I had a 300 in my early teens, and I remember how easily it turned and how precise and even it felt when retrieving. The new-to-me 300 (circa 1971) that I just picked up on eBay wasn't like that. Not terrible, but it felt a little gummy and the sound of the gears seemed not quite right. This turned into my first-ever Mitchell clean and lube last night, but it seems I've made it worse. I used Penn blue grease, and now the reel feels like it's been packed with axle grease. Very stiff to turn, and even the AR clicker is muted. This reel obviously wants a different lube, but what to use? Is there anything that won't require a mail order, something like a light lithium-based white grease than might be available locally? I'm also wondering if there might be a shortcut at this point - maybe clean out the cover plate and gears, but instead of completely disassembling the body again, just add a couple drops of oil to the slide. Any advice welcome!
Quick Shortcut:
Remove the 4 gears, oscillation slide, slide track, A/R assembly, spool shaft --
Drop the parts into a small jar of lacquer thinner, or lighter fluid -- let set for maybe 15 minutes --
Shake carefully so as to not break the jar -- rinse off the cleaner -- should have clean, shiny parts now --
Use the cleaner on the inside of the casing to remove every bit of grease -- also inside the spool shaft barrel and groove --
Make up a mix of about 2 parts synthetic oil to 1 part Penn grease -- use this sparingly on the moving gear and slider parts -- no grease on the A/R, gear pivots, or spool shaft -- just a few drops of oil well spread --
Assemble, test for function.
These reels require very thin brass shimming washers to adjust the gears, rotor which is connected to the pinion, baffle plate, and a couple of other spots. Attention must be paid to where these shims were before you disassembled the reel -- or just experiment with a few combinations to get it right for proper smooth gear meshing.
A really good oil for this reel, and any other reel is TSI321. It can be used by itself with no grease. You must send off for it. Like many things on our site -- you will not find it locally, I do not believe.
Do not use Lithium -- and if shims are needed, just let me know.
Best,
Fred
Did you remove the rotor? It needs oil there. Also oil the spool shaft.
That's all we had growing up. I went thru them by the hundreds. I used them up until 1980 in saltwater only. Hundreds of Spanish Makeral were caught with my 300's.
Quote from: handi2 on January 15, 2017, 05:51:42 PM
Did you remove the rotor? It needs oil there.
I used the blue Penn grease on the rotor. Is it possible that's the problem - did I use grease in places I should have used oil instead? Based on the Mitchell museum video, it looks like practically everything gets grease.
Quote from: foakes on January 15, 2017, 05:44:18 PM
Make up a mix of about 2 parts synthetic oil to 1 part Penn grease -- use this sparingly on the moving gear and slider parts -- no grease on the A/R, gear pivots, or spool shaft -- just a few drops of oil well spread --
Thanks Fred, that took care of it. It's exactly how I remember it now. This reel looks and feels so nice, I almost hate to go fishing with it. ;D
Basszilla...you'll be amazed at the difference in feel you can get in a reel just by adjusting lube viscosity. Congrats on your first tune up! 8)
Glad it worked out for you, BZ --
Plus you gained a little experience by doing it a couple of times until you got it right and were satisfied.
Good reels...
Best,
Fred
Here's another 300 that I bought, arrived today. Just want to ask a quick question.
The first photo below shows the two reels next to each other. The reel that just arrived has the cover plate removed. Is it normal for the earlier models to have a different shape to the bail like this? The first reel is circa '71; the open one is early '60s I think.
Also, when I opened the new reel for inspection, the first thing I saw was the head shim hanging out. The last three photos show this. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's the wrong size shim. Either that, or the side I can't see is broken apart. I don't feel anything wrong with the motion of the head, this was just another case of sluggish action and gummy grease. I guess I have to expect wrong/missing parts from time to time when buying these old Mitchells. The seller had multiple reels for sale, so he might have parts. I'll contact him and see. It's all good. ;D
There are variations in bails, over the years, BZ --
The shim is distorted -- another is needed.
You should pop off the rotor to check if it is veoken or bent, and why?
But either way -- replacement is in order.
If the seller does not have any -- just let me know, and I will send you an assortment at no charge.
Best,
Fred
I mix Penn Oil & Penn Grease to thin the Grease.
Mike
The shim also looks too big. It may have been hitting the main gear. Ive done the same and it didn't work.
You may find 1 to 3 shims under the rotor. If you get a reel that hasn't been messed with. You will tell if you do by the blobs of peanut butter looking grease.
Quote from: foakes on January 17, 2017, 05:46:54 AM
There are variations in bails, over the years, BZ --
The shim is distorted -- another is needed.
You should pop off the rotor to check if it is veoken or bent, and why?
But either way -- replacement is in order.
If the seller does not have any -- just let me know, and I will send you an assortment at no charge.
Thanks Fred, very nice of you to offer. After looking at the seller's items again, I think it's probably a pawn shop. Not likely he will have parts. I'll try to get to this tonight, need to take the rotor off and clean all the parts so I can see what's going on. If I need the shim, I'll insist on at least reimbursing your costs. Thanks again!
Not necessary, or needed --
Only cost would be an envelope and a stamp -- just glad to help.
And someday soon, you will be in a position of opportunity and knowledge to help someone else on our site.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: bluefish69 on January 17, 2017, 02:37:18 PM
I mix Penn Oil & Penn Grease to thin the Grease.
That's exactly what I did on the first reel, Mike. I also used a pen oiler with Teflon oil in a couple spots. Works great now, can't wait to get it on the water!
OK, I got into the second reel this evening. It was a lot more work than the first. When I first opened it for inspection yesterday, I noticed the grease had a strong smell. It was odd, kind of like putty. Tonight I discovered that's the way grease smells when it's been mixed with a little water and allowed to sit in an aluminum case for months or years. In addition to dried remnants of the factory grease that had never been removed, there was a tough greenish-gray scale on some of the parts that was really difficult to scrape off. All in all, I probably spent 4-5 hours getting it cleaned and lubed.
About the distorted shim, it turned out to be the right size, and there isn't any damage to the surrounding parts. Someone must have gone in and simply bent the unsupported portion of the shim forward for some reason. It can't turn 360° like this, but I reused it so everything could be reassembled for now. I'd like to replace it eventually.
There's another issue that needs to be resolved. This reel is very noisy when cranking. In fact, the gears make so much noise, it's hard to tell whether the AR clicker is engaged. It's not a noise like metal on metal, more like when the rear differential wears out on the family Chevy. I'm 95% sure it's the pinion gears doing this, so maybe they're not meshing correctly. There are two shims under the pinion in the cover and one under the rotor. This is all the same as the first reel I bought. The gears themselves look good to my untrained eye. Any ideas?
It is just the shims, BZ --
While not true with Penn, DAM Quick, or ABU -- on this Mitchell series -- it is necessary, particularly after use and service -- to maybe add an extra new shim or two under the head rotator gear -- or the pinion.
Or to take one of these away sometimes. Occasionally, the wear has been so bad that up to 4 shims are required under the head rotor.
Picture if you will, how the pinion and head gear interact. Now realize that they have worn down or become microscopically jagged on the edges. After a good service, they are now not meshing like when they were born.
Just need to move the rotor head gear slightly away from the pinion using some shims, along with your new lubrication. You will know when you have it right -- because the reel will perform as when new immediately. What you are doing, is very slightly moving the gears away from each other by using spacers as appropriate.
These shims do not rotate -- they are used as spacers.
I'll be glad to send some out tomorrow -- enough for both of your reels.
I know this may be hard to believe that such a tiny thing will make that much difference -- but that is the way it works.
Best Regards,
Fred
Thanks, PM sent.
I tried loosening the rotor nut as a test to see if moving it out might help, but no go. Still noisy. So, maybe it does need more (or less) shimming under the pinion. One thing I noticed is that this second reel has considerably more end play at the rotor. That bugs me a little, but I'm not sure it has anything to do with the noise.
Say, why is there a screw at the butt end of the reel body? Is that just a way to cover the hole that was made during the machining process? The steel seat doesn't appear to be removable.
Jack
Good morning, Jack --
That is the reason there were different types of greases inside the body casing -- along with the original factory dried up gunk -- that is a grease port.
Idea was for a fisherman to be able to add grease to the reel easily.
Probably better than nothing -- however, this leads to a lot of assumptions that as long as one can grease the reel and not hear or feel what is going on inside -- all is well.
Sort of like instead of changing the motor oil in your car -- just keep pumping in new oil until the red low oil warning light goes out -- paying no attention to how much, or the mixing of various types of greases.
Or in the case of a reel, not actually applying the right amount of grease where it needs to go sparingly -- but properly -- for peak functioning.
Got your PM, will send the shims.
Best,
Fred
That's actually kinda funny, thinking about someone just filling up the reel with grease from the back.
One more question - What primarily determines the end play at the center shaft? The shaft on this second reel moves in and out a lot more than the first one. That translates to slop at the spool. The shim behind the rotor isn't supposed to also have a washer, right? This one has all three washers (two bronze, one steel) on the outer side of the rotor. Should one of those be next to the shim?
As long as the line lay on the spool is even -- you are fine.
There could be wear on the oscillator slide, pin, or gear -- but it should work OK.
Sometimes parts have been switched around with other parts that could be slightly different.
Without having the reel on the bench -- it is sometimes just a guess based on previous experience.
Brass shims are for spacing and friction reducing -- steel washers are for snugging up against a housing, rotor, etc.-- with a hex nut for strength.
Sometimes you need to play around with the number of shims -- but no steel washer goes inside the casing where the rotor gear interacts with the pinion.
Sounds like you are doing well with these -- and learning -- but if you get stuck, you can send it to one of the repair guys on site, or myself. We can switch parts around and tune it to get peak performance.
Best,
Fred
Funny how it's the little things that create confusion. I finally figured out how the shimming and spacing works.
The distance from the head to the body isn't determined by 49A, even though that's called a "shim to adjust head and housing." The head-to-body distance is actually determined by 49B, called "shims to adjust head and baffle plate." I didn't understand this until this morning, when I discovered that the washer on top of 49B rests on the shoulder of the steel tube. I was trying to figure out what keeps the whole assembly from being crushed together when the baffle nut is tightened. The washer represents a fixed position relative to the body, so it's the shims under the washer that push the head toward the body and fix that distance. 49A is selected to simply fill the gap on the other side. It minimizes end play and provides an anti-wear surface.
After conducting a few more tests by moving things around, I think the noisy retrieve is the result of insufficient engagement by the pinion gear. If I'm right, the pinion will need to be shimmed away from the cover. After the parts come in, I'll see if my novice analysis is correct. :-\
Beautiful weather here today, and predicted for tomorrow too. Unfortunately, I don't quite have everything together yet to take my daughter fishing. I did find a lake nearby that's renowned for crappie though. I think she'll like that. ;D
Almost forgot, I eliminated the excessive end play at the spool by swapping out the spindle. The original spindle must be worn down internally where the spring fingers hold it down.
I had one of my 300s on the water this weekend. It was like visiting a long lost friend. Many thanks to everyone for taking the time to walk me through this. ;D
It sounds like your efforts were well worth it. I too really enjoy fishing with a well tuned reel...especially if I did the tuning. Congrats on a job well done! 8)
Quote from: basszilla on January 18, 2017, 06:06:31 AM
Picture if you will, how the pinion and head gear interact. Now realize that they have worn down or become microscopically jagged on the edges. After a good service, they are now not meshing like when they were born.
Just need to move the rotor head gear slightly away from the pinion using some shims, along with your new lubrication. You will know when you have it right -- because the reel will perform as when new immediately. What you are doing, is very slightly moving the gears away from each other by using spacers as appropriate.
After reading this thread I remembered I had a 301 that sounded like a Nazi MG 42 when it was cranked...even with the anti-reverse off! I popped the side cover off and pulled the pinion off the post. Sure enough...there were no shims under the pinion. I didn't have any shims with an O.D. small enough to not bump into the main gear. I had a regular brass washer small enough, but it was so thick the pinion and rotor head gear crammed together barely movable. I needed to split the difference...somewhere between nothing and 40 thousandths. This is where my break for jello and whipped cream paid off. I looked at that whipped cream lid and saw the light...grabbed my caliper and checked that lid...it was 20 thousandths! I cut out a reasonable lookin' shim with an exacto knife and slipped it under the pinion.
Success! The reel feels and sounds much better, thanks fellas. 8)
Shim work on the 300 & related reels can be time-consuming and a lot of folks don't understand it. My pet peeve--and it's happened a couple of times--is finding loose shims inside the body. Got a 300A opened up right now, and, sure enough, when I opened the cover, there was one shim under the pinion gear and another of the same size stuck in the grease on the cover under the main gear. Was it somebody in the past who just didn't pay attention to the shims and dropped one off into the body while leaving one on the post? How can you slide the main gear on with a loose shim staring you in the face as you do so? The grease didn't look real old, so I'm thinking it can't be something a pretty French mademoiselle did during assembly. So, now, on reassembly, I'll have to take a 50-50 chance and put either 1 or 2 shims under the pinion and hope I guess right the 1st time; if not, then you gotta crack it open again & try the other way.
(Whew, I feel better now that I've got that off my chest.)
Frank
If you open a Mitchell reel and find 3 blobs of stiff peanut butter looking grease you got a good one. Its never been messed with. :D
Quote from: mo65 on January 15, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Basszilla...you'll be amazed at the difference in feel you can get in a reel just by adjusting lube viscosity. Congrats on your first tune up! 8)
Very True!!