Reel Repair by Alan Tani

I asked a question a few months ago about how Penn spool design changed through the years but got no responses. I'm asking again, but this time illustrating with pictures. Here goes. The reasons for the change are obvious; increased strength and lighter weight are the rule by which they progressed. I'm interested in the actual spool design/construction and when Penn made the design changes.

I believe the first spool design was what I had previously been thinking others were referring to as a "3-piece" spool. I'm wondering if that thinking was incorrect now and what others were calling a "3-piece" is further down this list. I'll get back to that. If we're going to discuss these we're going to have to agree what we are going to call each design.

I believe the first spools were composed of a drilled arbor and separate flanges, with an addtional band seen on the inside of the flange where it meets the arbor. It is illustrated below. I should have taken the photo looking down the drilled hole in the arbor, sorry. My understanding is that as the years progressed the location of this drilled hole moved from more to one side towards the center. Here's the spool I'm talking about
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_52_14743637.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_53_14744718.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_55_14745935.jpeg)

After this, I believe the next change was the elimination of the hole and its replacement with a post to which the line could be tied, looking like this:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_39_1472847.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_40_147281500.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_41_14730213.jpeg)

Next up was the plastic spool that appeared in the Squidder 140 in '39. I think that was the first use. I only have one Squidder plastic spool and it has line on it, so I photographed a plastic spool from a #78 to show the arbor and the flanges, but I've included photos of the ends of my Squidder plastic spool (with the flanges that Henze patented) because they are different from the 78. So, first, the 78:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_11_27_14_14747559.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_11_27_14_14748304.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_11_27_15_147491234.jpeg)

And now the ends of the Squidder spool with the anti-backlash flanges (Mike C does a good job explaining this spool in his books)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_11_27_17_147521567.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_11_27_16_147511879.jpeg)

Note the pin seen in the end of the Squidder spool on the handle side. The 78 plastic spool does not have this; another design change....

I'm not sure in which order the following spools appeared; I suspect there was some overlap and several were produced simultaneously, but I don't really know.

Then came the chromed, cast-bronze spools that came first (I think) on the Senators; they were stronger, being that one piece comprised the flanges and arbor; I believe the advent of monofilament line made this spool necessary. When mono was wound tightly onto a 3-piece spool, the spool had a tendency to explode under the pressure from each successive tight wind of the mono putting pressure outward on the flanges. This design solved that problem.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_42_14731430.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_43_14732819.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_44_147331785.jpeg)

I'm not at all sure about the next few designs. The light-weight aluminum design combined the one-piece construction of the chromed cast-brass with the light weight of aluminum
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_44_147342173.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_45_147351693.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_46_147361831.jpeg)

Now I've come to what others may be describing as 3-piece spools. I don't have many of these because of the era of Penn I am interested in. I believe these were common in the 60's. One design looks a lot like the chromed cast bronze but is obviously separate pieces; arbor and flanges

(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_47_147371304.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_48_14738773.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_49_14739459.jpeg)

And a similar design, I believe from around the same time, but with a distinct raised band around the arbor that is clearly different from the design immediately above
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_50_14740912.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_51_147411364.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_52_147422478.jpeg)

Now I know there are additional spool designs used in lever drag reels and many others, but for the purpose of this discussion I'd like to stick to the conventional star drag spools; I don't know if I have missed any designs, these are examples of ones in my collection and it is by no means complete.

Mike, Ray, Ted, John, and anyone else, what can you guys tell us about these spools and what the differences mean to us collectors?

Thanks
Sid

I know of at least one other spool type (which unfortunately I no longer have so I can't show): A wire line spool for the 49. It had a large arbor with vents so reduce weight and, I suppose, to allow the line to drain.

Thanks, akfish, I have seen that spool. Or one that fits that description. The cutouts in the arbor were diamond-shaped. I have only seen that one. I don't know if they were all designed like that.

So when people speak of "three-piece" spools, are they speaking of the first spools, is it this
(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_52_14743637.jpeg)

and this

(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_39_1472847.jpeg)

or this?

(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_47_147371304.jpeg)

And is this the same as the previous?

(http://alantani.com/gallery/14/15180_29_06_16_10_51_50_14740912.jpeg)

Thanks,
Sid

QuoteSo when people speak of "three-piece" spools, are they speaking of the first spools, is it this

Yes, the first two picture are three piece spools. The others are generally referred to as Stainless spools.

I love these posts...finite details showing innovation and improvement over decades of trials, tests and FISHING.

I love Penn due to the shear amount of history and self-betterment (word?); constant innovation is the name of the game...and they have it.

I would say that all of the above are three-piece spools.
Here is a shot of how they're put together:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160701_154555_1.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160701_154555_1.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160701_154606_1.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160701_154606_1.jpg.html)
I believe Lee and another member have the stainless steel spool apart, I don't remember who it was.

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 01, 2016, 08:35:01 PM
I would say that all of the above are three-piece spools.
Here is a shot of how they're put together:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160701_154555_1.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160701_154555_1.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160701_154606_1.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160701_154606_1.jpg.html)
I believe Lee and another member have the stainless steel spool apart, I don't remember who it was.

Sal, the spindle/axle is press-fit into the arbor on these spools? Because I know some have nuts on the outside of the flange for disassembly. And I'd love to see other disassembled spools so I can see how they fit together. Whoever has the stainless spools apart, please post photos.

Thanks.
Sid

I tried to get one apart but could only get one side off. I'm sure Lee will show how they go together, it's actually pretty simple.
All of the above are considered three-piece spools,  if you count all the part individually on the one I'm showing, you'll come up with 11 pieces.
I believe just the arbor and cheeks/flanges are counted.


Can't tell you the year on these, but here is a metal two-piece spool, somewhat similar to the plastic spool in design:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20160702_093952.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20160702_093952.jpg.html)

A 29M-250 spool for a 250 surfmaster or 500 pulled apart;

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SS_XXVuV4mg/V3hGjknlf4I/AAAAAAAAA_k/x5PFRHlbOBYKJvvjzuwTy1Fq32v0ulhbQCCo/s800/DSCF2492.JPG)

The arbor / spindle is one piece. Here is a longbeach 66 spool arbor that Chris (Rothmar2) turned down to 501 width to make a 66N

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j393/westozwayward/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zpsh02gt4pi.jpg)

Mike

Thanks for posting those pics Mike, sorry I couldn't remember it was you.

Sal

Thanks, Mike. This is becoming a fun thread. Are the flanges threaded also, or is it just the nuts on either end that hold them in place?


Sid

The flanges are a push tight fit (some not as tight as others) held in place by the nuts you can see at each end. I think the polished flanges are are chromed brass & the ones with a 'brushed' finish are stainless.

A chromed brass flange pulled off the arbor of a 500 spool;

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R77c3Clbs3I/V3iRbC1qk8I/AAAAAAAAA_8/KrbahZAAFjIx2PoFWV3ui2CJLXA1xHsAQCCo/s800/DSCF2529.JPG)

And a 500 spool with 'brushed' stainless flanges;

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XZmEMhzu3wU/VwgzVlsKerI/AAAAAAAAA4M/2GiJeALjJkku3aogIrS-MCasdyUddI3cwCCo/s800/DSCF2519.JPG)

Mike

Thanks, I realized the answer to my question after I asked it....  ::)

Wow, what a great read! I used to think aluminium spools were the ultimate in spool development until a few days ago when I pulled the braid off my very expensive twin drag jigging reel to find corrosion and pitting.
I have always washed this reel in warm water after every use, but would recommend pulling the line off after every trip now.
I have seen this before on aluminium spools of differing brands.
In my opinion now, I think the plastic spool must be the ultimate in corrosion resistance and therefore longevity.

I had a 711 Spinfisher, my first spin reel, that had a plastic spool and I thought that spool was inferior to an aluminium one. My thinking has changed a lot since then.

Basto  

A little modification to this discussion is required. I picked up a second, slightly older Penn Long Beach 68, (compare to the reel in starting on post 239 here http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12463.225#lastPost  Both reels have similar 3-piece metal spools but, as you can see, the dimensions of the arbor are significantly different from the newer model. We had determined that this reel with the spool with the wider arbor was an early '40's model. This newer one (pictured below) is older based on the tall handle counterweight with coin-edge markings, externally accessible drags (I haven't been inside yet but it has steel gears, my magnet told me) - It does have a Hershey Kiss clicker and no yardage stamped on the foot - I'm going to call it a '39 or '40 model What is different about this reel is its spool, and what is different about the spool is the arbor. The smaller arbor measures 12.11mm, the wider 15.65mm.  So it would appear the pertinent questions are, when was the change made, and why? I wonder if the economics of the war and the availability of stock copper/brass tube/pipe sizes factored into the equation?

Sid

Sorry I missed the 49 spool reference before.  I think the 49 was designed for wire line trolling.  Wrapping wire line on a small arbor makes it useless.  It would come off looking like a slinky.  The larger the diameter of the wraps, the better the wire line will behave.  Hence the large arbor and tall, narrow spool.

Basto, I recently ruined an old aluminum spool (not Penn) by leaving wet salty line on the spool for two weeks.  It didn't take long.

I have a Spinfisher 710 that I bought new with plastic spool.  It has never been a bit of trouble.  But, when I bought it my buddies all said it would never last a season.  It is the same vintage as the early plastic squidder spools and those had a lot of problems when loaded with mono.

-steve

   I have a tip here for the new members who might not have experience with cleaning up corrosion on these old spools. You need something acidic to remove the green growth. Scrubbing with abrasives will only ruin the chrome...and most times not even affect the corrosion. A simple vinegar bath will remove it in minutes, and finishing with a baking soda/toothbrush scrub will stop the chemical action.
   The first photo shows a 309 spool after several cleanings with common soaps and cleaners...didn't remove a bit of corrosion. The second pic shows what a 15 minute vinegar soak and a baking soda scrub yielded...much better! This is an easy way to clean up corrosion. I'm not saying it's the best, just easy. Every kitchen has a bottle of vinegar.
   You can further scrub the spool with Never Dull or Brasso and whiten the brassy/bronzish spots, making them blend into the chrome better.  8)

  Sid, all the pre war metal spools had the smaller diameter arbor. After the war the arbors got bigger and was intentionally designed for the arbor to have a stronger bond with the spool flanges. The early spools had issues with side flanges coming loose from the arbor. Also note that the larger arbor had virtually no effect on the amount of line it would hold.

  Ted

Quote from: basto on August 06, 2016, 10:11:55 PM
In my opinion now, I think the plastic spool must be the ultimate in corrosion resistance and therefore longevity.
I had a 711 Spinfisher, my first spin reel, that had a plastic spool and I thought that spool was inferior to an aluminium one. My thinking has changed a lot since then.

Basto  

  Well Basto...at least there are two of us rebels...I have been experimenting with the old plastic spools too. All the time we hear the same old story: "I wound mono on a plastic spool and it busted"...yeah, yeah, yeah...I think just about everyone knows this now. Something I've never seen yet is a post saying a powerful fish busted one. I have a hunch if these guys are properly spooled they will catch fish, especially the smaller capacity spools. The larger capacity spools are more susceptible to mono destruction...more wraps equals more pressure. As always, a non-stretch line will eliminate any problems at all. It's just a matter of paying attention to details.
  Here's a link to a cool spool I picked up cheap. I plan to build a reel around it...something strong enough to stress it. I'm curious as to how much a properly spooled and maintained plastic spool can handle. 8)

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/272476831420?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Of course, I have to throw my 2 cents in.  When Carl started making his conversion kits his spools emulated the Penn design with the rounded flanges.  Later on, when Penn came out with their aluminum spools, the flanges had shoulders, so Carl switched over to the shouldered spools.  While on the subject he went thru a number of engineering changes on the spools over the years, especially the aluminum spools.

Quote from: reel man on December 21, 2016, 12:25:50 AM
Of course, I have to throw my 2 cents in.  When Carl started making his conversion kits his spools emulated the Penn design with the rounded flanges.  Later on, when Penn came out with their aluminum spools, the flanges had shoulders, so Carl switched over to the shouldered spools.  While on the subject he went thru a number of engineering changes on the spools over the years, especially the aluminum spools.

That's some cool Newell history. Any idea when Carl started making his parts and when the factory(his garage) closed down for good ?? I personally love newell spools. I believe Carl Newell was a guy ahead of his time. His kits are still highly prized today, but not easy to find anymore.

Ted and Jerry, I love Newell Penn spools too much.  I would love to unload some!

Randy

Found this 2 piece spool on a 149... there is a seam in the middle of the chrome/brass spool and spanned nuts on each end...the 149 has part numbers on the pictured tail plate....
(http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj632/Fubarciw/fishing%20equip/20170218_110609.jpg)
(http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj632/Fubarciw/fishing%20equip/20170218_110536.jpg)
(http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj632/Fubarciw/fishing%20equip/20170218_111530.jpg)

Randy, you know that the Hawaii guys go nuts for Newell stuff.

Quote from: Vintage Offshore Tackle on December 21, 2016, 05:26:55 AM
Ted and Jerry, I love Newell Penn spools too much.  I would love to unload some!

Randy

I recently purchased some random items and included were a few old penn spools in box, I was actually hoping they would fit another model. Can anyone tell me how to identify these guys and an approx value, just so I can tell how much I over paid haha.  Heres a pic and boxes were green with no labels present.

Without measurements, I would venture a guess they are Surfmaster/Beachmaster 200.....Bill

Top spool is a Surf/Beach Master, bottom is a Squidder, notice the length of the spool shafts
(http://i.imgur.com/SU0ZRGK.jpg?1)

Right spool is the Squidder, left Surf/Beach Master, again showing the length of the shaft
(http://i.imgur.com/ncGhbOO.jpg?1)

Thanks Tarfu. Sounds logical and will measure. I was thinking they could be identified by numbering or something.

bushings versus bearings. 

If there was a part number it would be something like 29-200 or 29-155....the 2 and the 0 does not give much information....Bill

   There have been a few Penn spool "firsts" show up lately in other threads and I want to share them here. The first pic is AC49's white jigmaster spool, and the second photo is a white spooled 155 belonging to Deepennz. Wow...who knows what will show up next? 8)

Just in after a long search ... a Penn 49A white spool which I decided to pair with a suitable twin  ;D

Whoa! 

That is definitely the first one of those I have seen. 

No doubt one of a kind 49A.......absolutely stunning......and I'm jealous.

Thanks for sharing the pics

  Ted

 :o :o :o

QuoteJust in after a long search ... a Penn 49A white spool which I decided to pair with a suitable twin  Grin

WOW!!! What I tell myself is Penn never did anything in Ones. If that is true, then there are more of these somewhere on the planet.

Thank you for sharing this.

   That makes 2 white spools for AC49...maybe they were an African export thing? I'd love to see more pop up, especially in my searches! 8)

I recently found a Penn 49A with a grey color spool. Not great condition but cleaned it up best I could.
Never seen another .....

Enjoy
AC49

Great find AC49!

Quote from: mo65 on January 08, 2018, 02:40:45 PM
There have been a few Penn spool "firsts" show up lately in other threads and I want to share them here.

Thanks for helping me document all this in an "orderly" way, Mo!

Quote from: sdlehr on December 27, 2018, 04:32:32 PM
Thanks for helping me document all this in an "orderly" way, Mo!

   You're welcome Sid. These Vintage section threads are a huge source of info for me...so I'm sure others are using them too. Thanks to all the members who post their unique finds.

I recently found a Penn 500 Jigmaster with standard black sideplates but with silver Aluminium spool containing a braking mechanism  ???
There is an aluminium collar which the spool fits over and the braking mechanism rides on this collar to affect the braking of the spool.
Not sure if it some aftermarket part or if Penn ever did anything like this ?
Any help would be appreciated  ???

Regards
AC49

Last 2 pictures

AC49, I'm wanting to see the answers you get on that wild 500 you found, I'm sure someone will know something...

   Wow! What a cool set up. I've never seen centrifugal braking applied to a Jigmaster. Thanks for sharing AC49. 8)

That's something.  The handle is fairly modern, right?
-steve

Yes Steve just as I found it  ... and pics after a basic clean up.

Regards
AC49

Has anyone ever seen one like this before?  It's a bright red spool with square shoulders to fit the 200, 155, 25, etc.  If anyone would like to buy it, please PM me an offer.  I would love to sell it.

That's a nice blank nice red spool Randy, would look good on a grey monofil. It shouldn't last long.

Quote from: AC49 on February 14, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Last 2 pictures

That's one crazy cool spool with built in cast control

Thanks for sharing

Ted

Rebuilding a baymaster 180. Ordered what seemed to be an original plastic spool in box. Got it and it is definitely wrong. Slightly wider and is square on the handle side. Definitely looks like a penn but what one. Maybe a very old design, i dont know. Would like to figure out what it goes to.

Does not look like a Penn. Is there a part number anywhere on the spool or any kind of markings?

Only a 4 on the clicker side and a backwards 6 or 9 on the other.

Quote from: WDill on September 08, 2019, 07:45:18 AM
Only a 4 on the clicker side and a backwards 6 or 9 on the other.

That is a 29-77 Sea Hawk spool... just in case you purchased it through mystic reel parts, they would take it back with no questions.
I looked for you and do not have a plastic spool, I  also looked on the big site and they're only showing (2) chromed spools, the cheaper of the two is $15 shipped.

If no one comes through with one and you really need to have it, I have a new Penn 29-100 aluminum spool you could have for $20+ shipping.

ProChallenger also sells custom aluminum spools in a few color for that reel, excellent item, but cost a little more.

Sal

And here is the price you pay for answering a question at times :)
(https://i.imgur.com/KhayPiS.jpg)
Grabbed my cell and didn't realize the spool was resting on it...oh well...

Gee wizz Sal, with all the trouble you go to to help us, you certainly did not deserve that, so sorry, cheers Don.

Quote from: Donnyboat on September 08, 2019, 06:00:10 PM
Gee wizz Sal, with all the trouble you go to to help us, you certainly did not deserve that, so sorry, cheers Don.

It is not a problem at all Don, i'm a pro at it... it isn't the first time .
I do have a couple more of the same, so it didn't hurt too bad🙂.

By the way WDill, I forgot to mention Randy, from Vintage Offshore Tackle, he might have one for you at a good price.

Sal

Sal,

Sorry about the spool. That looks like the one I have. If you want it, you can have it for free. I also have an original Penn spool box that I will send to you with the spool. I really have no need for either. I think its amazing that you knew what that came out of. So it is a Penn spool after all.

If you can spare it I would like to take you up on your offer of the 29L 100 spool. I looked at the chrome ones and I think they would be too heavy. I am setting the 180 up as a gift (casting reel) for my father in law. I am not sure how educated his thumb is and those heavy spools would probably make a mess with light weights or lures. I had planned on loading it with dacron or braid but with an aluminum spool i could probably get away with 20 lb mono.

Bill

Almost forgot, message me your address and I will get them in the mail. If you are willing to sell me the spool let me know how to pay you.

Bill

   Saw these posted on the Facebooks...white spool nirvana!! Well, one of them is grey, the grey sheep of the family. 8)

QuoteSaw these posted on the Facebooks...white spool nirvana!! Well, one of them is grey, the grey sheep of the family. Cool

Someone on Facebook did a deal with a South African collector. He worked something out to have these reels and some more imported from SA. They are custom-colored spools for the
deep Sea Model 49 A and Jigmaster 500 A reels. Very hard to come by these spools. I was lucky enough to get an example of the White and Gray 49A versions.

Notice on the Jigmaster 500 A models, the plastic spool has a narrow arbor. That is to allow for more line. The Jigmaster are being used for large gamefish, so they need more line capacity than we use in the USA. These spools are specially made for South African rock casting.