shaft diameter. My small frame Coronado has a 11/64 shaft, as an Ocean Side model would more than likely share.

I pulled the spool from a 150 yard Bayside--Model 52 and it uses the same spool as the Long Beach 150 yard reel. All the small frame reels share the same spool bearing; but, not the pinion shaft. That does not make sense; but, I double checked it and that is how Penn built the ones I have opened so far.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 22, 2016, 03:12:41 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on August 22, 2016, 11:19:25 AM
Mike: I recently refurbished a Long Beach 65 and it has a spool that is plastic or Bakelite, you mentioned that the spool you have fits a assortment of reels including the 65 in chrome. Did the 65 come with chrome and Plastic spools?

Joe    
Joe, when the US was about to enter WWII the US government controlled metal distribution for the war effort. During those years of WWII many Penn reels that had previously come with only metal spools were introduced with plastic spools. The metal spools could be purchased for an additional $1. After the war those reels whose spools were replaced with plastic could once again be found with standard metal spools. So while most of the time the Long Beaches came with metal spools, there were some years plastic was more common, and there were also plastic spools from other reels that would fit the Long Beach 65, so you could actually have a spool on that reel that didn't leave the factory with it.

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: RowdyW on August 22, 2016, 04:05:17 PM
And if you want to put in an aluminum spool in your 65  get a Seaboy 190 spool 1992 & newer. A perfect fit.     Rudy
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 22, 2016, 04:06:53 PM
QuoteMike: I recently refurbished a Long Beach 65 and it has a spool that is plastic or Bakelite, you mentioned that the spool you have fits a assortment of reels including the 65 in chrome. Did the 65 come with chrome and Plastic spools?

Joe    

Joe, when the US was about to enter WWII the US government controlled metal distribution for the war effort. During those years of WWII many Penn reels that had previously come with only metal spools were introduced with plastic spools. The metal spools could be purchased for an additional $1. After the war those reels whose spools were replaced with plastic could once again be found with standard metal spools. So while most of the time the Long Beaches came with metal spools, there were some years plastic was more common, and there were also plastic spools from other reels that would fit the Long Beach 65, so you could actually have a spool on that reel that didn't leave the factory with it.

Sid is correct, the war affected the availability of copper and copper alloys dramatically. The Long Beach models were documented as L.S. models (lightweight spool). I believe L.S. models were available before and probably shortly after the war. For the most part, the Penn Long Beach was a reel that was only offered with a metal spool. The years around the war are the only exception for that model, so if you have a Long Beach with a plastic spool it should be a mid 1940's build style only, otherwise, the spool was changed by someone other than Penn.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on August 22, 2016, 05:55:16 PM
   I would like to point out that Penn gave us a good hint as to which years the LB 60 & 65 had plastic spools as a standard component and offered metal for an additional cost.

  In my opinion the 60 & 65 switched over to plastic spools sometime in 1941 and did not transition back to metal spool on the 60 & 65 until 1949.

  It took a few years of recovery before small companys like Penn could obtain all the metals needed to make their products after WWII. Penns plastic spool had a much larger arbor than the metal spool and that reduced line capacity. Penn hesitated to reduce the listed yardage on the L.S. models made prior to the war, but after the war they came clean and relisted the LB60 yardage as 200 and the LB65 as 250 yds, because of the large arbor on those plastic spools. Let me remind everyone that the LB60 was always listed as a 250yd reel and 65 as a 300yd reel. The reduction of yardage in the catalogs just after the war reflected the smaller capacity from the large arbor plastic spool.... By referencing the Penn Model years in mikes book(back section), one can conclude that Penn put plastic spools on the 60 & 65 thru 1948, and offered metal spool for additional cost. Then in 1949 the 60 & 65 returned to metal spool and went back to being 250 & 300 yard reels and plastic was no longer an option on the long beach.

 The boxes from these years(46,47,48) also show that Penn wasn't proud of their plastic spools..... those boxes did not say anything in reference to the plastic spool except less line capacity than before, but in 1949 when they switched back to metal spool they proudly printed it in big letters across the front of the box.


Sorry for the run on sentence, just trying to explain my reasoning and experiences with the long beach.

 Ted

 
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: foakes on August 22, 2016, 07:50:12 PM
Right, Joe --

1943 Steel Cents...

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 22, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
Quote from: Maxed Out on August 22, 2016, 05:55:16 PM
   I would like to point out that Penn gave us a good hint as to which years the LB 60 & 65 had plastic spools as a standard component and offered metal for an additional cost.

   In my opinion the 60 & 65 switched over to plastic spools sometime in 1941 and did not transition back to metal spool on the 60 & 65 until 1949.

   It took a few years of recovery before small companys like Penn could obtain all the metals needed to make their products after WWII. Penns plastic spool had a much larger arbor than the metal spool and that reduced line capacity. Penn hesitated to reduce the listed yardage on the L.S. models made prior to the war, but after the war they came clean and relisted the LB60 yardage as 200 and the LB65 as 250 yds, because of the large arbor on those plastic spools. Let me remind everyone that the LB60 was always listed as a 250yd reel and 65 as a 300yd reel. The reduction of yardage in the catalogs just after the war reflected the smaller capacity from the large arbor plastic spool.... By referencing the Penn Model years in mikes book(back section), one can conclude that Penn put plastic spools on the 60 & 65 thru 1948, and offered metal spool for additional cost. Then in 1949 the 60 & 65 returned to metal spool and went back to being 250 & 300 yard reels and plastic was no longer an option on the long beach.

  The boxes from these years(46,47,48) also show that Penn wasn't proud of their plastic spools..... those boxes did not say anything in reference to the plastic spool except less line capacity than before, but in 1949 when they switched back to metal spool they proudly printed it in big letters across the front of the box.


Sorry for the run on sentence, just trying to explain my reasoning and experiences with the long beach.

  Ted

 
Well said, Ted. The only other pieced of missing information is that in order for the plastic spools to be strong enough it was necessary that Penn increase the circumference of the arbor. A plastic spool with an arbor as large around as the arbor of a metal spool would have been worthless.... so it was the switch to plastic that required an increase in the dimension of the arbor so that the plastic spool would have at least a chance of performing well; I'm sure there are some broken plastic spool tales out there even with the larger diameter arbor....

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on August 22, 2016, 09:57:03 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on August 22, 2016, 09:55:44 PM
The Plastic spool seams to be in two halves with a 1/32" hole in the center.

Joe

that is correct Joe

  Ted
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on August 23, 2016, 04:55:51 AM
Very good history Ted!
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 23, 2016, 05:39:15 AM
Quote from: sdlehr on August 22, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
I'm sure there are some broken plastic spool tales out there even with the larger diameter arbor....

Sid

At least one.::)  Here is what I found when I removed the line from this Long Beach 60.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 23, 2016, 02:43:27 PM
George, it looks like that spool exploded when wet mono was wound under tension and then allowed to dry. This was the downfall of the plastic spool and even the original 3-piece metal spools. Penn would later recommend that linen line be washed, dried and re-spooled after each use - because wet linen broke down and lost strength (it rotted). The one-piece spool design strengthened the spool and kept it from blowing up under heavy load, but the linen line still decomposed just as quickly. Mono line and one-piece spool construction fixed both problems.

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 23, 2016, 03:39:15 PM
Sid, I bought the reel with braid on the spool.  It turned with great difficulty and when I removed the line this is what I found.  The braid was wound loosely on the spool which makes me wonder if someone was hiding something....
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 23, 2016, 03:58:23 PM
I hear you, George, but if we assume the braid was once wound on tightly and then the spool flange separated, the spool then would be very tight and hard to turn and at the same time the line would loosen up around the spool as the spool took up additional area after it broke, and that would make the line appear to have been wrapped more loosely. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the idea that the seller knew the spool was broken.

If this is a shelfie some super glue may make a good restoration, then just wind the murderous line back on and you're good to go for a great display for a few centuries; Good luck finding a replacement spool if that's the way you decide to go.

Too bad it's totally worthless as it it  ::); I'll take it off your hands for a small fee and you'll have less to worry your life.


Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 23, 2016, 04:10:40 PM
Maybe I was too hasty with my accusation. ::)

Yes, it is a shelfie and I am considering gluing the spool together. 

As far as worries go, if you can persuade a petty bureaucrat to get off my back, that would go a long way in lessening the worries in my life. ;D

Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 23, 2016, 05:31:19 PM
Quote from: George4741 on August 23, 2016, 04:10:40 PM
Maybe I was too hasty with my accusation. ::)

Yes, it is a shelfie and I am considering gluing the spool together.  

As far as worries go, if you can persuade a petty bureaucrat to get off my back, that would go a long way in lessening the worries in my life. ;D


So let me get this straight, you are soliciting me to break some knees in exchange for this reel. Does that sum it up? ;) Accepted. Dominick? What would your cousin Bruno charge to do a side job for an old Jersey boy? :) :)

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Dominick on August 23, 2016, 10:40:47 PM
he'd do it for a Long Beach in good cosmetic condition.  ;)  Dominick
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on August 23, 2016, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: Dominick on August 23, 2016, 10:40:47 PM
he'd do it for a Long Beach in good cosmetic condition.  ;)  Dominick
OK then, you should put him in touch with George. I was looking for a little something in it for me :)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on August 23, 2016, 11:28:49 PM
You guys slay me! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Dominick on August 23, 2016, 11:30:35 PM
Quote from: sdlehr on August 23, 2016, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: Dominick on August 23, 2016, 10:40:47 PM
he'd do it for a Long Beach in good cosmetic condition.  ;)  Dominick
OK then, you should put him in touch with George. I was looking for a little something in it for me :)
You get respect otherwise fugedaboutit.  Dominick
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on September 17, 2016, 04:12:30 PM
I was wondering what are the widths of the LB62 and 63?  I want to know how they compare to the LB61.  If Michael or anyone else can measure the pillars I would be very grateful.   
George
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on September 17, 2016, 11:42:00 PM
Model 62----------1 9/16"

Model 63----------1 13/16" Light
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on September 18, 2016, 08:17:23 PM
Michael, thank you for the info.  BTW could you use a 501 spool and 99 pinion gear to make a functioning, LB62?
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on September 19, 2016, 02:31:10 AM
QuoteBTW could you use a 501 spool and 99 pinion gear to make a functioning, LB62?

Will not answer that. I have never tried it. Possibly; but, even if the spool fits, it will be obviously incorrect with the raised line pin and parts numbers showing. If it fit, fill it with linen line until you can find a correct one.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on September 19, 2016, 02:46:54 AM
I was going to say it might be the same dimensionally, and functionally, but it won't be a LB62.

Sid
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on October 11, 2017, 08:07:48 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on August 20, 2016, 06:47:59 AM
First thing I did was go into my collection for a known, original Model 62 Long Beach.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4499/37694454206_942e9c1762_z.jpg)
This reel is correct. It is an early model reel that may or may not be in an original box. I believe these boxes are original to the early versions of the small frame reels. I do not believe the small frame reels were put into the old style boxes; but, of course, I will not swear to it because every time I figure what I am saying about Penn is 100% right, someone pulls something out of their closet to refute me.

Mike,
What did you mean when you said the above about the small frame reel boxes? What is the old style box you are referring to?
Sorry to ask, its just that not being able to see the photobucket pics anymore makes the thread hard to follow.

-Chris

I replaced the pic Chris. I think this is the right one.
Daron
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 15, 2017, 04:23:50 PM
QuoteWhat did you mean when you said the above about the small frame reel boxes? What is the old style box you are referring to?
Sorry to ask, its just that not being able to see the photobucket pics anymore makes the thread hard to follow.

I have not had the time to find a new way to post pics here. I have no faith in the hosting sites anymore.

Glad you emailed me. You find of the old style box for the Model 62 is super rare. Patiently waiting for your pictures.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on October 15, 2017, 07:33:17 PM
Thanks Mike. Should be delivered tomorrow. I will email you pictures tomorrow night and post here for all to see
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 16, 2017, 05:37:46 AM
QuoteThanks Mike. Should be delivered tomorrow. I will email you pictures tomorrow night and post here for all to see

Thank you!!
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: broadway on October 17, 2017, 01:18:37 PM
All I gotta say is the collector that you're buying these from had one hell of a rare collection.
That's the only 62 box I've ever seen and boy what a cool box it is.
I would buy the entire collection of I were you.
Thanks for sharing
Dom
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on October 17, 2017, 01:29:33 PM
Well here she is. Unfortunately someone decided to "clean" the reel at some point. I would like to find replacement parts to clean it up, but I'm afraid the handle, spool, and stand will be near impossible, so I'd rather have an original condition reel than a half and half, so I'll leave it alone. The box is in fantastic shape.
I'm not buying these reels from any collector. But I'm also not telling you how I've been finding them. ;)

(http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44882)

(http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44890)

(http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44922&d=1508247400)

(http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44906&d=1508247315)

(http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44914&d=1508247354)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on October 17, 2017, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on October 15, 2017, 04:23:50 PM
I have not had the time to find a new way to post pics here. I have no faith in the hosting sites anymore.

   Why not just use the "additional options" feature? You'll be posting pics directly from your 'puter's files...no host needed! 8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on October 17, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: mo65 on October 17, 2017, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on October 15, 2017, 04:23:50 PM
I have not had the time to find a new way to post pics here. I have no faith in the hosting sites anymore.

  Why not just use the "additional options" feature? You'll be posting pics directly from your 'puter's files...no host needed! 8)

Well gosh darn!!  Thanks Mo!!!
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on October 17, 2017, 05:18:58 PM

Nice find Chris. FYI, the box is worth much more than the reel.

Ted
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: broadway on October 17, 2017, 07:23:19 PM
There must be a special website that Otto is hosting just for you.
Have no fear I'm not looking to find your source... I wouldn't tell you either.
Nice finds and always fun to see something I wouldn't have otherwise.
Dom
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 18, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
OK, I am trying this Additional Options trick.


Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on October 18, 2017, 02:03:20 PM
   Bravo...looks great Mike. 8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 18, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
QuoteWhy not just use the "additional options" feature? You'll be posting pics directly from your 'puter's files...no host needed!

Thank you Mo.................!!! That is just what I wanted. I was not aware of that feature. Spend most of my life not looking too far past the end of my nose........................<:O(

And Daron, Thank you very much for bringing back some of my photos. I can do a Wing Repair on a F4--Phantom, but, this computer stuff throws me.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: broadway on October 18, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
Hell of a package, Mike!  100 yd Newport in the box with the catalog! Good luck finding another one of those...and in that condition none the less.
A true beauty and is actually making me drool, is that normal?
Thanks for showing,
Dom
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Shark Hunter on October 18, 2017, 08:09:04 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on October 18, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
QuoteWhy not just use the "additional options" feature? You'll be posting pics directly from your 'puter's files...no host needed!

Thank you Mo.................!!! That is just what I wanted. I was not aware of that feature. Spend most of my life not looking too far past the end of my nose........................<:O(

And Daron, Thank you very much for bringing back some of my photos. I can do a Wing Repair on a F4--Phantom, but, this computer stuff throws me.

No Problem Mike.
I have all of them fixed now on this thread with no plug ins needed. ;)
Yours and all others.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 19, 2017, 02:00:09 AM
QuoteNo Problem Mike.
I have all of them fixed now on this thread with no plug ins needed. Wink
Yours and all others.

Daron, you are the BEST!
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 19, 2017, 02:13:41 AM
QuoteHell of a package, Mike!  100 yd Newport in the box with the catalog! Good luck finding another one of those...and in that condition none the less.
A true beauty and is actually making me drool, is that normal?
Thanks for showing,
Dom

I wondered if anyone would notice this package and yes, drooling is acceptable in this case. This is not mine, I am happy to have a photo of it. One of the most rare packages in Penn collecting and the catalog is wrong but the reel and box are correct. The only documentation of a 100 yard Newport is in the second edition of the 1937 catalog. So, according to the catalogs, the 100 yard Newport had about six months of catalog / production time. This particular package sort of suggests that the reel and box were around for longer than that; but, still very rare. This box, reel and catalog package is the only one I have ever seen.

I suspect most Penn collectors do not know how rare the 100 yard New Port is. I have seen two other 100 yard New Port models without boxes. They are out there somewhere :)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Oceanreels on October 19, 2017, 02:06:08 PM
Here are close up photos of that box and reel. As Mike said they are rare. The catalog that came with it is from 1935. The 100 yard Newport was only cataloged, as Mike said, for the second half of 1937. Was it around longer, who knows? The handle screw did not show up till 1936. We all know how rare 1937 paper is. Did Penn just put whatever paper they had with the reel? I have another 100 yard Newport that is a little different than this one, it has 100 YDS. on the foot, this one does not. It also has the lock screw for the handle screw.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 19, 2017, 04:07:12 PM
QuoteHere are close up photos of that box and reel. As Mike said they are rare. The catalog that came with it is from 1935. The 100 yard Newport was only cataloged, as Mike said, for the second half of 1937. Was it around longer, who knows? The handle screw did not show up till 1936. We all know how rare 1937 paper is. Did Penn just put whatever paper they had with the reel? I have another 100 yard Newport that is a little different than this one, it has 100 YDS. on the foot, this one does not. It also has the lock screw for the handle screw.

Hello Brian,

I kinda thought it was your reel. If we consider what it takes for Penn to make a 150 yard reel into a 100 yard reel, it is easy to understand why strict production numbers are mostly impossible to know. In 1935, Penn could have used the 100 yard Sea Ford spool, bars and stand to create a 100 yard New Port. The 100 yard New Port is one of those reels that could have been made for many years without catalog documentation. I feel your reel with the 1935 catalog is a true survivor, telling us that Penn simply created a model for the market without considering documenting it.

As a matter of fact, the true feeling of the owners of Penn that came down through the generations of the family is that the collectability of their products was the last thing in their mind. They were making tools to catch fish with, we, modern collectors, have turned their tools into collector items.......... :) The Penn family is seriously and pleasantly surprised that their products have a modern day interest to collectors.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: George4741 on October 20, 2017, 03:08:02 AM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on October 18, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
I can do a Wing Repair on a F4--Phantom, but, this computer stuff throws me.

Hmmm....Mike, you brought back memories from my distant past.  Are/were you a 431 or worked at the Ogden Depot? 

And those Newports and boxes, very nice.  Thanks for the photos.
George
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 21, 2017, 06:24:38 AM
QuoteI can do a Wing Repair on a F4--Phantom, but, this computer stuff throws me.


Hmmm....Mike, you brought back memories from my distant past.  Are/were you a 431 or worked at the Ogden Depot? 

No, I was a USAF Cold War Vet, stationed in Northern Germany during the Viet Nam War, a lucky GI. Was on a Army / Air Force base in the mountains. We had 110 bomb proof hangars spread all over the mountain. Each hangar had its own personal F4 in ready, ready to start up in the hangar and blast right out in case of Armageddon or WW III. Many were equipped with TV Bombs, could fly the bomb right into your window. Really High Tech for 1972, today they are museum pieces.....
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on November 27, 2018, 04:08:22 AM
Hi Guys,
           Still cleaning up my King Fisher, BUT, next Cab off the ranks,
    Is this Long Beach, Has a blank tail plate,  But, a bold in Ya face red handle !!!!
It's not in to bad a condition, should clean up presentably with a bit of luck.
Just off my research, being a 150 yrder, that would place it between 35-40 ????? 
And this is pre Mike's book,    on a side note, may have latched on to one, cross fingers.
I Luv these reels !!!

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on November 27, 2018, 04:11:11 AM
 Look in Mike's book....the long beach 61 & 62 are the small yardage versions like yours. Great find !!

Ted
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on November 27, 2018, 04:46:46 AM
Thanks Ted,
               Yep, I'm going blind with these reels at the minute, the Book is proving illusive to find !!
       But I may now be on the trail of one.
      I can see how helpful the book will end up being.


Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on November 27, 2018, 04:23:21 PM
   I love those smaller plate LBs...and that red pear shaped handle is not an every day item...bravo! 8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: sdlehr on November 28, 2018, 01:33:31 AM
Quote from: Maxed Out on November 27, 2018, 04:11:11 AM
Look in Mike's book....the long beach 61 & 62 are the small yardage versions like yours. Great find !!

Ted
Yes. The 60 was the 250-yd model, the 65 was the 300-yd model, which makes the 63 the 200-yard model, the 62 the 150-yd model and the 61 the 100-yd model if I'm not mistaken.

Col, you're killin' it!

Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 01, 2018, 06:07:30 AM
Finished cleaning my LB 62. It had a very quick soak, then a gentle tooth brushing. There was some green gunge imbedded
in the spool and rings, which I new had to be removed.
I've come to the conclusion seeing some of the restore threads on here, that I only clean my reels !!! hats off to some of the
beautiful restore jobs I've seen here......
Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 06, 2018, 03:36:38 AM
QuoteI love those smaller plate LBs...and that red pear shaped handle is not an every day item...bravo! Cool

There is another level of rarity concerning your reel. Having the small side plate Long Beach is very special ; but, the red handle adds another dimension. Red Handle Penn reels from the 1930's and 40's pre-war were special order models sold exclusively by Duvall's Tackle in California.

The Duvall's Shop even had specially stamped Penn catalogs....

This info is not in my book. It was discovered after the release of the book.

Sorry for the low res pics. That's all I have.

You Model 62 Duvall / Long Beach is a very rare reel.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 06, 2018, 10:18:17 AM
Hi Michael,
   WOW, thank you for that information, obviously I would never have known this.
  I'm still searching for your book, as mentioned, missed out on one on Ebay the other day, So I am noting everything down and scouring this forum
most days to the wee hours.
I am completely blown away by the history of Penn reels, and the more you research and learn, the more intriguing collecting them becomes.
The above reel, has quite a bit of Patina and on the tail plate, the tensioner housing has a piece ot of it if you look closely, but in all honesty, it doesn't worry me one bit, after all, after 80 years of history, I suppose some of these pre war reels will have damage and wear.
Michael, thank you for the info on the reel, duly noted down now for reference.

regards
Colin
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on December 06, 2018, 02:06:51 PM
I was hoping yours had the Duvall's sticker like my live bait caster and 12/0.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 06, 2018, 09:15:43 PM
Hi Chris, No, mine didn't have the sticker like yours.
        That's a nice reel, Gee, if it's just a sticker, it's amazing after all these years it survived, with the treatment a lot of
these reels got.
It sure does open up a whole new avenue of collecting now, as if there wasn't enough variables, now, Duvall options added !
It's the hobbie that just keeps giving.
I was reading old threads the other night from around 2005, it was an interesting read. I think Michael was asking the question about 3 post
Sea Fords, whether they existed and could be classified as first generation, of which it was doubted. So alot has come to light in the last 13 odd years,
I wonder what other surprises Penn reels brings in another.........

So, being these reels were produced for Duvall, does this classify them as trade reels ???
Even though they have the Penn plug ?

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 07, 2018, 03:32:15 AM
QuoteSo, being these reels were produced for Duvall, does this classify them as trade reels Huh?
Even though they have the Penn plug ?

Not in my opinion. A pure trade reel has no Penn markings. These Duvall reels are simply using a distinct color handle. Sort of like ordering a Penn 85 with different color plates. Changing a color does not remove the Penn identity.

But, in terms of the reel I am using for a Duvall example, it is a Trade reel because it has the red knob, A Duvall sticker and a Kingfisher logo. I really wish I owned this reel; but, I do not. I feel lucky to have documentation of it.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 07, 2018, 04:53:25 AM
OK, understood Michael.
That handle on your photo is of a different design or shape as well, compared to my one.
So, this all just equates to more catagories Michael, but I suppose, with the one you showed, it contains three variables,
The Duvall sticker, the kingfisher label and the red handle,  very interesting.

And Chris, Can you show a Photo of the handles on your two Duvall sticker reels ?.

Thank's Michael, I know what to look out for now.............

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 07, 2018, 06:52:38 PM
QuoteThank's Michael, I know what to look out for now.............

What I look out for is things that fit, but, do not add up to a normal reel. Whether it be a Duvall or Schultz or whatever. when is professionally built but does not fit the norm, that opens up a possibility of a new direction.

This is what makes collecting fun.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on December 07, 2018, 09:20:50 PM
I have a handle i got in a box of parts that I always wondered where it came from until I discovered the Duvalls reels. Too bad its not very clean.

Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: 1badf350 on December 07, 2018, 09:23:04 PM
Col my reels have the Duvalls sticker but they dont have red handles. Here is a handle side pic of both.


Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Deepennz on December 07, 2018, 09:24:10 PM
Hi,
If these red handled, Duvall reels are not strictly trade reels, then does that disqualify the NYHTC line of reels - reels made for one retailer, still with a Penn logo, and yet with an obvious point of difference?
What is the definition of a "Trade reel"?
I have a  1938 LB 66 with a red handle as shown and when I read about the 'Duvalls" I moved it to my 'Trade reel' section. Should I put it back?
It looked good in the 'tradie' section!!


Cheers
Martin
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Swami805 on December 07, 2018, 11:09:33 PM
Maybe like a hybred semi trade reel. The handle seems more like a factory upgrade than a true trade reel, splitting hairs a little. Whatever it is it certianly adds interest to an already nice collectible reel, check a box in the win coloum any way you slice it.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 08, 2018, 02:08:58 AM
Chris, that's a different twist then,  Do you think someone swapped the handles out from what Duvall got ( red handles )
Or it's just another variable ?  they maybe sold other options ?
Either way, nice reels and a plus for the Duvall sticker any how.

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Dominick on December 08, 2018, 03:09:24 AM
Quote from: milne on December 06, 2018, 10:18:17 AM
Hi Michael,
   WOW, thank you for that information, obviously I would never have known this.
  I'm still searching for your book, as mentioned, missed out on one on Ebay the other day, So I am noting everything down and scouring this forum most days to the wee hours.
regards
Colin

Colin, after I read this post I went to Amazon.com to see if one was available.  There were 2 available for $250.00 a piece.  I don't know if that will make Mike happy or not.  Dominick
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: oc1 on December 08, 2018, 05:54:30 AM
It's a very valuable resource, but you could get mine for much less.  No offense Mike.  You're just too good at it.
-steve
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 08, 2018, 06:33:38 AM
Hi Dominick,  I saw them for sale and nearly coughed in my rompers !.....$250 !!!   But, then again, with the info in it......
  I'm actually joining ORCA and seeing if they have it in their shop library, just been to busy the last week or so to get on with it.
By the looks, there are a few books that look like "must gets" that Michael has produced, so I'll get on with that and try my luck their.

I was right annoyed I slept in with the one I missed on Ebay, that went for around $50, so I would have been in on that if I didn't miss it.

I have to admit though, here on this forum, a lot of the information is here, but it sure would be way easier to have it in one book to refer too.
So far I haven't made any "clunker purchases",,, more luck than management I must admit.

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 08, 2018, 07:16:07 PM
QuoteHi Dominick,  I saw them for sale and nearly coughed in my rompers !.....$250 !!!   But, then again, with the info in it......

A few years ago I bought 100 soft covers and barely got my money back. Wound up selling at 40.00 a copy on EBay. That was my cost. Now there is some kind of problem at the Whitefish Press.

I do not like seeing anyone trying to take advantage of a problem. So, I do not like seeing the books at that price. I wish I could sell these books much cheaper, but, as I have said many times. The publishing business is not Me, I am at the mercy of the publisher, who is in some kind of situation with the Book Binder.

All my soft covers are gone. I have a few hard covers left. They are considered Author Proofs or Limited Editions and have a signed and numbered book plate on the inside cover I have some Blue Covers and Yellow covers. If anyone is interested in ordering them I will sell them at my cost, which is about $80.00 to $100 each approximately, I have to check. Please message me if you are interested. This is all I can do at this point. Very sorry for the Whitefish Press problems but I have no control over the supply.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on December 09, 2018, 07:27:00 AM
P.M sent Michael.

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: bill19803 on December 09, 2018, 08:04:29 AM
there  are  other   sources    for  the  3 books  besides  whitefish  press    do a amazon  search  and   you may   find  them much   cheaper then the    ebay.  Whitefish  didnt  respond  to me    but   s.o.   went hunting   and  found  them     for  bday present at  whitefish  prices
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:05 PM
   I just tuned up one of these 62s before I retired it to the shelf and came across the most worn AR dog I've ever seen. I'm thinking the steel spring may have helped in wearing it so much. I didn't replace it...as I like to leave these shelfies all original. 8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mhc on May 31, 2019, 01:44:16 PM
That's impressive wear Mo, did the sleeve ratchet have signs of wear as well? Maybe it was lubricated with lapping compound.

Mike
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: broadway on May 31, 2019, 01:56:36 PM
Wow! That is one "old dog," Mo.
Cool how you can see the engagement was a teeny off or the dog is thicker than the ratchet by that amount.
My guess is there may be some gear lash in regards to the ratchet. That part has put in more than its share of work to say the least.
Neat find,
Dom
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on June 01, 2019, 05:08:58 AM
That's cool Mo,  she deserves to be left as is....

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on June 02, 2019, 04:17:10 PM
QuoteI just tuned up one of these 62s before I retired it to the shelf and came across the most worn AR dog I've ever seen. I'm thinking the steel spring may have helped in wearing it so much. I didn't replace it...as I like to leave these shelfies all original.

"Steel" spring? The reason for the abnormal wear must be the spring. No Penn conventional dog spring should be steel. They are all brass. Steel would put much too stress on the parts causing that excessive wear.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on June 02, 2019, 05:51:17 PM
Quote from: Penn Chronology on June 02, 2019, 04:17:10 PM
"Steel" spring? The reason for the abnormal wear must be the spring. No Penn conventional dog spring should be steel.

   I agree...but this ain't the first time I've seen a steel spring in an old Penn. I opened an old Delmar with one, and a Bayhead too. Probably something Dominick did years ago...just to mess with us new punks...HA!! :D
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on June 02, 2019, 07:14:47 PM
 Here is a steel dog spring that came out of a well used pre war Delmar.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Ron Jones on June 03, 2019, 02:25:26 AM
I just read through this whole thing, I'm not a collector and so wasn't interested until I realized that the little ones are Jigmaster size, I love history.

I've only seen the width of the 61, which seems really close to the width of the XN Jigmaster created just recently, funny how nothing is new. Can someone tell me the width of the other two? Does the 99 use a 63 spool or do none of the widths match up exactly. Its neat to see that the 259 is a dressed up Longbeach, I'm guessing it would have been called a 64? Probably not made because the 65 would be similar capacity following the yardage rule.

Ron Jones
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Maxed Out on June 03, 2019, 02:33:04 AM

Ron, the long beach 61,62, and 63 are smaller diameter than standard long beach 60. The 61,62, & 63 all have unique spools that don't interchange with any other models
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Ron Jones on June 03, 2019, 02:41:05 AM
Great,
I understand that they are smaller than the 60, they are the same diameter as the 500/99/259 etc. I just wasn't sure of the widths. I hypothesized that the 62 was the precursor to the 501 and the 63 was the precursor to the 99. I just like trying to recreate the hypothetical thought process that led to different models.
By the way, 15kts, 2-4 w/5, Little bumpy but I'm game!
Ron Jones
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on June 03, 2019, 01:01:09 PM
Quote from: Ron Jones on June 03, 2019, 02:41:05 AM
I understand that they are smaller than the 60, they are the same diameter as the 500/99/259 etc. I just wasn't sure of the widths. I hypothesized that the 62 was the precursor to the 501 and the 63 was the precursor to the 99.

   The LB 63 was actually the same width as the LB 60. Had it been the width of the LB 65 it would have been an early "99". Interestingly, released the same year(1938) was the Silverbeach 97 which did become the 99. I gotta slow down...my eyes just crossed again...:P
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: mo65 on June 03, 2019, 01:12:12 PM
   Something else just entered my mind as a few clouds parted. It would probably be more correct to say the LB 62 inspired the Senator 1/0...and then the 1/0 inspired the Jiggy 501. 8)
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on June 06, 2019, 02:46:31 AM
Massive amount of speculation here. I do not believe the early Models 61, 62 and 63 were the inspiration of future models. I have always felt they stand alone. The Model 259 Live Bait Caster is the parent of the Jigmaster 500. Relating one model to another is a fun thig to do; but, it is speculating mostly. There is no one left to ask about these opinions, so they fall into the zone of "hearsay".
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on October 21, 2019, 05:48:46 AM
Question,
           This was identified as a longbeach reel made for Duvall sporting goods....
  So did Duvall's have there own boxes ?.
Or would this have been packaged with a Penn box of the era ?????

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 24, 2019, 03:04:52 AM
QuoteThis was identified as a longbeach reel made for Duvall sporting goods....
   So did Duvall's have there own boxes ?.
Or would this have been packaged with a Penn box of the era ??

Ones that I have seen were packaged in a Penn box. The thing that most identified them a s a Duvall was the Red Handle knob. All Penn Duvall's had red knobs.
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: milne on October 24, 2019, 07:02:07 AM
Thank you Mike,  I wasn't sure about the Duvall reels, I know, although different, a kingfisher trade reel came in there own box,
But I just wasn't 100% on the Duvall reels, not being a trade reel, as you explained to me a while back.

Thanks again...

Col
Title: Re: 61-62-63 Long Beach
Post by: Penn Chronology on October 24, 2019, 07:24:23 PM
QuoteThank you Mike,  I wasn't sure about the Duvall reels, I know, although different, a kingfisher trade reel came in there own box,
But I just wasn't 100% on the Duvall reels, not being a trade reel, as you explained to me a while back.

Glad to help.