How noticable or bad during a extended fight is the drag fade with some of the drag upgrades with a Tib 4/0 frame. I'm looking at coming up with a small - midsize shark reel that can maintain 25 lbs. of drag. The simplicity of a senator star drag would be a nice thing. However I cant help but think a Penn 16VSX might be better money spent. Any thoughts appreciated....Jeff
Jeff, as I understand drag fade it is the effect of the drag washers heating up during a long fight, by changing to carbon fiber from asbestos less fade is realized and when you add a drag grease this helps even further, allowing longer fights by reducing the heat causing friction....I know little about the 16VSX, but with a larger drag surface of the drag disc, carbon fiber and grease I would think the fight could be even longer than traditional star drags. I can only guess but the 16vsx surface would be more surface than a stock 114H ?....Going to a 7+1 adds even more surface....JMO I am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in...... Bill
I agree. CF star drags have been used to catch the biggest fish on surprisingly small reels. Sal has done tests demonstrating that 25# is a reasonable working range for the new versa-drag systems that are being produced on here. A frame will be a must, as will other internal upgrades to deal with the extra stress. You can get most of the same upgrades for a 114HLW and, as much as I love the 113H, it may be a better rig for running sharks that require 25#s of drag. the increase in weight will be negligible.
Ron
Yup it's all do to heat or the drag not having the means to deal with it.
Noyb, your most likely right about the 6/0 being the better tool for the task....Jeff
Lever drag's perform much better with regards to heat dissapation, and reduced effects of drag fade in a prolonged battle. The Tiagras are worth a look if this is a primary concern. They have a hydrothermal device which expands proportionally with increased heat to keep the pressure on the fish. Larger spool diameter, weight, and drag disc diameter all help here as well. The upgraded star drags can perform, but they will not match up to lever drags with regards to heat dissapation IMHO.
Maintaining 25 lbs will be tough on any reel. As the guys have mentioned, you would definitely be better off with a 114h loaded with goodies, but would love to see what the our 113H would do.
for 25 pounds of drag, i'd think that a 6/0 or 9/0 would be preferred. the shark guys would know better. this drag fade business is also something we need to look at in an organized and systematic fashion. there are hints of problems that i had not foreseen. :-\
https://youtu.be/e5EC4aJc1Q0
Almost 50% loss in drag is surprising. I wonder what the spool RPM would have been. It did not seem that it was an unreasonable speed for a large fish or to long of a run. One thing that would help the fisherman is the fact that reducing spool diameter by line paying out increases drag. I'd llike to see what a magnum, with 4/0 drags would do in the same situation.
Ron
I am not wishing to come across as a know it it all. Simply because I know just enough to have a solid realization of just how little I do know.
However already knowing what Alan's vid showed... was my reason for asking this question. I am amazed at the drag level my Andros 12's will make. 20-25 lbs. of glass smooth drag. But they are far from being 60 or 80 lb. line class reels. Unable to handle the heat generated by long runs along with other issues reels this size have trouble overcoming. This issue only gets worse as the initial drag setting is increased. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the 9/0 & 12/0 reels wooped big fish with line capacity vs high drag ?
Any way regarding my question it seems that the consensus is useing a Senator the 114 6/0 with appropriate upgrades would be better choice for a midsize reel....Jeff
I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
According the stuff I read, the thickeners in grease lose viscosity with heat, decreasing the coefficient of friction. Lower CEF = less drag at the same amount of force. Kind of make sense. If you had to run across a room filled knee deep with peanut butter or with water, which would take more work?
Alan's test is turning the opposite set of drag parts that a fish taking line would turn. Probably doesn't make any t difference, but thought it was worth mentioning.
A couple things to think about.
1. Since leverage is lost as spool diameter decreases (drag pressure will go up as spool diameter decreases), some amount of drag fade may not be a bad thing if it is temporary and compensates for spool diameter decrease in that critical first run.
The following items get my usual disclaimer about not trusting my math :) but as best as I can figure it:
2. Although a large amount of heat is generated, it is for a relatively short time. At 15 miles per hour, it takes only 54 seconds to run 400 yards. At an average spool diameter of 2 inches we are talking about 2500 rpm.
3. A 400 yard run at 25 lbs drag would generate around 40,000 joules of energy. That would be enough to energy to raise the heat of a very large stainless disk (100x10 mm with a 20mm hole) about 580 degrees Fahrenheit. So the drag system cannot act solely as a heat sink even though the duration is usually short (the fish stops, or you run out of line). Approximating Alan's test: a 200 yard run at 8 lbs drag would generate 6500 joules which would heat up a 50x5mm stainless disk about 320 degrees Fahrenheit (minus any ongoing cooling)
Heat dissipation has to be part of the design at these high drag settings. Reel designs don't do a very good job of moving heat, hence the need for large heavy reels that act as a larger heat sink. As Alan has said, reel design really hasn't caught up with spectra...
Regarding the question about aluminum stars- yes aluminum is a better conductor of heat than brass or especially stainless, but that heat has to travel up through the drag stack, spacer and to the star. So an oversized aluminum star with thin fins, holes, etc and an aluminum spacer would help dissipate the heat better, but the drag stack inside of a stainless gear and sleeve is pretty well insulated, so it is possible it would not make enough of a difference. Somebody would have to try it. In the end, there are limits to what a star drag can handle.
-J
i wasn't too worried about our practice of greasing drags after this test because i knew that a fish would never put this level of stress on a reel.
QuoteAt 15 miles per hour, it takes only 54 seconds to run 400 yards.
the fish would be long gone before the reel would heat up to the levels that i was seeing on the winder. still, it remains a concern. conversely, there are many on the "dark side" that use greased drags and we seem to be landing fish ok! ;D
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 20, 2016, 11:37:35 PM
I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.
Alan, did you happen to run the test again after the first run? I only ask because something has occurred to me. I learned from you and therefore put a healthy amount of grease on my drag disks. I have found that it takes a bit for those disks to settle down, I imagine from getting the excess grease out from between the disks. I am wondering if that reel at that setting still makes 8 pounds of drag, and if it doesn't, would it do better the next time around when you adjust the drag back up to 8 pounds.
I hope that makes sense.
Ron
Very cool video! I guess that if you hooked into a biggun the drag fade would help as you watched your line disappear and would have to button down the drag once you stopped it's run. It would be great to see a test with a lever drag reel as well Thanks for taking the time to do this video guys.
Quote from: Keta on November 21, 2016, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 20, 2016, 11:37:35 PM
I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.
Lee, the stainless insert on the star drag would be for the sole purpose of longevity of the threads. Being that aluminum threads would not stand up as well long term on something being lossened & tightened repeatedly....Jeff
Quote from: Keta on November 21, 2016, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 20, 2016, 11:37:35 PM
I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.
In case we are not all saying the same thing: I think aluminum being a better conductor actually helps. The heat will move into aluminum more quickly and will dissipate into the air (convection) more quickly as well. A stainless insert would slow the conduction process down a bit.
Re. drag grease: It looks to be a tradeoff between performance potential and real world conditions. I would guess there would be less high speed drag fade and not too much of a static friction issue with a perfectly clean, uncontaminated dry carbon fiber setup. But reels are not used in laboratories... The reason folks started using grease in the first place was too many sticky drags at inopportune times. So a lab guy at a reel manufacturer is probably not going to like drag grease as much as the fisherman on the deck of a long ranger. Does this sound about right?
-J
Certainly,
I am starting to think that you can have more grease than needed to eliminate start up. That is what I mean by "settling down."
It is often that after a fish or two I find that I am tightening the star more to get the same drag, and then eventually that stops. I hypothesize that I am displacing unneeded grease. I don't really care what I am doing, Alan showed me how to set up my reels and it is working. I'm not about to go fixing it. :D
Ron
extra grease squeezes out the sides and is taken out of play. these washers are under ALOT of pressure. for all we know, the carbon fiber material itself might "fade" when heated to high temps. it might not be the teflon grease at all. that's why i'm going to go through this in a systematic fashion, as soon as i get some spare time...... ;D
Spare time, your retired! You have all the spare time in the world. ;D
Ron
First off, I do not have the equipment that the boss has, so, take this as you wish.
I decided to do a little comparison with the 113H gears, using the HX gear set and standard gear set.
As silly as this might be for some, I believe the test is a valid one, since I did the same for both.
I set the drag at 27 lbs., I wanted to go higher, but the standard eared gears can only be pushed at that. The HX still had more room to increase.
I hooked the line on a post and pulled the reed about 4' every second for 40 times. One crank of the handle brought me back to start, so it wasn't bad.
If you want to try it for yourself, make sure the line stays in the center of the spool.
Here are my results:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161120_215810.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161120_215810.jpg.html)
The 113H went up to 105 degrees and the standard 122 degrees.
The arrow on the reel points to the hottest spot, the star and handle nut only got up to 100 degrees on both.
I've been saying all along increasing drags as much as possible will make the reel much smooth at where it was intended to be fished at.
A smooth running drag doesn't heat as much as jerky drag.
We have some good upgrades here, I understand my test isn't the same as a fishing situation, but wouldn't be surprised if our 4/0's loaded with goodies would survive.
Sal
That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
I forgot to mention that the reel got a little easier to pull at mid point of the test, even though the star was still tight.
This confirms what the boss was saying.
When doing different test on reels, last one for Tom's anti reverse when I was dropping 75 lbs. with at least 30 lbs. of drag to start from a pretty good height & throwing the lever forword engaging the reel & immediatly raisng the weight for another go in rapid succesion. Several times I had to stop to let the reel cool down. There were times I'd be very surprised if the 30 lbs. of drag had not diminished to less than 15 lbs....Jeff
Jeff,
I have pointed you to the 114H from the get go.
This reel will bring up the biggest of Cats, and Decent sized sharks in stock form.
This reel is a transition from the smaller Senators to the Biggest.
A powerhouse in a compact package without upgrades other than a New Carbon fiber stack will yield results. ;)
Quote from: noyb72 on November 21, 2016, 03:58:07 AM
That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
Hi Ron,
Just want to be bit more accurate here, but I do agree with your main point.
The amount of heat generated ( or more accurately transferred from motion to heat) is a result of load and time. The materials and shapes involved do not affect the amount of work being done.
In terms of shedding the heat quickly enough so that the drag performance in consistent, using materials and/or designs, that aid conduction ( heat passing though the part) and convection ( heat transferring out the part into the air) is the key. Heat will follow the path of least resistance, so thin walls on the main gear will help a star drag stack conduct the heat away more quickly.
Not sure if more/ thinner washers help if the ratio of carbon to stainless stays the same. Also, I could not find any data on heat conduction of carbon weave and drag grease.
-J
Daron, I'm completely set up for cat reels. I have what I think are the best reels for the money for 20 30 50 60 & 80 lb. line. 3 combos for each of these line classes for catfish.
This reel would be for sharks. I'm looking for small to midsize shark reels....Jeff
Just trying to help my Man. ;)
Quote from: jurelometer on November 21, 2016, 05:57:49 AM
Quote from: noyb72 on November 21, 2016, 03:58:07 AM
That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
Hi Ron,
Just want to be bit more accurate here, but I do agree with your main point.
The amount of heat generated ( or more accurately transferred from motion to heat) is a result of load and time. The materials and shapes involved do not affect the amount of work being done.
In terms of shedding the heat quickly enough so that the drag performance in consistent, using materials and/or designs, that aid conduction ( heat passing though the part) and convection ( heat transferring out the part into the air) is the key. Heat will follow the path of least resistance, so thin walls on the main gear will help a star drag stack conduct the heat away more quickly.
Not sure if more/ thinner washers help if the ratio of carbon to stainless stays the same. Also, I could not find any data on heat conduction of carbon weave and drag grease.
-J
I think we are saying the same thing. The HX gears have half as many metal disks per carbon disk. I don't know the numbers, but I know that CF takes longer to increase in temperature while transferring motion into heat, that is one reason why it is used in racing brake pads. What I was getting at is that a 5 CF disk HX system would require a 9 or 10 or 11 stack (however you look at it) conventional drag stack with a bunch more metal and all that metal would hold a whole lot of excess energy in the form of heat.
I hope that makes sense.
Ron
Ron
Thermodynamics has never been my strength.
Personally, I'd go star drag. The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation but the star drag is easier to clean. I've cleaned sand out of internationals before and it's a major pain.
These numbers are for testing only.
Pulling on a reel while the line was tight on a post, I was able to get it to 54lbs. at max.
This was with the newest 113HX gears.
Pulling on that same reel with the standard gears, while having the star as tight as possible,
I was only able to get to 27 lbs. and that's about right.
Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.
Sal
Ho, I forgot to mention that the reel tested had a Delrin washer under the gear.
I personally believe the Delrin washer helps with heat dissipation.
IMO Studio Ocean Mark uses aluminum drag plates because, of all the metals that i know of, it dissipates heat the fastest... :)
Quote from: Potiguar - AKA MeL B on November 21, 2016, 01:14:30 PM
IMO Studio Ocean Mark uses aluminum drag plates because, of all the metals that i know of, it dissipates heat the fastest... :)
Gold is a better conductet but not cost effective, and heavy.
Here is a list of radiation heat transfer emissivity coefficient of some common materials. I presume that the lower the number the better...but I'm not absolutely sure as thermal dynamics is not my best suit.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html
Quote from: Bryan Young on November 21, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
Here is a list of radiation heat transfer emissivity coefficient of some common materials. I presume that the lower the number the better...but I'm not absolutely sure as thermal dynamics is not my best suit.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html
Emissivity is for radiation. I believe in a fishing reel, the conductive heat transfer coefficient (thermal conductivity, denoted by a k) and the convective heat transfer (Hc) with air is what is most important. For conduction, the heat transfer is dependent on thermal conductivity (k), the area, the thickness, and finally the temperature difference. Basically its the same for convection minus the thickness. There are convective heat transfer coefficients, the area, and again the temperature difference.
Quote from: Keta on November 21, 2016, 03:29:20 PM
Gold is a better conductet but not cost effective, and heavy.
conductor and/or heat shield better but to dissipate heat better than aluminum i doubt it
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/thermalP/Lesson-1/Rates-of-Heat-Transfer
has nothing to do with fishing but since we are discussing drag fade in relation to heat and metals
here is an ex. of gold being used as a heat shield McLaren F1 car;
https://www.google.com/search?q=gold+heat+heat+shield+mclaren+f1&biw=1366&bih=676&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsgc-Pm7rQAhWrhlQKHYGtBHwQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1
other apps; electronics space bling bling etc ;D :D ;) :)
btw i'm not a scientist i'm just a googler...;) :)
Quote from: FatTuna on November 21, 2016, 12:03:32 PM
Personally, I'd go star drag. The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation but the star drag is easier to clean. I've cleaned sand out of internationals before and it's a major pain.
You know, thats the whole reason I was considering an upgraded senator. While I'm in Kansas my favorite river is mostly sand banks & bottom. So I'm framiliar with how easily it gets into everything & every where....Jeff
Quote from: FatTuna on November 21, 2016, 12:03:32 PM
The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation
here's an experiment that Sal did a while back but so while back ;)
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.135 page 10 scroll down
i really can't compare the LD's temp but as the experiment results shows it lowered the temp. Ok it is not very scientific but until somebody with a testing lab does it i tend to believe the results and also this has been applied to automobiles to reduce heat and fade during braking.
tight lines!
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 21, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.
Sal
Sal, one possibilty is what I see & hear clients say after they stroke the double action of their revolver when they come to pick it up it & exclaim "MAN THATS LIGHT". When in fact it may be only a 1/2 lb. lighter. What your feeling could be the smoothness that comes from spreading out the load ....Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 21, 2016, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 21, 2016, 12:06:48 PM
Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.
Sal
Sal, one possibilty is what I see & hear clients say after they stroke the double action of their revolver when they come to pick it up it & exclaim "MAN THATS LIGHT". When in fact it may be only a 1/2 lb. lighter. What your feeling could be the smoothness that comes from spreading out the load ....Jeff
There are two types of friction, kinetic and static. Static friction is the frictional force to overcome that is keeping the object from moving. Kinetic friction is the frictional force resisting the motion of the object while in motion. Static friction will always be higher than the kinetic friction for the same object moving against the same surface, meaning it will take more force to start an object in motion than it would to keep it in motion. Greasing the drag washers helps smooth out the static to kinetic transition and provides a more even force instead of the jerky drags we talk about. Most likely this was what caused the different feeling, a smoother static to kinetic transition.
1. All things being equal, a material that is a better thermal conductor of heat will dissipate heat better.
I checked a couple different web sources and here is what I found for the thermal conductivity of some materials (in metric W/(m K) at 25 degrees Celsius) - higher is better for conducting heat.
Aluminum: 209
Brass: 109
acetal/ delrin: .023 - .03
Stainless steel: 16
Carbon fiber in epoxy with fibers: 5-7 ( probably not the same as the phenolic resin used in drag washers- but this was all I could find)
Carbon fiber in epoxy across fibers: .5-.8
Air: .024
Salmon (?): .5
I couldn't find the thermal conductivity of Cal's grease- but since it is more a less a liquid with some stuff suspended, my guess is that the conductivity would be in line with liquids - which are all low.
So if the goal was solely to dissipate heat, stainless, delrin, grease are all not good choices compared to the OEM materials (sorry, this is the science). Of course without some of these materials, the reel would not be strong/smooth enough to support high drag settings for even a short run.
If I was building out a senator for long runs at high drag, I am not sure that I would want delrin on the top of the stack. It will act as an insulator at the location where the heat needs to travel, and also has a relatively low max operating temp (180F).
2. If clean/ dry carbon fades, it is because a layer of gas (offgassing from the material due to heat) temporarily changes the coefficient of friction. At least this what I could find regarding carbon brake fade in automobiles. It seems unlikely that a reel drag would get hot enough for this to happen. Unless the phenolic resin used in reel drags is "gassier" at lower temps than Carbon brake pads /discs in race cars. Curious to see what Alan's results will be here.
3. A smoother drag system is less likely to break lines, damage parts, etc. but the heat " generated" is a function of force and time from the fish end of the system. A smoother drag won't run cooler unless the smoothness causes the fish to decrease the length of time it runs with force above the drag setting. It is not the same situation as a motor with a smoother bearing running cooler.
-J
Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.
Quote from: Bryan Young on November 21, 2016, 09:26:58 PM
Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.
Lets not put the cart before the horse! Your kits work, well, in real world environments. Everyone changed there disks to stainless for many reasons. I think you should just keep doing what you are doing.
Ron
I agree!
I've fished Bri-Bri's kits, the man has a good thing going.
At times what you'll get on paper isn't the same when out on the real world.
Still...
Interesting.
I think that the gear sleeve, and gear will be the first to accept the heat generated in the stack.
I don't think I would be too concerned about SS or even Delron holding too much heat. It may be more important to look at the expansion rate / size of the materials to ensure there is adequete clearance to avoid binding when 'hot'.
sometimes it gets hot enough just like this youtube video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb0tgmvSx5E
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 21, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
Still...
Interesting.
I think that the gear sleeve, and gear will be the first to accept the heat generated in the stack.
I don't think I would be too concerned about SS or even Delron holding too much heat. It may be more important to look at the expansion rate / size of the materials to ensure there is adequete clearance to avoid binding when 'hot'.
Good point. Maybe that is why the loose tolerances.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 21, 2016, 10:55:19 PM
Still...
Interesting.
I think that the gear sleeve, and gear will be the first to accept the heat generated in the stack.
I don't think I would be too concerned about SS or even Delron holding too much heat. It may be more important to look at the expansion rate / size of the materials to ensure there is adequete clearance to avoid binding when 'hot'.
I think you're right. If you look at Sal's picture where the most heat is generated in both sets of gearing, it is by the gear. And a 17 degree temperature difference using the thinner walled gear.
of attacking cats, I believe the world record blue was caught near me on a stock 309...so I don't think you need a Cal's blueprint for catfishing...
Quote from: thorhammer on November 22, 2016, 03:43:07 AM
of attacking cats, I believe the world record blue was caught near me on a stock 309...so I don't think you need a Cal's blueprint for catfishing...
I was thinking a penn 209 or 7000 ambassadeur would be more than enough for any American cat.
OP Maybe a 30VSX, if you have decided to buy penn, is more suited for your target specie but you should also consider the MAK20/30 regular or SEa...my 2 cents.
How are the numbers affected while attached to a rod in arc? A lot of variables to test. If you're looking for a shark reel at least a 6/0 sized reel for line capacity.
You guys may be overthinking the issue of heat transfer and drag fade. Increase your drag performance in terms of working loads and match your gear accordingly. Stop the fish from running fast and long and you wont heat up your drag to that point. As an engineer I find some of this intriguing, but this is fishing after all just stop the fish.
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 22, 2016, 05:19:03 PM
You guys may be overthinking the issue of heat transfer and drag fade. Increase your drag performance in terms of working loads and match your gear accordingly. Stop the fish from running fast and long and you wont heat up your drag to that point. As an engineer I find some of this intriguing, but this is fishing after all just stop the fish.
True but it's still fun and things like this are the essence of the site. Sometimes you can't just stop a fish, if it's pulling the same at 40 pounds of drag than it did at 20 pounds how do you stop the run?
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 22, 2016, 05:19:03 PM
Stop the fish from running fast and long
shoot it? ;D :D ;) :)
But seriously sometimes we need to discuss things and from these discussions I learn new stuff and hopefully so do others.
Quote from: Potiguar - AKA MeL B on November 22, 2016, 06:10:03 PM
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 22, 2016, 05:19:03 PM
Stop the fish from running fast and long
shoot it? ;D :D ;) :)
But seriously sometimes we need to discuss things and from these discussions I learn new stuff and hopefully so do others.
;D
I totally understand the discussion and I'm more than happy to add what I know about heat transfer and engineering. The question was drag fade in terms of drag washers heating up. Even if you somehow increased the efficiency of heat transfer from the drag washers, the washers are still producing the heat and will continue to get hot until you remove the conditions making them heat up. The nature of friction at high speeds is that it produces heat, increasing the heat transfer will not cool them down until after they slow down. So you will still need to stop the fish, which is why I said to increase performance in terms of working loads.
As the saying goes "Don't take a knife to a gun fight" or just use a bigger gun.
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 22, 2016, 06:33:35 PM
I totally understand the discussion and I'm more than happy to add what I know about heat transfer and engineering. The question was drag fade in terms of drag washers heating up. Even if you somehow increased the efficiency of heat transfer from the drag washers, the washers are still producing the heat and will continue to get hot until you remove the conditions making them heat up. The nature of friction at high speeds is that it produces heat, increasing the heat transfer will not cool them down until after they slow down. So you will still need to stop the fish, which is why I said to increase performance in terms of working loads.
now we're talking, this is what i want to read, thanks and tight lines!
It's ok to get deep into it, that's when good things happen.
This one deserves a sticky.
Keep your opinions coming.
Sal
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 22, 2016, 06:33:35 PM
I totally understand the discussion and I'm more than happy to add what I know about heat transfer and engineering. The question was drag fade in terms of drag washers heating up. Even if you somehow increased the efficiency of heat transfer from the drag washers, the washers are still producing the heat and will continue to get hot until you remove the conditions making them heat up. The nature of friction at high speeds is that it produces heat, increasing the heat transfer will not cool them down until after they slow down. So you will still need to stop the fish, which is why I said to increase performance in terms of working loads.
But the drag doesn't need to run that long, so slowing down the process is sufficient.
Since a reel drag is always a limited duration system (there is only so much line on the reel), it doesn't have to stay below a heat threshold (200F? ) forever, just for a couple of minutes. Star drags are the toughest nut to crack as the mechanism by its nature is tightly encapsulated. So I think I see your point about the inherent limits.
But there are potential ways to improve the cooling that I haven't seen discussed here. On the other hand, we don't know exactly how much cooler we need (vs. want) these reels to run. It may not be worth the effort and feature trade offs. BTW -I think the key is airflow. A couple changes in material may not do so much.
Since spectra now allows these smaller saltwater reels to hold the same amount of line with 3-4X the original strength, it is natural for this group of folks to see how far these reels can be modified to take advantage of this new capability.
I do agree that if the goal is simply to stop the fish and the current reel is insufficient, one can simply purchase a newer/stronger reel specced for this purpose. But with this bunch, it is like telling a hot rodder that he/she might be better off buying a new Accura instead of trying to jam yet a few more horsepower into that 67 Chevelle :)
-J
Quote from: Indyfisher on November 22, 2016, 03:46:16 AM
Quote from: thorhammer on November 22, 2016, 03:43:07 AM
of attacking cats, I believe the world record blue was caught near me on a stock 309...so I don't think you need a Cal's blueprint for catfishing...
I was thinking a penn 209 or 7000 ambassadeur would be more than enough for any American cat.
Open water, in a boat yes. Most times those 2 reels would get it done. However dealing with fast current & very dense structure changes things. Also the fact Im after a record class fish.
Blue cat tend to be a more open water fish at least more so than the Fathead cat. Been spooled using a 7000 C3 more than once.
Other than always looking for the perfect rod I'm completely set up for cat reels at present. Prior to coming to this sight this has been a life long & at times a frustrating search.
A big thanks for this goes to this sight & its members who are so willing to share their knowledge & help when issues with my reels come up . I've learned a tremendous amount from the people here & have used this to finally obtain what I believe are the best record class, catfish reels for the money spent. These are the very best reels Ive ever owned
This reel here would be for sharks maybe a dozen times a year. Enjoying this thread...Jeff
Quote from: Bryan Young on November 21, 2016, 09:26:58 PM
Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.
This is an interesting discussion, but there is a fundamental idea here that's being ignored. Heat in and of itself is only a problem when it exceeds the safe limits on the parts themselves. Brakes on race cars are a very good example, because they deal with the same forces at play here, but many magnitudes larger. Brake pads are chosen based on the temperature at which they work best. For street cars, its pads that perform well cold. For race cars though, they are typically made from compounds that only work well hot. For example, carbon/carbon brakes in F1, etc. do not work well below 750 degrees F, and work best around 1100 degrees F.
This explains the switch to carbon fiber and stainless for drag washers. They do not conduct heat well, but they have very high service temperatures. Where a hard run may scorch oiled felt or the gasket type drag washers, carbon fiber washers are less likely to be affected by the heat.
Heat isnt really an issue until you approach the maximum service temperature of the components. In a most extreme case, I think the fiberglass core and binder/glue in current carbon fiber washers would be a liability. I dont know the specific compounds used, but the service temperature of those binders could be as low as 200-300 degrees, while a pure carbon washer could withstand 4-5 times that.
This is all above my pay grade, but I do remember a famous fish movie where Chief Brody was ordered to grab the chum ladle and pour some water on the reel ::) and that was a large Penn to boot......Bill
i should have written popular production car instead of automobile... ;D :D ;) :)
oops popular=affordable
https://www.google.com/#q=automobile+definition
after market brake kits or slot or drill your own brake disks preferably the front pair ;D :D ;) :)
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 21, 2016, 06:01:16 AM
Daron, I'm completely set up for cat reels. I have what I think are the best reels for the money for 20 30 50 60 & 80 lb. line. 3 combos for each of these line classes for catfish.
This reel would be for sharks. I'm looking for small to midsize shark reels....Jeff
What are your current combos in the 60 and 80lb line class?
The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics. Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones). Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc.
Worthy of exploration.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 23, 2016, 06:07:05 PM
The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics. Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones). Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc.
Worthy of exploration.
Would ceramic washers be able to be cut as thin as some of the stacks require? At that thin would they become fragile? Just curious as I've never worked with ceramic outside of automotive brake pads.
Quote from: Indyfisher on November 23, 2016, 06:24:50 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 23, 2016, 06:07:05 PM
The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics. Often wondered how drag performance wouod be affected by ceramic coated, or full ceramic drag discs ( in place of metal ones). Ceramics are used on high end airplane, auto/motorcycle racing, etc.
Worthy of exploration.
Would ceramic washers be able to be cut as thin as some of the stacks require? At that thin would they become fragile? Just curious as I've never worked with ceramic outside of automotive brake pads.
Ceramic washers are currently available in 2 different primary composites. They have excellent anticorrosion, thermal expansion/insulation (they servevas a great heat sink w/o expanding), and respond well to compression forces.
Unfortunately, it is my understanding that they are somewhat fraiable and shatter under impact forces. There are several companies looking at integrating carbon or other compounds into the production process in order to combat this weakness. There is a growing demand for ceramic fasteners (including thin washers) that are capable of suataining greater torque and impact forces.
One such promising approach is to...
" the future, it's possible we will be adding carbon nanotubes into the ceramic powders and binders before forming ceramic parts, including fasteners. This could strengthen the fasteners, make them more resistant to impacts, and capable of handling more torque"
So to answer your question.. right now thin washers are too fragile for this application.
However, ceramic coated metal washers might give some of the properties we would be looking for.
Ceramics are worthy of consideration.
John
Here are some properties of the 2 types(PSZ/Zirconia looks to be the most promising for the drag washer application) ...
CERAMIC FASTENERS
Size
Destructive torque (lb-in.)
Tensile strength (psi)
Maximum temperature (°C)
4-40
2.4
4,400
1,600
6-32
3.3
5,000
1,600
8-32
7.4
7,000
1,600
10-32
11.7
8,000
1,600
1/4-20
14.6
8,000
1,600
PROPERTIES OF ALUMINA AND ZIRCONIA
Property
Alumina (A998)
Zirconia (PSZ)
Composition by weight
99.8% Al2O3
5.4% Y2O3
Density gm/cm
3.89
6.0
Porosity (volume %)
Impervious
Impervious
Color
Ivory
Off-white
Hardness (GPa Knoop)
11.1
11.7
Four-point bend strength (MOR) (MPa)
330
760
(psi)
48,000
110,000
Maximum temperature (°C)
1,650
2,200
Thermal expansion coefficient (from 25 to 700°C) (1/ °C)
7.5 X 10-6
11.2 X 10-6
Thermal conductivity (@20°C) (W/m°K)
35
2
((Btu in.)/(ft2 hr °F))
242
14
Dielectric strength (V/mil)
200
51
Dielectric constant (@1 MHz and 20°C)
10.0
28
Volume resistivity: -cm @ 25°C
Greater than 10-14
Greater than10-13
-cm @ 300°C
2.5 X 10-11
N/A
-cm @ 500°C
5.5 X 10-8
4.8 X 10-3
Great information on the ceramic John.
What hasn't been found is at what temperature the drag fade occurs. The boss's test in infrared. ;) ;D
Let's not start swapping parts until we see a problem. I haven't run into any melted Delrin to date, some of my tests have been hard on the reel.
A while back Lee sent me some perforated keyed washer per my request, I decided to give them a shot...why not
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161123_163746.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161123_163746.jpg.html)
Numbers were lower but only by 8 degree. Still, going in the right direction.
Keep in mind, my test here is short, maybe these numbers will make a difference when the fish goes for a run.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 23, 2016, 10:09:03 PM
Let's not start swapping parts until we see a problem. I haven't run into any melted Delrin to date, some of my tests have been hard on the reel.
A while back Lee sent me some perforated keyed washer per my request, I decided to give them a shot...why not
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161123_163746.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161123_163746.jpg.html)
Numbers were lower but only by 8 degree. Still, going in the right direction.
Keep in mind, my test here is short, maybe these numbers will make a difference when the fish goes for a run.
Sal
I am not saying we have seen problems with Delron melting, but there are numerous documented cases of the drags binding or getting frozen after heating up. I myself have had a star become immovable on a 9/0 when the reel was getting spooled by a large Blue. In this case the inability to back the drag off led to a line part. There are also cases of stars cracking when the gear sleeve heats up and expands faster/more then the star. I have seen this with aluminum stars and SS sleeves from local Ulua fishermen. Drag fade is one issue, increased drag surginess is another, and the binding of drag components due is yet another possible problem related directly to heat. In most cases both, these issues can usually be managed by the angler.
Don't get me wrong, I like and trust star drags, and the upgrades we have available have increased their performance significantly.
Just exploring how to deal with the negative effects of heat on the reel, and asking if someday it might he possible to build an even better mouse trap.
I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.
The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.
For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 23, 2016, 11:35:13 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 23, 2016, 10:09:03 PM
Let's not start swapping parts until we see a problem. I haven't run into any melted Delrin to date, some of my tests have been hard on the reel.
A while back Lee sent me some perforated keyed washer per my request, I decided to give them a shot...why not
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/20161123_163746.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/20161123_163746.jpg.html)
Numbers were lower but only by 8 degree. Still, going in the right direction.
Keep in mind, my test here is short, maybe these numbers will make a difference when the fish goes for a run.
Sal
I am not saying we have seen problems with Delron melting, but there are numerous documented cases of the drags binding or getting frozen after heating up. I myself have had a star become immovable on a 9/0 when the reel was getting spooled by a large Blue. In this case the inability to back the drag off led to a line part. There are also cases of stars cracking when the gear sleeve heats up and expands faster/more then the star. I have seen this with aluminum stars and SS sleeves from local Ulua fishermen. Drag fade is one issue, increased drag surginess is another, and the binding of drag components due is yet another possible problem related directly to heat. In most cases both, these issues can usually be managed by the angler.
Don't get me wrong, I like and trust star drags, and the upgrades we have available have increased their performance significantly.
Just exploring how to deal with the negative effects of heat on the reel, and asking if someday it might he possible to build an even better mouse trap.
John, on your last comment, of course, that's what we do here.
Our Jigmasters and 4/0's, are unmatched...we're not done yet.
Quote from: Lowprofile on November 24, 2016, 04:59:31 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.
The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.
For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different
Quote from: Tightlines666 on November 23, 2016, 06:07:05 PM
The other option for dealing with excessive heat is to use ceramics.
Quantum claims that their drag system is "Magnum Carbon Fiber and Ceramic" but as Alan Hawk discovered in his review of CABO 120 it's not true;
http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/cbo14.html
Personally I have to dig/look deeper into this because I have the 60 and 80 PTSEs. Also in fairness to Quantum I had the KVD baitcaster, gave it to my ex-father in law, it has the ceramic washers.
I have no scientific basis for my theory, the following is strictly a personal observation!
Drag fade is the initial reaction when the drag begins to heat up. However, after a of period of continued heating, the drag washers act as a centrifuge with the lubricant being spun out the sides of the washers. When this action occurs the drag experiences what John termed as "surginess".
I think there is a third level which is reached on large/fast fish and that is when very little lubricant is left on the carbon fiber. Then the washers become glazed and ineffective.
This happens to all reels but the difference is in how much time before each level is reached. Since surface area dissipates heat, a Penn 80 would take considerably longer to go through these stages than a Senator 4/0.
Clearly, brass is a better conduit of heat than either SS or Alloy.
The AFTCO upgrade uses a huge chromed brass star of noble thickness.
The matching handle blank also has a big disk area at the sleeve end, again of chromed brass.
Further down this route, SS bridge and sleeve will certainly be stronger but brass for the bridge and sleeve together with a bronze main will dissipate heat better.
Come to think of it, a bronze spool is a better bet too. LOL.
Serious questions.
Could a SS gear be thin enough in the disk to accommodate an extra drag stack cycle?
With, after upgrade, drag washers being in contact with both the lower and the inner faces of the gear disk, does SS or bronze create the greater friction.
Should the coarse texture pattern or the fine texture pattern make contact with the bronze?
Presumably, with a SS gear, providing it is matt and clean, it doesn't matter.
Is there a sensible way of leaching heat from the bridge into the one piece frame? Any way of strapping the bridge screws to the frame?
Quote from: canoecaper on November 27, 2016, 02:54:56 AM
Clearly, brass is a better conduit of heat than either SS or Alloy.
The AFTCO upgrade uses a huge chromed brass star of noble thickness.
The matching handle blank also has a big disk area at the sleeve end, again of chromed brass.
Further down this route, SS bridge and sleeve will certainly be stronger but brass for the bridge and sleeve together with a bronze main will dissipate heat better.
Come to think of it, a bronze spool is a better bet too. LOL.
Serious questions.
Could a SS gear be thin enough in the disk to accommodate an extra drag stack cycle?
With, after upgrade, drag washers being in contact with both the lower and the inner faces of the gear disk, does SS or bronze create the greater friction.
Should the coarse texture pattern or the fine texture pattern make contact with the bronze?
Presumably, with a SS gear, providing it is matt and clean, it doesn't matter.
Is there a sensible way of leaching heat from the bridge into the one piece frame? Any way of strapping the bridge screws to the frame?
If by "alloy" you mean aluminum, from what I have read, alumium is a better conductor of heat than brass. There is some small variation based on the alloys involved, but aluminum will still come out way ahead. I put some of the numbers in reply 41 on this thread. Also, from what I have read, while greater surface are will generally help transfer the heat, thickness is generally an inhibitor.
The science around friction and heat transfer is often non-intuitive, and I am not claiming any sort of deep expertise, but there are some basic principles that might help us move forward on the discussion (any physics experts out there, feel free to correct or clarify):
1. The amount of slowing that the drag is applying (how much force to turn the spool and the amount of line pulled off the spool) determines the amount of heat that is generated. More accurately, energy in the form of motion is being converted into energy in the form of heat. The design and materials of the drag does not change the amount of energy involved.
2. When the drag settings and distance reach the levels found in open water fishing (let's say over 8 lbs of drag and 100 yards of line taken), the amount of energy being transferred to heat becomes significant. As in enough to heat a some internal reel parts several hundred degrees Fahrenheit. There are some examples in this thread.
3. In order for the drag performance to remain unchanged, the static (startup) and dynamic (running) coefficient of friction on the drag surfaces has to remain unchanged. The coefficient of friction is a measurement of the stickiness of a pair of mating surfaces.
4. Heat transferring between solid materials (conduction) will follow the path of least resistance. This is determined by temperature differences, the thermal conductivity of the materials, and the distances involved (e.g. the thickness of the material). The greater the temperature diffrence and the shorter the distance, the less resistance.
5. Heat transferring to a fluid (gasses including air count as a fluid here), is controlled by relative temperature, and the motion of the molecules in the fluid past the object surface. The greater the amount of cooler molecules flowing by and the larger the surface area, the greater the opportuity for these molecular collisions that result in the transfer of heat energy. This is called convection, and gets a bit complicated. However, fluids are in most cases a very poor conductor of heat. Trapped air will hold heat more effectively than solid stainless steel (this is how a thermos or styrofoam insulation works). In other words, while fluids are not effective for conducting heat, they are very effective when used the right way for convection. If you think about the example of a water cooled engine- you wil see a combination of conduction and convection in action, taking advantage of the properties mentioned above.
Note that drag grease is also mostly a fluid.
6. When heated, most materials will expand. There have been some reports of drags binding due to heat. If my math is right, the amount of linear thermal expansion of metal parts at the size found in fishing reels does not seem to be significant enough to bind the drag. My guess is that something else is going on here.
-----
There are two approaches that can be used to maintain a consistent coefficient of friction on the drag surfaces. One is to use materials and designs that are less affected by the heat, the other is to evacuate the heat being generated via a combination of conduction and convection.
Complicating factors include the vulnerability to heat of surrounding materials (e.g., bearing grease, plastic parts), the harsh saltwater environment that these reels are used in (e.g.,trade off between improving convection and protecting the mechanical components from salt water), and the necessary dimensions and materials for the parts to perform their purposes.
From what I have read, heat transfer behavior is difficult to predict beyond the most rudimentary situations, so understanding the science is a starting point, but trial and error testing is essential.
Hopefully not too long winded, but at least I feel better now :)
-J
Most of what you're saying is on the right path J. The drag force does not create heat, it is the motion. You can crank your star down and create 40 lbs of drag just sitting there not moving will create no heat, but a light drag moving fast will get hot. The drag force and the force applied by the fish will determine how fast it moves. Conductive heat transfer depends on surface area and thickness, but the thickness can be adjusted based on the temperature difference. The formula has the term dT/s which is the temperature difference divided by the thickness which is then multiplied by the area. Increasing thickness decreases heat transfer, but increasing temperature gradient increases heat transfer. Increasing area will always increase heat transfer. The convective heat transfer is also dependant on area, but not thickness. The motion of the fluid used in convection will determine the convective heat transfer coefficient, so yes it will change the heat transfer but the area and temperature gradient will usually have a larger effect. When it comes to heat transfer area and temperature gradient are big factors, which is evident if you look at the formulas. It can be a very complicated issue with so many variables inside a fishing reel.
200 yards of line stripped from a 12/0 @ 10lbs of drag going 20mph will not generate the same amount of heat as 200 yrds stripped at 30lbs going 20mph.
If you don't believe me, hook one up to a car and try it.
Quote from: Lowprofile on November 29, 2016, 11:51:01 AM
200 yards of line stripped from a 12/0 @ 10lbs of drag going 20mph will not generate the same amount of heat as 200 yrds stripped at 30lbs going 20mph.
If you don't believe me, hook one up to a car and try it.
I believe you!
Sal
Quote from: Lowprofile on November 29, 2016, 11:51:01 AM
200 yards of line stripped from a 12/0 @ 10lbs of drag going 20mph will not generate the same amount of heat as 200 yrds stripped at 30lbs going 20mph.
If you don't believe me, hook one up to a car and try it.
I believe you. That wasn't my point though. They both create heat, due to the motion not necessarily due to the drag force. The increased drag force is a result of the surfaces being forced closer together with a greater frictional force to overcome and more energy is created when this is overcome. My only point was that the drag force itself is not the creator of the heat, it is the motion of the surfaces past each other at a molecular level. Pulling at 20 mph against 30 lbs of drag is a lot more energy.
But what we are saying is that for THE SAME drag and distance, the same amount of heat will be generated. The type of reel or drag system, and how fast the line is going out does not change the amount of work being done (pull 30lbs 100 yards).
In lowprofile's example, a different amount of heat is being generated because the drag setting has been changed.
At the same time that the heat is being generated, some of it is being transferred out of the drag into the surrounding air. This is why the reel will be hotter for the same amount of line at 30 miles an hour instead of 10. The reel had 1/3 the time to cool at 30 mph.
Also, different reels can have different final drag temps for the same real world test because:
1. the change of actual drag applied during the test (drag coefficient of friction changing, spool diameter changing, etc) are different. BTW, a good bumper test would include a drag scale at the reel end, so the variance in actual drag applied could be factored in.
2. The heat shedding properties of the reels are different.
The reason to make this distinction is to help us evaluate and modify drag systems in reels. For any specified load/distance, the same amount of heat is going to show up. The question is how does a given reel deal with the heat to maintain consistent performance and reliability.
Coefficient of friction, contact pressure, and relative velocity of the two surfaces are what determine heat generation per unit area. Contact pressure is not the same as the drag force. In lowprofile's example, a greater contact pressure is needed to achieve a higher drag force from the same washers thus increasing heat generation and temperature. If you want to reduce heat generation you can:
- reduce friction coefficients, that will reduce drag force or cause you to increase contact pressure
- reduce contact pressure, which will reduce drag force unless you make other changes such as increasing drag washer area
- The last option is to reduce the relative velocity of the two surfaces.
This doesn't answer how to increase heat transfer to remove excess heat, but it is a start in understanding the problem. The problem with a senator in this instance, is the surface area of the drag washers. The smaller area of the drag washers is an issue for heat transfer and heat generation. The smaller drag washers require more contact pressure to achieve the same drag force, which increases heat generation. At the same time the reduced area of the smaller drag washers reduces heat transfer, add on top of this the need to use a thick stack of washers which increases thickness and decreases heat transfer.
I'm curious, can anyone give a first hand account on the heat buildup from the drag of a reel such as an international that uses much larger diameter drag washers and a thinner stack? My initial guess, would be that the increase in diameter and surface area would need less contact pressure to achieve the same drag load using less washers. This would generate less heat. The larger surface area would increase heat transfer cooling the drag faster. On top of that the aluminum used to build the frame and body of the reel would act as a heat sink drawing heat away from the drag. This is just my guess, but I would love to hear if this is what has been observed fishing for large game fish.
Hi Rippin,
BTW- thanks for the reply to my earlier post- I am still struggling a bit with convection.
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 29, 2016, 06:58:28 PM
Coefficient of friction, contact pressure, and relative velocity of the two surfaces are what determine heat generation per unit area. Contact pressure is not the same as the drag force. In lowprofile's example, a greater contact pressure is needed to achieve a higher drag force from the same washers thus increasing heat generation and temperature. If you want to reduce heat generation you can:
- reduce friction coefficients, that will reduce drag force or cause you to increase contact pressure
- reduce contact pressure, which will reduce drag force unless you make other changes such as increasing drag washer area
- The last option is to reduce the relative velocity of the two surfaces.
This doesn't answer how to increase heat transfer to remove excess heat, but it is a start in understanding the problem. The problem with a senator in this instance, is the surface area of the drag washers. The smaller area of the drag washers is an issue for heat transfer and heat generation. The smaller drag washers require more contact pressure to achieve the same drag force, which increases heat generation. At the same time the reduced area of the smaller drag washers reduces heat transfer, add on top of this the need to use a thick stack of washers which increases thickness and decreases heat transfer.
The "problem" (I would say current challenge) with the star drags is that the drag system is encapsulated within the main gear. In order to handle high loads, stainless steel upgrades for the Penns were developed by folks here for the gear, gear sleeve, bridge plate, etc. These increase the strength, but probably decrease the ability to shed heat quickly by some unknown amount. One of the upgrades does includes increasing the drag surface area by adding more thinner drag washers. But since the extras surfaces are encapsulated in the same space, the heat is trapped just the same as before. My guess is that most of the heat transfer is via the spacer sleeve and star (the stars get hot, but the handles not as much). It is possible that some is traveling down to the bridge plate which is cooled by the rotating spool.
All of this customization allows the upgraded reel to run smoothly at a much higher drag setting than a stock reel. The question now is how well can ir handle a long run at this new capability.
Also I think we need to be accurate regarding heat "generation". The same amount of heat is being generated in your description, but the temperature is higher at the drag surface because the surface area is smaller. Do you agree?
Quote
I'm curious, can anyone give a first hand account on the heat buildup from the drag of a reel such as an international that uses much larger diameter drag washers and a thinner stack? My initial guess, would be that the increase in diameter and surface area would need less contact pressure to achieve the same drag load using less washers. This would generate less heat. The larger surface area would increase heat transfer cooling the drag faster. On top of that the aluminum used to build the frame and body of the reel would act as a heat sink drawing heat away from the drag. This is just my guess, but I would love to hear if this is what has been observed fishing for large game fish.
Same point as before- toal heat energy is the same, surface temp is decreased due to increase in area, right?
Somebody posted a photo of a melted nylon bushing inside of a drag chamber on a big lever drag reel. I think tightlines has posted some experience with heat damage on big lever drags. If he is reading perhaps he will share.
Most lever drag reels attach the CF washer against the spool and press a stainless drag plate against it. I believe that the CF washer has much less thermal conductivity, so the heat will first go to the drag plate. On most reels there is an additional cover to encapsulate the whole assembly. I suspect these actually inhibit convection, but the help protect the drag from contamination and acts a a heat shield for the rest of the mechanical parts. at least for awhile. Heat getting into a spinning spool is not a bad thing, but not sure how fast it would get there. According to fishing line manufacturers and contrary to popular opinion, heat below the melting point does not affect nylon line strength. So the spool may be part of the mechanism to shed the heat, but not sure how efficient these reels are at getting the heat to the spool since the CF washer will be acting as an insulator.
When I did the math (risky ;D) I got ~ 48000 joules of energy for a 400 yard run at 30 lb drag average. This equated to increasing the temp of a 100x10 mm stainless drag plate with a 20 mm hole in the center about 583 degrees F. If all the heat went to a spool, this would heat a 450 gr (about 1 lb) spool only 50 degrees F. When Avet did some 75 yard- 35 lb drag bumper drag tests, they actually heat tinted the the stainless drag plate- which is consistent with the temps described above. Straw color on stainless is around 600 degrees F. (see the thread at http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0) This would also indicate that the heat does not get to the spool quickly- at least for Avet design.
Note that it takes less than a minute to run off 400 yards at 15 MPH, so I think that in real life those screaming runs that nearly empty the reel are usually not moving as fast as we think. These reels do okay because they are not being pushed as hard in real life use as they are in parking lot tests.
Cork drag fly reels catch reasonably big tuna and billfish - usually running under 10 lbs of drag. I recently caught a 40 kilo GT that took a couple hundred yards at around 8 lbs of drag on a cork fly reel- no heat detected whatsoever. Cork has a relatively high COF, and a very low max temp rating. The good cork reels do just fine- a very large cork disc is attached to a drag plate which presses directly against the aluminum spool (the spool is the other drag surface). Since cork is such a poor thermal conductor, the heat travels through the spool which is large, highly ported and spinning fast. The good reels stay surprisingly cool. The not-so-good ones will toast the cork. So lots of convection involved here.
FWIW, I have been playing with drag design and materials a bit lately and my personal conclusion is that convection has to be a big part of a high quality solution.
Quote from: jurelometer on November 29, 2016, 09:43:44 PM
Also I think we need to be accurate regarding heat "generation". The same amount of heat is being generated in your description, but the temperature is higher at the drag surface because the surface area is smaller. Do you agree?
Quote
I'm curious, can anyone give a first hand account on the heat buildup from the drag of a reel such as an international that uses much larger diameter drag washers and a thinner stack? My initial guess, would be that the increase in diameter and surface area would need less contact pressure to achieve the same drag load using less washers. This would generate less heat. The larger surface area would increase heat transfer cooling the drag faster. On top of that the aluminum used to build the frame and body of the reel would act as a heat sink drawing heat away from the drag. This is just my guess, but I would love to hear if this is what has been observed fishing for large game fish.
Same point as before- toal heat energy is the same, surface temp is decreased due to increase in area, right?
Somebody posted a photo of a melted nylon bushing inside of a drag chamber on a big lever drag reel. I think tightlines has posted some experience with heat damage on big lever drags. If he is reading perhaps he will share.
Cork drag fly reels catch reasonably big tuna and billfish - usually running under 10 lbs of drag. I recently caught a 40 kilo GT that took a couple hundred yards at around 8 lbs of drag on a cork fly reel- no heat detected whatsoever. Cork has a relatively high COF, and a very low max temp rating. The good cork reels do just fine- a very large cork disc is attached to a drag plate which presses directly against the aluminum spool (the spool is the other drag surface). Since cork is such a poor thermal conductor, the heat travels through the spool which is large, highly ported and spinning fast. The good reels stay surprisingly cool. The not-so-good ones will toast the cork. So lots of convection involved here.
FWIW, I have been playing with drag design and materials a bit lately and my personal conclusion is that convection has to be a big part of a high quality solution.
In regards to heat generation, it is not the drag force and length of line that will give you the heat generation. Heat generation is dependent on the friction coefficient, the contact pressure (not drag force), and the relative velocity of the two surfaces. Change any of those and you will change the heat generation due to friction. That's heat generation per unit area. Alto mare showed some perforated drag washers, I would speculate that if you could reduce the amount of surface area making contact while still maintaining drag force you would reduce some heat generation. Heat is generated where the surfaces make contact. The key to that would be balancing contact pressure with surface area and dimensions of the drag washers to achieve the desired effect.
For simplicity sake if we just assume large amounts of heat generation will occur, then the next step is to transfer the heat. You are correct that convection can play a large role in the solution, but you need to get the heat to a surface that will lend itself to convection. Look at heat sinks on electronics, usually a large aluminum section with many thin fins. The reduced thickness of the fins aids in conduction to the surface while the increased surface area aids in convection. The cork fly reel example shows a good way to increase heat transfer. Using the spool as a drag surface generates the heat in a place where it can be readily removed. Using a good aluminum with large surface area and access to moving air will increase the heat transfer, the aluminum will conduct the heat to the surface where convection with the air can occur and the convective heat transfer is increased by the motion. Similar to something I speculated about large lever drag reels, the aluminum of the spool/frame/plates can be used as a heat sink to transfer heat away from the drag. That's not to say it wont still generate heat, but it could work to move the heat. I would make a guess that on senators, aluminum side pates and frames would aid in heat transfer away from the drag/gear area some. The heat needs to move by conduction, to a surface where the convection can occur. We still haven't even touched on radiation, but for this conversation I think we can leave that out. Let's not also forget, that a fishing reel being used in a climate with high temperatures will experience a drastic reduction in heat transfer due to the reduction in temperature difference compared to a reel used in a cooler climate.
I'm no expert so feel free to correct me I won't be offended, I'm just basing this on what I have learned as a mechanical engineer and my interpretation of the situation.
Quote from: rippin_lips on November 30, 2016, 03:14:37 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 29, 2016, 09:43:44 PM
Also I think we need to be accurate regarding heat "generation". The same amount of heat is being generated in your description, but the temperature is higher at the drag surface because the surface area is smaller. Do you agree?
Quote
I'm curious, can anyone give a first hand account on the heat buildup from the drag of a reel such as an international that uses much larger diameter drag washers and a thinner stack? My initial guess, would be that the increase in diameter and surface area would need less contact pressure to achieve the same drag load using less washers. This would generate less heat. The larger surface area would increase heat transfer cooling the drag faster. On top of that the aluminum used to build the frame and body of the reel would act as a heat sink drawing heat away from the drag. This is just my guess, but I would love to hear if this is what has been observed fishing for large game fish.
Same point as before- total heat energy is the same, surface temp is decreased due to increase in area, right?
Somebody posted a photo of a melted nylon bushing inside of a drag chamber on a big lever drag reel. I think tightlines has posted some experience with heat damage on big lever drags. If he is reading perhaps he will share.
Cork drag fly reels catch reasonably big tuna and billfish - usually running under 10 lbs of drag. I recently caught a 40 kilo GT that took a couple hundred yards at around 8 lbs of drag on a cork fly reel- no heat detected whatsoever. Cork has a relatively high COF, and a very low max temp rating. The good cork reels do just fine- a very large cork disc is attached to a drag plate which presses directly against the aluminum spool (the spool is the other drag surface). Since cork is such a poor thermal conductor, the heat travels through the spool which is large, highly ported and spinning fast. The good reels stay surprisingly cool. The not-so-good ones will toast the cork. So lots of convection involved here.
FWIW, I have been playing with drag design and materials a bit lately and my personal conclusion is that convection has to be a big part of a high quality solution.
In regards to heat generation, it is not the drag force and length of line that will give you the heat generation. Heat generation is dependent on the friction coefficient, the contact pressure (not drag force), and the relative velocity of the two surfaces. Change any of those and you will change the heat generation due to friction. That's heat generation per unit area. Alto mare showed some perforated drag washers, I would speculate that if you could reduce the amount of surface area making contact while still maintaining drag force you would reduce some heat generation. Heat is generated where the surfaces make contact. The key to that would be balancing contact pressure with surface area and dimensions of the drag washers to achieve the desired effect.
For simplicity sake if we just assume large amounts of heat generation will occur, then the next step is to transfer the heat. You are correct that convection can play a large role in the solution, but you need to get the heat to a surface that will lend itself to convection. Look at heat sinks on electronics, usually a large aluminum section with many thin fins. The reduced thickness of the fins aids in conduction to the surface while the increased surface area aids in convection. The cork fly reel example shows a good way to increase heat transfer. Using the spool as a drag surface generates the heat in a place where it can be readily removed. Using a good aluminum with large surface area and access to moving air will increase the heat transfer, the aluminum will conduct the heat to the surface where convection with the air can occur and the convective heat transfer is increased by the motion. Similar to something I speculated about large lever drag reels, the aluminum of the spool/frame/plates can be used as a heat sink to transfer heat away from the drag. That's not to say it wont still generate heat, but it could work to move the heat. I would make a guess that on senators, aluminum side pates and frames would aid in heat transfer away from the drag/gear area some. The heat needs to move by conduction, to a surface where the convection can occur. We still haven't even touched on radiation, but for this conversation I think we can leave that out. Let's not also forget, that a fishing reel being used in a climate with high temperatures will experience a drastic reduction in heat transfer due to the reduction in temperature difference compared to a reel used in a cooler climate.
I'm no expert so feel free to correct me I won't be offended, I'm just basing this on what I have learned as a mechanical engineer and my interpretation of the situation.
If I get something wrong here, I would appreciate being corrected as well.
I think this is our disconnect. We are making two different points:
What you are describing is the capability of the drag system to transfer kinetic energy (motion) to thermal energy (heat) For a given drag system at a given setting it will generate specific amount of conversion per revolution. Designing/setting a system for a lower level of conversion means less heat, but also less effort to stop the fish (effectively running at a lower drag)
My point is that that 10 lbs of drag (linear force) for 100 yards is a specific amount of work (4067 joules). 4067 joules of thermal energy will always be showing up, no matter what materials, surface area, coefficient of friction, force, etc. are used to get us this this level of linear force resistance (drag). There is no magic to have less heat energy show up for the same workload.
So how much does 4067 joules of energy heat up the reel parts? I weighed some parts lying around:
stainless 98-320 AT gear sleeve (26 gram) -> temp increase of 583 degrees F (this would only happen if all the heat was directed to the gear sleeve,which won't happen).
stainless jigmaster bridge, main gear, washers, gear sleeve, spacer and stainless star (110 gram) -> temp increase of 133 degrees (assumes the heat is distributed evenly- which it won't be).
These temp increases would not be that high in the real world as the reels do some amount of conduction and convection already. But the designs are not optimized for it.
I am still curious about the binding up of star drag reels. As noted before, I don't think thermal expansion of such loose fitting metal parts would explain it. The expansion is so minimal. Maybe stamp cut washers from sheet stock warping? Lots of surface tension in rolled sheet stock. Dunno....
Probably should start a separate general forum thread on drags and heat at some point.
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Way above my pay grade. My head is starting to hurt.
Quote from: Bryan Young on November 30, 2016, 10:06:13 PM
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Way above my pay grade. My head is starting to hurt.
Yeah, mine too, but don't discourage these guys, I'm taking it all in ;)
All this is simple to remedy. Just take a reel with you that can stop them dead. Lock it down, no slippage, no heat, more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap. ;D ;D
Quote from: RowdyW on November 30, 2016, 10:46:12 PM
All this is simple to remedy. Just take a reel with you that can stop them dead. Lock it down, no slippage, no heat, more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap. ;D ;D
Control your temper Rudy ;D
No senseless crap here, this is all good.
If these guys are boring simply move on and don't look ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 30, 2016, 10:58:33 PM
Control your temper Rudy ;D
No senseless crap here, this is all good.
If these guys are boring simply move on and don't look ;)
:D :D :D
Keep it coming guys, it's got my interest. Been scrounging for some high strength alloy to "try" something....
High end spinning reels(specifically the saltiga and stella) design in features that promote cooling of the drag. There is a lot of space for airflow, the spool is aluminum, and and has a large surface area ideal for radiating large amounts of heat. And from what I have read, the reels do a great job keeping the drag cool even during the hardest runs.
In a star drag, you have a limited opportunity to remove heat. All these stainless steel components do not absorb or transfer heat readily. So while they are not good for cooling, they also will not absorb as much heat in a given time period. In addition, stainless holds its strength to high temperatures. It wont matter how hot the components get, as long as the service temperature is not exceeded. While carbon fiber is vastly superior to the alternatives in its maximum service temperature, I think the typical stuff with the stiff fiberglass core is limiting performance in this case.
Anyone interested in carbon fiber reinforced graphite drag washers? I found a supplier.
http://www.ceramaterials.com/images/Ceramaterials_CFC_Composites.pdf
Quote from: RowdyW on November 30, 2016, 10:46:12 PM
..... more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap. ;D ;D
Funny I have to remind myself at times thats a big reason why I fish. But none the less I'm glad to see this thread evolve to where it's at....Jeff
It is amazing how such a seemingly simple question can evolve into such a technical response.....reminds me of the looks I get when I ask one of the engineers at work a "simple" question ::) I really enjoy this technical aspect of fishing reels....Bill
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
In addition to Adam's thoughts about looking at the CF washers, I think there are probably some opportunities for improving the cooling, maybe messing with the top hat, spacer and star design to draw more heat off the stack + heavy porting (holes) in the main gear. If the bridge plate is getting hot, maybe some porting there as well. Since the spool is spinning when all this is happening, there should be a way to use it like a fan.
BTW to loop us back around to the beginning of this thread- I saw on the Pure fishing (Penn's parent) website an article that stated HT-100 (presumably dry) will decrease in coefficient of friction as it gets hot. So Alan's test done with a dry stack should see some amount of fade as well.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
In addition to Adam's thoughts about looking at the CF washers, I think there are probably some opportunities for improving the cooling, maybe messing with the top hat, spacer and star design to draw more heat off the stack + heavy porting (holes) in the main gear. If the bridge plate is getting hot, maybe some porting there as well. Since the spool is spinning when all this is happening, there should be a way to use it like a fan.
BTW to loop us back around to the beginning of this thread- I saw on the Pure fishing (Penn's parent) website an article that stated HT-100 (presumably dry) will decrease in coefficient of friction as it gets hot. So Alan's test done with a dry stack should see some amount of fade as well.
Sal and I have discussed a finned top hat for the reels with the easy access drag. I dont know if the benefits would be worth the effort, but Id still like to see it tested.
My wife says I cant leave anything well enough alone. I cant disagree.
No discouragement here. I'm wowed by the discussion.
Pouring water or your beer on the reel is starting to sound like a perfectly reasonable solution after all. Better yet, put a fitting on the head plate so water can be flushed through the reel as needed.
-steve
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect. The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance. We are talking about the drag washers. The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers. The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel. The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple. You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves. This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers. The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself. Make sense?
I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.
Quote from: rippin_lips on December 01, 2016, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect. The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance. We are talking about the drag washers. The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers. The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel. The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple. You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves. This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers. The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself. Make sense?
I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.
Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.
With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.
Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point. That goes for me too :)
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.
Most important part of all this. If the reel is spooled with mono try to keep the water off the line, it doesn't like to be cooled fast when it is hot!
Ron
Quote from: Shark Hunter on November 24, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
Quote from: Lowprofile on November 24, 2016, 04:59:31 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.
The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.
For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different
Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.
All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: rippin_lips on December 01, 2016, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect. The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance. We are talking about the drag washers. The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers. The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel. The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple. You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves. This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers. The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself. Make sense?
I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.
Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.
With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.
Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point. That goes for me too :)
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.
I have not been following this so it might have been brought up but we also have the gears to address, the spool goes around 5 times for every revolution of the main gear on a 5:1 star drag reel. Spool diameter is also a factor.
To get accurate data we need to bench test eliminating as many variables as possable.
Quote from: Lowprofile on December 26, 2016, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on November 24, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different
Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.
All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.
Wow, that is a quite a catch. Thanks for sharing!
Those are tough fish. Nice work. Dominick
Quote from: Keta on December 26, 2016, 03:36:20 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 07:12:26 PM
Quote from: rippin_lips on December 01, 2016, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on December 01, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For an engineer, simple = no fun :)
When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design (IMHO)
Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect. The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance. We are talking about the drag washers. The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers. The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel. The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple. You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves. This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers. The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself. Make sense?
I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.
Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.
With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.
Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point. That goes for me too :)
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.
I have not been following this so it might have been brought up but we also have the gears to address, the spool goes around 5 times for every revolution of the main gear on a 5:1 star drag reel. Spool diameter is also a factor.
To get accurate data we need to bench test eliminating as many variables as possable.
Hi Lee,
At the risk of kicking a dead horse that has already been beaten to death:
For a given final drag amount (force required at the point that the line goes off the spool) the amount of energy converted from kinetic (motion) to thermal (heat), per unit of line taken is the same irregardless of spool size or gear ratio. However these things do change the drag surface pressure and velocity (AKA PV) involved at a given setting and rate of line removal. Drag material performance (mostly coefficient of friction) can vary based on the PV in addition to having the coefficient of friction changing due to heat. Different materials have different PV limits as well.
From the little that I have read on the topic, it is difficult to accurately simulate heat transfer, especially when the machinery involved does not have very tight tolerances. Field testing is recommended, even in the disclaimers in the simulation software I played with.
So no disagreements here. I just think it is useful to make it clear that a specific amount of heat is going to show up for a specific amount of fish slowing force applied at the reel. The drag system can be designed to work well in the presence of increasing heat up to some point (typically the melting point of nearby greases and plastics), and after that the drag design has to involve the transfer of heat (conduction + convection and maybe radiation?).
Carbon fiber and stainless maintains a pretty steady coefficient of friction into high temperatures. I looks like Adam is playing with drag disk materials that support higher temperatures before the resin that stiffens the carbon fiber fail. I am curious to see if this will improve performance or if we are already at the point where the limiting factor is the inability of a star drag system to effectively transfer heat.
-J.
for brakes to work at their most efficient the parts have to heat up quickly. fishing reel "brakes" is entirely different because you don't want it to perform like a traditional brake e.g. production cars whether popular all the way to hiper cars and race cars. metallic and semi-metallic are used for daily drivers because these materials heat up faster hence brakes work almost as soon as you step on the pedal. with race cars the velocity of the cars and the pressure applied to the parts is so high the "exotic" materials used heat up so fast. if you are concerned about drag fade i suggest not to "lube" the washers. this will not totally eliminate drag fade because of the limitations of the materials used but it will be less. my 2 cents
disclaimer; i'm not an engineer just things i've learn over the years whether watching races on-road and off-road and know people who are professional racers mechanics wannabes like me :D ;D etc...
tight lines!
btw please correct me if i'm wrong. i still want to learn.
My best experiance is with hydraulic cranes and winches but mechanical advantage is still mechanical advantage. A load that over powers the winch brake with one part of line does not with multiple parts of line. Heat is created by pressure and revelutions so the gear reduction should create less heat. I do not know how to justify the heat for work though, we can not create matter and energy. I need to set up my line winder and run some controled tests.
Quote from: Lowprofile on December 26, 2016, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on November 24, 2016, 08:37:55 AM
Quote from: Lowprofile on November 24, 2016, 04:59:31 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.
The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.
For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different
Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.
All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.
I'm Glad it held up for you. I'm a little concerned with it losing drag while hot. I would like to look at that insert if possible.
If the side plate was hot, You were definitely giving it a workout.
That reel has every upgrade available for a 12/0.
If you want to send it, I'll pay return shipping. Its up to you.
I can always send you some replacement drag washers if you think it needs it, and want to do it yourself.
I just want to see the insides, since I haven't been able to give mine a workout like that.
Daron
good on you Daron, we never stop learning ay, your the man, cheers donnyboat.
Quote from: Potiguar - AKA MeL B on December 27, 2016, 01:33:21 PM
for brakes to work at their most efficient the parts have to heat up quickly. fishing reel "brakes" is entirely different because you don't want it to perform like a traditional brake e.g. production cars whether popular all the way to hiper cars and race cars. metallic and semi-metallic are used for daily drivers because these materials heat up faster hence brakes work almost as soon as you step on the pedal. with race cars the velocity of the cars and the pressure applied to the parts is so high the "exotic" materials used heat up so fast. if you are concerned about drag fade i suggest not to "lube" the washers. this will not totally eliminate drag fade because of the limitations of the materials used but it will be less. my 2 cents
disclaimer; i'm not an engineer just things i've learn over the years whether watching races on-road and off-road and know people who are professional racers mechanics wannabes like me :D ;D etc...
tight lines!
btw please correct me if i'm wrong. i still want to learn.
Hi Mel,
Learning myself as well.
Agree there is a difference between car brake vs reel drag requirements. With a car, it is easy to use tactile and visual feedback to apply the desired amount of force at each moment. With a reel drag, we are relying on a mostly fixed setting. Also it is important to have as little differences possible between the static (stopped to moving) and dynamic (in motion) coefficient of friction. And we don't want the coefficient. Of friction to change dramatically.
According to Penn, dry carbon fiber fades. I think at this point we don't know how much dry vs. greased fades at a given temp. If I had to bet, I would bet that greased might fade more, but there are so many benefits to a greased drag, it would be hard to give it up.
Quote from: Keta on December 27, 2016, 02:09:25 PM
My best experiance is with hydraulic cranes and winches but mechanical advantage is still mechanical advantage. A load that over powers the winch brake with one part of line does not with multiple parts of line. Heat is created by pressure and revelutions so the gear reduction should create less heat. I do not know how to justify the heat for work though, we can not create matter and energy. I need to set up my line winder and run some controled tests.
Not disagreeing with your observations, just the conclusions. Apples and oranges. Changing the crane gearing or leverage is probably changing the amount of friction or time involved. X amount of energy will be required to lift the object Y feet. Any heat showing up is probably additional applied energy converted by friction in the system. So different configurations will be more efficient than others. In the reel case, the friction is what we want. The goal is to convert motion into heat. No heat means the fish is not taking line or we are in free spool.
If you are successful in disproving the laws of thermodynamics that go all the way back to Newton, you will probably be the first AT.com member to win the Nobel prize for physics. Who cares about fishing reels. ;D.
I understand "work" and energy and the law of conservation of mater and energy , I just do not understand why the gear reduction does not help.
if velocity and pressure is constant and materials used are the same these things spool height gear size etc doesn't matter. my 2 cents...
some interesting reading;
https://quantumprogress.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/heat-and-the-work-done-by-friction/
http://www.mopar.ca/en/partsandaccessories/heat-and-brake-fade.html
tight lines!
Quote from: jurelometer on December 27, 2016, 06:07:59 PM
I think at this point we don't know how much dry vs. greased fades at a given temp
i'm waiting for Alan T.'s ungreased washers static drag test, effect of excessive friction heat on the reel's drag setting...
Quote from: Potiguar - AKA MeL B on December 27, 2016, 09:07:53 PM
if velocity and pressure is constant and materials used are the same these things spool height gear size etc doesn't matter. my 2 cents...
But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
Quote from: Keta on December 27, 2016, 09:38:49 PM
But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
on lever drag reels with carbon fiber on spool side, whether glued clipped etc, yes, my 2 cents.
Quote from: Potiguar - AKA MeL B on December 27, 2016, 09:40:30 PM
Quote from: Keta on December 27, 2016, 09:38:49 PM
But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
on lever drag reels with carbon fiber on spool side, whether glued clipped etc, yes, my 2 cents.
On star drag reels too. Less RPM at the same fpm for the taller spool. A spool that has a line circunferance of 4" will spin twice as fast as one with a circumferance of 8" if the line is going out at the same speed.
Quote from: Keta on December 27, 2016, 07:54:37 PM
I understand "work" and energy and the law of conservation of mater and energy , I just do not understand why the gear reduction does not help.
I am as qualified as a physicist as I am a mechanical engineer (NOT!), but this is how I see it:
Let's take two theoretical reels that are identical, except one has a spool height twice the other. Now both reels end up applying an average X lbs of drag for Y yards from a full spool. The reel with the tall spool required twice the pressure on the drag stack to achieve X lbs of drag but only had to spin half as many revolutions for Y yards. Multiply by two, divide by two- back where we started... the same formula can be applied to gear reduction on a star drag.
However this does not mean that all spool, gear, drag stack combinations will perform the same. And a better performing drag system might be cooler at the end of an identical run - but not because less heat conversion occurred (if we are doing a fair test), but because the system provided a larger capacity "heat sink" or did a better job of transferring the heat to somewhere else.
-J
at the end of the day there's only one way to find out do the tests under "lab conditions"...4 reels, 2 lever drags e.g. 1 MXJ and the other HXJ - 2 star drags, 1 4/0 senator and the other 9/0 senator. the results will definitely not lie. anybody has two line winders willing to do the and all the reels? ooops i might have a problem again because i'm posting too much good bye...LMAO! ;D :D ;) :)
I have a theory that the drag grease may be contributing to the loss of drag pressure, as it heats up.
QUESTION : Did the 112H reel in the video return to it's original 8lb drag setting, after it cooled off ?
HYPOTHESIS : A greased carbon-fiber drag will be smoother, but a non-greased carbon-fiber drag will perform better at high temperature
I think the test should be conducted this way . . .
(1) 4 reels . . . 2 identical Star Drag reels ( 1 greased / 1 dry ) . . . 2 identical Lever Drag reels ( 1 greased / 1 dry )
(2) Measure them at identical RPM, for identical periods of time.
(3) Calculate relative Spool RPM and adjust winder RPM & Time to simulate Speed & "run lengths" being made by actual fish ( Up to 70 mph for a sailfish )
a. - Sharks - Small, Medium, & Large (Up to 50 mph - MAKO - See Chart)
b. - Tuna - Up to & including Bluefin Tuna (45mph)
c. - Billfish - Sailfish (70 mph), White Marlin (48 mph), Swordfish (40 mph), Blue Marlin (50mph)
d. - Wahoo (60 mph)
(4) Low, Medium, & High speeds
(5) Chart the results
(6) Draw conclusions from the data
Tight Lines !
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*Ja-mJZLPCjlOTIiNd-S-mA.jpeg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/67/0e/9a/670e9a0190a7b4517e89a8a38c80f654.jpg)
(https://beachchairscientist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/fastestfishinthesea.jpg)
Cool info.
I have always believed both the Wahoo and the Shortfin Mako Shark can attain speeds closer to 60mph not 48mph. Read it in some paper somewhere.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 12, 2017, 01:16:40 AM
Cool info.
I have always believed both the Wahoo and the Shortfin Mako Shark can attend speeds closer to 60mph not 48mph. Read it in some paper somewhere.
It's very possible . . . I saw many different "numbers" online.
I'd really like to see a test laid out the way I spec'd out above .
A 300yd run @ 60mph would take less than 10.3 seconds ( 60 mph + 88 ft/sec and 900 / 88 = 10.227272 Seconds ) . . .
The reel in the video was subjected to heating for a longer period of time, at an unknown speed, which doesn't reflect what would happen in a "real world" fishing situation.
Tight Lines !
Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!
Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...
Quote from: JnM Fishing on November 22, 2017, 08:43:31 PM
Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!
Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...
My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag.
Quote from: Three se7ens on November 23, 2017, 04:04:08 AM
Quote from: JnM Fishing on November 22, 2017, 08:43:31 PM
Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!
Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...
My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag.
Do you make a drag stack for the 12/0 ??????
Quote from: JnM Fishing on November 23, 2017, 05:23:19 AM
Quote from: Three se7ens on November 23, 2017, 04:04:08 AM
Quote from: JnM Fishing on November 22, 2017, 08:43:31 PM
Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!
Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...
My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag.
Do you make a drag stack for the 12/0 ??????
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13432.0 I have kits in stock for most, PM me to place an order.
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on November 20, 2016, 08:04:58 PM
Jeff, as I understand drag fade it is the effect of the drag washers heating up during a long fight, by changing to carbon fiber from asbestos less fade is realized and when you add a drag grease this helps even further, allowing longer fights by reducing the heat causing friction....I know little about the 16VSX, but with a larger drag surface of the drag disc, carbon fiber and grease I would think the fight could be even longer than traditional star drags. I can only guess but the 16vsx surface would be more surface than a stock 114H ?....Going to a 7+1 adds even more surface....JMO I am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in...... Bill
Another issue that would come into play would be the temperature range of the grease in question. From my time pulling apart wheel hubs in Iraq, I can tell you the lower the temp range of the grease the greater the likelihood it will fail sooner. I have seen wheel bearing grease flow out of wheel hubs when they came off the road. We switched to an unauthorized synthetic grease that changed everything. No more grease & bearing failures. it did not reduce our need to repack constantly due to dust and debris of that environment. This of course is an extreme condition, but say you were using bacon grease (something that would fail pretty quickly as the temp shot up), your reel would suffer from it as the viscosity of the grease changed.
A grease with a low viscosity would not hold up long against your shark. Where as a grease rated to 500+ degrees F would do just fine and not be affected. When we use Cal's or any other Drag grease what range is it rated for? I haven't been able to find any specs on Cal's or other drag grease. I did try some synthetic high temp grease on a couple of reels years ago, I didn't see any marked improvements and could not justify using it further. That said I am using smaller reels and not going after Sharks and other fish capable of scorching a reel. Would it make a difference? Maybe, over a prolonged fight. I think it would be the temp range of different drag greases may make a difference to some but to the 99% no noticeable difference.
I also think, and am sure of, that it weakens as it heats up. For one, because metals expand as they heat up, with all other factors combined..