Reel Repair by Alan Tani

here's the short version.....

1. first, assemble the bridge, main gear, drag washers and all metal washers up to and including the tension spring (#8A) and set this aside. if you grease the drag washers, it will not fall apart.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_00_00_1.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_01_01_3.jpeg)

2. start with a bare side plate. install the eccentric, the eccentric spring and the eccentric lever (freespool lever).

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_7_58_52_0.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_7_58_53_1.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_7_58_53_2.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_7_58_53_3.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_7_58_53_4.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_18_04.jpeg)

3. there are four bridge screws. two are threaded at just the tip. the clutch springs ride up and down on these. two are threaded the entire length. don't mix them up.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_00_00_0.jpeg)

insert the four bridge screws.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_00_00_2.jpeg)

cover two screws with your left index finger, cover two with your left middle finger. the side plate should be oriented so that the free spool lever is closest to the palm of your hand.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_00_00_3.jpeg)

note that you can now flip over the site plate and play with the guts of the reel without the screws falling out. you do not need to use masking tape anymore.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_00_00_4.jpeg)

4. flip the side plate over and look at the empty guts. install the clutch springs.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_01_00_0.jpeg)

install the pinion gear and yoke as a unit.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_01_00_1.jpeg)

install the eccentric jack.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_01_00_2.jpeg)

install the bridge/main gear/drag assembly. orient the bridge plate to it's final position just to get your bearings. now rotate the bridge plate 90 degrees counter-clockwise.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_01_01_4.jpeg)

install the dog.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_02_12_0.jpeg)

rotate the bridge plate clockwise until it covers three of the bridge screws. now continue to rotate the bridge plate until it covers just half of the last and final bridge screw.  push the bridge down firmly against the plastic side plate. 

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_02_12_1.jpeg)

see the small gap??????? this is where the dog spring goes. take a deep breath. hold it. now insert the dog spring in through the gap and gently push it down into position with your index finger. be careful not to let it fly off into neverland. ok, it's in. breathe.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_02_12_2.jpeg)

6. rotate the bridge plate clockwise until it lines up with the bride screws. hear the click?

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_02_12_3.jpeg)

cinch down each screw. check to see that the freespool lever works. check the anti-reverse mechanism. when the reel is finally assembled

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_02_13_4.jpeg)

you need to make sure you can get 20#'s of drag.   if not,one of the keyed metal washers is probably not seated properly. you have to do this all over again.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_50_2.jpeg)

Quote
i have a 114 that is in pieces. It is identical, no?

almost....

here's the dog.  now, this is important.  note how the point of the dog is not symmetrical.  the longer or "sharper" end goes against the ratchet gear for the gear sleeve.  see the difference?  get it backwards and the handle will go flying back in your hand.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_03_0.jpeg)

and here's your dog spring.  doesn't look like much, does it.  i'll tell you, though.  i've lost dozens of those other tiny dog springs.  never lost one of these!

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_03_3.jpeg)

and here's what it looks like just before you close it up.  everything else, before and after, is the same. 

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_03_1.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_03_2.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_03_4.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_49_0.jpeg)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/0/1_05_05_09_8_03_50_1.jpeg)

Quote

Alan, I recently bought 5 used 114H 6.0's and have rebuilt 4 successfully. For some reason one of them I continue to have problems with the anti-reverse mechanism. Getting everything back in order or so it seems but the reel goes forwards and backwards once i seem to have it assembled.. is there something u suggest i really concentrate on when putting it back together?? peter

does it click at all?

if not, first thought is that the dog is binding up.  as you are looking at the right side plate, the bridge screw that holds the dog in position is the one in the upper left.  try backing it off a quarter to half turn and see if works.

if it does click, then the dog is not catching.  make sure the dog is not upside down.  make sure you do not have damage to the dog or the ratchet part of the gear sleeve, and make sure you do not have a left handed gear sleeve.  hey, don't laugh.  it's happened before.  let me know.  alan

Quote

I am in the process of rebuilding a penn 14/0 and I had a couple of quick questions if you dont mind.

1) are the 2 gears on the spool itself supposed to have any play in  them? The reel I just took apart the 2 toothed gears move a little? Is that normal and should they be locked in place?

2) the handle had quite a bit of play in it and I was looking at the gears and they all seem to be in relatively good shape. What could be causeing this play in the handle?

3) I cannot get the actual reel bearings out from the outer shell. Is there a trick to this or do you just recommend buying complete hole bearings. If I do this, do you know if they come with the outer shell/


thanks very much

yes, what you are seeing is something called gear lash.  there is typically alot of play in these old penn gears.  the result is a fair amount of play when you move the handle forward and back.

the axial (lateral) play in the handle is from the loose gear sleeve.  this is different than gear lash.  to eliminate the play in the gear sleeve, you have to pull the pin, remove the gear sleeve and place washers underneath.  that should take care of the up and down motion of the gear sleeve. 

and finally, the bearing.  when they are badly corroded, they can be impossible to remove.  if they don't pop out easily, it might just be best to buy new ones.  alan


[/quote]

If this is the short version, is there a long version?

No long one. All of the senator rebuild procedures are the same except for the 113HN. You can use the 111 tutorial and disregard the part about Dremelling the side plate. The common modification to all of them is to replace the fiber washer [#4] under the main gear with the appropriate HT-100 washer.

Quote from: norcal pescador on December 03, 2010, 04:08:44 AM
No long one. All of the senator rebuild procedures are the same except for the 113HN. You can use the 111 tutorial and disregard the part about Dremelling the side plate. The common modification to all of them is to replace the fiber washer [#4] under the main gear with the appropriate HT-100 washer.

Thanks, Rob! I had no idea that the teardown was the same. I managed using this tutorial but it was a bit frustrating. I think it works. This was my first teardown. I may order the replacement washers, but I don't have an appropriate rod at this point, so I will wait for now. I do appreciate the help!

No problem! Most of the conventional Penns operate the same way so they rebuild the same way. Go to mysticparts.com and look up the "Conventional" list under "Find the Parts". All of those reels listed are designed the same, so once you do a few, including the senators, you can do any of them.
Have fun!

Rob

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

For this reel 113h/114h, what is a realistic drag # to expect with the 5 stack ht-100 upgrade?

my 113h gives me 22# and my 114h gives me 26#, each just a little shy of the advertised max.

Quote from: norcal pescador on January 15, 2011, 02:37:39 AM
my 113h gives me 22# and my 114h gives me 26#, each just a little shy of the advertised max.

How does one test the # drag? I tried to find it on the site but have not been alble to yet. Perhaps you could link me to the proper thread.

shimano makes a spring scale that goes to 20 pounds.  that's what i use.

Hello i have the 114h reel it was sounding rough so stripped it ,cleaned it ,but now having a problem putting it back together ,what is the sequence for adding the  metal washers .as i am not getting any drag ,as i set the brake the line still comes of the reel the keyed metal washers are set properly as far as i an see,

See http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1769.0.  Same sequence, different washer size.

Just to say thanks for your help ,all back together now .

what happened the first go around?

wonder if you can help.
Done some scanning but cant seem to find the right answer.
got a penn senator 114 - some of the gear teeth broke, got a replacement part, installed, but now the reel wont freespool.  got another 114 so compared the two, there seems to be nothing missing or tight or loose, any ideas.
many thanks

Do you have any play from the spool when you move it side to side?

theres no sideways play.

love your quote.
B

Try  loosening up the left side bearing until you feel a little movement with the spool. On this reels you should always have a little movement when you move the spool side to side. Let me know if that helps.

Heyyyy, fantastic, thats done the trick completely.
Ive waited a long time before i got the replacement part, then when it didnt freespool in spite of being taken apart several times i laid the reel to one side.  So many thanks, really appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMX42pwdMjI
A little video of a very enjoyable sea fishing trip inland - not far from where i live.
bertie

Glad it worked out for you, what part of the world are you from? Nice video.

Hi everyone!
MAJOR newb here to overhauling reels! I've "aquired" an old 113 senator, no "h" or "hlw" or anything like that :'(
Thanks to Alan, who gave me the link to the 111 senator, I have everything apart (I didn't know the Star Drag Wheel unscrewed :P).
Well, the washers kind of "fell apart", so I have questions:
1) Washers: 3-fiber washers/2-spring washers/2-brass washers (1-keyed)/1-spacer/1-looks like a little hat or button?
   Seems like I"m missing some washers? I don't have any washers that have outside "teeth" (slotted?)
2) Seems like when I got the main gear off the bridge with sleeve, as I was wiping the junk out, looks like there could have been some kind of tiny
   fiber washer there. Am I right? or was it a regular fiber washer like the other washers?
3) I have a total of only 2 springs that are the same in width and height, I think I'm supposed to have 6??!! Hmm....seems like the guy who bragged he
    overhauled it, "must have had some extra parts" >:(.

*I saw on this thread and the 111 senator thread, that you guys switched out the washer set with something better.
Kind of anxious to do that, since I'm afraid of getting the wrong washers/parts for this older reel. 
Should I be doing the washer set up for the 111 or the 113h? and can I use the washers Rob mentioned, so I dont' have to dremel the side plate?!
Thanks in advance, and especially to Alan, that got me started...(ugh...or is that a good thing?!) ;D ;D
Aloha,
metalman
p.s. I was VERY scared to do this, don't want to "ruin" anything or just get plain STUCK, but being broke, kind of forced to learn (which I wanted to do anyway, so I can fix my reels and help my friends out (pay it forward kind of thing) :)

you can use the 5 metal and 5 carbon fiber washer stack inside the main gear.   the drag washers are penn ht-100 $6-60's.  for the drag washers UNDER the main gear, i had been using the thicker #6-113.  that is why i had to dremmel the side plate.  dawn from smoothdrag.com has a thinner washer that will hold up under the pressure.  send a pm if you want a set.  as far as breaking something goes, it will happen eventually.  don't sweat it, though.  we all went through it. 

Hey Guys,
I just finished putting in the dog spring for the 2nd time, and it went in "ok". I noticed while I was doing it, it seemed like the "gap" was a little tight
for the spring. On the schematics for my original 113, it has the dog and the kind of spring (slinky spring) like the 111 and the 113h, but the molded housing on the right side plate that all this is going into, isn't molded like that >:(!!! It's molded like the pic on the 114 on this thread ??? It has that little molded button on the left side of the dog. When I first took this reel apart, it had the dog and the spring like the 114 pics show!  :P
So...which spring is it that I'm supposed to use ??? I guess the original 113 is like a hybrid between the 111/113h and the 114??
Seems like I lost that 114 looking dog spring, but I still have the dog.

Thanks for your help,
Metalman
p.s. yeesh, I think learning to WELD was easier!!! :P
;D ;D ;D

Hmmmm ....
If the dog looks like it should go in the 114h (with both sides flat) then a flat brass spring. If it has a cutout (recess) for a coil spring then that's what I would recommend.  Do you have access to any brass or stainless sheet metal stock? If so, you could try to make a flat spring into a slightly open "L" shape. Alan probably has a better idea. ;D
Let us know how things work.
Rob

Rob,
sorry for the late reply :) I went to the local store near me and got the dog and dog spring (and 1 extra). The dog is 2x bigger than the dog I took out of there. My old dog didn't have a number stamped on it, and this new dog has stamped "15-114H".
I'm guessing that I have an old 113, because this reel had black side plates and only says "Penn Senator 4/0" I doesn't say 113, or 113H or anything else.
So I got the schematics for the 4/0 113 Senator.
When I get home from work today, I"ll take the reel apart again, and try the old dog and the flat-sheet dog spring.
Mahalo,
Metalman

Metalman, I think that you are purchasing the wrong parts for your reel, the spring on a 113 is part #14-99 and the dog #15-99. I've never seen a flat spring on a 113, it is usually a coiled spring. Hope this helps, Sal :)

Sal, thanks for posting. Dude, I'm trying EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! :'(
I've tried the dog and spring like you said, and THAT is what they show in the schematic for the 113, but the right side plate ISN'T like that!!
Instead of having the "gap" to fit the spring in, it has a little post, like the one on the 114h, that the flat spring goes around. When I took it apart, it had the dog and flat dog spring like the 114h, but the dog was just 1/2 the size. It's 3:03 am and I'm so upset at myself for not figuring this out, I'm REALLLLLLY tempted to ask Alan how much he would charge to overhaul this thing, and tell me what I'm doing wrong!!! Not much money to do that, but emotions are getting the best of me :(
Well, I better go catch a couple hours of sleep, and then off to work....
thanks Sal,
bert aka Metalman

Bert, don't let it get to you. Yes it is frustating at times but rewarding in the end. I'm a little puzzled from what you're explaining, do you think you could post a picture of the plate? :-\

Ok...it'll take me a little time, but I'll try it. I used to be good at pics, but now that the home computer is down, I have to use my wife's laptop. I have to upload the software tomorrow.
Thanks Sal, I know it'll be rewarding, that's why I tried different things. What's taking me about 6 hours so far (not mentioning running all over town a few times to get different parts and to add another 6 hours or more, by the time I finish), you guys can do within an hour...
But hey, as long as I get help here, I'm game :) !!!
thanks,
bert

Go get some sleep Bert!

Not using the computer or software that I'm used to (computer died and Vista doesn't work with Powertoys Resizer), so I hope the pics are good enough for you to see...
Thought all day about you guys helping me, so I'm SOOO wanting to do this on my own, with your help, just hope you have the patience to go
step-by-step with me  :-[!!!!!!!!

I tried a few times to upload the pics, but the file size was too large, so I did it again, then again. Now it says my "upload folder" is full. How do I delete that folder and start anew?? (where did all those pictures go??)
bert

get an account at photobucket.com and use the [img] function to host the photos there and display them here.  photobucket will automatically size them for you. 

thanks Alan ;D

Notice that gear doesn't have that ring on it like your pics
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1131.jpg)
2nd View
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1132.jpg)
This is where the dog and dog spring would go. Kind of weird for the 114 huh? Especially when the 113 schematics have the OTHER type of dog and spring!
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1133.jpg)

Hey Bert, your 3rd picture looks good and that is the way it should go. Since you're a matal worker, I'm going to recommend that you cut approximately1/8 of an inch off the dog spring from both sides and put it back as showing in the picture with the original dog . You should be OK, just fallow the tutorial and give it another try. Let us know how you make out. Sal :)

Thanks Sal,
that IS the original dog :o! I'll take more pics after work (too dark right now ;D) to show the difference, and then a couple of step by step of where I went trouble next (and some of the parts that had confused me :P :P :P
;D
bert

We'll get it together Bert. See if that spring is shorter on the other side and flip it, it appears to be too long but it might just be the pix.

No, you're right :)! Looking at Alan's pic of the 114h, it was too long, one of the details I missed :-[
Can't wait to get home after work and take/show you more pics :)
THANKS SAL!

Well, here are the next steps, please let me know if you see anything wrong.
(thank you in advance :)!!!!)

113 Dog on top and 114h Dog on bottom
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1134.jpg)
113 Dog in place with the 113 Dog Spring in place (newly cut per Sal ;D)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1135.jpg)
Stack of washers according to Alan's Pictorial on this thread. Do we not use the spring washers anymore ???
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1136.jpg)
All the washers on main gear
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1137.jpg)

I know the left one is the spacer washer, but what is the one on the right? and WHERE DOES IT GO ???
THANKS GUYS :)!!!!!!!!!!!!
(doing this, I've succumbed to patience.... :)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/BertWong/Penn1138.jpg)

Bert, thanks for the additional pictures. This reel usually comes with the 3+1 stack configuration, but from looking at your pictures you shouldn't have any problems installing 1+5 configuration like you're showing.  The metal washers that you are showing won't work, the chromed washers are thicker than the 2 brass washers and the first brass washer from the left should be eared  like the second chromed from left, your last eared washer on the stack should make connection with the groves in the main gear. About the dog spring, you could have flipped it , but no worries, it will still work. I'm puzzeled by your first picture of the spacers, will you flip the plate on the other side and let me know if you're able to slide the spacer with the washer in the opening(from the face side)? Thanks, Sal  :-\

Sal, thanks for your comments :)!!!
1) So what do I do? Look to get more brass washers with the ears and "keyed"?? Than have all brass washers??
The difference in thickness between the chrome and brass washers are SOOO hard to tell, I thought they were the same, but since you mentioned it,
rubbing the 2 between my fingers, I guess the chrome ones are "slightly" thicker...
When I got the reel, it was a 3+1 stack and the "drag" washers were SUPER thick, and looked/felt like more of a fiberous (leather?) material.
2) Re: Dog. I put the more "pointy" end towards where the gear will be, as per Alan's tutorial (probably too hard to see from the angle).
3) Spacer/Washer (looks like a hat): When I flip the plate on the other side, yes, it goes right through
Sal, thanks for your patience :)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bert
p.s. Looking at Alan's tutorials, I'm guessing the spring washers aren't used anymore... ???

Hey Bert,
1) I'm going to recommend that you change the complete drag stack, you can contact smooth drags.com ,under general maintenance and tips and explain to them that you're looking for a complete kit of 1+5 drags for a 113, I think the kit comes with thinner washers, just mention to Dawn that you're trying to change the 1+3 configuration to 1+5. I would also change the washer under the main gear.
2) The dog and spring should be installed the same way you're showing it in the pictures.
3)You will need the washer that looks like a hat( good description). You have what it's called a easy access drag design, what that means is that you could get to the drags for maintenence without the need to open the reel ( you should always open the reel for maintenence). You will probably need the tension spring, this part goes over the spacer washer(in your case the hat), the part # is 8-60. About the additional spacer, we willl need to wait and see if it's needed.
Note: You might want to check with Scott's at Pennpart.com for your drag kit and the tension spring, this way you get everything at once. I hope this helps you Bert, don't worry about my patience, I have lots of it.
Try to get your parts( unless someone else has another solution) and if you have problems with the assembly , we're here to help.
Take care, Sal  ;)

ok, bert, i just got a care package into the mail for you.  it includes a 98-60 stainless steel gear sleeve, a jigmaster power handle, a carbontex drag washer that goes under the main gear, five of the ht-100 #6-60's, an extra keyed and extra slotted metal washers, and some grease.  it should arrive by saturday!

Hey Sal,

       Sorry I didn't notice this thread... I would have helped put in my 2cents, but I will say you handled it well and am sure Metal Man appreciates it! 
Alan, as always... to the rescue with the goody bag!  Metal Man if you have any more problems post it in the general questions/trouble shooting so more people can see it, and help you out.  Best of luck getting that back together... patience is the name of this game.
Dom

Due to technical difficulties, couldn't fit things together properly. PM to Alan sent :)
Thanks Sal for your patience ;D
Bert

Total newbie here, I stripped my 114 h2 penn senator 6/0 and put it back together following the short version. I am really confused on how to put the washers and gears back together. I have looked around this site and I saw that link you posted about the stainless keyed/brass washers and I really don't know what those means and what they look like. If someone could really help me out that would be very much appreciated. I just went to bass pros to get some new grease because my pole lost it's tension knob on the side that controls the release of the line in freespool. After it fell off my pole started acting absolutely haywire so I tried the tutorial on how to put the pole back together. If someone could give me a step by step on the washers/ gears that would be incredible. Thanks!

There's a basic picture from the smooth drag web site showing fiber and metal drag washers.
Not sure what pole means? Are you talking about eccentric the lever (freespool lever)
-gary

http://smoothdrag.com/installation.html

The keyed washer looks like a double D ID, and the eared washers have two ears sticking out of the washer, 180 deg. from each other.

First a carbon washer under the gear.  Then the gear.  Then a carbon washer, keyed washer, carbon washer, eared washer, carbon washer, keyed washer, carbon washer, eared washer, carbon washer, keyed washer.

(http://www.fullspeedfishing.com/gallery/data/500/medium/DSCN4086.JPG)

It's not from a 114 but it looks the same, but in different sizes.

Thanks a bunch! and by pole I mean reel. Sorry about that. I still have to get used to all the terms. I'll try and fix it when I'm not working and let you all know how it works out. Appreciate the effort with the posts! thanks

I am servicing my 113h senator.  How do you get the pinion gear off the spool?

I got it.  Penetrating lubricant is great.  Thanks for these awesome tutorials.

Gotta thank you all for your time and  patience!!! I had to succumb, and sent my reel to Alan. He found out the bridge wasn't right, 'cause my 113 was REEEEEL old (reel...real; get it ;) :D?) Well, I used the reel this past Sunday, had 2 blistering hits off opelu, but 1st one came back with the head only :'( and the 2nd one came back with the stinger hook wiped so cleanly, it looked like I didn't even tie a stinger hook on :o :'( :'(! All my boys said: ono :'( :'( :'(
Will change my rig to wire for this weekend ;D
Aloha to you all,
Metalman

Glad to hear ya got it wet!  The really old reels (Senators) are better than the new.  You'll have it for a life time take care of it, and if you need help feel free to PM me with any senator questions.  I've been known to tinker with Senators from time to time  ;) Good luck next time out!
Dom

Aloha Metalman,

Hanapa'a!!!  2 hits, that's a good day.  Glad your reel got some use.  That's more than I can say for myself at the moment.

Please post pics of your catch, and the the fishing tales, in http://alantani.com/index.php?board=17.0.  Also, if your new rigging worked, and willing to share, please post in http://alantani.com/index.php?board=18.0.

Mahalos,
Bryan

so, handle grip size?  drags?  everthing work ok?

Quote from: alantani on May 05, 2011, 06:06:46 PM
so, handle grip size?  drags?  everthing work ok?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

;) yep!!

Quote from: Bryan Young on May 05, 2011, 03:19:11 PM
Aloha Metalman,

Hanapa'a!!!  2 hits, that's a good day.  Glad your reel got some use.  That's more than I can say for myself at the moment.

Please post pics of your catch, and the the fishing tales, in http://alantani.com/index.php?board=17.0.  Also, if your new rigging worked, and willing to share, please post in http://alantani.com/index.php?board=18.0.

Mahalos,
Bryan

I'll share some, but can't share all, since I promised my friend that the secrets he showed me, I wouldn't share, or he won't show me more secrets!!! :D All I can say for now, is my catching a lot of fish on a 23' boat is SOOOO different from fishing on a sailing kayak!!!!!! :o ;D

bert, that's totally not a problem.  bryan and i were talking about the difference in culture between northern california and hawaii.  getting people to be more open and willing to share will take a very long time, or maybe even never.  i have found, however, that once a person is helped, he is more willing to help others!   ;D

oh, I TOTALLY agree with that :)

No probs Bert.  Know it being born and raised there.  Funny, in Hawaii we all talk about the Aloha spirit and kokua one another, BUT...  I've always though it was funny growing up with the kokua spirit, but it did not apply to fishing or fisherman. 

If you no can share the techy stuff, fishing reports/pics of sashimi/poke/...before it's cut would be awesome.

Bryan.

Well, there are some stuff I've been learning the past 10 years myself, that I'd be willing to share :)
Alan said you were trying to build up those threads, I'm guessing to help out the newbies, so they won't have to suffer like we did ;D
I was approached by some newbies that already had attitude of thinking they were better than the other kayak fishing and diving newbies. I just replied to their request: "sorry man, I had my friend do it for me, so I can't tell you how he did it!"
lol.... ;)

Quick question, I have a 113h, older style with the burgundy plates, I went through and cleaned it, and put new drag washers in.  I noticed once I assembled it that I could not stop the freespool.  I tightened the Left side bearing as tight as I could and still wouldn't slow the spool down.  The reel worked fine as far as drag and everything else goes.  Any ideas?

The experts may weigh in here with more authority, but to my knowledge, that adjustment is only for spool play and is not meant to be a cast control. 

Quote from: wolvie on May 09, 2011, 02:56:36 PM
The experts may weigh in here with more authority, but to my knowledge, that adjustment is only for spool play and is not meant to be a cast control. 

Yep, that's what it's for. The left side bearing should be adjusted for zero drag and zero end play, a very fine line. If it's too tight, you'll end up ruining both left and right bearings. If your freespool is better now than before you rebuilt the reel then you did it right. 8)

    Wolvie and Rob are 100% correct, (bearing not meant for cast control) however it should effect the spool (slow it down/stop) if tightened all the way down... it WILL rub on the spool. Being a novice and not thinking too long about it I would tell you to make sure the spool is seated properly, and to make sure the handle side bearing (opposite side)is tightened properly. ...but I'l keep thinkin'.  Best of luck
Dom

These guys are all right. The earlier models had bushings and  spring tension, that allowed you to adjust the free spool. On the  the 113H, the left side bearing is used to adjust spool play. Like rob mentioned, if the spool is too tight with no sideway play you will ruin the bearings and probably crack the plates under heavy load, you should always have a little side play with the spool....very little.

Good to know, thanks for the replies, It reeled in a nice snapper and grouper and the drag worked great so maybe I am just not use to it being cleaned and working smooth..

Success!!!  Isn't it awesome to discover that you actually did it right and it works better than before?

Bula all you Senator lovers!... I'm in the process of converting my 113h, (maroon sideplate) to the Tiburon narrow frame kit I got from Alan. w/new s.s. gear sleeve & ht100's..... ( the conversion didn't work with the first regular 113 i tried it on..the spool shaft was too long for the non bearing 113 sideplate). Luckily a friend gifted me a 113h in great shape so i'm back on track...
However, once i reattach the bridge and tighten it down, the gear shaft wont turn, like it's bound or pressure fit ???
I'm wondering; Do I need to dremel the sideplate like the 112hn because I've converted to narrow spool?? Is that what's going on?
Whaddaya reckon? Vinaka guys

Um ..... narrow frame and a narrow spool, right? I believe you have to use the inner rings, too. ???

There is a new kit from Tiburon that gets installed without the inner rings, but i don't thing the one you have is it, its fairly new. About the 113, the narrow kit would never work on that reel, the spool shaft is different from the 113H. I've done many 113h and never had to dremel out the side plate, it always worked out for me using the 1+5 drag stack configuration. I'm going to recommend that you take that reel apart and reassemble it, it might be something simple, like the dog or spring being  out of position. Good luck!

I recently rebuilt my 113H and installed the 5+1 HT100's and new metal washers, too.  It is an older 113H with open drags.  Like yours, the gear sleeve bound up.  The main gear would rub against the side plate when I placed the thicker 6-875 (HT100) washer under it, so I dremelled out the side plate for clearance.  I used Alan's 111 Senator tutorial for instructions on how to do it.  It turned fine after that, so it isn't an unheard of problem.

BTW, I had to do the same thing on my black 113 Senator (not H) and need to do it on my 111 Senator, too.  I'm wondering if many of the older Senators that originally came with 3 drag washers lack the necessary clearance for the 5+1 drag washer set-up.

As they say "measure twice and cut once".  In your case, carefully check twice, and if needed, dremel once. 

George 

I just checked one of my 113h with the easy access drag system. the reel has not been dremeled out and it works great. My metal washers from the kit are .94 mm thick and the HT 100's are 1 mm thick, but I just noticed that I did not use the 6-875 washer for under the main gear, I used one of the same HT100 that I installed in the drag stack, all I did was to enlarge the inner hole a little. I have been using some of these reels with this set-up and have not experienced any problems.

Correction!
I just pulled my 113H apart. The HT100 washer's hole has not been enlarged I was thinking of a spacer washer under the sleeve but that's something else. So I used 5 HT100's in the drag stack and one of the same for under the main gear. My reel works flawlessly.

when the main gear rubs against the side plate, it is usually the thick penn drag washer under the main gear that is the cause of the problem.  a thinner carbontex washer usually eliminates this problem. 

Quote from: George4741 on May 29, 2011, 02:14:50 AM

BTW, I had to do the same thing on my black 113 Senator (not H) and need to do it on my 111 Senator, too.  I'm wondering if many of the older Senators that originally came with 3 drag washers lack the necessary clearance for the 5+1 drag washer set-up.

As they say "measure twice and cut once".  In your case, carefully check twice, and if needed, dremel once. 

George 

George, I just read the second part of your comment. I don't believe that increasing the drags on those reels that you mentioned here is a good idea. Each additional washer will give you approximately 5 pound of added pressure on the drags, those reels are not designed to handle that much pressure. If you do have the stainless steel gear sleeve you would be ok there but there is a chance that you could fry your gears if fished over 10 pounds. The 5+1 can be done, as you proved it but I would be very careful on how I fish it. Take care, Sal

Quote from: Alto Mare on May 29, 2011, 10:17:44 AM
George, I just read the second part of your comment. I don't believe that increasing the drags on those reels that you mentioned here is a good idea. Each additional washer will give you approximately 5 pound of added pressure on the drags, those reels are not designed to handle that much pressure. If you do have the stainless steel gear sleeve you would be ok there but there is a chance that you could fry your gears if fished over 10 pounds. The 5+1 can be done, as you proved it but I would be very careful on how I fish it. Take care, Sal

Your warning is noted, and since I spool my 111 and 113 Senators with 30lb mono, a draq setting of 33% will be sufficient (I need to get a pull scale).   

Sal, what are your thoughts on the 113H?  I get the impression that this is a much more capable reel, and many people greatly exceed 10lbs of drag.

In my opinion the Penn Senator 113H is one of the best reels out there for the money, no one even comes close. Although it is very capable of handling over 20 pounds, I wouldn't push it over 15 pounds. I have a few that I customized for myself with stainless steel gears, stainless steel gear sleeve and stainless steel yoke, Those reels are built like tanks and I wouldn't be too worried about pushing them to their limit. Of course how you use your reel and the line has a lot to do with it. Take care, Sal

By the way, setting your drag at 33% on that 111 and 113 is all good, but with my experience it doesn't mean much. When that trophy fish hits your line, I doubt that you're going to keep it at 33% and if your line give up before your gears, you did good.

Bula All & thanks for the rapid responses.... Ai tukana...it's sunday afternoon in Fiji....don't you guys have anything better to do on a Saturday night stateside? ;D ;D
Rob- spot on.. Tib kit came wit narrow spool, nice one too. I had to buff out the old inner rings so not to spoil the look.
The newer style that Sal refers to would be nice..to be able to ditch the inner rings altogether... i tried it like that to check but mines definitely not the new one.
Yeah, I'm sure you're right Alan... it's the under gear washer is too thick. the thin carbontex would shave 1mm off the thickness
..that's what it needs. I did the same as Sal on this one...same ht-100 under the gear as in the drag but it's just not working for me.
As soon as I snug down the bridge screws...that last half turn or so...the gear goes tight.
So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks

Quote from: erikpowell on May 29, 2011, 07:54:12 PM

So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks

You are correct Erik - Five 113H washers for the drag stack and the sixth washer goes under the main gear to make the 1+5. 8)
Good luck with it. ;)
Rob

Erik, I don't know how thick your HT100's are, I did check what I have and believe it or not I came up with 3 different tickness on the same washer for the 113H. They are .80 mm, 1 mm and 120 mm  :-\ go figure. I don't remember where I got them from, some came out of some 113h's that I customized and I think some came from Scott's, as a kit with metal washers included. I know there is a way to install the 1+ 5 configuration without using the dremel. If you have a digital caliper ( I love mine by the way, thanks Rob and crew for the tip) check all the ones that you have and if by any chance one of them is thinner than the rest, try it under the gear and see what it does.

Quote from: norcal pescador on May 29, 2011, 10:11:53 PM

Quote from: erikpowell on May 29, 2011, 07:54:12 PM

So from Smoothdrag... is it the "Penn 113H Thin -Set of 6-   $17.00" I should have on hand for this or is there a different one? Thanks

Erik, there is no need for you to replace the 5 washers for the drag stack, all you need is the one that goes under the gear, unless you would like to have extras. I could send you one of the .80 mm if you would like, just send me a pm and I'll put it in an envelope ,hopefully it will work.They do work on mine, just let me know. Take care, Sal

Finally landed some good sized fish with my 113h ebay special.  Drag worked great, nice and smooth.  I did notice a couple of things and wanted to get some opinions. 

1.) The shop overloaded the spool (IMO) and it tended to gather on one side only (handle side).  I took some line off but, haven't tried it since, anyone else have that problem?

2.) Under load it seemed to be tough to reel.  Without load its smooth and has good freespool.  I pulled the clicker side bearing and noticed some play with the inside race.  Could that be the issue? 

Sounds like you got your money's worth already ;D. 1) Are you thumbing  the line when you're reeling it in? I like to keep the line a 1/4 of an inch away from the edge of the spool on all of my reels. 2) Most  reels are going to be tough to reel  with a nice size fish on, I don't beleive that it is the bearing, but I don't really know  how tough you'e talking about. Did you give that reel the A T treatment? Greased carbon washers and a nice  power handle would help.

I have a question about the proper amount of spool sideplay in the below described reel.

I've just acquired a Penn "113H" whose clicker side sideplate shows "Penn Senator 4/0 Special", with the bearing on that sideplate being a "ball bearing" (inscribed on that cap) with no exterior oiling point built into that bearing cap. This reel was reportedly purchased about 40 years ago and the Penn "manual" within the reels Penn box carries a 1969 printing date. This reel is brand new, never mounted or fished. End plates are the Penn maroon red color and handle is amber in color. Gear ratio is 3 1/4 to 1.

However, when in its "freespool" mode the spool has about 1/16 inch sideplay, with the clicker side bearing cap screwed down to maximum tightness. The right side (handle side) "ball bearing" cap on this reel appears to be a press fit and appears not to be adjustable. When the drag lever is thrown into the "drag-on" position the spool shift results in no sideplay then existing.

I'm not new to disassembling fishing reels and all of my prior experience is that you can remove ALL of the spool sideplay by screwing in the bearing caps (then loosening them just enough so that the spool rotates freely). Therefore I'm wondering why this condition exists with this reel.

I believe the reel is as it came from the factory and am wondering why it has this much sideplay in the spool, AND if that can be removed.

Hmmmmm .......... Yes you're right, the bearing in the right side plate is pressed into place from the inside. You can get to it once the bridge assembly is removed from the side plate and it should pop out with a little pressure from your finger. You're correct again on the left bearing being adjustable to set the side play.
Okay, here's what I suggest:
Take the right side plate off, remove the spool and set both aside. Tighten the left spool bearing then remove it counting how many turns to remove it. Is there any corrosion present? Clean the threads on the bearing cap and the side plate. Put a light coat of grease on the threads, insert the bearing and tighten it as far as you can with only your fingers, again counting how many turns until tight. Same number of turns? If more turns, back off the bearing cap several turns, reassemble the reel and see if you can tighten up the side play. When you're tightening the bearing, don't take it all the way to tight and then back off. It is much better for the bearings to tighten them a little at a time until there is very little side play.
Try that and if it didn't help, let us know. There will be more to do (like Alan's rebuild) to make sure the reel's ready to go.
Rob

Rob,

Thank you for your response to my inquiry about a sideplay issue.

I've just now checked the reel's clicker side (1) plate threads, and (2) bearing cap threads - both are clean as a whistle and without issues. I did clean the old 40 year old grease from these and regreased with Penn grease before I sent my original inquiry.

I have not removed the right sideplate as I don't understand that would have an influence on your suggestion regarding making certain that bearing cap on the clicker side is fully seating, which is a fully understandable suggestion and a good one. My left side bearing cap does seat into the end plate as far as it will go, e.g. to the upper end of the bearing cap threads.

I am wondering if there should be a shim or spring that is part of the clicker side bearing mechanism; one that would remove that sideplay. On both my older 4/0 (2:1 gear ratio) and 6/0 the clicker side bearing cap has a coil spring that slips over its outside diameter; but those bearing caps include a provision for inserting oil and are a different part compared to this "ball bearing" cap.

Coverhill

Is it possible the the right side bearing may have slipped out of the cup and is stuck in the side plate?  I've seen this once.  Resulting in a spool that travels more than expected.

The bearing assembly on the left side consists of 4 parts: the cap (with or without an oil port), an o-ring or spring to keep the cap from moving, a pressed-in retaining ring that holds the bearing in place in the cap, and the bearing itself. Have you pulled the retaining ring to let you see the bearing itself? (My thinking there is no actual bearing.) Could it be a bearing cap that should have the o-ring instead of  the spring, or vice-versa. (I honestly don't remember when the switch was made.) Check the right side, as Bryan notes, a problem with the bearing there. Stuff happens that shouldn't. ;D
Rob

Again I appreciate the interest shown in helping me with my problem. Thank you all.

As it turns out Alan Tani has sent me an email that solved the problem - which was that the left side bearing cap was not turned in as far as it would go. Once that was done the slack was gone.

I have lots of reels, many Penn's, and have never had one like this one. This particular end cap is the tightest I've ever seen in 50 years. Actually had to use padded pliers to seat this particular end cap as it was impossible to seat with finger strength. I don't like to use this approach when working on any reel however.

I hope this exchange will help some future person who might experience this unusual problem. If so "use those pliers VERY carefully and DON'T force anything".

Coverhill

Glad to see you got your baby up and runnin'... now go catch some fish with it ;)
PS- the clicker side bearing on the 4/0 (black plates) and 6/0 (vintage) are actually bushings not bearings.
Dom

Do y'all remove the cover to the bearings and pack them with grease? 

I used to just oil them with corrosionX.  My bottle is similar to that of reelX.  I insert to cone shaped head of the bottle in the center of the bearing while in the bearing cup.  The I squeeze the bottle until I see corrosionX coming out of the bearing and repeat several time.  If I am packing the bearings with grease (trolling applications), I use Alan's bearing packer.  It works great and you don't even need to remove the shields.  Maybe today, when I'm at Alans, I'll video a bearing, with one shield off, how well the bearing packer packs grease in.  We've been wanting to do it for some time, but just never had the chance.

in the first pic it seems that there are more carbon drag washers than what comes in the kit from penn parts can you clarify this. Thank you

I have three 114hl that I would like to put new drags in and need to order the kits for. Just need to know what to order. Thank you

never mind I reread page 2. this site is great!

Quote from: Tidetime on June 06, 2011, 04:05:31 PM
Finally landed some good sized fish with my 113h ebay special.  Drag worked great, nice and smooth.  I did notice a couple of things and wanted to get some opinions. 

1.) The shop overloaded the spool (IMO) and it tended to gather on one side only (handle side).  I took some line off but, haven't tried it since, anyone else have that problem?

2.) Under load it seemed to be tough to reel.  Without load its smooth and has good freespool.  I pulled the clicker side bearing and noticed some play with the inside race.  Could that be the issue? 

1. and 2.) figured out the problem, at least I think I did. The the tabs on the base of the reel were slightly bent.  This caused the reel not to be lined up with the rod properly.  After I bent the tabs as close to straight as possible and lined the reel on the rod correctly the line did not want to gather at one side.  I believe the line was piling up on one side and rubbing the inside of the handle plate, which caused the tightness as I was trying to reel in a fish. 

I've run into issues rebuilding the right sideplate of one of my reels.  It's a 114h.  I have put in 6 new HT100 washers and greased everything.  I am able to screw the bridge in and have the dog assembly not pop out.  However, when I try to put the spacing sleeve, star drag, tension springs, and handle onto the stack, I have almost no drag range.  I am only able to turn the star 1/4 of a full turn.  The reel feels "sticky" when I try to turn the handle.  I'm thinking it might be that the eared washers come unseated when I put the stack into the sideplate.  Of course i have no way of knowing because when I go back and unscrew the bridge, everything falls out and I can't see whether or not the stack was properly seated.  I have not had this issue with the other 3 reels I am working on.  Any ideas?

Hello captain, when you said that you put in 6 new ht 100 washers, did you put 5 in the gear stack and 1 under the gear? Also try to  lightly grease the carbon fiber and metal washers, that should help with keeping them together during assembly

5 in the stack and 1 under the gear, all greased with cal's grease. 

Do you have the configuration as showing?  carbon - keyed - carbon -eared - carbon - keyed - carbon - eared - carbon - keyed -

yeah the order is correct.  i've taken it apart and put it back together a few times and I think I fixed the limited range problem.  i can now turn the star close to 2 full revolutions. i'm still only getting between 15-20 lbs. of drag though, we'll see if I can tease out some more drag.  i'm surprised its so low even after adding a 6th washer under the gear.  thoughts?

You're just about where you want to be with that reel. Take it out a couple of times and and fish with it; you will notice that you will gain a little more drag when everything settles in. I'm sure that it will work, if you're still not happy get back to us, there might be a thing or two that we could do, but I rather leave it as you have it. Take care, Sal

Ok, got that one working, thanks for the help.  Now I'm working on my last reel.  This is the one that came off eBay in the poorest condition.  I did the whole drag replacement, put it together, and felt a grinding sensation as I cranked the handle.  I took it apart and I think I've isolated it to the yoke and pinion gear (the small silver gear).  whenever that gear turns in the yoke, i feel some friction, even when heavily greased.  I'm wondering if something came out of alignment or got bent or knicked somehow.  Should I replace these parts?  Are there stainless part replacements?

Hello, from your explanation it sounds like you need new gears. I usually replace both gears at the same time on those reels, on the larger reels, I take a chance with only one and see if that works ( the're just too costly ). You should be able to find the gears on eBay at a reasonable price, if you can't, Scott's at mysticparts.com has them. It could also be something else causing the grinding sensation, I'm leaning towards the bearings. Since you have another reel, it makes it easy for you to pinpoint the problem. I would start with the bearings, just swap them and see if that does anything, and so on. Just remember to put the parts back in place after testing each one, otherwise you'll have two bad reels.


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

Thanks Alan!

That's exactly what I was needing! The dog and the flat spring was what I was stumped on!

Hoss,
Now I see why everyone sezs "Go ask Alan"!

Thanks again for the help...............Mic

just glad it worked!   ;D

Alan, Alto Mare, Brian, etc ;)
Since I've started asking you guys on this forum, I've taken apart my 4/0 reels recently. Been awhile, so I had a friend do his with mine, we figured everything out, so now I"m proud to say I can take EVERY PIECE apart and put it back together ;D!!!
Okay, so I haven't don Alan's dremel down the thingy to make it a full 6 drag set, but I'm comfortable for now with leaving it as stock. Still wanted to just say hi and to let you know I'm caring for my reels more :) !!!!!!!!!!!!
Aloha,
Metalman

yeah, it's been a while.  i was starting to miss you!  so bryan and i will be heading out to oahu for one of the tackle shows.  please let us drop in on you.  i'm always good for a few drinks.  alan

REALLY?!!! D@MN! You guys just missed the Hawaiiian Fishing and Seafood Festival!!! :( :'(!!!
What is this one in the future??!!! Can't wait to see you guys  ;D :D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(808) 781-9496 ;)

Can I buy the full frame 113H2 part and replace the posts in my 113H?
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/183N-113HL.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/183N-113HL.aspx)

Also, will the side plate (non handle) from a 113L2 or 113H2 be ok for a 113?  It is half as much!


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

sorry, no, the frame does not have enough screws in it.  the tib frame will work, or the graphite penn frame for the later model penn 113hl's will work as well.  i might even have one somewhere.  alan

Not sure if it is right place to post this.

I serviced my penn senator 9/0 using this tutorial as guideline.

When tried to re-put everything together I found it a little difficult because this part is kind of different between the 113 and the 114.

I made a picture of it:

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3430/senator90.jpg)

NOTE THAT THE DOG IS UPSIDE DOWN. IF YOU ARE SERVICING THIS REEL DO NOT MOUNT IT LIKE THAT!

Hello GT,

What part of the reel are you referring to that is different?  

Btw, your pinion looks like its missing some teeth.  Am I correct...or is it my eyes?  :-\

Other than that, it looks like you are ready to rotate your bridge plate and you should be set.

Aside from the missing yoke springs...  
Won't be much good without those. ;)
All the best, Justin

I see a couple of things. Like Justin said, the yoke springs are missing - they need to go over the screws before the yoke goes on.
The eccentric looks like it might be 180^o out - there shouldn't be any air showing between the eccentric post and the groove in the eccentric jack.
The dog spring looks okay.
Can't really tell if the dog is right side up - is it fitting into the notches on the gear sleeve fully?

Well spotted on both counts Rob.
Wondered about the dog, too, but hadn't noticed the eccentric.
Good call...

yup, the dog is upside down.  everything else looks good.

Wow, good eyes guys.  Like find what's wrong in this picture that my kids play.

Yep the dog is upside down, I made the picture before setting it in the right way.. sorry guys I hope no one sets it wrongly because of my picture.

The different part, I'm not sure on how to call this in english is that the "spring" which is not actually a spring that make the dog move and set in the 115 (9/0) is different from 113 and 114 and also from the 16/0 that I found in another tutorial.

L.

It's a leaf spring of sorts, like on the rear axle of a truck. It's the only kind that would work in this application.  The 114H uses the same type, the 113H and most other conventional Penns use a coil spring.

Just bought a 114H last week, I ordered the new ht-100 drag washers from ScottB&T but I didn't order the metals - thought I could save a few dollars and use the metals that are in the reel. Do you see any problems with this? Also I ordered 4-115 to put under the main gear, I didn't realize until after reading this thread that you can use an ht-100, what size to I use, the same size as in the drag stack?

I thought you were able to remove the drags on these reels without removing the side plates?
I'm having trouble searching the forum because I'm using the mobile version, thanks for the help..:
Mike

Fishit 2: I believe the metal in the 9/0 is chromed bronze, so you need to change the metal.  You should have purchased the kit.  The HT-100 will chew up the bronze and you will have metal filings floating around in the reel.  Not a good thing of course.  I think you can order the metal from Scotts or Dawn at Smoothdrags, but you need to put an HT-100 under the gear.  The size is the same as the drag stack.  To get under the gear you need to take the reel apart.  At this point if I were you I would order the kit which contains the drags and the metals, use one of the HT-100s that you received under the gear and you'll end up with 2 extra drag disks.  Offer them up on this site, someone will probably need one for under the gear.  Dominick

I bought the kit from ScottB&T, I also ordered new drags for my Squidders - 140 and 146. I decided to try the 146 since it seemed like the easiest of my reels to work on, but I was wrong. I opened the 146 drag stack and found 1 bronze metal washer and one plastic looking washer. I put the new drag washers in(got the metals for this reel) but I can't seem to get the reel back together - I'm screwed. Im going to have to look for a reel repair place here in South Jersey.

I'm going to order the metal HT-100 washers from Scott's now for my 114H, it probably also has the bronze washers in it and I don't want to be in the same position I'm with currently with my 146 Squidder. Thanks for the reply

Welcome to the site,Fishit2. Don't give up on your Squidder yet and  look at the Tutorial in the link here.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30.0

Let's know where the problem is and you will get all the help and advice you need here.
Remember  the old idiom, "A problem shared is a problem halved". ;)

Aloha Fishit 2,

Don't worry about the brass washers.  We use them all of the time.  There's nothing to worry about if you grease the drag washers.

Don't give up yet.  I'm working on one, and it cannot be as bad.

Bryan

I just stripped cleaned lubed a 3/0 and 4/0 black this weekend after ordering new washers and HT-100's from Scott's. The converting to 5+1 and dremelling got me thinking. How much of a problem would it be to just do 4+1?  On one I did

HT
Keyed
HT
Eared
HT
Eared
HT
Keyed

And on the other I did

HT
Keyed
HT
Eared
HT
Keyed
HT
Keyed

With HT under main gear in both cases
Still getting plenty of drag range (sorry no scale).

What is the downside to this if any?

Maine guide, that was good thinking. Unfortunately the Ht between the two eared washers will stay put and create no additional drag. In another word, its functionality will be more as a spacer. I'm curious to hear on what you came up with, as far as drag with the back to back eared washers, any additional friction?

This is related to what you were trying to do: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4045.0
click on the link at the top of the topic once you get there, I couldn't move it.
Penn eliminated the eared washers here....I believe that they're moving in the right direction.

Thanks Sal for the quick response. I will grab a scale and test it and let you know what I have

What is your thinking about 4+1 over 5+1 drag stack?  I always try to stuff as many washers into the gear as I can get.

you have to have one drag under the main gear and an odd number on top. 

Or we could make new gears as Miz MO is showing us and have eared  CF washers, what a brilliant design.

I'm about 1-1/2 days ahead of you on this Sal.  The gear thickness between the OD and washers will be a factor (smaller OD for the washers) but if every metal washer is connected to the gear sleeve and every fiber washer to the gear more surface area is working.  When I get up north again I will stop at the gear shop and this will be a consideration.

Quote from: maine guide on April 29, 2012, 12:25:12 PM
The converting to 5+1 and dremelling got me thinking. How much of a problem would it be to just do 4+1?  

Quote from: Keta on April 29, 2012, 05:04:42 PM
What is your thinking about 4+1 over 5+1 drag stack?  I always try to stuff as many washers into the gear as I can get.

If you are concerned about dremeling out the sideplate, then read the solution I posted today, titled "Another 1+5 drag solution for smaller black Senators".  You might NOT have to dremel out your sideplate; I didn't.  

Regards, George

Would the ears on the fiber washers be strong enough to hold them in place?

Quote from: Keta on April 29, 2012, 06:04:50 PM
I'm about 1-1/2 days ahead of you on this Sal.  The gear thickness between the OD and washers will be a factor (smaller OD for the washers) but if every metal washer is connected to the gear sleeve and every fiber washer to the gear more surface area is working.  When I get up north again I will stop at the gear shop and this will be a consideration.

Hello Malule      I would think so.
                        On Charter special it works.

                             Thank you  B.

Alan, I am servicing an old 12/0 Penn Senator - will be replacing the reel posts and drag washers - no problem.  The problem is there is green corrosion on the spool, and when I soak it in Vinegar, the green crud dissipates, but then the chrome(?) finish on the spool goes too.

Is there anything I should coat the the spool with before I reload the line?  Or should I just leave the exposed spool surface alone and just rinse regularly.

Thanks,

Willy B

Quote from: Willy B on May 17, 2012, 01:29:35 PM


Alan, I am servicing an old 12/0 Penn Senator - will be replacing the reel posts and drag washers - no problem.  The problem is there is green corrosion on the spool, and when I soak it in Vinegar, the green crud dissipates, but then the chrome(?) finish on the spool goes too.

Is there anything I should coat the the spool with before I reload the line?  Or should I just leave the exposed spool surface alone and just rinse regularly.

Thanks,

Willy B

Sand blast with a fine glass bead and paint or powder coat

G'day Willy,
Bryan made great suggestion some time ago regarding spool protection:

Quote...you may want to polish the spool with pure carnuba wax. That stuff puts on a very hard coating to protect the surface. At least this is what I do.

I've used this trick for some time now and rate it...
Good luck, Justin

Quote from: redsetta on May 17, 2012, 09:20:05 PM
G'day Willy,
Bryan made great suggestion some time ago regarding spool protection:

Quote...you may want to polish the spool with pure carnuba wax. That stuff puts on a very hard coating to protect the surface. At least this is what I do.

I've used this trick for some time now and rate it...
Good luck, Justin

Sometimes I wax the spool, but usually I use Brasso. But then a few of my reels have the brass pox showing through. ;D :-\

Hey guys hate to beat a dead horse but need some input on the drag stack of my 113H, half frame.  Looking the various tutorials I get the sequence of the carbon fiber and stainless steel washers, but i discovered this 113H has the 5 carbon and 5 stainless, but i found a thicker stainless keyed washer that's not in the schematics or any other tutorial i could find.  when i stack everything inside the side plate the stack rubs the side plate; unless I turn the drag in.    I've compared it to my 114HLW full frame and 112H all post, but nothing matches in configuration (is this an apples and oranges comparison?  And yes everything is USA Made)  When I re-install leaving a thin keyed washer out i can crank it down and lock up the drag.  I hate to have extra parts left over, should I just leave it in this current configuration? Thanks guys in advance, I really enjoy the atmosphere here compared to others.

My current stack inside is:
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
thick stainless
beville washer

Outside is:
shaft sleeve
beville washer
star drag
thin keyed washer
handle and nut

I would go

My current stack inside is:
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
stainless
carbon
thin stainless
beville washer

Outside is:
shaft sleeve
star drag
handle and nut

If the thick washer is rubbing on your side plate.

Did your reel come with all of those washers?  Seems more than what Penn has designed into those reels..

 ::)Thanks Bryan...yes I bought it new as a combo and that's what's so puzzling about the quantity of washers....it seems to workfine  and the drag seems fine with your configuration....I guess sometimes extra parts is a good thing... ::)

I'm glad it worked out.

I'm trying to replace my drag washers, I got the kit from xxxb&t.com, one kit says 10 washers the other says 11 - are they counting the ht-100 under the handle as the 11th and does that really add any drag power? The old timer who fixes my reels told me to only put the fiber washer under the handle and the ht-100 doesn't do anything for the drag?

there is a washer that goes under the main gear.  smoothdrag.com has one.  i will use that or a penn ht-100 #6-875.  if you need one in a hurry, send me a pm with this info and your address and i will mail one out to you.  alan

Quote from: Fishit 2 on May 26, 2012, 10:08:36 AM
The old timer who fixes my reels told me to only put the fiber washer under the handle and the ht-100 doesn't do anything for the drag?

The under washer works. Think about it, under load the gear sleve does not turn but the gear does, force from the star pushes the entire stack creating drag.  The under washer works by friction between the gear sleve and the gear.

The under washer works. Think about it, under load the gear sleve does not turn but the gear does, force from the star pushes the entire stack creating drag.  The under washer works by friction between the gear sleve and the gear.
[/quote]

Great explanation Keta.

I believe a greased carbon fiber washer under the main gear will help give a smoother drag at start-up and throughout the drag curve, as opposed to the original stock Penn washer.  And it generates less heat from friction, too.

The under washer is a must!!!

Think of the drag stack (including Under Washer) as a chain. 
Do you want all the links made of same material?? 
(Insert Weak link jokes here)....   :-)

I've been using the same cf washer that I use in the gear for under the gear for about a year now, no issues as of yet.

i cleaned my 114hlw and when i put it back together everything looked right but when i put it in freespool it seizes up. 
When i put it in gear it is as smooth as silk and has plenty of drag. Any ideas of what might be wrong? thanks

Aloha Robert.  Welcome  I hope we can help.

When you put it in freespool, crank the handle lightly, does the spool rotate?

I suspect that the pinion gear is not disengaging and your spool is not disengaging.  Either the eccentric is installed incorrectly or you may need to increase the angle of the tab on th eccentric that engages the yoke to pull the pinion gear away from the spool.

Quote from: Robert5617 on June 16, 2012, 03:10:06 AM
i cleaned my 114hlw and when i put it back together everything looked right but when i put it in freespool it seizes up. 
When i put it in gear it is as smooth as silk and has plenty of drag. Any ideas of what might be wrong? thanks

In free spool the handle won't turn  either.  It looks like the pinion gear is wobbling a little and binds against the hole it goes through.

Hello Robert, welcome. Sounds like something went out of place during assembly, take the reel apart and start all over again. Don't get upset it will only make you better at it. Now follow this wonderful tutorial here above and I'll bet it will work out for you ;). Give it a shot and if it doesn't do it, we'll take it from there. Sal

Ive taken it apart and put it back about 5 times now and keep getting the same result.  Could the pinon gear be warped

I'll try again a few more times this afternoon.  Thanks for ask the help.

Robert, it could be a few things. I had no idea that you already disassembled it 5 times, you must be a pro by now ;D. Check the yoke, jack and pinion gear for damage, there is a possibility that something might have gotten damaged from not being seated correctly the first time.

Sorry couldn't find my reading glasses.

Nah I'm no pro if I were I wouldnt need help lol. I do take them apart and clean theem about once a month bc use them about once per week si I'm pretty fast but I've never had any problems until now.  Il check for any damage this afternoon and thanks again for the help

finnally got it!!!  i put the freespool lever on backwards 5 times lol. (told ya I'm no pro) I guess in my frustration I didnt notice.  It was letting the gear go further than it is supposed to. I flipped that baby around and boom better than ever. 
thanks for all the help guys

The very 1st time i did a reel (senator) i did the same exact thing.Glad to know im not the only one.

Alan: I see you also post now and then at the stripers on line forum.... there's a poster there, who wants forty (40) pounds of drag from his 114.  ....mayhaps someone here can skid over there, and help out? Thanks. KD.
http://www.stripersonline.com/t/857031/penn-reel-drag-issues

Posted.  Wow, 40# is a bit high, but I guess if he wants to push it as we all do, more power to him.  Posted to provide some advice.

I believe that using all of that good stuff that we use here, it's possible. We need accurate gears, but the old steel gears should handle it. If you know where to look, some of the 114hl have ss gears.
John Clyde needs to stop over here and see what we're up to. He's on the wrong site for that kind of stuff, they're mostly spinners experts.

I did everything i could do to get 25lb out of mine, and at that point i was breaking my 50lb line.  Hope he has all braid and is in shallow waters, because if he hooks a fish that can pull 40lbs, he better know his knots, better know his rigging, and know his technique, cuz thats a ton of pressure.  I broke a 50-100 rod testing that reel too...  Come to think of it, ive never hooked a fish near that heavy pulling, but if I did I hope its on my 50w and not the 114hl

Quote from: Gaujo on July 31, 2012, 07:29:01 PM
I did everything i could do to get 25lb out of mine, and at that point i was breaking my 50lb line.  Hope he has all braid and is in shallow waters, because if he hooks a fish that can pull 40lbs, he better know his knots, better know his rigging, and know his technique, cuz thats a ton of pressure.  I broke a 50-100 rod testing that reel too...  Come to think of it, ive never hooked a fish near that heavy pulling, but if I did I hope its on my 50w and not the 114hl

The fish below was fought most of the way in with 28lbs of drag, the last 100' took closer to 35lbs.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/IGFA19Keta/TunaAvatar.jpg)

Way to go Lee.... and I thought you had a bad back :-\

My back is fairly strong for an old millwright, it's my legs that were severely crushed that don't always work so good, some days not at all.  For 6 months after the crushing I had no use of my right leg, the doctors did a good job making jello into a useable knee but the tendon behind the knee is a big knot....but life is good now.  

The fish above was my largest of the 5 cow YFT to date. If I can do it anyone in reasonable health can, in fact I watched a 90 pound woman kick butt on a cow YFT in less than 45 minutes.

Lee, you remind me of the older Penn's, they sure don't make them like they used to ;).

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 31, 2012, 11:41:56 PM
Lee, you remind me of the older Penn's, they sure don't make them like they used to ;).

x2 ;D

Lee,

Did you catch that cow on a 113/114h? Or, you were just mentioning the amount of drag used.  Serious fish Lee, congrats!

Leo

Avet EX50/2 isn't it Lee?
Awesome fish - congrats mate.

I caught all of my cows on Avet and Penn 50s, it was for referance on drag.  The reel is a very early Avet EX50 STS, the first one that Charkbait got.  We stopped at Mark's shop to say hi and he convinced me my 30's were not big enough, I'm sure glad he did.

As for being tough, no brain no pain.  My wife chewed me bad for going elk hunting 2 weeks after being let out of the hospital, and 20 days after having 1/3 of my colon removed along with a grapefruit size tumor.  I made it over the ridge and into where we hunt but only one day and the rest of the time was spent in and close to camp.  I think it helped me recover faster to keep going.

Quote from: Keta on July 31, 2012, 09:32:52 PM

The fish below was fought most of the way in with 28lbs of drag, the last 100' took closer to 35lbs.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/IGFA19Keta/TunaAvatar.jpg)

For some reason I can't quite figure out, this reminds me of Spencer Tracy. ;) ;D

Lee, in your opinion, would this cow be too much for a 114H, or any star drag reel?

Quote from: Keta on August 01, 2012, 02:24:18 AM

As for being tough, no brain no pain.  My wife chewed me bad for going elk hunting 2 weeks after being let out of the hospital, and 20 days after having 1/3 of my colon removed along with a grapefruit size tumor.  I made it over the ridge and into where we hunt but only one day and the rest of the time was spent in and close to camp.  I think it helped me recover faster to keep going.

Nothing like some fresh mountain air and a rifle slung over your shoulder to make you feel better. ;)  

I'm sure that's what some used in the past.

I didn't discover LR fishing until October '05....a good year for cow YFT. The fish above was caught off of Clarion
Is in January '06.

I wouldn't want to fight a large fish without low gear but the gear ratio of the larger Senators is not all that high.  I have 2 Internationals that have 1:1 low gear for the last 100' of fight.

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 31, 2012, 11:41:56 PM
Lee, you remind me of the older Penn's, they sure don't make them like they used to ;).

Yeah: Built tough, can be repaired when broken, may not be the best looking (especially after use and abuse) but get the job done even under pressure, and is adaptable to different situations.

Quote from: Keta on August 01, 2012, 02:24:18 AM
I caught all of my cows on Avet and Penn 50s, it was for referance on drag.  The reel is a very early Avet EX50 STS, the first one that Charkbait got.  We stopped at Mark's shop to say hi and he convinced me my 30's were not big enough, I'm sure glad he did.

As for being tough, no brain no pain.  My wife chewed me bad for going elk hunting 2 weeks after being let out of the hospital, and 20 days after having 1/3 of my colon removed along with a grapefruit size tumor.  I made it over the ridge and into where we hunt but only one day and the rest of the time was spent in and close to camp.  I think it helped me recover faster to keep going.

That's a cool story.  A lot of outdoorsmen seem to recover from illness best in the outdoors.  I was watching "The National Parks: America's Greatest Idea" last night, and John Muir was like that.

I'll sell you a beater penn international 50 for $150 shipped, if you want a good starting platform for 40lb of drag.

Question for teh Gurus:

On my 113H I get a "buzz" transmitted through the handle from something inside when the handle rotates from 9 to 12. This buzz increases as I crank down the drag.

I double and tripled checked the drag washers, everything is in order and stacking properly. I looked at the bearings and there were no external signs of rust pulled them out and reset them in their little cubbies....I visually inspected the pinion and main and there is no apparent damage...and it always recurs through the same arc of rotation (from 9-12).

Seems to be coming from the right side...as near as I can tell.

Is this simply frame flex causing the gears to mis-align?

Other?

thx for all replies... ???

G'day John,
Hard to say at this stage, but we can discount the main gear as it only goes around once for every 3.25 rotations of the spool.
We can also discount the pinion as it's likewise rotating 3.25 times with each full handle/main gear revolution.
The spool must be touching something at the same point on each rotation.
Are the any burrs etc on the spool edge?
Also, try watching the gap between the spool and the inner ring - if the gap opens and closes very slightly, the spool shaft may not be true.
Hope that's of some assistance.
Good luck, Justin

Thx very much for the reply.

Sorry to not be more clear but it is with every complete rotation of the *handle* from 9-12 not the spool.

In which case, it would be something in the gear train as the bearings, spool, spindle etc would be going around 3.3 times per handle turn I would think.... ???

thanks again for spending your time thinking about this.

best

ps. It was like this before I just replaced the gear sleeve too, but when I replaced the sleeve I played with maybe putting a washer underneath it to reduce play but could not find one thin enough. The one I tried was completely flush so the spindle for the gear shaft seems to be true to rule that out...

Sorry John - completely misinterpreted that.

John,
       Check Justin's first thought... the main gear or pinion for tooth damage.
The buzz sound isn't typical, but the exact same spot on every crank of the handle sounds familiar.
Let us know how ya make out,
Dom

Quote from: broadway on October 05, 2012, 02:57:24 AM
John,
       Check Justin's first thought... the main gear or pinion for tooth damage.
The buzz sound isn't typical, but the exact same spot on every crank of the handle sounds familiar.
Let us know how ya make out,
Dom

Nothing seen.

To be clear, it is not a "sound" as it is a feeling of "buzz" through the handle. Possibly I've just become more accustomed to machined bodies and SS gears in other reels and closer tolerances...

Still scratching my head...

Thx for all replies.

It could be a few things. Did you place the gears in the reel or were they already in?  Are the gears ss? Is the reel new?
Start from here: Set the reel in freespool, tighten the left bearing all the way and back it up just enough so the spool spinns. Turn the music off ;D, give the spool a spinn and listen closly for any intermitted sounds. If freespool is smooth, the easiest way to check the gears is to swap them with another set and see if the problem still exists. I'm leaning towards the gears not meshing properly, coulkd also be the bearings :-\. If you have ss gears, this would be normal, they will get quieter with usage.
The first step mentioned above will let you know if the spool shaft is slightly bent or if the frame is out of square.
good luck, Sal

Thanks for that Sal,

Checked the free spool and it's fine.

I'm thinking I have to take the time to pull the bearings and look inside and put that to rest. These reels are so easy to take down I have no excuse not to. Last time I did not pull the shields and only rotated them by hand and they seemed smooth. But with a little more torque from the handle pressure they could be the source of the small vibration I feel in the handle when it's cranked over.

best regards

I have a few questions about stainless 4:1 gears -

I have various fine-grit lapping compounds I use for rifles-  would it be OK/Beneficial to lap the gears to make them smoother and quieter? I was thinking of smearing them with the compound- setting them up on an old 113h and just cranking away while I watch my soaps......

Is one make of gears better than others? Newell Accurate....?

If I could get a guy to make a run of new gears- how many do you suppose he could get buyers for within 6 months? What could he charge? I see used sets selling for $75 -$100+......that is just so crazy.

If you can get gears similar to accurates, hardened stainless steel for around $50, I'm sure you would sell a 100 fast.  After that, it will probably slow down.

I haven't been keeping you guys posted, but I am working on the gears.
Let ya know when I get the manufacturers final word.
Dom

Do tell.

Salty,
    I will keep you guys informed when I know more,  but I can't believe what a process this is.  I guess, get it done once and the rest will follow.
Thanks,
Dom

Anything that has to do with anything manufacturing is always a drawn out process,but it is worth the wait,keep us posted.

You're not kidding!  I have waited 8 weeks for quotes from one, 6 weeks from another, and so-on.
They must be busy as can be... weeks we can wait, but the dollar is what matters.  I will keep you guys posted on this journey ;)
Thanks
Dom

Appreciate your efforts Dom.
Cheers, Justin

As far as lapping goes, it is my experience that it always makes the reel smoother. It is important to keep some pressure on the spool, I usually just tie the spool off to a convenient immovable object and reel. For brass, toothpaste rocks. For stainless, I would use bore lapping compound or half evaporated Rem Clean.

Ron

Quote from: broadway on October 11, 2012, 10:04:11 PM
You're not kidding!  I have waited 8 weeks for quotes from one, 6 weeks from another, and so-on.
They must be busy as can be... weeks we can wait, but the dollar is what matters.  I will keep you guys posted on this journey ;)
Thanks
Dom

I spent a little time a while ago,  figured there's lots of small machine shops in the Greater Seattle / Everett area, but they're all too busy with jobs from one of the larger aircraft manufacturers.........And based on what they told me, one place has to machine the blank, and one place has to cut the gears.....

Thanks noyb- I am going to start with my finest compound and give it a go.


As for having gears made- I was thinking China would be the only affordable option to have a run made that would be available for under $100 per. Unless someone can get ahold of the guy who bought all the Newell tooling and it is still set up ready to go......which I doubt.

I have called one gear-shop and he estimated over $300 per set even if I wanted hundreds of them  :o

One contact in China wants me to send them a set- a little scary for me to do since I am not exactly swimming in gears or moneys.  He has helped me get some tungsten bodies made for some spinners I make- he does know how to get things done in China.

Joel,
    You're right on about the quantity and the dollars, however there are shops that have a down time at some point. Those are the places I am in search of, and it seems that most of the down time is between government work. I would rather take that route personally because I don't wanna have to deal with the quality control and problems associate with that. I will keep you guys in the loop. I also agree that I'm not too keen on sending my only 6/0 set to china :-\
Thanks
Dom

I'm just throwin this out there, what bout shelby the bearing lady ? I have no idea if that's a good or bad idea, but I'm tossin out there......

Thank you soo much for this thread.

My dad contacted a few gear shops in Bangkok and they weren't that interested....... or cheep.

Well I'm having trouble with my senator again. I finally got the handle to come off after tons of hardwork and I took all of the drag washers out and saw they were those black ones that I think are carbontex and they were brand new. So I put a drag washer alantani sent me under the main gear and put cals grease on the other drag washers, and here's where I had my problem. I didn't pay attention real good to the washers that you put on top after you have all of the others in the main drag place and now I'm having trouble putting the washers that are bent a little bit and I got it somewhat back together with all of the parts to put the handle on but it's kinda hard to reel now. So after messing with it a but I still couldn't figure it out so I put the reel back together and everything works right but it being hard to reel and whenever I wind or put it in free spool it catches/grinds on something at a certain spot. Can someone please help me?

SharkboyEI, it sounds like the carbon fiber washer you put under the gear is causing the main gear to rub on the side plate. You can either get a thinner one for under the gear or grind the side plate with a dremel for clearance for the gear. Alan shows how to grind the sideplate in one of the Penn tutorials. If all the eared washers aren't seated in the slots in the gears it can cause the same thing. Check your drag stack first to make sure that they are all seated in the gear. Bob

I still need help with my 6/0 its about sharkin time so I need to gey it working correctly. My 6/0 still kinda hard to wind not near as easy as before I took it apart and put a washer under the main gear. Im not sure about the other wahers outside if the drag stack if I got them in the right order either. If someone takes their senator apart can you please take a picture of how it would look all together before you put it in the reel? I am getting 20 pounds at full but the star is kinda hard to turn once you get where it kicks in a bit and once I loosen it all the way I get around 2 pounds of drag. My last problem I have is when I put it in free spool there is a spot where I can hear the spool or something rubbing. Sorry for all of the problems/questions

Hello Sharkboy, I'm not sure which reel you have, I'm not even sure if it's a 114H or 114. Anyway, here is a picture of the drag configuration:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Picture2061.jpg)

About the rubbing, you probably knocked it out of alignment. Loosen all the screws on both sides of the plates and tighten them again.
See if that does anything.

Thanks soo much  :) ill try tomorrow and see what happens  ;D

Is it common for the eccentric 14-113 to become rounded so the reel won't shift into freespool, or did I do something wrong when I put mine together.  I just got back from a couple days of halibut fishing, and neither of my reels would shift into free spool. when I got home and took one apart the part of the eccentric than the lever fits on was sort of rounded so the lever was moving too far "into" gear, and not far enough "out" of gear.  I worked around it by loosening the drag to let out line, but it was a pain as we drifted off the humps down slope.  One of the other guys on the boat got a 25lb, but three guys 2 days one fish was slow.  But today on Puget Sound, we got 5 limits of spot prawns....

no, but it does happen....   :-\

Sounds like the clutch assembly. If you have the stainless yoke, soften the edge with a file or sandpaper, also check the jack if it's bent. You shouldn't shift the lever if it talkes lots of force to move it, you'll do more damage.

So I've figured out why it won't shift into freespool, but I don't know how to fix it.  It seems like the pinion gear is sticking too high into the bridge assembly.  If I push down on the pinion gear with the reel disassembled, it shifts fine.  If I don't push down on the pinion gear, it won't shift.  I have a stainless black pearl gear set, a stainless yoke, double stainless dogs, and a stainless shaft. I don't think the excentric jack is bent, it lays flat, I was wondering if its the little tabs on the end but I'm not sure how far up they're supposed to be bent.

Quote from: seaeagle2 on May 08, 2013, 09:58:02 PM
So I've figured out why it won't shift into freespool, but I don't know how to fix it.  It seems like the pinion gear is sticking too high into the bridge assembly.  If I push down on the pinion gear with the reel disassembled, it shifts fine.  If I don't push down on the pinion gear, it won't shift.  I have a stainless black pearl gear set, a stainless yoke, double stainless dogs, and a stainless shaft. I don't think the excentric jack is bent, it lays flat, I was wondering if its the little tabs on the end but I'm not sure how far up they're supposed to be bent.

If you use the original main and pinion gears, does it work?

What you're explaning about having to press on the pinion is normal. Black Pearl is on the right track, try different parts and see what happens. I have tested the gears myself and worked flawlessly.
Take a closer look at the yoke, you will notice that one side has soft edges, keep that side up. If that doesn't do it, try a different jack.
Don't be surprised if the reel works normal after  putting it back together as you have it  now.

I just pulled them out to compare with the standard Penn's, I did not see anything in hight
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/003-23.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/003-23.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/005-13.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/005-13.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/006-15.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/006-15.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/007-13.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/007-13.jpg.html)
I did notice that Black Pearl's pinion has a narrower groove for the yoke,  I'm talking a hair. I don't think that would be the cause.
Mine did fine, but I did not take them on the water as you did.  your test is more accurate.

First off, I would like to clarify that while I was fishing, this reel had another set of 4:1 helical gears non black pearl non ebay guy.  It wouldn't go into free spool.  When I got back, since I had the reel apart I put in the Black Pearl gears, still the same issue, but NOT caused by the Black Pearl gears, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was the BP gears.  I took you guys advise to heart and started swapping some stuff. The first thing I swapped was I put in a standard Penn Yoke to replace the Stainless yoke, now it's working....When I saw your pictures and you were using the standard penn yoke I started thinking......

No problem, my friend. I am gald that you found the main cause of the problem.

Thanks,
Alan

Mitch,
   I had the same problem with the stainless yokes I got... it made the free spool lever really tough to engage and disengage, eventually it locked up.
I did the same as you and swapped the yoke out to the original Penn yoke and perfect.  I wanted to stainless so I took a dremmel with the felt-ish tip and polished the yoke to a gleam and walla!
If that doesn't work throw some toothpaste for grit on the yoke edge and polish with that.
Give it a shot,
Dom

Quote from: seaeagle2 on May 09, 2013, 01:32:32 AM
First off, I would like to clarify that while I was fishing, this reel had another set of 4:1 helical gears non black pearl non ebay guy.  It wouldn't go into free spool.  When I got back, since I had the reel apart I put in the Black Pearl gears, still the same issue, but NOT caused by the Black Pearl gears, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that it was the BP gears.  I took you guys advise to heart and started swapping some stuff. The first thing I swapped was I put in a standard Penn Yoke to replace the Stainless yoke, now it's working....When I saw your pictures and you were using the standard penn yoke I started thinking......

My standard penn yokes are just for the pictures, I only use the ss yokes with ss gears. Just sand them or buff them, I'm sure you'll find a way to make them work.
My 114H's had the same issues, they're working just fine now.

Greetings to everyone,
I have used Penn 114H in good shape.
My question is the following-how can I determine the condition of the graphite washers in it?
I ordered recently two new graphite washers (I need 3, right?).
Should I replace the old washers with the new ones or not?
Here is the picture with the condition of the original washer:
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i636/1401/38/19f579367eaa.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/fp/f0364f79dee241ad8f86ff4caf5cf084)
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i623/1401/96/db69b3c5b28a.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/fp/4fe62bfe06e141adb6cdccc4051de7c1)

coralsea, that is actually a rubberized fiber washers with metal shavings.  It was commonly used in the past.  Order up some 5-stack washers set or if you want to go more, I have a 7-stack for smoother drags and higher range if needed.

There are lots of Kits on Ebay, which one (not expansive) should I order?

This is the stock penn 5 stack kit that you need.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-PENN-Reel-HT-100-DRAG-WASHER-Kit-Set-for-114H-114HL-114HLW-115L-6-114HSP-/151204026784?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23347659a0
This is a newer drag kit with carbon fiber washers and is a lot better than that old three stack asbestos unit you have in there, It will fit fine, make sure you lube the drags with Cal's drag grease.
You will have 5 carbon fiber washers, three flat metal washers and two flat metal eared washers.
The washers go in the gear with a carbon washer first, then a flat metal washer, then carbon, then eared metal washer, carbon washer, flat metal washer, carbon, eared metal washer, then carbon washer and flat washer. If you need any more help, let me know. ;)

Thanks, will look with the shipping to Russia.

The kit part number is 6-114HSP. You are Welcome coralsea, and Welcome! ;D

Hello,
I have a question: How one can determine when its time to replace carbon or graphite washers with the new ones?

When they get glazed over, and become slick. The texture of the carbon fiber give it the bite that is needed for a stronger drag.

thank you.

I tested the drag washers on my 114H reel today. They holded 17 kg (37,4lbs) and could hold even more..load ( i just pulled the line out)
The numbers mentioned are Ok or i did smth. wrong?

That numbers seems kind of high. the drag should be tested with the reel mounted to a rod and the rod bent to give you more of an accurate result. I'd say you are good with those numbers. If the drags are dry, it will give you higher numbers as well. We use Cal's drag grease.

thank you for reply.
like that?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cals-Carbontex-Drag-Washer-and-Reel-Grease-/400652454032?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d48bf4890#ht_0wt_0

that's the stuff!

thanks a lot.

I don't know whom may be monitoring this thread for new questions....so here's hoping. 

Is there a Newell, aluminum, reel seat available for replacing the stocker on a 8 hole, 114H?   I really don't want to full frame it $$$$$.  I'd appreciate the model number so I can chase it up on line.

I got a 114H on an old Seeker lifter rod with a car door mangled tip as trade for some work on another fella's gear.  It's working out to be a fairly custom reel on the cheaps.  I double dogged it because it was just 2 e-z to do (thanks guys) and carbon fibered the drag discs.  I scrounged some 114H2 aluminum bars and a brand new aluminum spool for 40 bucks off a guy here on the forum.  So now it's time to do something about  the reel seat which has some wrinkled up chrome.

Thanks mucho,

WOTHoyt

Charkbait has the 114 tib topless frame (T4) for $60 I think.  Might as well tib it up and make it a nice reel for killing the anticipated 100+ lbs BFT for the upcoming season.

I believe the Penn 114H requires a T60 frame which might be a bit more.

I know that Newell made a Black Marlin Special (wide version of a 114,) but I haven't seen one for a regular 114. If he did and you find it please post pics, I'm nits about Newelled Penns and that would be something to see.
Ron

My bad.  I kept thinking that was a 113 4/0 for some reason.

I have been pounding the net for any cross references that would lead me to a stock replacement piece.  I get a sniff here and there but they are all dead end leads.  The 6/0 is an island all to itself and don't get no respek!  Unless you fly kites with it.  Thought Mr. A.T. might chime in with a bit of his infinite Penn wisdom.  Ahhemm, that's your Que Alan..........

not that i know of.  i spoke to tom, the guy that made the 9/0 frame, about making just the reel seat.  it did not sound feasible. 

I found an old e-buy link..... 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penn-Senator-114H-base-spool-bars-screws-and-clamp-Newell-/121153752768?nma=true&si=0fGmSw92BhUkku7w9EDAPEYR3f8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It's pretty vague as far as the description goes.  The ad is so old the main picture isn't there and you can't enlarge the little ones. Probably a Black Marlin set-up.  The only thing that looks familiar to me is the bars...exactly like my set-up and mine has a "Penn 114HL" label in the recess.  I flipped the front one over so the notch is up so that my sausage fingers can guide the line on the spool easier.  So if the cross bars are the same...hmmmmmm??????????

Seems like Penn just didn't know what they wanted to do with the 114H.  They changed it so much and so often it morphed into a different reel altogether.  So does anybody know if the 114HL full aluminum frame is an 8 hole frame?  Might as well get a Tib or learn to like what I got.

Hoyt, the one piece aluminum frames penn made were all 5 holes. I made the standard width one into an 8 hole mod with larger screws

(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y502/MITSERVCS/null_zps740bc839.jpg)

The HLW is the same 5 holes.

(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y502/MITSERVCS/null_zps344ba9d8.jpg)

Final build on the standard width with 8 holes/screws

(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y502/MITSERVCS/null_zpseb8113be.jpg)

(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y502/MITSERVCS/null_zps0ce30f44.jpg)

Hope this helped!
Bob

No, Bob it was not helpful!!  The drool leaked out the corner of my mouth and got into my keyboard causing all kinds of havoc.  Damn!  IMHO, You are one sick puppy!  What is the name of your psychosis?

All kidding aside, that's a nice piece of work.  What I need to do is shut my yap and get back to to solving my own problem. Hopefully with as much creativity as you have shown with this fine piece of craftsmanship and ingenuity.  Damn!

Bob don't Play. ;)

Dear All,
That is what i have found inside of my recent used Penn 113 4/0 (Black)
I will use this kit to replace the drag washers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380685006627?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_63wt_1124
Should i keep or not the items with the figures 1 and 2?
Thank you.
(http://s61.radikal.ru/i171/1402/10/6c11ea0e6d35.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)

There is a better drag system for this reel that is described in several threads here. It works out to 5 HT-100 washers and another that replaces your number one. Your 113 can be built into a mighty fish getter, but to start I'd upgrade the drags and put a power handle on it. Your number 2 may or not stay depending on the results with the upgraded drag.
Ron

Quote from: noyb72 on February 05, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
I know that Newell made a Black Marlin Special (wide version of a 114,) but I haven't seen one for a regular 114. If he did and you find it please post pics, I'm nits about Newelled Penns and that would be something to see.
Ron

Newell's kit for the 114H is called "114HCK"  it only came ith the aluminum spool and reel set base.
It originally sold for $60.50
Base no. is RB-6
Speed clamp no. is SC-30
Use the existing support posts

Thanks,
PENN REEL NEW COMPLETE 5HT-100 DRAG SYSTEM #007X113H/340/345
will that fit 113 4/0 ?

The 113H is different than your 4/0. That one won't work.
The 5 stack modification is available for this reel. Unfortunately, there is no kit for it.
These are the penn parts you need for the 5 stack.

7C-60 Washer, Drag, Metal Drag Washers (Set of 3) (113)

6  6-60  6-60 Washer, Drag Washer HT-100® (140L (uses 3))
Message: using for 5 stack customization of the 113 reel.  

1  7-60  7-60 Washer, Drag, Metal Earred Drag Washer ONLY (113)
Message: creating custom 5 stack  

1  86-60  86-60 Washer, Drag, Metal, Round Keyed Metal Drag Washer (113)
Message: creating custom 5 stack  


The reason for six drag washers is that 5 are used in the gear and one is used to replace your part #1.
Or you can simply replace the 3 stack with the kit above and re use your parts 1 and 2.
The parts highlighted in red are from an invoice from Mystic Reel Parts in New Jersey.

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

Dear Shark Hunter,
Thank you a lot for the info.
Mr.Alan Tani  has above mentioned items?
is it possible to order directly from him?

Quote from: coralsea on February 07, 2014, 07:01:58 AM
Dear All,
That is what i have found inside of my recent used Penn 113 4/0 (Black)
I will use this kit to replace the drag washers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380685006627?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_63wt_1124
Should i keep or not the items with the figures 1 and 2?
Thank you.
(http://s61.radikal.ru/i171/1402/10/6c11ea0e6d35.jpg) (http://www.radikal.ru)

I will be making a kit for these with hardend SS metal washers and Carbontex Washers.  I have the metal washers, and unfornately but no Carbontex at the moment due to funds.  I need to sell more of the other kits so that I can buy more carbontex washer for the kit...its a vicious cycle.

Hey Bryan! ;D
Mr. Coral Sea lives in Russia. Scott's doesn't send to Russia. Do you ship International? Dawn?

Dear All,
Problem solved-)))
I ordered new kit.

OK ;)

I made simple LB test
Penn 114h original's drag washers easily hold 35LB. Pure drag, no rod help...
http://youtu.be/Sk5Adlo7-58

THAT is alot of drag....

I don't know that I would want to catch something that pulls that drag. That's a lie of course, but my back would hate me the next day.
Ron

There is a little secret involved...
I made tension spring almost...flat..I understand, that it is not quite a good idea to do this..
But..You see the result...

I am a new member who has been buying Penn for a number of years for fishing I do both in the Columbia River in Oregon and offshore in east Florida.  Decided I want to start rebuilding my own reels.  Have a number of 113's and 114's and 114H's and a few Model 49's 

Really like the short version of the 114 reassemble.  How do I get to the regular version.  Seems like a great place to start getting my head around the Penn design since I am concluding they are much the same in design

use the penn 1/0 senator rebuild.  it pretty much covers everything.  and welcome!!!!!

Need help. Got the HT-100 kit for the 114. Put that together but cant seem to figure out the rest of the drag assembly. This picture is what I have to work with.

Thin spring washer / metal spacer / thick spring washer / thick flat washer / washer with fiber ring

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w284/Inspectojo/114.jpg) (http://s179.photobucket.com/user/Inspectojo/media/114.jpg.html)

The thickest flat washer goes on top of the stack. Then the spacer. The felt one is optional, since you have upgraded the stack, There might not be room. The thinnest goes in between the handle and the star. The spring washer goes on top of the spacer.this might help.
https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/114_post.pdf (https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/114_post.pdf)



"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackles old online store over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

So the upgraded stack finishes with a thin metal washer. On top of that goes the thick flat one (So thin metal with thick metal on top?), then spacer, thick spring, star, thin spring and then handle?

Yes, That sounds right to me.
I have modified so many drag stacks. I do it without thinking. Based on the Schematic and your parts. Yes.
That is my final answer. ;D

Shark hunter....you like these 114s doncha?  I have a 114HL that I have done this and that to and I want to run something by ya. 

On the 114HL.  The aluminum cross bars..yeah those ones.  Do you think it would kill the strength to hollow out that recessed area where Penn puts those bogus aluminum stickers?  I want to open that up and polish them for the bling factor.  They would still cover more area than posts and I have some really long screws in mine. 

I also have a Newell reel stand on the 114 so it's a pretty tight unit but do you think I will be making it all wiggly again.

Hoyt

Hoyt,
I'm not a fan of the cross bars. All my 114's either have a full or half Aluminum frame, or just the posts.
I do have one 114HL that I picked up just because I wanted the rod it was on. Got them both for $100.
Its not that I am stuck on 114H's. I like all senators.
I say go for it. If it doesn't work out, you can always replace them or go back to posts.
Maybe someone with a little more experience with those Bars could chime in.

Hoyt, those cross bars stiffen up the reel better then the posts, but aluminum half or full frames are the way to go as Daron said. If you open up the center of the cross bars you are going to weaken them, then the posts would be the stronger set up. The cross bars are an aluminum casting & posts are brass. Why not just glue a s/s plate in there if you need bling.       RUDY

Thank you both for responding to my whackko question.  I like the full and half framed 114s as well.  Penn was well intended but a case of too little, too late on those.  I have had this one since the early 80s and we have some history.  First I got the "Light" bars then an aluminum spool, then the Newell frame and lastly another aluminum spool.  In all my infinite wisdom, I bought a half frame and I had an early 8 holer.  Yeah, yeah, I know.

The aluminum spacer bar is still available from Scott's for like 13 bucks +transpo.  So I am going to carve one up to see.  I kinda like the looks of those Tib frames with the triangle cut out in front.  If I do it that way I will leave some meat down there where the mount screws only go half way across. If it fails, I'll chop it down and use it to replace that one chrome bar on top by the harness lugs.  Always hated that thing!

The stainless insert is interesting but it adds mo-beef to an already suitable boat anchor.  Me thinks me will have some vinyl stickers printed up at a sign store. Whaddya think "Phish Phukkar".  Or maybe one of those BD fish skeleton lo-gos?  Got a better one...I'm open?  I'll have a minimum order made up, use 2, keep 2 and give away the remaining 99 of them here on AT site.

H

Let us know how it works out.

A lot of people don't like the aluminum bars...why is that?  I like the aluminum bars versus posts.  Any reason other than corrosion?

Hey all.
New to the board. Just acquired a few off season 113's on ebay.  Besides pitting and wear and tear they seem to be in good shape with good lockup and drag, but I'd like to still take them apart and at least lube them right.  Is there a full tutorial from start to finish on these reels?  This thread is definitely informative, but I'm still nervous to tackle this product!
One of the reels I got has a little squeak in it, and that'll likely be the first one I attack.

Welcome jj,
All the senators basically use the same parts. If your 113's are the black ones. The parts will still be the same. Just your drag stack will probably use 3 instead of a 5 stack.
Browse the Senator Section and go for it!

yeah, but if you can fix this, you can fix anything!!!!

Thanks to all of you, I am hooked!

Yes, it was cheaper before I found this site....

Quote from: thorhammer on February 09, 2016, 06:37:47 PM
Yes, it was cheaper before I found this site....

;D :-\ ???

Once I had disposable income, then I decided I needed to cast 500'. This lead to a bunch of abu 6500s. Thanks to Alan's tutorials I can rebuild one of those quit fast. A friend retired, he bought a boat, he needed a grandchild wrangler for Bouy 10 season who could handle the boat just in case, so here I am, just rebuilt a Long Beach I bought abused 25 years ago. and a MXJ6 I got off ebay, Jim likes to drive his boat around, albacore, I figure that a 113 or 114 would be ideal for trolling for them. Between fuel, bait, my gun habit and my desire for used reels to rebuild I may well have to get a job, I thought I was done with that, forever,

Know what you mean still working at 65, but can't afford to be unemployed with all my hobbies/lifestyle expenses.

Thanks for the directions.  They were easy to follow.

I did, however, have one issue once I completed the last step.  I went to function test it and noticed that it was freespooling just fine, but when I flipped the lever to retrieve, it kept freespooling.  Frustrated, I took it apart at least three more times to figure out what the heck I was doing wrong.  Before getting so frustrated that I did something stupid like crossthreading something, I went off to the pub and had a couple pints and went to bed.

The next morning, I realized that I had the drag all the way out.

>:(

These things happen.

I'm trying to upgrade a used - new to me 113h narrow in a Tiburon frame and it's giving me fits.  I've taken it apart 20 times now.
and can't get all of the washers to fit inside the sleeve and finally got out my caliper out.
I'm going Gear: Carbon-ssKey-Carbon-ssEar-Carbon-ssKey-Carbon-ssEar-Carbon-ssKey
My question is should all of the SS washers be the same thickness?
I'm getting
Keyed = .040
Eared = .0345
I bought SS Gear Kit  with sleeve last year this time and just making the discovery now!

I should have know it was bad news when I bought it at a garage sale with the pink pro gear handle on it that didn't fit.
-gary

The top CF washer can be partially above the gear. The top keyed washer will be above the gear. This is all normal. Install the coned washer, spacer sleeve, bevel washer, & star. Screw it all down snug. then remove the bevel washer & star wheel. Place a O ring or rubber band above the sleeve to keep everything compressed while you assemble it into the reel. After you tighten down the bridge in the plate you can remove the band or O ring & finish assembly.         Rudy

Got it. Happy B-Day to me!
New ss guts, Cal's greased carbon drags, Sal's arm, and last but not least... the oversized handle.
Backing it today and topping off with some 20# for salmon trolling the Marin coast.
Weird year, lot's of big fish stacked up at Dux already.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/gkolokousis/20160529_092731_resized_zpsmdaph9mt.jpg)

-g

Nice job on that reel.  I was thinking my narrow 113 would be great for salmon, too.  Because I drag balls.  I haven't heard about stacked big ones...where you getting this info? 

I'm south of you 20 minutes. Just sayin'.

This year started out with salmon on the coast from the towers back to the Pt Reyes lighthouse.
It's a late in the year pattern. It started out great, now it appears to be scratch. One day on a few days off.
It was a ghost town Tuesday. No one, not even the stick boats were catching much if anything.
Rock fish was a bust also, but we were not at the islands. But is was a flat calm day with whales, sun fish, and that
dam harbour seal that got our only hooked salmon.
-g

I just received a couple of Penn 113HLW's off of eBay.  One has an AccuFrame and it has excessive side to side spool play.  The bearing is bottomed out, and the spool is not original to the reel.  The reel dates back into the '70's but has an aluminum Penn spool instead of the chromed over brass Penn spool. This was just a cursory inspection as I haven't broken them down to a pile of parts yet.  I am wondering if I may have to shim the bearings. Problem number two is the eccentric isn't disengaging all of the way.  If you move the lever forward just a little, and then back, it will then completely disengage.  I'm thinking that it may have something wrong with the eccentric jack.  I'm asking if anyone might have any suggestions on things that I may not have thought of.

I'm sure much wiser people will chime in, but I had a 4/0 that had irregular eccentric lever play. When I took it apart the spring was broken

I'm thinking bound spring also, should be an easy fix once it is all apart. Shimming bearings is no big deal.
Ron

The play is about an eighth of an inch on both with the bearings bottomed out.  I'm not quite sure if shims are the complete answer.  I'll know more later tonight after I tear them down.  Both reels have excessive play, and both reels have spools that are not original to the reel.  Both reels are definitely from the 70's and originally came with chromed over brass spools.  As these reels sit right now, they both have aluminum Penn spools.

Reel Fishing Problems and Noyb 72 thank you for your input.  I never thought of a bound spring.  I spotted the problem with the eccentric as soon as I removed the bridge.  I saw a stainless steel yoke.  I removed it, ran the rough side over some Emery cloth and polished on some crocus cloth put it back together.  Tested, and it now works like it should.  I think instead of shimming the bearings, I will change the tail plates on both reels.  I like the newer bearing cups better because they are bigger and set in deeper, thus negating the need to shim.  Yeah, it is a little more expensive that way.  

I would like to say that I really like this site because it has fantastic people with a wealth of knowledge, that are willing to share that knowledge.  The people on this site are the salt of the earth.

I received a 113H (newish style, but still steel spool, with an accurate frame) from a friend. I wasn't going to mess with it this year but I have a charter coming up with a cousin that needs a heavier outfit so I figured I'd go through it.
I has green fiber drags that look to be in just about new condition but I ordered a set of carbontex anyway.
So my question is, there are 3 belleville washers.......I remember two that were under the handle but don't know where that third one was and the schematic (for me at least) isn't helping much.
Also in search of aluminum spool.

Spize, your drag stack's off: there should be a keyed washer between the 2 eared  washers. Just trade places between a keyed ana eared. Not sure 'bout the belleville washers, but with 3 I'd suspect that 1 of 'em goes between the star & handle. Someone with more experience will probably answer soon(I see what ya mean about the schematic).
Gfish

Yep drag configuration is off as stated.  My be your main gear was not notched deep enough and prior owner just re stacked em.  I just bought a Newelled out 501 from Randy at vintage tackle and it had those same washers.  No brand but look to be cut from a sheet of industrial gasket making material.  Tossed mine and went with a regular stainless and carbon fiber set up.

I believe those green washers are smoothies from SmoothDrag before Carbontex drag washers. Replace them. They were better than the rubber or abestos drag material but. It as good as greased carbon fiber drag washers.

Quote from: spize on September 14, 2017, 02:26:51 AMAlso in search of aluminum spool.

I have this spool in good shape. $20 Shipped in the USA. Send me a private message with your address and I'll mail it to you. You may pay me upon inspection and receipt.

Quote from: Bryan Young on September 14, 2017, 05:32:23 AM
I believe those green washers are smoothies from SmoothDrag before Carbontex drag washers. Replace them. They were better than the rubber or abestos drag material but. It as good as greased carbon fiber drag washers.

That's what I thought they were..........I remember buying some for one of my SL20's years ago when the smoothies were the thing.

Am I good with the washer stack for now or do I need to order parts?

Personally, I would switch them out to HT-100s or Carbontex.

Quote from: Bryan Young on September 14, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
Personally, I would switch them out to HT-100s or Carbontex.

I already ordered new drag washers. I was asking about the metal washers. I see now what I need to do though.
As for the Belleville washers, there must have been one on top of the last metal washer in the drag stack and the other two were on the other side of the spacer right under the star.
Seems like it would go the other way around.

It looks like you have pulled the drawing from an accessible drag 113H diagram.  That washer above the spacer and below the star is a washer /spacer with a felt pad that was normally oiled to help water from intruding into the reel.  It's not a spring or flat washer.

Nope. New half frame schematic. As this reel was basically a gift (payment for a favor sort of) and has a Tiburon frame on it, I can only assume what it is with my limited knowledge. What I do know is that it does not have the big hole or the cover washer for the accessible drags. It seems to have all the innards of my 4/0 that I already had. I am going to pull that one apart tonight and have a look at it. I don't remember how it all goes but I know that one is right at least.
Where do you get that little custom dog spring from?

Hmm, the only thin you get is more height in the stacks o your star doesn't bottom out.

looking at my 4/0, there is one belleville under the star and I am guessing two () under the spacer.

So never having a reel with a Tiburon frame......what I thought was some kind of pin at the top of the frame was actually a broken screw. I had wondered why there was such a short screw in the mix when I took it apart but left that to figure out later. It didn't break coming apart so whoever worked on this reel previously for my friend must have got it to stick in there with a dab of silicone or something.
So now I have a brass screw buried into that aluminum frame. Being the top screw it would seem to be absolutely essential to the integrity of the reel.
It is now flush to the frame as my attempts at grabbing onto it just resulted in destruction so I filed it down smooth. I'm thinking I need to drill it out with a reverse bit and hope for the best. I can always re-tap it for a slightly larger screw I guess.
You can see that broken screw in the pic I posted......pretty obvious to me now that it's a screw  ::)

I did get it all back together with the washers as stated above and it worked well. Great drag and great freespool.

Spize based on the stainless plate your clamp studs mount into I'm thinking that's a Penn frame, not Tiburon or Accurate.  Hard to tell since I only see that small corner of frame.  I've recently had luck with the freezing / heating and PB blaster method.  Grind a small slot in the remainder of screw, careful not to do too much cutting on the frame.  The hot and cold cycles get a little movement in the materials and the PB works it's way in there.  Finally spray it again, put in a little heat to the frame and try to turn the screw out.  I wore down the cutting wheel on my Drexel so it was a smaller diameter and wouldn't cut into the surrounding metal as much.  Good luck with it.

Quote from: JRD on September 16, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
Spize based on the stainless plate your clamp studs mount into I'm thinking that's a Penn frame, not Tiburon or Accurate.  Hard to tell since I only see that small corner of frame.  I've recently had luck with the freezing / heating and PB blaster method.  Grind a small slot in the remainder of screw, careful not to do too much cutting on the frame.  The hot and cold cycles get a little movement in the materials and the PB works it's way in there.  Finally spray it again, put in a little heat to the frame and try to turn the screw out.  I wore down the cutting wheel on my Drexel so it was a smaller diameter and wouldn't cut into the surrounding metal as much.  Good luck with it.

Thanks, what you see in the pic is what was left of the screw before I tried to just twist it out with my dikes......not realizing just how soft they are. I actually just managed to chop it off to almost nothing! I had a little left and actually tried cutting a groove in it after heating it some and hitting it with some penetrant last night. It was just too small and too soft.
I managed to drill a hole right down the center and ran a tap down that hole through the remaining brass. It worked.
And yes, it's a Tiburon frame.

Dog's trick...Easy-)))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxt2Imu4FFY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxt2Imu4FFY)

When you go to put it all together replace these drag washers with carbon fiber drag washers. The ones that came out look like outdated Smoothies from Smoothdrag. Carbon fiber washers greased with Cal's drag grease will give you much better preformance.              Rudy

I know that...

Hello everyone. I just installed new 5 stack carbon fiber drags in my 114 h and a 113 hlw which are both the models that you can take handle off and change drags. I tore down both reels cleaned and greased and put back together thinking I did a great job but next came time to test drags
With scale hanging and full spools of line I tied a loop knot in line hooked to scale and with drag as tight as i could put it by hand I am only getting 8 to 10 pounds of drag. I saw that I should be getting about 20 but keep in mind I am just pulling on reels cause I have not put on a pole yet. Any and all help will be more than welcome. Thanks Pete J.    Almost forgot I have 2 other 113 h models I havent even cleaned or anything else and they are showing 18 pounds and that not even with the drag as tight as I put on the 114h and 113hlw

Pete,
Take your drag washers out so you can see the grooves inside your main gear. These are the grooves that your eared washer's ears go in. Some grooves don't go all the way to the bottom. When you put 5-stacks in, the ears (tabs) bottom out so you don't get contact with the bottom two friction washers and the first keyed washer. This will also damage your eared washer. With a 5-stack the eared washers need to go a little deeper into the main. If your grooves don't go all the way down, you have a couple options. If you have the tools and skills, you can extend the grooves. The other option is to get new gears with the grooves cut all the way down. I think most of the aftermarket gears are cut this way.

-Mike

Go here: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=21206.30
Look at post #37

Thanks a lot and I remember that slot didnt go all the wat down and I move eared washers up one so they would work. Well at least I thought they would and I have the tools to do the slot but might just go stainless

a couple of things to look at, and these are all mistakes that i have personally made.  any chance that you have braid slipping on the spool.  any chance that your digital scale is set to kilograms instead of pounds.  is the star bottoming out?  could you have a VERY old main gear with the slots for the eared metal washers not cut all the way down to the bottom of the inside of the main gear. 

yup, these are all mistakes that i've made.  :-[

Took it all apart to check and what it looks like to me is the new 5 stack drag is way lower then the stock drag which in turn will not let the star go down far enough to tighten drag. I took new drag out slapped in one of the fat stock drag pieces then stacked on the 5 stack drag and it raised it up to where stock drag was and now I am getting 18 lbs of drag. I dont know if thats the right way to do it but other then that I would say it needs a seven stack minimum. Please let me know if it sounds okay cause I do not know 1/2 of the 1/2 of knowledge you guys have plus if need be I will take apart and take as much pics as you guys need. Thanks again

You can add it on top to get the right height. Basically using an extra washer or two on the top to give you the height. Keep your new stack below to get the advantage of the new drag .


Todd

at least it's working!!!!!   ;D

At the risk of being put on the biggest blunder of the year award list I took to the things I have done. I was using a spring scale the whole time thinking maybe its a piece of junk I noticed none of the ears on metals were bent and everything I was doing seemed right so i pulled out the digital scale to check the 113hlw before I took it apart and it showed 20 lbs went back to spring scale and low and behold I have been looking at the KG side the whole freekin time:( 8 KG is about 18 lbs. So very sorry about getting everyone all worked up thinking they have something new to figure out while times are slow. Now I have to take 114h apart and yank that extra washer:( good thing these are the easiest reels I have ever worked on and smooth drags are great my brain or eyesight is not

Pete,

No problem.  We have ALL had those moments.  Glad you got it figured out.

yup, done that a couple of times.   ;D

I do thank you all very much :d

Okay things are not going good on the 114h no mater what I try when I put drag stack in I get the max of 12 lbs and thats if I really tighten down the drag. The stock drag is at least an 1/8 of an inch taller then the 5 stack.
I have tried putting one of the stock fiber washers on the bottom to raise it up and I got 14 lbs then I tried putting the 5 stack in first with the stock drag washer on top and the drag went to 10 lbs
From the pics I put on you can see the differences in drags. What am I doing wrong. Thanks for anymore helpdrags 003.JPGdrags 003.JPGdrags 015.JPGdrags 007.JPGdrags 006.JPGdrags 008.JPG     

are your original metal washers thicker than the new ones ? .............. if so use those with the carbon fiber washers. I have put extra metal washers on top of the stack to gain thickness also. I don't usually us ethe old washers for spacers.


Cheers:

todd

yeah, need to switch over to all carbon fiber. 

https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-114HSP.aspx

and one of these to go under the main gear.

https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-114.aspx

Would you mind attaching a photo the main gear where the drags go into without the any of the drag washers?  I would like to see how far does the two slots goes down in the main gear as they could also add to the problem as to why you are not getting as much drag as expected.

I will post a pic later but the slots in the gear don't go all the way down but I arranged it so the washers with ears don't touch the bottom of the slots

Dawn is sending me thicker washers and if you look at pics you can see the stock drag and the carbon drag side by side. The difference in height is about an 1/8 to 3/16ths of an inch which makes me believe That my star is bottoming out and not applying the pressure that it needs but that's my guess cause as you can see I have been wrong before ;D 

If the star is bottoming out, then you can replace the thinner metal washer with the original  thicker metal washer or stack an original metal washer on the new stack to have equivalent height.

I tried that and it still was not high enough. I got drag up to 15 lbs that way thou and it still felt as if star was bottomed out

Quote from: ppvj64 on January 11, 2023, 11:00:49 AMI will post a pic later but the slots in the gear don't go all the way down but I arranged it so the washers with ears don't touch the bottom of the slots

I may be stating the obvious (and trust me, I have done this) but in the photos above comparing the heights of the two drag stacks (original and new) the washers are not in the correct order - I am seeing eared metals adjacent to eared metals and likewise keyed metals adjacent to keyed metals.  You mentioned arranging the stack so the eared washers would not bottom out but the entire stack must be in the correct sequence or it will not work to it's fullest.  Not sure if this was just for photo purposes but if this was the order the drag stack was installed in the gear it might help explain the results.  - john

I did just stack them any old way for photo but in when I put stack in gear I believe its right. More photos will be coming soon. Maybe a better idea would be to find a gear with slots bored all the way down?
where would one find that gear?

Order a new gear set from mystic parts or ss from pro challenger, or from someone on the site here . New ones will have the slot all the way down.


Todd

Thank you and I did look at the mystic one but I couldn't tell If slots went all the way down

I got 2 new CF washers from smooth drag today but only needed 1. I am getting 20.4 LBS of smooth drag so I am calling it good. I really have to cinch it down thou so wondering do Belleville washers go bad? mine barely has a tiny bump and it would be easy to confuse with a flat washer. Again thanks for all the help so far ;) 

you should be good with 15 pounds of drag and straight 50 pound mono.  much more and you've got to start worrying about the gears. 

Great to know and thank you for that bit of info. I thought that I was supposed to get 20 lbs and actually that should have been the first question I asked :-\ . Oops 1 more question, How much grease does 1 put on the drag washers like just a little or greasy were its bulging out sides?

I like to make them greasy but not over flowing.  Too much grease can over flow into the gears and then you might have a comparability issue with dissimilar grease.  If you use Cals for the gears then have at it.  Bill

Blue grease on reel cals on gears ;)

I wipe the grease off of the washers scrubbing them on a towel. Just like for a lever drag reel.

They are still waterproof like this. The drag will increase

Thats pretty much what I do. I just go by what smooth drag says on their web page and its worked great for me so far

Quote from: ppvj64 on January 15, 2023, 01:52:39 AMwondering do Belleville washers go bad? mine barely has a tiny bump and it would be easy to confuse with a flat washer. 

Want to kick this question along a bit... Once my presets are dialed-in, I store my 2spd lever drags with the lever in the Free position.  I don't back off the preset knob.  Never thought this was a problem until I had the bellevilles go flat(bad) on two reels simultaneously.  Coincidence or something else?

once in free, all of the pressure is released.  the bellevilles should not flatten out at all.   :-\

Well, it must be coincidence then.  I've swapped out the Belleville's.  Hopefully the new ones last longer than a season or two.  Appreciate your input Alan!