My father handed me a penn reel the other day and asked if i could find the missing parts for this reel.
Left side plate "surfmaster" Above the clicker is another shaft that goes to a brake shoe assembly .
It is missing the lever and nut , the right side plate say`s penn no 200 . I have tryed to find pictures and schematic of the left side plate with no luck.
Please can any one help me on this . I will try to upload a few pictures. thank`s joe
That is like nothing I have ever seen. I am assuming this is a casting brake, but possibly a "Sundown" drag feature to be used if a fish was in danger of spooling the reel. Looks to be very well made, and possibly an aftermarket part. I am sure others will chime in soon. Very unique piece.
Bill
Here is the link to Surfmaster 200 parts on the MysticParts' site: https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn200M.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn200M.aspx) :P ... Just now noticing you are looking for the parts for the braking control, but they won't be at Scott's. Looks like a drum brake to push against the spool.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
I don`t think this is afterarket or home made . More pictures . joe
My father lives in port charlote on a cannal and found this reel at a yard sale , hence the no history of this reel.
If more pictures are needed ask away :) thank you joe.
That appears to be a cast control setup to help prevent birdnests when casting in the surf.
There were many cast control and aftermarket items made for Penn's -- particularly after the war.
Folks had a little more time and money for leisure activities like fishing -- plus, many talented machinists that had been developing their skills during the war effort -- were very clever.
This could have been a one or two made by an individual, a fellow who made a few for sale, a shop that offered modifications and upgrades, or a product that never gained traction because of not knowing how to market or mass produce.
A knob or lever would have gone on the shaft -- as it was moved, more or less braking resistance would be applied to the spool -- which would control the rate the line might over dump off the spool when casting.
Pretty neat -- I suspect a few of the early plastic or bakelite spools were broken by over-torquing against the spool.
Doubt if it is factory -- but really cool.
Hope you clean it up, find a knob that works -- use it and report back to us!
Best,
Fred
I'm not sure what mods those are to that reel, but I'm pretty sure that's not factory. The "lug" attachments lead me to believe there was more to that "rigamareel" than what you currently have.
Neat piece anyhow,
Dom
Interesting design feature there. The reel appears numbered, and thus is post 1950 production. The brake casting mech. is likely an aftermarket ad on, and was likely used to apply additional drag pressure when needed, though it could have functiomed as an antibacklash device, as was suggested previously. Finding the missing control nut and/or lever may be nearly impossible, as this could be a 'one off' or done in small numbers. It's the first of its kind I have witnessed. You may need to have someone machine a custom part if you want to restore the mechasism's functionality. It appears that you would need a washer (or 2?), a spring washer (or 2?), a lever, and a retaining nut. Edit: or maybe just unscrew the threaded portion and mount a lever secured with a standard penn retaining nut? You would mightwant to measure the external Inner and outter diameter, length, and TPI (& pitch) of the bolt. I wouldn't be surprised if a penn part, or a common aftermarket part or parts were used here. It looks like the cam may have been produced using a standard penn eccentric cam.
Interesting reel.
Thanis for sharing!
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on May 09, 2017, 08:43:44 PM
Interesting design feature there. The reel appears numbered, and thus is post 1950 production. The brake casting mech. is likely an aftermarket ad on, and was likely used to apply additional drag pressure when needed, though it could yave functiomed as an antibacklash device, as was suggested previously. Finding the missing control nut and/or lever may be nearly impossible, as th8s could be a 'one off' or done in small numbers. It's the first of its kind I have witnessed. You may need to have someone machine a custom part if you want to restore the mechasism's functionality. It appears that you would need a washer (or 2?), a spring washer (or 2?), a lever, and a retaining nut. You would want to measure the external Inner and outter diameter, length, and TPI (& pitch) of the bolt. I woupdn't be syrprised if a penn part, or a common aftermarket part or parts were used here. It looks like the cam may have been produced using a standard penn eccentric cam.
Interesting reel.
Thanis for sharing!
John
I think you are rite , i have spent about 7 hours in the last few days trying different keywords for this reel .
I will take a few measurements and go back to looking at some schematics with lever winds. joe
John is probably right about the Penn parts --
Looks like the shoulder of the bolt barely protruding out of the bushing -- has the shape that will fit a Penn Eccentric Lever.
Why make a special lever, if they are already available -- and match?
Just a thought...
Best,
Fred
very clever!!!!!
Quote from: foakes on May 09, 2017, 10:18:34 PM
John is probably right about the Penn parts --
Looks like the shoulder of the bolt barely protruding out of the bushing -- has the shape that will fit a Penn Eccentric Lever.
Why make a special lever, if they are already available -- and match?
Just a thought...
Best,
Fred
Now this makes sense , that`s why the threaded shaft looked a little long.
Here is a rought draw with measurements
Very interesting, you just gotta keep us updated on the functionality of this anomaly, once you get it fixed up. It does kinda look like an eccentric lever or one thats modified might work.
Gfish
I'm wondering if whoever installed it ever got the thing to work.
Do the brake shoes contact the edge of the spool when the eccentric is turned? It does not look like they would reach. Also, there are no wear marks on that metal plate plastered to the spool flange. The brake shoes aren't magnetic, are they?
You could remove the eccentric and shaft then grind a sixteenth off the bronze/brass sleeve from the outside. Your local hardware store might have a brass cap nut and washer to hold an eccentric lever on.
I'd make sure it's going to work before looking for parts.
-steve
Have you ever had that nagging feeling that there is something more to a puzzle -- and in the back of your mind you have a slight inkling of the solution -- but cannot tune it in yet?
Woke up this morning at 2:30 -- got to bed at 9:00 last night -- so that is enough sleep -- went upstairs to a box of old Penns -- and pulled out this Squidder 145 with old maroon sideplates.
Never had this reel apart -- but it contains the complete anti-backlash system that Joe has part of -- on his Surfmaster.
When surfcasting, a backlash never happens until the sinker hits the seafloor -- this device senses the loose line -- and stops the spools rotation -- thus preventing a birdsnest -- at least that is my theory. It is very lightly spring loaded -- as well as super-sensitive. Could be the angler releases his thumb from the mechanism to activate the spool braking?
When I saw the attachment rivits for a bar of some sort on top -- attached to the rings, and the fact that Joe's measurements were much smaller than my comparisons to an eccentric -- that is when I woke up.
This particular reel works very well -- including the add-on.
At first glance, it is a well engineered and capable mechanism -- with at least 27 parts, plus the spool.
Notice that the spool has a race braized or welded to the side -- and it is very professionally done -- so maybe the replacement spool was an option on some of the reels?
Guess I should do something with it -- like maybe restore it?
This system could also be installed on a OC.
Michael will know much more about these devices, I believe.
I will do more research into who made this -- and I can't go back to sleep now -- it is 4:49 -- and I will not get to bed until 11:00 tonight.
I will do a little more research...
Best,
Fred
EDIT: Possibly similar to an Ocean City Far Cast reel? If anyone wants more pics, glad to provide some if requested. Michael will be along soon, I trust, to shed more accurate light on this subject.
This reel came from rancanfish (Randy) a few years ago -- never opened it up until now.
Quote from: oc1 on May 10, 2017, 09:28:16 AM
I'm wondering if whoever installed it ever got the thing to work.
Do the brake shoes contact the edge of the spool when the eccentric is turned? It does not look like they would reach. Also, there are no wear marks on that metal plate plastered to the spool flange. The brake shoes aren't magnetic, are they?
You could remove the eccentric and shaft then grind a sixteenth off the bronze/brass sleeve from the outside. Your local hardware store might have a brass cap nut and washer to hold an eccentric lever on.
I'd make sure it's going to work before looking for parts.
-steve
Beliveve it or not just turning the baer thread shaft with my fingers , puts drag on the spool . joe
Quote from: foakes on May 10, 2017, 11:51:28 AM
Have you ever had that nagging feeling that there is something more to a puzzle -- and in the back of your mind you have a slight inkling of the solution -- but cannot tune it in yet?
Woke up this morning at 2:30 -- got to bed at 9:00 last night -- so that is enough sleep -- went upstairs to a box of old Penns -- and pulled out this Squidder 145 with old maroon sideplates.
Never had this reel apart -- but it contains the complete anti-backlash system that Joe has part of -- on his Surfmaster.
When surfcasting, a backlash never happens until the sinker hits the seafloor -- this device senses the loose line -- and stops the spools rotation -- thus preventing a birdsnest -- at least that is my theory. It is very lightly spring loaded -- as well as super-sensitive.
When I saw the attachment rivits for a bar of some sort on top -- attached to the rings, and the fact that Joe's measurements were mich smaller than my comparisons to an eccentric -- that is when I woke up.
This particular reel works very well -- including the add-on.
At first glance, it is a well engineered and capable mechanism -- with at least 27 parts, plus the spool.
Notice that the spool has a race braized or welded to the side -- and it is very professionally done -- so maybe the replacement spool was an option on some of the reels?
Guess I should do something with it -- like maybe restore it?
This system could also be installed on a OC.
Michael will know much more about these devices, I believe.
I will do more research into who made this -- and I can't go back to sleep now -- it is 4:49 -- and I will not get to bed until 11:00 tonight.
I will do a little more research...
Best,
Fred
Fred that was next question about the extra bar on top with the plastic bushings .
you have the whole set up there . looks like a very unique lever i`m missing . Now you say this is on a 145 squidder, i have the look at diragram and have not found that attachment. joe
I have to work today, will be back later today. joe
This is aftermarket, Joe -- not produced at the Penn plant.
So you will not likely find it on a Penn schematic
Likely a niche market for a machinist who used to work for OC or Penn -- doing a good job.
Many of these guys really knew their way around reels.
They probably forgot more about reels than I will ever know -- and they did not miss too much.
You wouldn't tell them what you needed done -- you would tell them what the problem was -- and they would come up with the solution.
These guys were the Tom's, Adam's, Carl's, Ted's, Cal's and Sal's of their day.
We have a lot of talent today, on our little board -- that some might take for granted -- however, History shows us that this stubborn-work-it-out-until-perfect mindset, was with us for many generations before.
Just my opinions...
Best,
Fred
Wow Fred!
I can't believe you have a complete/working version of a reel with these exact modifications on your bench. There must have been an individual or shop that made a few of these. I agree the mods sedm to be inspired in part by the OC FarKast reels, and were likely aimed at controlling backlash while improving casting dustance when fishing heavier baits from the surf. Probably occurred sometime when the OC FarKast reels were still popular for durf fushing. Maybe in the mid 1950s through the 1960s era in the NE region (just a guess). It seems overly complicated, but ingenious at the same time. Now I am wondering how well it worked.
Looks like restoring the fuctionality on the origionsl reel in this post is likely a near impossible task.. unless of course soneone wanted to take the time/energy/money to fabricate parts to match those you have on the completed reel. Looks like a custom spool is needed here (amoung other things).
I am astonished our group found a matching modified reel here.
This post should really be moved somewhere where it is not likely to get lost.. maybe the collectors section?
John
You're amazing Fred.
So, the line playing off the spool pulls on the wire, the wire pulls the lever, the lever pulls the eccentric, the eccentric pulls the shoe away from the drum. When the line stops playing off the reel the lever snaps back and the brake shoe stops the spool. That must be a spring up against the outside of the side plate. What's the ratchet-looking thing outboard of the spring? And, why the cross bar?
-steve
Exactly right, Steve --
That ratchet wheel turns a coil spring similar to a bail spring on a spinner.
The Angler can preset this for surf and weight considerations, line test, and his best judgement for his application. Try a couple of casts -- make sure performance is optimum -- adjust for more tension or less -- then just start fishing.
What locks the spring-loaded ratchet wheel in place is the slide with a knurled tightening finger screw. A part of the slide locks into the ratchet wheel.
As soon as the sinker stops forward movement of the line off the reel -- the wire guide snaps back up -- stopping the spool rotation immediately.
Possibly the raised post is for the Angler to have a thumb rest when transitioning from casting to retrieve?
Plus a way to keep the wire forward when starting a retrieve or cast -- by resting one's thumb on the bar and wire -- instead of just the wire.
And possibly for stability and frame integrity.
This would take a little getting used to -- much like driving a manual transmission compared to an automatic.
But it would not take more than a few casts to master it --
And while it may seem complicated -- it is very well built -- well engineered -- and just smooth and dead-simple in operation -- even after 65 years.
If they had these today -- I suspect many folks would be using them for Surf-Fishing, instead of spinners.
The one I have, has been very lightly used. It will clean up to possibly a 8.5 or 9. No salt corrosion, excess grease, rust, or issues.
Best,
Fred
I figured all your described functionality out based on the photos, but I am still a bit confused about how the angler ensures that as soon as he starts reeling the brakes will disengage from the spool. I guess its fine as long as there is tension on the line, the wire guides will be forward and the brake shoes will not contact the spool. If the wire was heavier, one might be able to manually apply increased drag pressure by moving the lever or wires back when the fish tries to make a run for the reef. Though the automatic engaging nature of the mech combined with the fact that it will retard spool movement in both directions when engaged, does not make it well suited to the task of appling additional drag. I am intrigued by the notion of a drum brake drag mechasism though.
John
Well befor i went to work today ,i saw fred`s pictures . A picture is worth a thousand words / idears. when i started reading the posts today , You guy`s nailed it as far as what i was think all day about . 'just to be funny about it ' It is a well design thing for a man with pore thumb control. I am going to see my father in the next couple day`s and ask him what are the chanches are , that the man that he got the reel from just might have that strange contraption laying in a pickle jar .
Knowing that for me trying to find a replacement parts is going to be looking for a hen`s tooth in a thousand acker hay field .
Fred I can not thank you enought for the input and pictures. I also thank you all who post your input. I will contune to try to presurve this pice of history,
For all that look at this and think that they see a off the shelf part , please say so, i am going to try my best to restore this. I sure hope there is a pick jar laying around
joe
Quote from: Tightlines666 on May 10, 2017, 09:49:11 PM
I figured all your described functionality out based on the photos, but I am still a bit confused about how the angler ensures that as soon as he starts reeling the brakes will disengage from the spool. I guess its fine as long as there is tension on the line, the wire guides will be forward and the brake shoes will not contact the spool. If the wire was heavier, one might be able to manyally apply incrwased drag pressure by moving the lever or wires back when the fish tries to make a run for the reef. Though the automatic engaging nature of the mech combined with the fact that it will retard spool movement in both directions when engaged, does nit make it well suited to the task of appling additionsl drag. I am intrigued by the notion of a drm brake drag mechasism though.
John
John i think the cirkle spring is light enought that if the fish runs toward you, yes the brake is on but you can reel through it . some thing like a old car with drum brakes will stop better going foward than if you were going in reverse and hitting the brakes . best way i think it works . joe
Really cool to see that reel pop up again, Fred. I agree, it is definitely not a factory rig. It may be someone that was known by the factory, but aftermarket production anyway.
I'm not into display reels or I would have kept it. Very happy to see you kept it for yourself, along with the green reel.
Quote from: foakes on May 10, 2017, 09:11:19 PM
Exactly right, Steve --
That ratchet wheel turns a coil spring similar to a bail spring on a spinner.
The Angler can preset this for surf and weight considerations, line test, and his best judgement for his application. Try a couple of casts -- make sure performance is optimum -- adjust for more tension or less -- then just start fishing.
What locks the spring-loaded ratchet wheel in place is the slide with a knurled tightening finger screw. A part of the slide locks into the ratchet wheel.
As soon as the sinker stops forward movement of the line off the reel -- the wire guide snaps back up -- stopping the spool rotation immediately.
Possibly the raised post is for the Angler to have a thumb rest when transitioning from casting to retrieve?
Plus a way to keep the wire forward when starting a retrieve or cast -- by resting one's thumb on the bar and wire -- instead of just the wire.
And possibly for stability and frame integrity.
This would take a little getting used to -- much like driving a manual transmission compared to an automatic.
But it would not take more than a few casts to master it --
And while it may seem complicated -- it is very well built -- well engineered -- and just smooth and dead-simple in operation -- even after 65 years.
If they had these today -- I suspect many folks would be using them for Surf-Fishing, instead of spinners.
The one I have, has been very lightly used. It will clean up to possibly a 8.5 or 9. No salt corrosion, excess grease, rust, or issues.
Best,
Fred
I think the cross bar was used as a positive stop for the wire bale , to brace it for shock and to keep the full pull off the little internal cam and anchor screws on the brake shoes. Still in the class room and hopefully still awake ..... joe
After thinking about this ,i am going to correct myself. The positive stop is used for full brake , the ratchet index is used to adjust how much brake you want to apply .. joe
Hey Fred, if you want to sell that reel and contraption, please let me know.
Sid
:( Little up date , just got off the phone with my father. he said that this reel was sitting in the back shelf for a while . He is not sure who gave it to him .
Look`s like there is no pickle jar .... joe
A few years ago a friend of mine sent me some photos of a very strange Penn modified reel built on a 1950's Squidder 140. He saw the reel at a Tackle Show he atteneded. I had never seen one of these before, so I assumed it was an aftermarket gizmo reel built by a private inventor. I filed away the photos and never thought much of it. It had no Penn connect of papers or a box. So there was not much to go on. Being that it was a One-Off type of reel. I figured I would never see another one. Here are the photos.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/PENN%20ENGINEERING%20IDEAS/DSCN0161%20512%20x%20384_zpshyhjaetu.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/PENN%20ENGINEERING%20IDEAS/DSCN0162%20512%20x%20384_zpsite3syoa.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/PENN%20ENGINEERING%20IDEAS/DSCN0166%20512%20x%20384_zpsgpz7gpma.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/PENN%20ENGINEERING%20IDEAS/DSCN0168%20512%20x%20384_zpsvkziycna.jpg)
Seems like there are now at least three of these strange reels found. It is obviously some kind of anti-backlash device; but, it is sort of cumbersome.
I am in possession of a Penn prototype copy of an Ocean City Far Kast option, built into a Penn Surfmaster 250 by Penn Engineering. As far as I know, I have the only one, the quality is high, better than production. Nothing at all like this reel.
This reel we are showing here does not seem to have the type of quality that would be seen in a Penn Factory Prototype. Now that three have been found, I feel that some deeper research should be attempted and we should all be on the look out for more of these.
Thanks for sharing....
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15946
An ORCA Post from a couple of years ago.
Quote from: Superhook on May 11, 2017, 06:11:05 AM
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15946
An ORCA Post from a couple of years ago.
Good stuff!
Really interesting.
Thanks for locating, and sharing the post.
Great info there.
John
Actually, the strange thing here is that two of you have found two anti-backlash devices that are similar to each other.
There are dozens of patents from the '40s thru the '70s for these types of devices, seemingly mostly by entrepreneurial, non-company guys. Many or most have some sort of wire pivoting tension sensing bar out front. Some are long, some are short, some are big, some are small, some are complicated, others not.
The ones we have seen pictures of here is more similar to the works of Paul Di Cicco patent US3532288 than others. Not identical, but close. Bear in mind that details can change as an inventor continues to develop things.
Again, there are dozens of these devices and modifications, so I wouldn't be so sure as to pin the blame on Paul Di Cicco just yet, but it is a good place to start looking for those interested. I gotta add though, that among all the high-tech gizmos people have come up with, one of the most clever must be US7540441 to Jaclyn Caswell.
:) thankyou super hook
found this last night ,but i could not see the pictures . Not a member, but did sign up
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?t=5921
:) thank you penn chronology for your pictures joe
I just remembered I got one of those device, this one was sent to me about 4 years ago by my good friend Tom ( Irish Jigger )
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg.html)
He also sent one to Lee through me.
Thanks again Tom.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 11, 2017, 10:28:44 AM
I just remembered I got one of those device, this one was sent to me about 4 years ago by my good friend Tom ( Irish Jigger )
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg.html)
He also sent one to Lee through me.
Thanks again Tom.
Sal
That is interesting , brake that come in contact with the rim of the reel . joe
Yes Joe, very interesting. This is somewhat a simple design, but very effective... I really like it.
The spool slows down as the line lift the wire, this controlls backlashes.
I tried to find more information, but couldn't, it is somewhere on our site.
I know they came with instructions, Ido have those, but will also need to find them.
I'm pretty sure these were made in UK.
Sal
Found the paper that came with these, sorry it was just a nice note from Tom.
These don't really need instructions anyway :)
The UK one was probably produced by Don Neish who had a shop in north London called
Dons of Edmonton...
He is retired now but used to compete in various casting tournament with fixed spool
and conventional reels ,plus fly I think.
He would hang a spinning rod from the ceiling with thin cord ,spin a bicycle wheel as fast a possible , using the pedals,
then loop the line over a pin on the spinning rim.
He played around with ringing patterns by noting the distance the hanging rod moved.
I think he was the first on our side of the pond to experiment with small butt rings....5/8" dia and 3/4"long,
to reduce the size and slap of the coil that went up the rod with a spin reel.
The gadget for conventionals was called "Dons antilash".
Going to try to put all the pictures together for further discussion. One thing that caught my eye was the spring anchor screw.
My side plate screw looks smaller and more like a leaning post ,than a capture screw . I am trying to also add Fred`s picture,but i keep getting error message . joe
:D I just checked with my silver series 103c , click ratchet # 040b103 . this fit`s the shaft. Now for more brain storming .joe
Just lookin at the pictures, I kinda liked the one Sal has, primarily 'cause it's external and simple and mabey therefore eaiser to adjust or troubleshoot. Brakeshoes seem like a little bit a overkill ona plastic sideplate. Access with the Squidder ora Jigmaster(quick-take-apart-feature), wouldn't be that hard though. Surfmasters don't have that feature, right?
Wait, see from pictures oldmanjoe's SM200 does have that feature.
Gfish
Any chance of getting some video of one of those in action?? ::)
Quote from: sdlehr on May 11, 2017, 12:09:01 AM
Hey Fred, if you want to sell that reel and contraption, please let me know.
Sid
I think I might restore this to new with new old stock leather washers, and a couple of parts out of the vintage NOS bins.
Or maybe throw in a set of Cal's greased CFs -- to see how it performs.
Maybe when I take it down -- I can take more pics of the parts -- if folks might be interested?
Options are open at this point.
Best,
Fred
:) Fred You know i am waiting for you to tear in to it ,pictures and all measurements . I am thinking 1/8 inch brass flat stock for the arm and about .100 inch wire for the bale. I believe i have the click ratch figured out . As far as the spring i think i might have a candidate.
If any one have a idea for a part Please say so , i am all ears . joe
Fred I think this is a good candidate for a tutorial style thread....I know it's a lot of work, but as unique as this is, it would e nice to document this for all to see. Bill
Joe --
Since I am not a collector (gave that up years ago, after handling a few estate liquidations -- realized how quickly relatives, sons, daughters and wives would get rid of massive amounts of reels, parts, and gear -- that took maybe 40 or 50 years to amass -- for pennies on the dollar. Our "precious things" are just excess to be rid of for most folks) -- I am not sure how soon this would be a priority for me to get into.
So I just pulled off the parts you need, took some pics -- hoping this may help you a bit.
Surprisingly, this is not some hack or Rube Goldberg attempt. It has been crafted by someone, perhaps a machinist or watchmaker, or reel company employee -- with a lot of experience and simple cleverness.
Notice the (4) raised dimples to grab and tighten the mechanism -- the reversed inward teeth on the ratchet, slightly rounded at the corners -- the exact angle necessary for the slider/locker to interact with the ratchet wheel -- all exactly what is needed -- no more, no less -- a minimum of simplicity, form, and function.
And how many folks could install that spring with a tiny hollow rivet -- and make it smooth, tight, and effective after 65 years?
The thin nylon, or some other type of material spacer washer that goes between the ratchet and the top washer under the locking nut -- just broke in half as I was holding it. So I am substituting a copper shim to see how that would work. Should do better than the original, I suspect.
Hope this helps -- glad to help with anything else, if possible.
Best,
Fred
All back together so the parts don't get lost.
Best,
Fred
That's too bad, I was hoping to see a little more ;D
Is that spring coiled in the gear? also, is the tension really soft?
I'm trying to figure out how it works, it has to disengage at soime point or the line would snap. :-\
Very nice reel Fred, thanks for waking up early this morning to share it with us :).
You are full of surprises, and good ones.
Sal
The spring has really light tension, Sal --
However, as you rotate the ratchet wheel forward -- the tension increases until you have it dialed in to where you need it for the fishing conditions (surf, weight of sinkers, line test, etc.).
Then you use the thumb screw to lock the slide tab in place.
The spring is fastened to the sideplate with a tiny brass machine screw -- through a loop in the tail of the spring. Top side of the spring is riveted to the ratchet wheel with the tiniest hollow rivet I hope to never see again.
All it is -- is a line sensor to immediately activate the spool brake when the wire senses that the line has gone slack due to the sinker hitting bottom.
If you had it on your bench -- you would have it figured out immediately -- would also respect the design -- but would likely offer at least 5 good improvements. ;D ;D ;D
You just can't help yourself -- you are a Master Engineer!
Wish there were more of these around, so we could get other viewpoints and opinions.
Best,
Fred
Fred I can not thank you enough !!!! The pictures are totally different than what imagine ,thinking that the star had the two flats.
Ware as the picture shows that it is a clean hole . the dimpled washer has the flats. Also 4 dimples only giving you 1/4 turn adjustments .
I was thinking that the star had the flats and that the thumb screw was going to be able to drop in any one of the notches , giving you multiple adjustments. Again i thank you !!!! I am going to study the pictures more closely and see what i can do. A watch maker i am not, but i am still going to try... joe
;D point to ponder..... How hard is it going to to cast this reel ,when your mind is going to tell your thumb to be the brake man...joe
Thanks for the detailed explanation Fred, very much appreciated.
No Master Engineer here, just a guy that like to take chances at times.
Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but if you don't take chances, you will definitely lose :).
Thanks again Fred.
Sal
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 11, 2017, 09:41:24 PM
;D point to ponder..... How hard is it going to to cast this reel ,when your mind is going to tell your thumb to be the brake man...joe
I would suspect you just cast it normally -- starting out by thumbing the spool -- then letting your thumb off the spool immediately.
Then the line sensor will be in the forward position because of the weighted bait peeling off the front of the reel.
As soon as the sinker hits bottom the line goes slightly slack -- and the spring loaded bar moves back to the upward position -- thus stopping the spool, and preventing line overruns and birdnests.
With the amount of thought that went into this mechanism -- I would expect it to work well.
Maybe tomorrow I'll mount it on a rod -- and go do a little dry meadow casting to give you guys a report.
Might catch a Douglas Grey Squirrel.
Best,
Fred
The part that may take getting used to is after the cast when you move your left hand up to the fore grip. Remember to grab the line as you reposition your left hand because I think the wire will hold it too high to reach it with your thumb and index finger when the fore grip is in your palm. With fore grip in the palm you need to get control of line with thumb and index finger to apply tension and level lay it.
-steve
As i sit here trying to wrap my head around this , cutting up light card board for a template and trying to get the ark right for the bale. when the brake is on just the bottom bale is resting on the stop ? The upper part of the bar will be about 3 o`clock at this point? Or is it 4 o`clock? Meaning the top part of the bar sits on the side plates and the rear bar is not ? Also i am guessing that the spread between the bars is about 200-250 thousands ? Every picture thus far the brake is not on !! :) :) :) please,please , Fred can i get a picture and a measurement. I truly appreciate your time and patience , thanks again joe
Fred, don't go too nuts casting that reel, it may get squirrely. Sorry. ;D ;D ;D
This may help a bit, Joe --
Wire bail forward is free-spool
Wire back and up is spool brake activation
Spring tension likely has to do with fishing conditions, line size, weight of casted baits, and personal preference.
Vest,
Fred
Thank you Fred that helped a lot . If i am seeing this rite ,the bale can pass over the 'stop bar' ? joe
Right, just what you see, Joe --
I will know perhaps more with actual field trials -- was going to do it today -- but it is dark, cold, and drizzling outside.
So likely tomorrow to test and maybe hook a few Meadow Mullets.
Don't have a go-pro, and do not know how to post a video anyway -- but will take a few snapshots and offer any explanation that might be useful.
Best,
Fred
I've asked Joe to consider changing the title of this thread to be more descriptive so that others may find it more easily on searches in the future, something like "Aftermarket Penn anti-backlash gizmos" or something like that.
Sid
Good idea Sid.
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 11, 2017, 10:28:44 AM
I just remembered I got one of those device, this one was sent to me about 4 years ago by my good friend Tom ( Irish Jigger )
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2013%2016%20AM.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/Photo%20May%2011%205%2012%2049%20AM.jpg.html)
He also sent one to Lee through me.
Thanks again Tom.
Sal
Published on Feb 24, 2017
Penn 140 Squidder with Don's Antilash anti-backlash device - USA, 1960s Beachcasting Multiplier Fishing Reel.
Penn Squidder 140 was extremely advanced when it was first introduced in 1941 and continued to hold up to developments right through the 1970s after which it was updated with new materials and was still made until fairly recently. The example in this video is late 1960s and features plastic spool with fin airbrakes, ball bearings for long casts, optional anti-reverse and quick tool-free take apart. The intriguing device attached to it is a Don's Antilash, an add-on once marketed by Dons of Edmonton (London) which reduces backlash or overruns/birdsnests in casting multiplier reels.The line is fed through the front rectangle and tension on the line during casting pulls it forward and releases a leather spool brake at the rear which re-engages as the line tension drops toward the end of the cast. Don's Antilash was available for many multipliers of the era and, despite its Heath Robinson looks, actually works very well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Fishing-/14...
While searching for more info on who made the antiback lash for the penn ,I found this Youtube hit the show more info button!!!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Qxwe8bbN8
Oh wow, very cool Joe, thanks for finding that video. Almost 60 years old...not bad.
Sal
A little update I have been looking for / at US patents with no luck as of now . Sent pictures to my brothers , they are going to talk with all the old timers in howard beach , Far rockaway, Sheepshead bay ,Brooklyn NY boy`s . I have also been digging through toy boxes for parts to make templates if all else fails. MY FATHER is going to have a pace maker installed on monday, so i will be down at his house for a couple of days . I will bring my lap top with me to show him what it is intale to find his missing parts. It will also give me a chance to look in his toy boxes for parts.
Picture of possible template parts so far. joe
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Hack fabrication the prototype works ..... Spring from the weed wacker ,ratchet from the spinning reel copper washer and bail assembly.
a still pic and some video drop test and about 30 foot cast . Caution you may get dizzy , holding a phone and casting is not quality filming. joe having a error message with the video will figure it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA5CW93ango&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Sz6bcFeZo&feature=youtu.be
Good experimenting, Joe --
I went ahead and pulled another old dark maroon identical 145 out of the bins --
Cleaned and lubed the bearings on both reels --
Both have metal spools -- not airbrake bakelites.
Spooled both with fresh 15lb Berkley Trilene Big Game.
Both are the nice (IMO) 145 mid size -- not as wide as the 140 -- not as narrow as the 146 Jr.
Good size and balance.
Found a Fenwick 7' boat rod -- and a 9' surf casting rod to mount each reel on
I will try each on both rods -- see how the backlash is controlled, or not
Then we will have a little more information
Best,
Fred
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 13, 2017, 11:46:33 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Hack fabrication the prototype works ..... Spring from the weed wacker ,ratchet from the spinning reel copper washer and bail assembly.
a still pic and some video drop test and about 30 foot cast . Caution you may get dizzy , holding a phone and casting is not quality filming. joe having a error message with the video will figure it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA5CW93ango&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Sz6bcFeZo&feature=youtu.be
Nice. Looks like it works; zero backlash. Try some distance on a 10-12 ft surf rod?
Just came back from my fathers house ...... When i show him the reel .... ??? That`s what was missing ?
I explained how it worked and showed him the drop test , his comment was i think you have the side plate spool adjustment to tight
Showed him the little side to side play . We walk down to the canal for some test cast . When i tolled him watch the reel , that after i start the cast i will not have my thumb neer the spool.
I`m thinking don`t fail me now ...... Out of his mouth come`s GO ahead you alway`s had a lot of patience with taking apart bird`s nests.
Made about a 80-90 yard cast , the spool stops on a dime with 9 cents change . Not a loose wrap.... Serval more cast with the same results.
Tryed a little longer rod 6-6 to a 8 footer the cast were a little futher about 120 -130 yards , 3 ounces lead and old 30 pound test line.
Now to start looking for some propper parts to make this reel look like as it should be ....
One thing that i am going to do is make the lever arm a little longer , giving me arc and travel . I think this will help with a little longer cast ,also change the steep angle from bail to spool. joe
Good job, Joe --
Looks like you just about got it all dialed in -- just need to clean up the design.
Would your Dad know who he got the reel from?
Then would that guy know where he got it?
Might help us back-trace to original -- or at least a shop or general location.
How is your Dad doing after surgery?
Best,
Fred
Dad is doing fine .. I asked him again about the reel`s origin , he still is not sure who gave it to him.
My hopes of parts in a pickle jar are fadding.. I will spend more time serching for the maker .. joe
;D ;D I belive i found the designer......John Pasanen . /www.google.com/patents/US2607547 When you click on the picture, also click on top were it says 'ORinginal Image that will give youa exploded veiw that you can mouse around !!! joe
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 17, 2017, 04:25:53 PM
;D ;D I belive i found the designer......John Pasanen . /www.google.com/patents/US2607547 When you click on the picture, also click on top were it says 'ORinginal Image that will give you a exploded veiw that you can mouse around !!! joe
Wow! Google Patents... who'da thunk it? Nice Internet fishing catch! /Joe
Quote from: Decker on May 17, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 17, 2017, 04:25:53 PM
;D ;D I belive i found the designer......John Pasanen . /www.google.com/patents/US2607547 When you click on the picture, also click on top were it says 'ORinginal Image that will give you a exploded veiw that you can mouse around !!! joe
Wow! Google Patents... who'da thunk it? Nice Internet fishing catch! /Joe
I feel like a dog with a bone ..... I can `t let go .... hook ,line and sinker..... joe
Well, I'll be darned. Great job Joe. The line runs through the wire, not over it.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 17, 2017, 09:17:30 PM
Well, I'll be darned. Great job Joe. The line runs through the wire, not over it.
-steve
Correct .. I am sum what surprized that there are not more of these around .... joe
I am google out ... I tryed to see if john had any more patents ,production numbers,or advertiments , all dead ends so far.... joe
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 11, 2017, 07:50:53 AM
Actually, the strange thing here is that two of you have found two anti-backlash devices that are similar to each other.
There are dozens of patents from the '40s thru the '70s for these types of devices, seemingly mostly by entrepreneurial, non-company guys. Many or most have some sort of wire pivoting tension sensing bar out front. Some are long, some are short, some are big, some are small, some are complicated, others not.
The ones we have seen pictures of here is more similar to the works of Paul Di Cicco patent US3532288 than others. Not identical, but close. Bear in mind that details can change as an inventor continues to develop things.
Again, there are dozens of these devices and modifications, so I wouldn't be so sure as to pin the blame on Paul Di Cicco just yet, but it is a good place to start looking for those interested. I gotta add though, that among all the high-tech gizmos people have come up with, one of the most clever must be US7540441 to Jaclyn Caswell.
Before i foget Thank you Robert for sparking the idea to look at patents.
"Bear in mind that details can change as an inventor continues to develop things"
That seams to be true here also ,pretending to the arm detail "bar spring verses thumb wheel screw to hold adjustments"
I am at the cross road which one do i make ,maybe i will make one of each... :)
Anybody have any junk drag washers, looking for both keyed and non keyed washers . Example drag washers from 130 pin reel for the key-- .187 bore/.
.142 between the flats. the non key i am looking for .250 bore and any outside dia .500-.600 will work.
thanks joe
Great work, Joe & Others --
Now someone needs to do a search on Mr. Pasanen -- could be that a search would reveal much more -- including maybe a son or daughter that may have more information -- and maybe even other interesting things -- including a complete kit for a Penn reel.
His skill and talents should be showcased, whether he has passed on, or is still with us.
Depends on what the family is comfortable with.
Best,
Fred
This "might" be the guy http://1940-census.mooseroots.com/l/102119697/John-Pasanen
Fred i tyed searching all infomation ,all dead ends so far ...other than he may have passed away in 1979. I did pass on the info to my father ,just in case he may know who possibley gave him the reel , with a slight possible of family connection. But i won`t under estimate the powers of others who have far better computor skills....joe
Quote from: sdlehr on May 18, 2017, 03:33:08 PM
This "might" be the guy http://1940-census.mooseroots.com/l/102119697/John-Pasanen
Sid I belive this is him . I belive he move from the city to Merrick long Island === Can`t back that with Merirk records...... Any Facebook Magicains ?
This is turning into a Sherlock Holmes Novel.....great work guys....I am enjoying this immensely. Bill
When to the hard ware store and pick up some brass stock ,064-1" strip and .094 rod.
Made 2 arms and 1 bail still in the rough .....I will not finish them untill i make the rest of the parts and fit them.. joe
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 18, 2017, 03:13:39 PM
Before i forget Thank you Robert for sparking the idear to look at patents.
You're welcome. One can often find out a lot that way. Not always though. I noticed that Pasanen was cited in the Di Cicco patent.
A lttle more progress. trying to make the ratchet gear,still need to cut them out of the stock yet. I am leaving a blank in one qurdrent to drill and tap for the anker screw on the clock spring. Just like the original plan.. joe /patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US2607547-1.png
A little more progress two rachets and a lock strap made out of brass instead of spring steel.
Brazed the bail to the arm ,than the mishap happen , too hot and one ear drops off . Reposition the arm and built up the missing ear, and tied in the bail wire .
A lot more file work but i think it will clean up, if not i just make another one... joe
I'm impressed, Joe, both with your talents working with these materials as well as your tenacity to see this through. Well done.
Sid
Thank you Sid ... I am wondering what this reels are worth . Seeing that you can buy them basic for 25 -40 dollars.
I am just intrigued with the working of them ,and i don`t surf cast. joe
Joe, you might want to try silver solder. It's quite tough and melts at a little lower temperature then brass rod. Rudy
I have some silver solder ,i will have to try it .. thanks Rudy. joe
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 21, 2017, 02:04:58 AM
I am wondering what these reels are worth .
Not nearly as much as the time you have put into it....
Sid
;D Labor of love.....
Has any one used this spray on crome plating on reels yet ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9-wFTUhpT4
I do paint and body work and I have look in to this but it is very expensive and may just look like dull aluminum ,,ppg,, is a major paint company thay tryed but failed at making chrome paint.
So this is more like the crome spray paint you can get in the hardware for 6-8 dollars ? Another words still a paint base and not chemical strong ? joe
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 21, 2017, 01:07:47 PM
So this is more like the crome spray paint you can get in the hardware for 6-8 dollars ? Another words still a paint base and not chemical strong ? joe
INteresting process. I would guess that it is more than a chrome paint; clearly there is a chemical reaction occurring on the surface of what is being "painted". For me, the test would be scratch-resistance. I'm guessing the surface coat isn't very hard; not nearly as hard as plating.... but it would appear to be quite glossy.
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on May 21, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on May 21, 2017, 01:07:47 PM
So this is more like the crome spray paint you can get in the hardware for 6-8 dollars ? Another words still a paint base and not chemical strong ? joe
INteresting process. I would guess that it is more than a chrome paint; clearly there is a chemical reaction occurring on the surface of what is being "painted". For me, the test would be scratch-resistance. I'm guessing the surface coat isn't very hard; not nearly as hard as plating.... but it would appear to be quite glossy.
Sid
it is a little bit better than a hardware spray can,,,alsa at $55.00 for 4oz and then you clear coat it with automotive clear,,,so it's as scratch resistance as you car,,,i would love to do a rod blank for my 9/0 with this stuff just to see what it really looks like dry not wet like in all the pictures
any rod builders here :D
;D All part`s made for the original handle design . Pretty much the shapes and contorts are there , the lock bar is a little longer than i wanted . But i need to keep it a long and thin it down to get it springy... I have most of the parts for the later design handle made , still got to make the lock plate... Some pictures ....
The 4 40 screw looks a little to big , but that is what i have to work with ....
When i get a chance to do some long cast , i will hang it on "fruit loops " a 9 foot stick.. Just too many trees ,windows and wind shields in the neighbor hood ....
Once i feel this works well enough ,i will finish sanding and polish the h--- out of it . joe
Superior effort and work, Joe --
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on May 24, 2017, 01:47:17 AM
Superior effort and work, Joe --
Best,
Fred
Fred I can not thank you enough for all your information and your pictures ....
Have you had the chance to do some test casting yet ? Interested to see how many adjustments you may need for varying conditions .
Just finished making the second arm with the sliding lock assembly .... Now all that is left is to sand and polish all the parts... More pic Again thank you . joe
You do nice work Joe.
-steve
I'm impressed.
Quote from: sdlehr on May 24, 2017, 01:48:35 PM
Quote from: oc1 on May 24, 2017, 07:37:55 AM
You do nice work Joe.
-steve
Quote from: Tightlines666 on May 24, 2017, 08:20:30 AM
I'm impressed.
x2, x2
Thank you Gentlemen Glad it was not a waste 14 dollars worth of brass......
I sill wonder what the original price was for this add on device ......and how many are around ?
Wonder what it is worth????
joe
The original Anti-Backlash device you modded yours after, Joe -- works very well -- no backlash at all in five casts.
No idea what the price point for the device would have been in 1952, or so.
Do know that a Squidder sold for $25 FTV, and a Surfmaster was the "Poor Man's Squidder" -- that sold for around $14 -- $15 in those days.
My loose suspicion would be that the kit -- (if even available separately, or even mass produced as a kit, would be in the $15 - $20 range) -- plus knowledgeable installation labor.
If these were ever offered as an add-on -- it could be that the only way to get it was to go to the source, or to go to a tackle repair shop that handled these on a limited basis for surfcaster anglers.
There would be some specialized, precise, and delicate installation work required -- not everybody could or would be able to install it properly -- without ruining the tail-plate.
There are still too many pieces of this puzzle missing to know very much more -- without finding a relative, co-worker, installation directions, owners manual, advertisement, original kit, etc...just guesses on our part.
I also suspect that since there are so few of these around (2 or 3?) that they were not widely distributed -- just as more of a specific item for those wanting one.
The fact, that-- as a knowledgeable group of Penn collectors -- we have seen so few of these -- leads me to think they were a clever and good idea -- that for any one of a dozen reasons -- were not mass marketed.
As to current price, like with anything of collector value -- any $$$ number is pure conjecture -- until one sells the item -- then the exact price is known for that day. And these prices can vary quicker than the weather.
Again, great craftsmanship, Joe.
Best,
Fred
:) It`s funny to think that a new reel is only 12 - 25 dollars ,but back than the average man`s salary was about 60 dollars a week .
A person had to save for a couple months to buy his new pride and joy.. Than had to save more to have it hot rodded ...
Where is Sherlock Homes ,WE need some help to solve the mystery ....
I guess you can`t back track you`r reel either . I know my father picks up rods and reels from yard sales , most are from Snow birds .. I am still working on him "Think man think" I say this jokingly be cause that`s all i herd growing up...
My best guess is this going to be a shop in New York did the work . Sadly the people that may know more are not on the internet , you can`t get my father near a computer. Looks like old school information hunting " Verbal Communication " joe
Hopefully, with the opening up of this subject -- someone will be able to uncover the story behind the device, Joe --
We have a good network of folks to help in this search.
My plate is full right now -- however I am confident the information will surface.
New information will come to light.
Best,
Fred
I found my cratek kit . What a time saver they are... Followed up with white buffing compound ..
I might be able to start a fire with the Florida sun shine !!!! joe