Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => Fishing Antiques and Collectables => Topic started by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 10:36:33 AM



Title: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 10:36:33 AM
If you have any old, weird, historical, or unusual reels -- post some pics.

These could be any open face, closed face, or other types of spinners that are not conventional reels.

This is good sharing -- and we who love old spinners can see some different reels that have likely not been made for decades.

I have crates and crates of these -- and will probably share a couple reels a week, if this takes off -- and if it seems to have some interest among our members.

These are just the crates I have gone through to make lamp bases out of -- probably another 20 crates that I haven't looked into for a decade, or more.  Can't recall the contents.

Many brands have not been around for a half century, or more.

This isn't about how many reels we have -- someone may have only a few -- others may have hundreds -- it is about IDing, history, engineering, comparing thoughts and opinions -- all showing a path to where we are today.

For many years, reel collector purists have criticized spinners -- but while their opinions are valid for them -- for others, like me -- who could not ever afford the Kentucky reels, VomHofes, etc.  -- spinners have been plentiful and relatively inexpensive.  Today, it is hard to find an angler -- outside of HD salt water fishers -- who did not grow up with spinners.

Spinners have been around for over a century -- and have earned their place.

As we share -- We will all learn...

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 12:52:40 PM
Here is one to start out --

A large, old Langley spinner from the 50's or 60's, maybe?

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Great Maudu on August 26, 2017, 03:26:54 PM
Here's one for you Fred. From Australia. Looks like it runs on compressed air.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 04:11:46 PM
Pretty cool, Mike --

Do you think that is a factory build, homemade, or a modification?

That is similar to how I hang my air tools in the mechanic shop --

Just attach a 2" angle steel , 6' long above the bench -- drill holes and insert a row of female coupler quick connectors -- then just plug in the air tools every 3 inches, or so.

Pretty unique reel!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Great Maudu on August 26, 2017, 04:50:05 PM
It's a Grace and Young Orlando Supreme. Just how it left the factory except for the "patina".


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on August 26, 2017, 06:30:56 PM
That Langley Spinator may have a bigger place in history than one might think.  If I remember the story right, that reel (and maybe some other Langleys of the same era) impressed Zebco enough to get them to buy Langley so as to get a toehold in the spinning reel game, which, to that point, Zebco had not been in successfully.  And we all know where Zebco went after that.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Dominick on August 26, 2017, 06:38:22 PM
Fred you come up with stuff I never heard of.  Good work.  Dominick


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 08:24:45 PM
Thanks, Dominick --

For me it is just a lot of fun learning about the old reels, the companies, the mergers and acquisitions, and the companies that just faded into the sunset.

Speaking of that, I owe Frank (happy hooker) a big thank you on the Langley/Zebco connection that I never knew about.

His post jogged my memory -- sure enough, I remembered having seen something like that before out in the storage.  So I poked through a few crates -- and came up with (6) Zebco reels just like the Langley's.  Color is the only difference.  These operate just like new -- crisp bail snap, metal, smooth.

There are 777s and 822s.

Parts will interchange exactly with the old Langley's.

This is how we all share and learn --

Plus, I found in the same bin -- another old French Centaure, a Pflueger Pelican, and an unused Cardinal 54 -- made in Sweden.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on August 26, 2017, 09:35:40 PM
Had a cardinal 54. Was pretty solid reel with a good drag. Then I busted the spool by reeling in most of the line under alota pressure.
Gfish


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 26, 2017, 09:39:14 PM
If you still have the reel, Greg --

I probably have a spool.

Best,

Fred

Edit: Found a couple of loose new old stock spools --


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 27, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Here's some interesting under-rod spincast reels from the 1964 time frame that you don't see often. They were all made by Shakespeare and called "Punch Buttons". The reel attached under the rod and was held in the right hand. To cast you grab the line with your right index finger just like an open face spinner, "punch" the button on the rear with your left thumb, cast with your right hand and reel in with your left hand. Here's a quote from the 1964 South Bend catalog: "New 23 hang down spinning reel. Newest sensation in spin fishing. A closed face reel with dependable SB features. Casts like any other spinning reel yet incorporates the twist free principal of a closed face reel. No bail to open, push button release at back of reel allows instant release for quick accurate casts." They obviously didn't catch on real well since by 1967 they were no longer listed in South Bend's catalogs.

Left to right: Shakespeare 1875; Shakespeare 1725; South Bend 23; Sears 535.39730; Ted Williams 430  
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_3_38_37_21200540.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_3_38_36_212001763.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_3_38_42_212001372.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_3_38_42_21202884.jpeg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 27, 2017, 03:41:52 PM
Those are beauties, Tommy --

Short lived production -- but quality reels.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on August 27, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
Nice reels!

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on August 27, 2017, 06:46:52 PM
Fred, thanks. I'll check when I go back to Cali. I recall I bought it in 1980, promptly broke the spool and thought "Man!, plastic!?, fishing reel quality is goin downhill! Glad I still got my MG 300&306".


Interesting: under-rod spincasters. I guess you could do the same to cast a standard spincaster, 'cept you'ed have to learn to reel the opposite way with your left hand. Still you'ed get better casting/reeling balance that way. I like the star drag feature. I don't believe the hype about no line twist, though.
 Somethin about those spincasters, the first reel my 5yr. old self ever used. I've always had to have one. Have a Diawa Goldcast now, with none of the usual Diawa low-quality-materials issues(yet) and its gotta oscillating spool system. Love to have that feature + a star drag in the same reel.
Gfish


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on August 27, 2017, 06:47:35 PM
Tommy, those "Punch Buttons" are interesting; I suppose they have the drawback that most closed face spin casters have (or supposedly have) of reduced casting distance, but maybe the benefit of fewer line tangles.  Ever actually use any?

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 27, 2017, 07:00:33 PM
Tommy, those "Punch Buttons" are interesting; I suppose they have the drawback that most closed face spin casters have (or supposedly have) of reduced casting distance, but maybe the benefit of fewer line tangles.  Ever actually use any?

Frank

I've never fished with one. When I got the first one I stuck it on a rod, stretched the mono, took it out in the back yard and cast it a few times. It cast fine but seemed a little awkward to use. I suppose once a person gets used to it things would just be "old hat". One drawback, just like any other spincast reel, is small spool diameter and lack of line capacity. The small diameter of most spincast spools seem to magnify line memory and coils, which in turn limits casting distance. otherwise they are nice working reels. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 27, 2017, 09:06:21 PM
This is a spinning reel that few people even know existed, let alone have ever seen. It's the Zebco 1970.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_08_58_212191514.jpeg)

In the late 1960s the Zebco tooling purchased from Langley began to show a lot of wear. Zebco wanted to manufacture a high quality spinning reel so R.D. Hull oversaw the design and production of their new reel named the Zebco 1970 for release in 1970. One hundred preproduction models and twelve clear plastic salesman samples were made. Zebco had contracted with ABU for distribution of the Zebco Cardinal line so a decision was made to not go into full production of the 1970 and compete with the Cardinals. The preproduction models are all that were ever manufactured. Here's an in depth look at the reel and design. An interesting feature of this reel is that the body, rotor & spool are plastic, some form of ABS I think, and the oscillation gearing has one nylon and two plastic gears. The two small plastic gears are permanently pinned and non-replaceable. The pinion worm gear ball bearing has a plastic/nylon case & dust shield and metal ball and center race/bushing. It has a standard type bail and bail trip lever.   

These photos show some of the inner parts of the reel. It had never been opened so the grease was original 1970 issue.
 
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_01_57_212062331.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_01_57_21205737.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_00_21208174.jpeg)

This is the pinion with the bearing attached.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_01_59_212071703.jpeg)

Here all the parts have been removed, cleaned and ready to reassemble.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_06_212111962.jpeg)

Here is an interesting comparison. The Zebco Cardinal 6 was introduced in 1967. It has been thought that Zebco used some of the Cardinal features in their 1970 model. In both photos the parts on the left are from a Cardinal 6 and the parts on the right are from the Zebco 1970. The bearing retainers are similar with three screws and bail trip post. The pinion worm gears are stainless steel and both have the linear tooth for the anti-reverse lever to wedge into, both have the o-ring to reduce noise and both pinion gears have a bronze or brass insert tube.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_03_212101485.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_02_212091474.jpeg)

Here you can see the plastic body, sideplate and rotor. The body and sideplate have bronze bushings molded in place to support the main gear. You can also see the two in-place plastic oscillation gears. The reel foot is two piece stainless steel and riveted to the body. BTW, the Zebco 1970 can be switched from left hand to right hand wind.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_07_212121874.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_10_212132287.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_11_212141821.jpeg)

These two photos show the internal parts of the reel on reassembly with the main shaft attached. The large oscillation gear is nylon, oscillation block is plsastic and the main gear is bronze.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_14_21215803.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_15_212161782.jpeg)

The drag stack is in the spool. It consists of a spring washer, flat washer, spring washer, thick plastic (ABS?) washer and retaining ring.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_01_54_212041843.jpeg)

Here it is all put back together with it's box and paperwork.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_18_212171841.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_27_08_17_8_02_19_212182068.jpeg)

An interesting reel with an interesting history that never made to the store shelves. Only one hundred preproduction reels were manufactured and very few have survived. It has some high quality features but I've often wondered how long the plastic oscillation gears and bearing case would have lasted under heavy use, or how long the riveted foot would have held up under heavy torque and/or twist. 

 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: bhale1 on August 28, 2017, 12:17:16 AM
Tommy,
Wow! Thanks for taking us along with you on such a unique and interesting reel. Great write up and pics! I guess we'll never know about it's long term durability,  as you said. It sure looks like they were tooling up to make a mass production reel,so it probably would have been relatively cheap $$...
Brett


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 28, 2017, 06:19:41 AM
Thank You, Tommy -- 

Very interesting history.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: thorhammer on August 28, 2017, 06:47:41 AM
Fred, great idea. I have a few to dig out.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 28, 2017, 07:42:36 AM
Here is an old Ocean City 320 --

Check out the crank handle on this big old reel -- interesting design.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 28, 2017, 09:49:25 AM
Those old punch-buttons must be fairly rare, Tommy --

Looked through about 100 in bins slated for lamps.  

Found many top mounts with a common top push button release -- but so far, only one of these -- an old Southbend Spin Cost 23.

There are around 300 pounds of old spincasters in other crates that I have not ever gone through -- might find one or two in there, who knows?  Might have time to check them out in a couple of years.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 28, 2017, 10:17:56 AM
Those old punch-buttons must be fairly rare, Tommy --

Looked through about 100 in bins slated for lamps.  

Found many top mounts with a common top push button release -- but so far, only one of these -- an old Southbend Spin Cost 23.

There are around 300 pounds of old spincasters in other crates that I have not ever gone through -- might find one or two in there, who knows?  Might have time to check them out in a couple of years.

Best,

Fred

Nice find, Fred! Now you have a "talk-about piece" to set on your display shelf.   :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 28, 2017, 01:10:55 PM
Nice find, Fred! Now you have a "talk-about piece" to set on your display shelf.   :)

Unfortunately, I am not a collector, Tommy --

Keep a few sets of reels like the Senators, and personal use reels -- but better to move these along to others.

They will make nice lamps.

I just love the history and the crafting of the earlier reels.

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 28, 2017, 07:48:03 PM
Since you brought up Ocean City, Fred, here's cute little reel, the Ocean City 350 Spinalong, patented by Edward Small in 1953.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_28_08_17_8_30_52_213961334.jpeg)

The pickup finger flips out by centrifugal force to grab the line to reel it in. Manually flip the finger up and grab the line with your index finger to cast. The burgundy colored reel on the right has an anti-reverse and cream colored one on the left doesn't.  Odd and interesting looking little reel, for sure.  8)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_28_08_17_8_30_47_21396342.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_28_08_17_8_30_51_213981467.jpeg)  


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 28, 2017, 08:37:08 PM
I only have one of those old 350 OC, Tommy -- an ivory one like yours -- no boxes though.

Nice pair!

Question:  why is the old South Bend punch button 23 called a Spin Cost -- rather than a Spin Cast?

Best,

 
Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Bryan Young on August 29, 2017, 07:09:36 AM
I would love to see Fred create a fishing reel museum.  He has some very interesting historic reels in pristine condition.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 29, 2017, 07:10:22 AM
Question:  why is the old South Bend punch button 23 called a Spin Cost -- rather than a Spin Cast?

Best,

Fred

It isn't, Fred. You may want to have your bifocal prescription checked.   ;)

Seriously, though, checkout the "a" a little closer. It has a little up dart at the top right and a similar little down jog at the bottom right.  ;D

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_29_08_17_8_08_27_215571577.jpeg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 29, 2017, 08:13:21 AM
Weighing in at a mere 5.50 oz, here's one of, and possibly my favorite, old spinning reels from the mid 1950s. The Johnson Sure-spin 640, made by the Louis Johnson Co of Highland Park (Chicago), IL and Johnson Silver Minnow fame. To me, the most interesting thing about this reel, other than its light weight and no bail, is that the spool does not oscillate. The manual line pickup is attached to a bar that oscillates in and out as the spool spins in a fixed position. One of the darnedest designs I've run across and it sure gets a lot of looks and conversation. It's really a quiet running reel but I'm sure that's due to the nylon main gear.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_29_08_17_8_48_03_215582262.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_29_08_17_8_48_04_215591581.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_29_08_17_8_48_06_215602154.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_29_08_17_8_48_08_215611042.jpeg)

   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 29, 2017, 10:07:42 AM
You were right, Tommy --

I adjusted my reading glasses by cleaning off the grease!

I have maybe a half dozen old Johnson Sure Spins -- but nothing like your version -- unless I find one someday out in the storage -- did find another old JC Higgins 500 out there yesterday -- in black instead of mint green.

But back to the Johnson's -- the Sure Spin's I have weigh in at 12 oz.!!  

Must have lead gears.

In George Thommen's "Complete Guide to Spinning Tackle" -- the ones I have are pictured -- and this book was a second printing dated July of 1954.

Thanks for posting this weird old Johnson --

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: whalebreath on August 29, 2017, 04:49:33 PM
Just spotted a Langley Spinator on the local Craigslist mixed in with a bunch of garbage grade 'tackle'.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: bhale1 on August 29, 2017, 07:43:58 PM
Tommy and Fred,
Your knowledge and love for these old spinners is simply amazing! What a great resource for everyone who likes to follow these posts... Thank you both!!  Very fun and informative!
Brett


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 30, 2017, 05:38:22 AM
Thanks! It's fun sharing old reel photos and history with others!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 30, 2017, 07:06:16 AM
Here is an old Bronson Savage 910 -- mostly metal, small, but heavy at 7 oz.

Late 50's.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on August 30, 2017, 01:47:16 PM
Thanks, Tommy, on the Zebco 1970 & other reels you have posted on.

Fred, too, thanks for your efforts.

Here's a little reel that is not particularly memorable, as far as I know, or technologically great either; in fact, it's kinda ordinary & sorta cheap looking.  But, check out that name.  "New Norman FR-53".  Where did that come from?  Sounds like the marketing budget was tight or non-existent.  Reel is Marked "Made in Japan."  Metal body, rotor and gears; plastic spool & knob and plastic body cover, held on by one screw on the non-handle side of the reel.  The anti-reverse is positively DAM Quickesque, with a little lever knob hear the handle that "clicks" up and down when it's on, just like my DAM Quick 220; it appears to act on the back side of the main gear.  The drag on the front of the spool has a metal cupped washer (for a spring?) and a 2d keyed metal washer that rides on the plastic of the spool; under the spool, there is a tiny red, fiber washer on top of the drag clicker gear, that presses against the back of the spool.  No true line guide, other than the bail is bent with a little valley that serves as a guide (I've seen this on other reels). Bail trip is external via a protuberance on the reel leg.  Not sure I'd want anything bigger than your average crappie or sunnie on the end of the line with this one.

But, that name?  Who was Norman(n)?  Was there an "Old" Normann?  Was there an FR-1, or FR-2 or FR-52?  Not your typical "outdoorsy" or "fish fightingest" name.  The name is a label on the body & maybe there were other, identical reels named "New Alfred" or "New Sylvester" or....--as easy as pasting on a different label. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 30, 2017, 02:57:17 PM
Clean old reel, HH --

Reminds me of a lot of reels -- Quick, Roddy, Shakes, Zebco, etc..

Appears to be mid 60's, as a guess.

In this era, Japan was copying the features of many reels -- and coming up with weird hybrids.

The names would be whatever they thought might sell in their target market.

You might see two or three nearly identical reels -- with different stick on labels.

Thanks for sharing!

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on August 30, 2017, 08:10:01 PM
Thanks, Tommy, on the Zebco 1970 & other reels you have posted on.

Fred, too, thanks for your efforts.

Here's a little reel that is not particularly memorable, as far as I know, or technologically great either; in fact, it's kinda ordinary & sorta cheap looking.  But, check out that name.  "New Norman FR-53".  Where did that come from?  Sounds like the marketing budget was tight or non-existent.  Reel is Marked "Made in Japan."  Metal body, rotor and gears; plastic spool & knob and plastic body cover, held on by one screw on the non-handle side of the reel.  The anti-reverse is positively DAM Quickesque, with a little lever knob hear the handle that "clicks" up and down when it's on, just like my DAM Quick 220; it appears to act on the back side of the main gear.  The drag on the front of the spool has a metal cupped washer (for a spring?) and a 2d keyed metal washer that rides on the plastic of the spool; under the spool, there is a tiny red, fiber washer on top of the drag clicker gear, that presses against the back of the spool.  No true line guide, other than the bail is bent with a little valley that serves as a guide (I've seen this on other reels). Bail trip is external via a protuberance on the reel leg.  Not sure I'd want anything bigger than your average crappie or sunnie on the end of the line with this one.

But, that name?  Who was Norman(n)?  Was there an "Old" Normann?  Was there an FR-1, or FR-2 or FR-52?  Not your typical "outdoorsy" or "fish fightingest" name.  The name is a label on the body & maybe there were other, identical reels named "New Alfred" or "New Sylvester" or....--as easy as pasting on a different label.  

They were made in the early '60s, possibly by Daiwa. Normann also had a light size external trip by Daiwa called Deluxe, a "25" (UL) and Valor FR-29 (UL). Like Fred said, there were a lot of reels coming out of Japan in the '60s and they would put any name the importer wanted on them. Some were decent quality and many weren't. A lot of those reels were duplicates, just with a different sticker or name. It's tough keeping track of all those different names & models.  ::)    


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 31, 2017, 07:42:07 AM
Introduced in 1953, the Waltco Ny-O-Lite fishing reel was a unique promotional item -- although it was also fully capable and functional.

Nylon was invented by DuPont in the mid 30's -- came into widespread use during WWII for military and gear applications.

After the war, Dupont wanted to introduce the possible uses of nylon into every conceivable product line possible.  They contacted a little company called Waltco -- and this reel was born.

All nylon parts with the exception of 14 or 15 screws, main shaft, bail, copper drag disc backer, and a couple of springs.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Bill B (Tarfu) on August 31, 2017, 02:17:01 PM
My addition to this post would be a Bache Brown Spinster, made by the Airex Division of the Lionel Corporation....yes the company that made the model trains.  It comes with a cast aluminum frame and hard rubber (?) side plate, alum spool and a half bale.  Unfortunately this one is doomed to sit on the shelf as there are missing parts and a broken ar dog post inside.  Either way a fun reel to look at and handle....Bill
(http://i.imgur.com/2a6qHYb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/bRbb8fX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mnAy8V4.jpg)

Has kind of a 50/50 bar look from the side  :D
(http://i.imgur.com/GppsJqF.jpg) 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 31, 2017, 03:10:26 PM
Nice reel there, Bill --

I think that Bache Brown may ve late 40's, or early 50's.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Maxed Out on August 31, 2017, 07:42:15 PM

 Found this one hanging around in my tackle room. 100% functional


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Maxed Out on August 31, 2017, 07:45:44 PM
.....and it goes from lefty to direct drive to righty all with one little lever. This little reel is all metal with a cast one piece main body


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Shark Hunter on August 31, 2017, 08:47:45 PM
When I was just learning to fish a young man, This was always the reel my Uncles would hand to me.
The Johnson Century. Then a 202 and 33, then stepped up to a Cardinal.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on August 31, 2017, 09:33:44 PM
That is an old 100A, Ted --

The lettering appears to be a different style from the ones I have.

Thanks for posting --

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 01, 2017, 06:02:35 AM
Beautiful Century--classic.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 01, 2017, 09:25:54 AM
If any reel deserves to be restored -- it is this little guy...

Small, grey, extremely well engineered, feels good in your hand, operates well after nearly 70 years --

Metal, solid and compact.

A Martin Precision 27 spinning reel -- out of Mohawk, NY.

Just minding its own business at the bottom of a crate of old reels.

Martin has been around as a fishing tackle company since about 1884.  Known for fly reels, automatic fly reels, and other quality products.  The company has gone through a few ownership changes.  

But like many manufacturers in the early 50's -- when it came time to produce a spinning reel to keep up with the competition -- they cut no corners -- just built it as well as they could.

As I examine this old soldier -- I notice that the upward angle of the reel compared to the mounting foot -- is about 5 degrees -- just enough of a subtle difference to insure the line travels as friction free as possible to the first stripper rod guide.

I am impressed by seemingly small engineering adjustments that some might not notice -- and that most manufacturers just ignore -- if they ever even realized they could make a difference.  Particularly in their haste to produce a spinning reel to compete with other brands.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: whalebreath on September 01, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Found this one hanging around in my tackle room. 100% functional
Started out with a Crown Planet Junior but soon upgraded to a Johnson Century caught many a Pike, Walleye & Smallmouth with it too actually think I owned two at one time before upgrading to a Shakespeare spinning reel.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on September 01, 2017, 11:08:56 AM
How come?... Relative to the Mohawk Martin and others such as the Z. Cardinals, etc., how come more spinner designers don't use the worm-pinion ossilation system. It seems superior in simplicity and strength.
Gfish


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 01, 2017, 07:44:41 PM
How come?... Relative to the Mohawk Martin and others such as the Z. Cardinals, etc., how come more spinner designers don't use the worm-pinion ossilation system. It seems superior in simplicity and strength.
Gfish

Because it is more expensive to produce. Materials are more expensive and tooling/machinery has to be much more precise, which is also more expensive. If you pay close attention to some reels of 10 to 15 years ago they have a worm gear but the gears are quite abbreviated. Some of those worm gear pinions are only 1/2" long and their teeth are quite coarse. They still call them worm drives, though, but they're clearly not as tight or smooth as the quality reels.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 04, 2017, 12:53:51 PM
For our left-handed friends....

We see lots of Mitchell 300s, and occasionally, a 301, 300A, 350, 400 or even a 300C.  But, while not rare, you don't see a 301C nearly as much.  They were "improved" over the 301s by having, mainly, a roller line guide and 2 roller bearings inside, one on the rotor shaft & one on the main gear handle shaft.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 04, 2017, 02:43:51 PM
That is a nice old Mitchell, Frank --

According to my records, only a little over 30,000 of those manufactured worldwide between 1969 to 1985.

I have a few 300C, and a few 301 -- but no 301C -- very nice...

Compared to the 20,000,000 in the 300 styles -- that is a pretty low number.  The bearings are nice to have in these reels.

Here is an old guy -- this was the predecessor to the egg shaped body of the 300.

It is an old CAP, round body with a half bail, knurled aluminum crank knob, and a pillar spool.  It does not say Mitchell on it -- so it is before the little round body 304.  There are many variations of the old round bodies --  but this is one of the earlier versions.

This reel may be between 65-70 years old?

No serial number -- just a fancy "7" stamped on the foot.

C.A.P stands for Carpano and Pons -- one of the earlier companies before Mitchell.

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 11, 2017, 09:06:54 PM
Here's an interesting little reel from 1948 by Lou Meyer, Co of Kenosha, WI. It's called the Flo-Line and was advertised as two reels in one, a bait caster and a spinning reel.  ???  The line spool is about twice as long as a standard sewing thread spool and about one and a half times the diameter. Some people call it "The Pencil Sharpener".  :D

Mount the reel on a casting rod with the spool in line with the rod and cast. The line uncoils like an open face spinning reel.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_11_09_17_9_03_49_218221448.jpeg)

Flip the lever on the foot at the bottom of the stem to spin the reel 90 degrees and crank in the line like a bait caster. 

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_11_09_17_9_03_48_21822335.jpeg)

The friction washer type drag is adjusted by turning the knurled knob on the crank handle. The small knurled knob on the side of the body is an adjustable click. The more you turn it the more tension and louder the click. If line twist becomes an issue you just pop the spool off the front and flip it around and the line will come off in the opposite direction. The small lever at the bottom on the side of the body reverses the rotation of the spool in that instance.

Unique and neat little reel from the early US spin fishing era. As much as I like it I doubt very much that I could have ever gotten proficient with the crazy thing.  ::)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on September 12, 2017, 02:18:50 AM
Interesting reel Tom. I found one a couple of years back, brand new with box and extra spool. Of course I had to have it :).
Once received, I was surprised to see how little it actually is.

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 12, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
Look what comes in the mail yesterday -- along with (3) jars of freshly canned Albacore -- regular, smoked with a piece of Salmon, and Jalapeño style.

Thanks, Ted!

Best Always,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 12, 2017, 12:10:33 PM
Here is a little 3500 all metal skirted spinner -- similar to Daiwa or Ryobi.

My guess is late 70's.

Kmart!!!

Few folks outside of those in our age group know that at one time -- Kmart was the single largest retailer of sporting equipment in the world.

Fishing tackle, firearms, camping gear, and much more.

A few of the reels offered were trade reels that were Kmart branded -- but obviously came from Daiwa, Ryobi, and others.

Kmart handled DAM Quick, Mitchell, Penn, Shakespeare, Shimano, Fenwick, Wright-McGill, and many other quality brands that were not rebadged with the Kmart name.

This little reel is impressive -- smooth, solid, probably one main bearing -- works perfect and will catch fish this afternoon if spooled up.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: newfuturevintage on September 12, 2017, 01:09:40 PM
Nice!

Looks nearly identical, down to the finger-masher/bail trip, to the Daiwa 1500c reel I've got, as well as the 7000c that's my go-to for kayak fishing in salt water...because 1. it works well, and 2. I don't care if it sinks to the bottom :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 12, 2017, 02:06:27 PM
I gotta say I'm impressed with Tommy's Flo-Line and Fred's 3500 K-Mart.  All links in the chain of history of spinning gear.

When I was entering adulthood, K-Mart was what WalMart has become today.  I bet if I hunt around, I can find some tackle still in the K-Mart packaging in my basement.

In Phoenix, one of the places I grew up, they had two stores that were my "go-to" sporting goods places (besides K-Mart), those being Yates and Yellow Front.  Yates was an old military surplus store that branched out into sporting goods; Yellow Front was similar, but more sporting goods, especially fishing, right from the get-go.  YF sold "Bud Adams" branded tackle; not sure who Bud was, but he went on a lot of fishing trips with me.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 12, 2017, 02:31:17 PM
I've often wondered why they would compromise the weight of those style reels with that stupid looking stem and external bail trip configuration. Supposedly the main intention at the time was to reduce net weight and that bail trip set scenario sure doesn't accomplish that objective.  ::)

Few people realize that in 1970 Shakespeare decided to cheapen their spinning reel product line and give KMart exclusive sales rights. The last version of the 2052, 2062, 2081A & 2091A were sold only through KMart through 1977. Towards that end Shakespeare added the President II 2800 series and Bicentennial models. They didn't sell very well, prices were reduced and stock was dumped. It marked the end of that line of USA made spinning reels. The next model, President II 2900 series, was made in Japan.  :(  


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 12, 2017, 06:01:08 PM
I wonder if, on those external bail trip reels, part of the idea was to eliminate some small, moving parts, including a spring that could break.  Might be a little cheaper to assemble, too, by eliminating the need for putting an internal bail trip mechanism together.

Hard to know, I suppose, what Shakespeare might have been thinking 45+ yrs. ago when it made their deal with K-Mart/Kresge.  Thinking back, K-Mart would have been maybe the biggest storefront retailer then, but Sears & Monty Wards were going great guns then too, and not only with catalog sales.  Sears sold everything & had a good sporting goods retail presence as I recall.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 12, 2017, 07:36:15 PM
That was at a time when there was a big Asian competition push and cutting price meant the difference between sales or no sales. The '70s & early '80s were really tough on a lot of the quality reel makers all over the world.  :(


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 13, 2017, 06:20:00 PM
Yeah, Tommy, I don't doubt for minute what you say about the cutthroat competition in the time frame you describe.

Do you know: when did Shaky buy out Pflueger, and was the Pflueger line included in the exclusive right-to-sell deal w/ KameApart?  Just thinking; maybe Shakespeare was willing to let their name-branded reels go with the right-to-sell deal, while they kept the Pflueger line (which, as you know, after the buyout, contained many reels virtually identical to the Shakies) to sell outside the scope of that deal.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 13, 2017, 09:08:14 PM
Shakespeare bought Pflueger in '66, but part of the agreement was that Pflueger would retain it's name and headquarters until '69. As far as the spinning reel aspect of the buyout, Pflueger came out with a Supreme line of spinning reel that were exactly the same as Shakespeare's 2052, 2062 & 2081, The Supreme numbers  were 550, 551 & 600, respectively. Same reels but they were priced higher than the comparable Shakespeare models. The Supreme spinning reel line only lasted a couple of years. Pflueger also marketed a Medalist Auto fly reel that was the same thing as the Shakespeare verticle Tru Art. In '69 Pflueger became a "Division of Shakespeare" and their reel manufacturing was moved from Akron, Ohio to Fayettteville, Arkansas, and in '70 Shakespeare's headquarters was moved from Kalamazoo, MI to Columbia, SC. At the same time Shakespeare's reel manufacturing became affiliated with Omori Mfg. Co of Japan, thus the beginning of Shakespeare and Pflueger reels being made in Japan. I'm not aware of Pflueger Supremes being sold through KMart as they were promoted as a higher end spinning reel, even though they were the same as the comparable Shakespeare models. Remember, though, the exclusive Shakespeare/KMart deal came a little later in 1970. I'm sure Japanese made Pfluegers were probably sold through KMart.

That was all separate, and post, Noris Shakespeare Japan & England. Noris Shakespeare is a totally different story and animal.        


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 14, 2017, 10:38:27 AM
OK, few honest fisherman (obvious oxymoron) will admit to ever using a cheap Zebco reel...

I get that --

However, you have to hand it to a company that started here in the US, after the War -- and has sold more reels worldwide than any other manufacturer in history, kept their price point low -- and has introduced more young people and kids to angling than any other tackle company, ever...

Here is a neat little Zebco XR11 spinning reel.

Simple, good paint, decent gears, metal body, plastic sideplate, minimum of things to go wrong.

Still works perfectly.

During the War, Zebco in Oklahoma, made very capable parts for the military effort that had to do with bombs.

After the war, they switched to peacetime production of fishing reels -- hence the name ZEBCO (Zero Hour Bomb Company).

Here is a page from the '77 Zebco catalog --

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Shark Hunter on September 14, 2017, 12:26:50 PM
I will admit to it Fred. ;)
I never knew Zebco stood for Zero Hour Bomb Company.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on September 14, 2017, 12:59:05 PM
   I'm a big Zebco fan...collect some...use some...I have a Bill Dance Gold 733 I use for wacky rigs on every bass trip. Here's a few personal favorites. The first pic is a little kid's 76. My first reel was just like this one. The second pic is a beast of a fishin' reel most folks have no clue of. That 733 Hawg was tough...an excellent reel. 8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 16, 2017, 06:36:28 PM
Thanks, Tommy, for the Shakespeare/Pflueger info.  Pure has both now & still, I think, promotes Pflueger as a "premium" reel.

When I posted about "Bud Adams" fishing tackle earlier, it got me to thinking who he was.  I'm a little disappointed.  I ran across some info posted by someone who had worked for Yellow Front for many years & he seems to recall there was no "Bud Adams", it was just a name someone, probably in marketing, came up with because it sounded American & a "good" name for a fisherman.  The pictures of "him" show an old guy in a long-sleeved shirt, wearing a Stetson-type hat that might of come from the '40s.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 16, 2017, 06:38:39 PM
Me too-- a modest Zebco fan.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Ron Jones on September 17, 2017, 11:34:50 AM
Who new ZeBCo was an achronym?
Way cool, thanks guys.
Ron


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Lunker Larry on September 19, 2017, 04:46:44 AM
ZEBCO..way cool..who knew

I've had a Forester reel since the early 70s that I got I believe at Kmart. It has a lot of miles on it and I now use it for ice fishing. Not in the vintage class you guys live in but I can't find anything to alieve my curiosity about its origin.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 19, 2017, 09:32:12 AM
ZEBCO..way cool..who knew

I've had a Forester reel since the early 70s that I got I believe at Kmart. It has a lot of miles on it and I now use it for ice fishing. Not in the vintage class you guys live in but I can't find anything to alieve my curiosity about its origin.


From the early '70s and sold mainly in Canada. It was more than likely made by Daiwa given the raised "BALL BEARING" molded as part of the body. Daiwa put that on a lot of the reels they manufactured. The bail plate also looks Daiwa-ish from that time frame.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 19, 2017, 12:28:28 PM
Hey, boys & girls, if you want to see a weird and historical reel with a full explanation about it, look at the post about "Older Abu Garcia Info Needed."  Thanks again, Tommy!

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Lunker Larry on September 19, 2017, 12:43:55 PM
Thanks Tom. Much appreciated.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
Here is few I found in an old Budweiser beer box. They haven't been opened since I moved to Gulf Breeze 18 years ago.



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 11:44:08 AM
More



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 11:49:05 AM
More


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 11:58:37 AM
I still have some old Mitchell reels from the 304 up even though I sold most of my collection. A few old green Penn reels starting at the 716 Ultralight. Other old Japan and French reels up on the shelf where I can't reach them.

This last one is the Pflueger Pelican with a rear drag. Pretty common reel.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 24, 2017, 12:19:24 PM
You've got some cool old reels, Keith! I don't know how anyone was ever able to cast with those Ashaway or Otco Slip or Surf Casters!  ::)

The "Pelican" and an "Otco Slip Caster" were two of my first flea market finds expanding my collection. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 12:40:24 PM
Thanks Tommy,

At one time when I quit reel repair I sold all of my collection. $3,000.00 worth to one person and some others on eBay.

I had a collection of all the early Mitchell reels most NIB. I had some nice Mitchell tackle box reels. A Mitchell tackle box with lures, line, bobbers, hooks, sinkers, and the reel with a spare spool. 2 of the tackle box reels were the 440.

Also a collection of the green Penn reels. A 716 NIB sold for $189.00 on eBay years ago.

I now wish I had everything back!!

I did put some in a wrapped box for my grandson and it says "do not open until you are 21".


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 24, 2017, 12:46:20 PM
This is the old box showing the date that I last saw them.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 24, 2017, 03:42:42 PM
Very nice, Keith --

Have all of the reels you show in the pics -- except the last one in the last (2) photos.

What is that one?  Seems interesting -- maybe French?

I have one Ashaway slip caster just like yours --  never could figure out how to use it.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 24, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
That Pelican hasta rank near the top for weirdness, as far as looks.  Kinda "scientific" looking, with all the buttons, bulges, etc.  Reminds me of the old Argus C3 camera, which was pretty average as a picture taker, but which sold like hotcakes because it looked like what people thought a camera should look like.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 24, 2017, 06:20:03 PM
Very nice, Keith --

Have all of the reels you show in the pics -- except the last one in the last (2) photos.

What is that one?  Seems interesting -- mayve French?

I have one Ashaway slip caster just like yours --  ever could figure out how to use it.

Best,

Fred

It's a RU, made in France, from the mid-late '50s & on through the '60s. Tough to tell from the photos exactly which model since the decals are missing. Most had sticker type decals that wore off easily. Looks to me like a RU Mer Super or a RU Pacific but there were a couple of others like the Star & Sport that looked similar. Most of the earlier ones had a rough, almost knurled type, band or ribbon around the rotor cup.. That reel is in nice condition, too bad the decal is missing.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on September 25, 2017, 02:32:44 AM
The slip cast sits on top of the rod like a spincast reel.  You hold the lever down like the button on a spincast.  I've never seen one but there's a video on You Tube.  Do you know if Ashaway manufactured the Slip Cast or was it a trade reel? That was the only reel they ever sold, right?  I sort of have a thing about Ashaway lines.

Keith, they're now asking almost twice that for a green 716 NIB .... not to rub salt in a wound or anything.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on September 25, 2017, 05:54:01 AM
Some of the reels i sold still show up on my sold items at eBay. No pictures though. I still have a bunch of the old tackle magazines from back then. They are cool.

There are Ru Mer and and others in that box and some more on the shelf. Just old reels that tag along with me.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 25, 2017, 09:08:27 AM
Steve,

Ashaway never manufactured any reels. They actually set up a separate corporation called Ashaway, Inc. of Westerly, RI for reel distribution and contracted with Ohio Tool Company, OTCO, to manufacture the reels. There were two models, the Slip-Cast Reel for fresh water and Surf Slip-Caster for salt water. The production contract allowed OTCO to also market the reels under the OTCO name. Production started in late '47 & hit the market in '48. The big sales pitch was that they could be used on your standard bait cast rod. OTCO had financial problems in the early '50s and a similar reel was marketed by Pyramid Manufacturing of Cleveland, Ohio in the mid '50s. It appears Pyramid took over OTCO and their manufacturing but the reel quickly lost favor and went out of production.       


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Tightlines667 on September 25, 2017, 10:39:14 AM
Steve,

Ashaway never manufactured any reels. They actually set up a separate corporation called Ashaway, Inc. of Westerly, RI for reel distribution and contracted with Ohio Tool Company, OTCO, to manufacture the reels. There were two models, the Slip-Cast Reel for fresh water and Surf Slip-Caster for salt water. The production contract allowed OTCO to also market the reels under the OTCO name. Production started in late '47 & hit the market in '48. The big sales pitch was that they could be used on your standard bait cast rod. OTCO had financial problems in the early '50s and a similar reel was marketed by Pyramid Manufacturing of Cleveland, Ohio in the mid '50s. It appears Pyramid took over OTCO and their manufacturing but the reel quickly lost favor and went out of production.       

Interesting.  I had never heard of Pyramid. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 30, 2017, 01:27:19 PM
Here is a nice old kit -- that was a gift from Keith.

Martin Bretton 804SR with a matched pack rod, case, instructions, etc..

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 30, 2017, 06:53:38 PM
That M. Bretton is a good-looking spinning reel.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on October 01, 2017, 10:55:40 AM
how do 2-speed spinners work -- is it 2 main gears?  somewhere, I have an old (60's/70's?) Japanese one which is the only 2-speed I ever had in my hands: in low-gear the spool is fixed/stationary & in high-gear, it rotates in the opposite direction to the rotor -- is that the norm for 2-speed spinners, or unusual?  ...otherwise, it's not really photo-worthy, IMO


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on December 20, 2017, 08:24:11 PM
In some previous posts under this topic:

1) Johnson Century with the "dial" drag.
2) Tommy's "Punch Button" reels.
3) The thought that a spincaster reel could be used under the rod like a spinning reel.

The Century was designed not only as a reel with right or left hand retrieve, but one that could be used under the rod as a spinning reel would.  That's why the A/R has a right and a left position.  But, the spool could be turned around so the line would peel off either clockwise or counterclockwise. Result: you could switch between regular spincast use above the reel and into below-the-reel mode without having to have a second spool or rewind your line.  You could always reel in the usual way without having to reel backwards.  Some of the spools were, I think, even marked "Front" and "Back" or something similar.  The bigger "Citation" model was similar.

Before the "Punch Button" reels, there were several models of under the rod closed face spinning (spincast?) reels that didn't have any kind of casting button (or visible bail) whatsoever, whether a punch button, typical spincast casting button or otherwise.  Some had the short reel leg like a typical spincaster, and some had a longer leg more like a spinning reel.  To cast, you caught the line in front of the reel with your forefinger (like you would with a spinning reel), then turned the crank handle back a tad to release the line for casting.  After casting, the angler just started reeling in the usual way & the line came in. With the short leg type of reel, you had to hold the rod completely by the foregrip ('cause the leg was too short to get your fingers around it).  Some of these reels even had an oscillation feature.  These types of reels also spawned the trigger-type under rod spincasters/spinners of later yore.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 07, 2018, 10:51:27 PM
Here's one of the more interesting spinning reels I've come across over the years. The Feurer Brothers FB202 Flip Reel.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/17004_07_01_18_9_46_01_229961637.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/17004_07_01_18_9_46_02_22998723.jpeg)

Roger & Walther Feurer were Swiss watch part manufacturers. In 1962/63 the Feurer brothers purchased the Airex Reel Division, which was originally started by Bache H Brown, of the Lionel Train Co. Most of their reels were made in the US in White Plains, NY but a couple of models were made in Japan. The FB202 Flip Reel was made in Japan and is a large saltwater size reel. Some of the unique features about this reel is that you can crank the handle forward, or in reverse, and the rotor continues spinning in the line winding direction. It has an integral anti-reverse mechanism so that the spool can never turn backwards. They claimed it won't loose loop or backlash. Loosen the lever on the heel of the reel and the entire body rotates (down and around) 180 degrees to become a left handed (right hand crank) reel. There's a small detent tension screw in the front behind the rotor for correct positioning and the rear heel lever locks the body into place. The rotor spins in the same direction while cranking right handed, too, no matter whether you're turning forwards or backwards. It also has two line guide/rollers to assist in optimum and correct line lay.

Here's a look at the inside gearing. It has two anti-reverse mechanisms, one at the front and one at the rear. The A/R dogs lock into the small gears on the main shaft tube. There's also a a nylon spacer/washer under the oscillation gear, and they used an idler gear to keep the front and oscillation gears turning in the same direction.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_07_01_18_9_47_36_23004738.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_07_01_18_9_46_57_230031729.jpeg)

Turn the lever at the rear of the reel to rotate the body.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/17004_07_01_18_9_46_05_23000451.jpeg)

Rotate the body and it's now right hand crank. The slide button next to the handle says "Stopper" but it's purpose is to activate a light clicker. The rotor free spins in the forward motion when you stop cranking the handle and pushing that button restricts the free spin. You can also see the detent tension screw from that angle. Turn the crank handle forwards or backwards and the line will fill the spool.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_07_01_18_9_46_08_23001951.jpeg)

Another photo of the off side. Here you can see the two line guide rollers.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/17004_07_01_18_9_46_04_22999474.jpeg)

Here's a shot next to an old Cardinal 7 for size comparison. It's a pretty big & heavy reel and quite an interesting and unique reel, to say the least.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_07_01_18_9_46_08_230021815.jpeg)


   

         


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on January 08, 2018, 04:58:46 AM
Tom, that is such a cool design, first time I've seen anything as such.
Do you own this reel?

With the exception of the revolving stand, somehow it reminds me a little of the Sears, Roebuck  910, also made in Japan.

Thanks for sharing.

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on January 08, 2018, 05:17:54 AM
   Bravo Tommy...that's a cool one!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 08, 2018, 06:14:00 AM
Thanks for sharing that unique reel, Tommy --

Fascinating.

Never seen one like it.

I'll see if I can pull a couple of weird guys out of the bonepile later today -- but do not have anything as weird as that flip-body.

Cool...

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 08, 2018, 08:27:13 AM
Thanks, guys! It truly is fascinating! They're pretty rare. I've only seen couple over the last 15 years. You can actually rock the crank handle back and forth and the rotor will continue to spin and lay line on the spool correctly.   ???  I don't know how that would work with the pressure of a "fish on" but it works just fine without a fish.  :)

Sal, yes it's mine. It's been wrapped up in one of "the totes" for a couple of years. I finally decided, with the cold last week, to dig it out and clean it up for the display case. Here's a couple more pics of the reassembly process.

Broken down and cleaned parts. The counter balance weight is raw lead and held in with 2 screws. You have to slide the bail trip lever into the slot before inserting the counter balance, otherwise you can't get the lever in. Counter balance comes out first, otherwise you can't get the lever out. It's an interesting tight fit, for sure!  :P

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_01_18_8_47_56_230061926.jpeg)

The main shaft tube and the anti-reverse dogs & gears.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_01_18_8_47_55_230052257.jpeg)

Pinion bearing assembled & rotor cup.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_01_18_8_47_58_2300713.jpeg)

Inside rotor & back of spool.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_01_18_8_49_09_23009321.jpeg)

The "stopper"/click mechanism attached to the side plate.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_01_18_8_48_35_230082343.jpeg)

If you look real close you can see the little springs on the A/R and stopper/clicker dogs. They're the smallest springs I've ever seen on a spinning reel, and they work perfectly, too!  :o They're so tiny I didn't have the guts to remove them.   ;D  I just cleaned them, nervously, in place.  ::) 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: newfuturevintage on January 08, 2018, 10:23:54 AM
That's almost some kind of dark-arts reel there!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Dominick on January 08, 2018, 01:59:31 PM
Wow!  Tommy that is some interesting reel.  thanks for posting.  Dominick


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on January 09, 2018, 12:49:55 AM
Seems like there's some serious creative stuff that used to go on with spinners. Is it just me, or does this level of creative experimentation not exist so much with other kinds of reels.
Gfish


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 09, 2018, 08:55:39 AM
Seems like there's some serious creative stuff that used to go on with spinners. Is it just me, or does this level of creative experimentation not exist so much with other kinds of reels.
Gfish

Seems like the attempts at being different (some worthwhile, most just a flash in the pan) in the spinning reel world of the 50's and 60's -- IMO, boil down to this:

While spinning reels had been around for a long time before they became so popular during the 50's and 60's -- a few things happened.

Marketing teams promoted the ease of fishing with spinning gear.  8 times the water could be covered in the same amount of time it took with a conventional rig.

Anyone could use a spinning rig with just a little practice.

After WWII, there were many trained engineers who had knowledge of manufacturing and fabricating.

There was more disposable income, and recreation was an important part of raising a family during this period.

Every business was looking for the next new mousetrap, appliance, or vacuum cleaner that would catch on and sell millions.  

Plus, no one wanted to be left behind as the popularity of spinners expanded rapidly.

So many large companies, small firms, niche operations, and talented guys in their garages -- all tried to do something just different enough to catch on big time.

At the end of a few years -- the firms that had just gotten into the business to make a quick buck realized that it took more than a neat product to be successful.  It took commitment, marketing, advertisement, constant innovation, contacts, major capital investment to reach the next level, organization, practical vision, and a network of shops and stores willing to sell their inventions to the angling world.

Sort of like watching some of the early attempts at powered flight...

In the end, a few firms that had already been in the angling business -- were all that was left.

Penn, Zebco, Shakespeare, Mitchell, D.A.M., ABU, and a few others.

They knew that at the end of the day -- their model of quality, marketing, proven history, sound business practices, and knowing the market -- would have the best chance of success.

And perhaps a bigger reason -- their committment to their products included parts, service, warranties, and a network of shops authorized and capable of supporting the reels already being used.

That does not mean that there were not some great products (and many duds) that came out of that innovation era of the 50's and 60's -- and it was a fascinating time with all of the new products and ideas available.

Just my observations and opinions.

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 09, 2018, 11:49:38 AM
Quote
it was a fascinating time with all of the new products and ideas available.

That's part of what keeps my interest, and love of old spinning reels. Yes, I enjoy having a nice collection of most full lines of maker's spinning reels but opening up a model that I've never been into before and seeing variations in design & engineering is a real joy!

I just opened a USA made Zebco Omega 940XL from the late '70s/early '80s. Keep in mind Zebco had direct access to ABU Cardinal design in both rear drag styles, fulcrum & straight rear. The 940XL is a rear drag reel but Zebco completely changed the configuration and workings of the drag. They also revamped the anti-reverse mechanism. They kept the slide button on the top of the body but added a long extending arm to activate the A/R dog on the front of the body between the body and rotor. That is a new style but they also went back 20 years and incorporated the circle spring concept that was used on the old Langley and early Zebco spinners.

Those types of things sure help to keep this hobby interesting.       


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 09, 2018, 04:03:58 PM
Just pulled about 15 or 16 old spinners from some of the outer bins, and brought them into the shop to post over the next few weeks.

Nothing special, just neat old spinners with a lot of history.

Here is a vintage Horrocks-Ibbotson Model 1901.

Works perfectly.  Check out the spool clicker inside the rotating head cup -- just a round ball on a wire that interacts with eight ribs on the underside of the spool set 45 degrees apart.

Tiny metal reel weighing 7.4 ounces, reversible crank for lefties or righties.  Nylon main and pinion, brass bushings, steel spool shaft.

Made in the USA, Utica, NY.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: broadway on January 09, 2018, 07:06:41 PM
Really cool reel, Tommy.  You sure have some cool and unique spinners.  Your a braver man than me for jumping in those suckers.  I get lost when I crack a spinning reel, but you guys handle a cleaning like it's nothing.
Thanks for showing us what's out there.  Especially like the way they made it lefty/righty.
Dom


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 11, 2018, 08:54:58 AM
Here is an old Airex Beachcomber Model 1.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 11, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
They don't get much more basic than that, external bail trip & all.  :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 17, 2018, 10:39:12 PM
Today I think I'll talk about an old company that few people associate with spinning reels, Old Pal. Old Pal started as a minnow bucket division of the Animal Trap Company of America in 1956. By the mid '60s Old Pal became a trade name of Woodstream. Woodstream bought Fenwick Rod Co and used Woodstream, Fenwick and Old Pal on their tackle products. Woodstream sold the Fenwick Rod portion to Berkley, which later became Pure Fishing. Pure Fishing was bought by Jarden Corp and is now part of Newell Brands. Wow!

Anyway, in the mid '60s Old Pal decided to get into the spinning reel market. They never manufactured any reels. Their reels were made by Zangi & Coptes of Italy, KP Morritts of England and a Reel-Lectric 1000 (battery operated), the maker of which is unknown yet to this day. The Italian made reels were of high quality. There were 3 models, the Cheetah 500 (light size), Cougar 600 (medium size) and Jaguar 800 (large size). I'll discuss those sometime in the near future as they have an interesting connection between Zangi of Italy and Dam of Germany. The reels made by KP Morritts were lighter sized reel and, compared to the Italian reels, were cheaply made.

The reel for this discussion is Old Pal's ultra light called the Tomcat 25. It was made by KP Morritts & is more or less a pile of junk. I'm surprised this specific reel still functions as it should. Here's what it consists of:

All the parts (not many) cleaned and ready to put back together.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_38_233201522.jpeg)

This is the anti-reverse mechanism. The rocker button and dog are one piece and plastic, soft plastic to boot. The spring is a thin flat piece of metal wedged between the button and body screw post. The button pivots on a post on the side plate. Believe it or not, the whole thing works and it clicks when the A/R is activated.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_39_233211809.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_41_233221290.jpeg)

The pinion is pressed into the rotor cup. The main shaft tube is molded into the body and threaded on the outer end to retain the rotor. The main shaft is about 3" long with a hole at the rear for a pin that goes into the oscillation groove on the gear. The outer end has two flat sides for washers and the spool.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_44_233231268.jpeg)

Install the rotor, slide the main shaft in, drop in the oscillation pin and you're ready for the main gear to be installed. It's a one piece molded pot metal gear with the anti-reverse ratchet gear on one side and the gear teeth and oscillation groove on the other side. Drop it into place making sure the oscillation pin is in the groove.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_49_2332034.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_52_23325112.jpeg)

Now install the side plate & screw it together.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_41_233221290.jpeg)

The bail goes into holes in the rotor cup. There are no bail springs, the long side bail arm slides through two holes that don't line up. That puts a twist on the arm and creates the spring tension. The short side goes into a hole on the other side of the cup. There is a ridge there to hold the bail in place when it's open. 

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_56_233271003.jpeg)

This photo shows the elaborate drag mechanism. The flat metal washer slides all the way down on the main shaft. The red plastic washer is the under spool drag washer and spool click. The little tail rubs against cogs on the outer rim of the spool when the spool rotates with line pay out. If you look closely you can see a nylon washer under the metal washer on the top of the spool. That's the outer main drag. There's no way to get into them, they were evidently molded in place. At least the drag knob is metal.  :o

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_03_55_233262324.jpeg)

That's all there is to putting it together. The bail is external trip, it just smacks against the leg and snaps shut. Also, notice there's no line roller or guide. The line just rides against the bend in the bail wire. I'll bet braid would cut through that thing in no time.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_04_03_233291008.jpeg)

Here's the handle side.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_17_02_18_9_04_00_23328748.jpeg)

It's definitely a good candidate for the shelf, not on a pole.  :D 

     


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on February 18, 2018, 05:17:21 AM
I have a little old Japan-made Jaguar somewhere (60's?; round, "Crack-like" body; similar simple-wire bail) -- any connection, or did they just nab the name?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on February 18, 2018, 06:38:00 AM
Tom, that little reel appears to be in great shape, considering the plastic parts. I'm guessing it wasn't fished much ;D.
Thanks for sharing, good to compare different designs.

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on February 18, 2018, 09:39:41 AM
Today I think I'll talk about an old company that few people associate with spinning reels, Old Pal. Old Pal started as a minnow bucket division of the Animal Trap Company of America in 1956. By the mid '60s Old Pal became a trade name of Woodstream.

     

Info from a Consumer Guide publication says the "Reel-Lectric" had a list price of $110 in the early 1970's.  The Tomcat went for $3.  There was also a Lynx ($10.95) and a Leopard ($12).  The company also marketed 4 spincasters and various types of rods.

I've got an Old Pal tackle box from that era that has been with me on many a fishing trip.  The latch is plastic and I always figured it would bust some day, but it never has (knock on wood).  Some of the plastic trays are not worm-proof (you bass anglers know what I mean), so I've lined the bottom of a couple with cardboard.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 18, 2018, 10:14:23 AM
Today I think I'll talk about an old company that few people associate with spinning reels, Old Pal. Old Pal started as a minnow bucket division of the Animal Trap Company of America in 1956. By the mid '60s Old Pal became a trade name of Woodstream.

     

Info from a Consumer Guide publication says the "Reel-Lectric" had a list price of $110 in the early 1970's.  The Tomcat went for $3.  There was also a Lynx ($10.95) and a Leopard ($12).  The company also marketed 4 spincasters and various types of rods.

I've got an Old Pal tackle box from that era that has been with me on many a fishing trip.  The latch is plastic and I always figured it would bust some day, but it never has (knock on wood).  Some of the plastic trays are not worm-proof (you bass anglers know what I mean), so I've lined the bottom of a couple with cardboard.

Frank

There was also a Reelcat 30 and a Bobcat 35, both KP Morritts made.

Quote
I have a little old Japan-made Jaguar somewhere (60's?; round, "Crack-like" body; similar simple-wire bail) -- any connection, or did they just nab the name?

Phil,
No, there was no connection between your Jaguar and these "Cat" reels by old pal. There was a Jaguar and a Jaguar 25. Both had external bail trips. Both were small. The 25 was considered an UL. They were made in Japan in the late '50s.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on February 18, 2018, 11:08:01 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy link=topic=22628.msg273679#msg273679
Phil,
No, there was no connection between your Jaguar and these "Cat" reels by old pal. There was a Jaguar and a Jaguar 25. Both had external bail trips. Both were small. The 25 was considered an UL. They were made in Japan in the late '50s.  

thanks...  without digging it out, pretty sure I have the 25, near-mint(?), OK box -- any value to it, or just a curio?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 18, 2018, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy link=topic=22628.msg273679#msg273679
Phil,
No, there was no connection between your Jaguar and these "Cat" reels by old pal. There was a Jaguar and a Jaguar 25. Both had external bail trips. Both were small. The 25 was considered an UL. They were made in Japan in the late '50s.  

thanks...  without digging it out, pretty sure I have the 25, near-mint(?), OK box -- any value to it, or just a curio?

$20-25, maybe a little more if you get a couple of guys that collect ULs or old Japanese reels. They aren't rare by any means.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on February 25, 2018, 06:51:23 PM
There was an ad or article in the March, 1969, issue of Field & Stream trumpeting the "big news from Berkley" about their "Instant Line Change" device.  With an adaptor replacing the normal spool on a spinning reel, you could snap in special small spools of store-bought Trilene line and fish without the normal spool.  The store-bought spool became the new reel spool.  To change line, snap out the Trilene spool of one line size and snap in another in a few seconds.

Apparently, there were a half dozen or so different adaptors that would fit various spinning reels.  The back side of the Trilene spools had three small holes that would snap into the adaptor, the whole deal being held to the oscillation shaft of the reel by a special drag adjusting knob that came with the adaptor.  Not so widely stated was the fact that the adaptor had a drag mechanism built into it; seven disks with multiple Teflon drag disks probably made the drag better than the stock setup on many a reel.

Convenience and better drag or no, the device apparently wasn't a huge success.  By the mid-1970s, the adaptor was given free if you bought two spools of Trilene in the nifty little plastic case that came with it.  Not sure when Berkley stopped selling it.  While it saved you having to spool line and the drag upgrade was nice, the spools of Trilene did not contain nearly the same amount of line as many regular reel spools did and perhaps that was not looked on favorably.  You don't see the adaptor kits for sale on the auction site that shall remain unnamed very often, although I have seen them stuck on the front of various reels for sale where the sellers apparently didn't realize they aren't the original reel spool.

If I think about it long enough, I can probably come up with an answer as to how the adaptor worked on Mitchell 300 reels of that era.  As a few of you will recollect, those 300s spool their line in the opposite direction from most/all other reels, and I doubt Berkley was offering line spools wound in the right direction.  The 300 being one of the top selling reels of that time period, that, too, perhaps helped lead to the demise of this gadget.  If I look at one of the spools closer, it may turn out you can just install the Trilene spool backwards into the adaptor.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 26, 2018, 09:22:19 AM
I vaguely remember seeing those back in the day. Never actually touched on though. I think most serious fishermen saw them as a fad or a gimmick and didn't care for the fact that they had a reduced line capacity, plus a lot of them would buy bulk line to save money. F&S adds in '70 showed a Mitchell with the line change kit displayed below. I don't think they went over very well as they were soon gone from market and you sure don't see many around these days.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 27, 2018, 07:35:35 PM
I'm now going to expand a little bit on the quality "Cat Reels" that Old Pal sold. In 1966 Old Pal came out with the Reel-Lectric 1000. It was a large reel that weighed 26.5 oz, mainly as a result of the large body that housed the battery mechanism. They were assembled in the US, although no one knows for sure who manufactured the electronic parts. The reel body was black, the rotor was gray and the spool and drag knob were turquoise. The main shaft, rotor, bail, spool and drag knob are the same as the Dam Quick Finessa 285. In fact, the back of the spool says "Made in West Germany" w/ "285" below it. In '67 they came out with with the Cougar 600. It's a medium size reel. The body and internal parts were made by Zangi in Italy. The body is black but the rotor, shaft, etc., is the same as the Reel-Lectric, all made by Dam Quick. Later models included the Cheetah 500 (light size), Cougar 600 (medium size) and Jaguar 800 (large, salt water size). The later models had an anodized body and blue rotor w/ 3 silver recessed lines and one raised blue line. The main shaft remained the same design throughout all three models. All spools were similar to the original Dam spool but somewhat redesigned, additional drag washer capacity, etc. They no longer had "Made in Germany" molded on them, but instead, "Pat Pend". No one has yet been able to pin down the interesting connection between Old Pal, Zangi and Dam Quick.

Here are some photos and comparisons of the first and later Cougar 600, and also a Jaguar 800. I don't yet have a Cheetah 500 but they are similar only smaller. The earlier gray Cougar 600 is always on the right in the photos.

Here are the parts cleaned and ready to assemble. As you can see, the latter blue version has a few more parts, especially drag parts & washers.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_48_235451564.jpeg)

This is a side-by-side rotor comparison. It is obvious, with the round holes & hole filled counter balance, that the gray rotor is the same as a Finessa.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_48_23541340.jpeg)

The rotors with the bail assemblies ready to install. The gray assembly has a carbaloy line roller and one heavy bail spring. The later blue versions have a SS line roller w/ a brass bushing and bail springs on both sides, but the springs are lighter gauge wire. The gray bail even has the black plastic Dam bail plug. The roller guide connection has been changed on the later blue rotor.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_52_235471713.jpeg)

This is the Jaguar 800 rotor and bail assembly. It, too, has SS line roller, brass bushing and two bail springs. Notice all three have the same bail trip lever design.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_44_235572333.jpeg)

The 600 bails installed.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_51_235462449.jpeg)

Here's a comparison photo of the 600 spools and drag mechanisms. They clearly upgraded the drag mechanism on the later blue version. It has five washers under the spool compared to one under the earlier Finessa spool and seven in the spool recess compared to two in the Finessa recess. The later washers are also much larger in diameter. There is also an added plastic/teflon bushing on the shafts of the later versions.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_54_235481796.jpeg)

This is the 800 spool and drag assembly. The hole in the SS washer fits on a stud so that it remains stationary on the insert. Only the teflon washer slips. Surprisingly, since it's a larger saltwater reel, it has fewer drag washers than the blue 600. 

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_51_235611111.jpeg)

Here are some close ups of the 600 spools showing the writing on the tops, bottoms and similarities in the drag/release insert.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_59_235501578.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_08_58_235491523.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_01_23551275.jpeg)

Notice how the anti-reverse dogs are similar but opposite in configuration on the 600s. The later blue version has a taller rim on the body main gear shaft hole so the bends in the A/R dogs are opposite to be able to contact the ratchet gear.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_06_235532390.jpeg)

A/R dogs installed on the 600s and ready for the worm gear pinion, bearing and rotor installations.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_05_2355213.jpeg)

The 800 with the A/R dog, worm gear pinion & bearing installed.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_46_23558454.jpeg)

The 800 has an interesting bail trip stud. It is built into the plastic housing. It would be my guess that the plastic housing is to help protect the bearing from sand & salt water.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_43_23556532.jpeg)

The 800 ready to install the rotor.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_48_235591674.jpeg)

Rotors installed on the 600s and ready to install the main gears, main shaft and oscillation arm. Notice the bushing/washerss for the arm to main gear sliding connection. The gray reel has a single brass bushing and the blue version has a two piece nylon bushing.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_07_23554919.jpeg)

The 600s ready to install the side plates, handles and spools.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_08_235551993.jpeg)

The 800 ready for the side plates, handle and spool. Notice it also has the two piece nylon bushing on the arm to main gear connection.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_09_49_235601412.jpeg)

Here are all three together. Cougar 600s on the ends and the Jaguar 800 in the center.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_10_31_235631997.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_24_02_18_11_10_31_23562800.jpeg)

These are cool high quality reels with an interesting history that may have more questions than answers. They were fairly expensive reels in their day. That's probably the reason why they aren't seen often. 



 

       


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on February 27, 2018, 08:17:23 PM
Those are pretty cool, Tommy —

There is a lot we do not know about certain reel companies — and DAM is no exception.

Good information.

Thanks!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on February 27, 2018, 08:37:05 PM
Excellent tutorial with interesting information and great pics. I did notice the shape of the housing resembling Zangi's.
Beautiful work Tom, I hope you do find that little guy, I could feel how bad you're looking for it :)

Keep up your excellent work ;).

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 28, 2018, 10:51:54 AM
Thanks, Sal & Fred! Yeah, I'm on the lookout for that Cheetah 500. 600s & 800s come up every now & then, there's actually a couple of each listed right now, but I've only ever seen one or two of 500s over the years & I wasn't focused on the Old Pal stuff back then.

Here's a couple of pages from a 1968 Woodstream Catalog that advertises this group of quality "Cat Reels".


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on February 28, 2018, 07:16:12 PM
Those are pretty cool, Tommy —

There is a lot we do not know about certain reel companies — and DAM is no exception.

Good information.

Thanks!

Best,

Fred

Gets my vote too.  Very interesting & lots of good detail. Thanks, Tommy.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on February 28, 2018, 07:53:31 PM
   That's great stuff Tommy. I love when you guys clue me into long forgotten reels. There are so many of these things I see and go "Yeah, I remember that". I should have been more into collecting then, but girls and motorcycles clouded my mind...hee hee...8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on February 28, 2018, 08:06:33 PM
Woah, cool! We had onea those Old Pal tackle boxes when I's a kid. Never did hear of anya those Old Pal reels though. Especially cool is that-there, fancy, new-fangled, eeelectronic reel.
That's really goin too far though, with the power stuff. I don't even like power door locks ona car.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 02, 2018, 06:39:38 PM
There's a Reelectric for Buy It Now sale on the big auction site for $40 +$9 shipping; probably not working.  With case.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 03, 2018, 07:22:04 PM
The Reel Tech's worst nightmare.......................  ???

Loose Balls! :o







(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_03_03_18_8_08_35_237691932.jpeg)

To be continued.......................................  ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 04, 2018, 03:20:43 AM
Yup!!...Alcedo?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on March 04, 2018, 10:40:53 AM
I stopped and did not go there when I saw there was no cage.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 04, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
Yup!!...Alcedo?

Yes Sir, Erie 2CS, but I've been there before with a couple of Japanese copies:

Spin Mitey, Cargem Mignon 33 copy.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_43_237781654.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_37_23772735.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_40_237771014.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_43_237791003.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_47_23780903.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_48_237811242.jpeg)

Red Ram, Alcedo 2CS copy.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_27_56_237831294.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_27_55_237821488.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_27_58_23784567.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_27_59_237851652.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_28_02_237861758.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_28_04_237871314.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_28_05_237881771.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_28_06_23789304.jpeg)

But above all else  :P, I persevered.  ;D

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_04_03_18_1_26_38_237762240.jpeg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on March 04, 2018, 12:50:15 PM
Some interesting reels, Tommy.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on March 04, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
hey, I think I still have a pink Spin Mitey w/ cracked drag knob, somewhere...
(runs OK; never opened it -- are the gears actually steel?)

also, a new(ish) Columbian (box says 61-A on top & 61-B on side) that's vaguely similar,
but has one of those main-shaft protrusions on the bottom (oil port?)

I've mentioned the boxed Jag 25, before...  

would all 3 get me a well-functioning older Cardinal?
(exact model, size & cosmetics, irrelevant... as long as it's skirted -- hate cups)
you have me convinced to dip my toe in  ;D

yes, I know, I'm digging for the camera charger, while I'm digging for reels/parts


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 04, 2018, 03:32:38 PM
Tommy, the Alcedo was one of the toughest spinner I worked on, but only because I didn't know what I was doing ...and I'm Italian ::) ;D
Did you use a special tool to remove the bearing in the first pic?

Great job as usual...don't loose the balls :)



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 04, 2018, 04:31:48 PM
Phil,

Yes, the Spin Mitey gears are steel. I've never seen or heard of a pink one, though. Has it been repainted? Honestly, both of those two reels are decent quality. I was surprised once I opened them up, serviced them and put them back together.

Maybe, there are a few guys out there that collect Japanese clones. The 61 is the same reel as the old Airex 365 UL. I've also got an old Apollo (similar but bigger) in one of the totes that I haven't had time to go through yet. They all came in a lot of around 10 reels I picked up a few years ago. When you get your camera going get me a couple of photos of it, papers & box.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 04, 2018, 05:17:29 PM
Sal,

No special tool. After removing the main shaft, oscillation arm and main gear, I first removed the A/R dog & spring. Then, I very carefully held the pinion from turning and loosened the nut in the rotor and removed it. I carefully removed the front race on the front bearing keeping close eye on the balls. I have a small screw driver that's magnetized and I took each ball out one at a time and put them in a small jar of lacquer thinner to keep them separate from the other parts. Then I slid the worm gear back a little and removed those balls in the rear bearing the same way & put them in the jar. Once I had all the balls accounted for I slid the pinion back and out. Then, I removed the grooved nuts. They weren't at all difficult to unthread, I turned them with my fingers. The two tiered nut is one nut. It aligns the pinion worm gear and adjusts tension holding both bearing in their correct alignment. The other is the securing nut. It should be easier to put them all back in since the grease will be fresh and will help hold the balls in place. A lot of oil had been added to the races so the balls didn't stay in place very well when I took them apart. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on March 04, 2018, 05:21:42 PM
Mitey is def. used/no extras...  def. original paint-job -- light purplish pink
(faded mauve? ...dunno -- not an interior decorator  ::)  salmon is a fish -- not a color)
if it's steel-on-steel, maybe I should keep it & whittle out a drag knob
good thing I didn't try to open it -- now I know to do so in a deep bin w/ handy magnet -- THANKS!!!

61 is EXC or better w/ papers & beat-up box

also found a boxed Sabre 80 2-speed -- WEIRD!!!
3:1 normal / 6:1 spool rotates opposite direction to rotor
IMASCARED to open that puppy -- esp., tiny cheap side-plate screws

GOTTA GET THE CAMERA GOING


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on March 04, 2018, 06:06:27 PM
P.S. can't forget the 2 connected spools of Royal Bonnyl in a crumbling plastic case


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 04, 2018, 06:56:31 PM
Working with all those loose balls (don't forget a Mitchell 308) would give me loose bowels.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 04, 2018, 07:46:52 PM
Tommy, if the nut on the rotor is really stiff, how would you hold the pinion? I know if you try to use the main gear to help, the gear would be gone. This is why I asked if you had some type of tool to hold that pinion.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Carl L on March 04, 2018, 08:32:19 PM
Try transjel... (automotive transmission assembly lube) to hold small ball bearings in place for assembly !!   Once you hit it with oil or heat, it becomes a lesser consistency that dextron trans fluid.. (I use it all the time)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Tightlines667 on March 04, 2018, 08:45:09 PM
I like it. 

I wasn't aware of these, though I keep an eye on the Alcedos and have been looking for a few to ad at some point.

I enjoy seeing your great tutorials on these, and other quality old classic spinners.

John


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 04, 2018, 08:54:56 PM
Thanks for all the comments & support, guys!

Sal,

I have a very small Craftsman tongue-and-groove (water pump) pliers. It's basically ignition wrench size and one of my most used tools. I use a piece of leather between the pliers & worm gear teeth to keep from marring the gear teeth. I'm really careful and work things back and forth until the nut comes loose. It's not often that I need to put it on gear teeth, I try to avoid that, but on this one it was either the teeth or the threads and I definitely avoid threads at all costs. The nut came loose pretty easy on this one, so I was happy about that.

BTW, no more Loose Balls!   8) They're all back at home in their races, adjusted and rolling smoothly.   ;D  

Phil,

You'll be fine! Just don't take the rotor cup off.  ;) If you do, though, do it inside a bucket with a piece of clear plastic over the top.  ::)  I learned the hard way on that Spin Mitey.  :-[ Somewhere in the nap of the carpet in my reel room, or the vacuum cleaner, there are a couple of Spin Mitey ball bearings. I had to go to Ace and get replacements. While I was there I picked up a few extras in all the smaller sizes for future carelessness. Haven't had to use any since, though.  :P   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 05, 2018, 08:47:14 PM
I threaded the nuts all the way onto the pinion worm gear and slid the rear bearing race on the shaft. It has to be installed from the rear. I held it up with a block of wood, greased the race with Super Lube and installed the balls with my little cheapy magnetized screwdriver. I needed the plastic poker to get the balls to come off the screw driver.  ::)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_10_23792521.jpeg)

I added a couple drops of oil, slid the worm gear forward and put a little wood block against the worm gear to keep it in place so the balls wouldn't fall out.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_09_2379057.jpeg)

I greased the front inner race, installed the balls just like the first bearing. I added a couple of drops of oil, the outer race, teflon and metal washers.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_13_23793992.jpeg)

Next I installed the rotor and adjusted the spanner nuts so that the bearings spin freely without any play. Shown is the small water pump pliers and leather pad I use to hold the worm gear to remove and/or tighten the rotor nut. Also pictured are a couple of nice little micrometer spanner wrenches I picked up on the Bay a couple of years ago for situations just like this and crank handles that have double spanner nuts. They sure came in handy securing those bearing nuts.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_13_23794348.jpeg)

While I didn't need them on this project, I also have the smallest size vise-grips that I ground the ridges off the jaws to prevent marring.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_16_237952269.jpeg)

If the rotor nut wouldn't have come loose easily I would have locked them onto the gear like this to remove the nut.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_18_237962108.jpeg)

There's not a lot of drag stack parts. The spool, coil spring, metal washer and retaining rim/fitting.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_18_237901747.jpeg)

Here the crank handle, bail and all the internals are back in place and everything is working as it should, although it's just like any older reel that has had it's balls and races completely cleaned of all old oil & grease, it makes a little noise, and will until a nice coating sets into, and onto, the metal. I set the anti-reverse and snugged the rotor nut down another quarter of a turn. The ratchet gear holds the main gear, and in turn the worm gear, from turning enough to snug the rotor nut. It's ready for the side plate, spool and drag knob.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_21_23798645.jpeg)

The Alcedo Erie 2CS, along with its little brother, the Micron, are both ready to go fishing!  

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_24_238001010.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_05_03_18_8_39_23_237992358.jpeg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Shark Hunter on March 06, 2018, 10:36:08 PM
Very Nice Tommy.
You do good work. ;)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 07, 2018, 05:32:26 PM
Here is an old Johnson’s Sure-spin —

It is listed in George Thommen’s 1954 edition of “The Complete Guide to Spinning Tackle”.

So it must be a little older than that, 1950 vintage, maybe?

Anyway, not even a bit of plastic anywhere — but a basic low quality reel compared to those of 25 or 30 years later.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2018, 06:01:41 PM
Nice little reel Fred, I have something very similar in green, I believe made in NY.


Beautiful tutorial Tommy, but I must say, while you were holding that pinion with the vise-grip I was biting my finger ;D


Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on March 07, 2018, 06:49:23 PM
Can you tell me anything about this Swiss Whiz, Fred?

At first glance it reminded me very much of my first spinning reel--the old Zebco 707. Gave $2.99 for it at Star Sales in Knoxville, TN.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 07, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
As you can see, Chester — the design is similar on the Zebco 707 to the much earlier Swiss Whiz from around the very early 50’s.

The SW has more metal — the 707’s are mostly all plastic.

Now, Zebco made some really nice high quality early all metal reels during the same time they made these entry level 707’s.  They were identical to the earlier Langley’s, with just color differences.  These were Zebco reels such as the 822, and others of the same model group.  I have maybe a dozen of these.  Some are unused — and they are wonderful, solid reels.  Good action, solid mechanics, sharp and crisp bail return.  And they were not inexpensive when new back in the early 60’s — running $15 to $19 at that time.

The 707 listed for a MSRP of $5.98 in 1965.

Here is a Zebco 707 that was in the bottom of one of the old bins.  It has never been used, and still has the original factory line and clear plastic line keeper on the spool.

Took it apart for pics, still had the original honey grease inside — added a little more grease as well as some TSI321 — took pics, put it back together.  Whole process took 6 minutes including disassembly, pics, grease and oil, and reassembly.  Dead simple little reel that weighs in at 5 ounces.  Good for kids to learn how a spinner works on bluegill, trout, and panfish.  No bail spring, no A/R, no dogs, no springs, 80% plastic.

If anyone wants, I can post some pics of the metal Zebcos and Langleys.

They will still catch respectable fish today.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 07, 2018, 10:32:27 PM
Nice little reel Fred, I have something very similar in green, I believe made in NY.


Beautiful tutorial Tommy, but I must say, while you were holding that pinion with the vise-grip I was biting my finger ;D


Sal

Thanks for the kudos, guys. I cut a couple of corners on the tutorial but figured those were pretty basic steps. I tore it all the way down, as usual, I just didn't photo all the parts and a couple of steps.

Not to worry, Sal. Good solid steel flat on both sides and plenty of flange to grab.  ;D

The Swiss Whiz has always cracked me up. They touted it as being designed by Swiss Craftsmen, the lightest spinning reel on the marked and Made in America. I always laugh when I read that in their advertising. The designers clearly weren't watch makers and my first thought is that they were the aluminum pop can predecessor.  :D They were made by Myco, Inc. in Detroit, MI.

Here's a couple of pages from a 1970 Zebco catalog. They were still selling their basic spinners even though they had been promoting the Cardinals for three years. They also had an 830 Spin Deluxe.

 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 08, 2018, 08:23:34 AM
Here's all seven of those early right hand Zebcos in real time. All were originally Langley models except the 707.

Top row left to right: Spin de luxe 830, Spin Flo 822, Spinlite 850, 707
Bottom row left to right: Spinator 870, Surflite 860, Spinner 777


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on March 08, 2018, 09:04:55 AM
Those metal Zebcos look pretty sturdy. I can't say that for the old Zebco 707.

Thanks for the pics, Fred and Tommy.

I don't remember ever disassembling the 707.  That's the simplest innards l've seen in any type of reel.  What I remember most about that reel is the brake didn't work properly and I lost a big smallmouth that hit my spoon just about 5' from shore. But l caught my fair share of crappie, bream, and carp. Yes, I actually got the 707 for $2.99 wholesale.  Got it with an old cheap $1.99 6-1/2' no name rod that I threw away years ago.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 08, 2018, 09:36:11 AM
Nice little reel Fred, I have something very similar in green, I believe made in NY.


Beautiful tutorial Tommy, but I must say, while you were holding that pinion with the vise-grip I was biting my finger ;D


Sal

Thanks for the kudos, guys. I cut a couple of corners on the tutorial but figured those were pretty basic steps. I tore it all the way down, as usual, I just didn't photo all the parts and a couple of steps.

Not to worry, Sal. Good solid steel flat on both sides and plenty of flange to grab.  ;D

The Swiss Whiz has always cracked me up. They touted it as being designed by Swiss Craftsmen, the lightest spinning reel on the marked and Made in America. I always laugh when I read that in their advertising. The designers clearly weren't watch makers and my first thought is that they were the aluminum pop can predecessor.  :D They were made by Myco, Inc. in Detroit, MI.

Here's a couple of pages from a 1970 Zebco catalog. They were still selling their basic spinners even though they had been promoting the Cardinals for three years. They also had an 830 Spin Deluxe.

 
I wasn't worried Tommy, I know you have it under control, I can just tell ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 08, 2018, 09:58:38 AM
Beautiful tutorial Tommy, but I must say, while you were holding that pinion with the vise-grip I was biting my finger  ;D

You are right, Sal — made me cringe a bit also — but I know that Tom knows what he is about, though.

For me, it is like wood working bench planes — blocks, trim, jointers, jacks, smooth bed, rabbet, etc..

I might have 20, or so...seldom use them except maybe a few times a year because of power jointers, shapers, routers, and router tables.

However, they are always stored on their side, or rested on their side when using them.  Newer woodworkers say that either way is fine — and I believe they are right.  And 99% of the time there is never an issue if you know what you are doing.

I just prefer to eliminate the other 1% as a course of habit.  And that is the way I was taught as a kid when it came to woodworking.

But Tommy has it covered.

Experience lets us take shortcuts and make our tools better.

Best,

Fred




Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 08, 2018, 11:03:12 AM
Oh, believe me, those ground off vice-grips are a very, very, very last resort!  ;) I'm even nervous with the tiny water pump pliers and leather strap, but I've never gouged a gear using that protective leather strap and it grabs into the gear teeth pretty nicely. Those specific Alcedo 2CSs are a booger, as Sal obviously knows. The pinion doesn't have flat sides for the rotor and the rotor hole is round. The only thing that holds the rotor in place is heavy duty nut tightening friction and locking down the A/R doesn't work because it's in the wrong direction. Locking it only helps to tighten it down. Since the race retainer nut threads go all the way back to the gear it makes it even more difficult to hold the pinion to loosen the rotor nut. I'm glad I don't have to work on very many reels designed like that. If did I'd have to figure out how to make some sort of tool to lock the pinion down.
 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 08, 2018, 12:42:16 PM
I've been playing around with a cute little French made Centaure 600 the last couple of days. Centaure reels were made by, when translated to English, "The French Water Pipes Company" of Paris. Their first reel, in 1947, was a fairly large & heavy medium sized reel simply named Centaure. They made various models throughout the '50s and were one of the earlier makers to use skirted spools. The 600 was their smallest reel and sold circa 1960. It's considered light size. It's is a little longer than a Mitchell 304 but weighs about the same. It is a very light neat little reel.  

Here's what she looked like when I opened her up.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_09_36_238422360.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_09_38_23843576.jpeg)

Took her apart, snapped a few photos during the process and cleaned everything up. Here's all the parts ready to reassemble.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_38_238282349.jpeg)

I assembled the bail spring, bail arm, and bail trip mechanism first. The coil spring wraps around the bail arm & is inside the rotor. The crescent metal piece is part of the bail trip mechanism and held in place by the two screws. The square end locks against a ridge on a rolling bail arm fitting, both open and when closed. The square stud trips the mechanism. On this one I'll wait to add the bail until last.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_37_2381791.jpeg)

Here you can see the stud, the ridges that trip the stud on the bearing retainer and the bearing, regreased and ready to put together.  

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_41_238292204.jpeg)

Next, I assembled the spool click parts. It's an interesting design and threads into the bottom of the spool.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_42_238301326.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_44_238311008.jpeg)

Here's the drag mechanism. Not much there. A coil spring, flat washer & drag knob. In the end, when I put it all together, there was some room for additional washers so I added a fiber & bronze washer. That ended up making knob adjustment a little easier.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_48_23833207.jpeg)

The side plate, anti-reverse parts, main gear, oscillation stud and shims.  

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_47_238321365.jpeg)

All put together, ready for installation and set aside.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_49_238341588.jpeg)

Next step is to install the pinion. The rotor hole is threaded to accept the pinion, which slides through the bearing from the rear, and there is also a retention nut.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_52_238171391.jpeg)

They conveniently provided a hole in the pinion tube to hold it while tightening the rotor & nut. That was really nice!

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_52_238361243.jpeg)

Time to install the main shaft, under spool washer & oscillation block.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_57_23817415.jpeg)

Next I installed the main gear/side plate mechanism making sure the oscillation stud was in the slot.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_57_238371176.jpeg)

Time to check the bail for adjustment, install it, add the handle, install the spool and test everything.  

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_05_59_23839649.jpeg)

Done and everything works as it should. A neat little, almost 60 year old, reel.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_06_03_23841152.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_08_03_18_12_06_02_238402462.jpeg)  


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 08, 2018, 12:57:03 PM
The Centaure is a beauty, Tommy.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on March 08, 2018, 03:37:52 PM
Tommy, where were you a few years back ::). The Centaure is another reel that gave me a hard time.
They are nice, but trying to service one for the first time could be really tough.
Nice job as usual, you're bringing them out like fireworks...don't stop ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 08, 2018, 07:47:43 PM
Tommy, where were you a few years back ::). The Centaure is another reel that gave me a hard time.
They are nice, but trying to service one for the first time could be really tough.
Nice job as usual, you're bringing them out like fireworks...don't stop ;D

Thanks! I got the kitchen remodel done so I'm making up for some lost time before it warms up and I have replace a bunch of siding & paint the house.   ::)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 12, 2018, 01:17:52 PM
Tommy, did you have an article about the Flip Reel in a fishing publication not too long ago?

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 12, 2018, 02:54:47 PM
Tommy, did you have an article about the Flip Reel in a fishing publication not too long ago?

Frank

Yep. In Dr. Todd Larson's Fishing For History Magazine. A great individual bringing back a (his) great tackle history magazine!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 12, 2018, 05:47:20 PM
Tommy, did you have an article about the Flip Reel in a fishing publication not too long ago?

Frank

Yep. In Dr. Todd Larson's Fishing For History Magazine. A great individual bringing back a (his) great tackle history magazine!

Way to go--a published author among us!

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 13, 2018, 09:26:53 PM
Here's a cute and interesting little French reel from the 1930s, the Pecos. In 1937 Pecheur Ecossais applied for its patent, which was granted the following year. While the first models were in production the design was taken to Capano and Pons for improvement. Capano and Pons was a machine shop specializing in gear and small component manufacturing. Capano and Pons provided mechanical refinements to multiple reel companies during that time, including La Canne a Peche, AMR & Pecheur Ecossais. La Canne a Peche provided one of the early CAP reel designs. Capano and Pons eventually ended up manufacturing the CAP reels we know today, and those CAP reels eventually transformed into the Garcia Mitchell 304/305 and 314/315.

The Pecos has somewhat of a unique oscillation system. The round plate on the main gear fits inside the ring that is attached to the main shaft. That's what drives the main shaft in and out while the spool rotates, laying line uniformly onto the spool. The threaded bolt with a spring holds the handle, main gear and sideplate in place. The flanged ring is a dust cover that slips over the sideplate and is held in place by friction.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_13_03_18_8_44_14_23919436.jpeg)

The hole in the bottom of the spool fits over the stud on the main shaft click gear. The black metal four pronged spring provides tension adjustment for the drag.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_13_03_18_8_44_15_239232367.jpeg)

It is said that this little Pecos had some design influence on the later CAP and Mitchell round body reels. It weighs in at a whopping 5.57 oz. It's a neat little reel and feels like a feather in your hand. I don't think this reel has ever been put on a rod, which is amazing since it's right at 80 years old.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_13_03_18_8_44_20_239261610.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_13_03_18_8_44_18_239252487.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/23/17004_13_03_18_8_44_17_23924440.jpeg)

 
 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 14, 2018, 04:11:12 PM
Another nice contribution, Tommy.  All the Mitchell 304/314 fans, and other round body reel lovers, will enjoy this.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 14, 2018, 06:11:44 PM
Ocean City manufactured 5 types of reels.

We all know about the conventional salt water reels.

They also made small fresh water baitcasters.

And fly reels.

Plus closed face spincasters.

Here are a couple of open face spinning reels.

Good reels manufactured in the USA in the early 50’s.

They made 300, 310, 320, 350, etc..

Some were more rare than others — here on the left is a little 310 with a fixed roller line pickup — no bail.

Lots of history here — from a company with a good reputation for quality and engineering.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 14, 2018, 06:32:44 PM
Give us a tour of the innards, Fred, so we can see what makes them tick.  :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 15, 2018, 10:01:52 AM
Here are the guts, Tom —

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 15, 2018, 10:36:27 AM
Thanks, Fred. Interesting design & concept. I've never had much interest in the OC spinners & their True Temper siblings so that's the first time I've seen how they were designed.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on March 15, 2018, 01:04:12 PM
They's lookin like they're built pretty tough. Didn't even know OC made spinners...

Thanks Fred & Tommy, et. al., Very interesting stuff.  I hope you got more commin...


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: handi2 on March 15, 2018, 02:57:25 PM
Now thats one ive never had my hands on.

Very nice Fred.

One day I will remember to send you that Penn 714. Or, was it a 716??

Keith


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 15, 2018, 03:23:36 PM
Thanks, Keith —

It was a greenie 714 I need for my personal arsenal.

Dave (jurelometer) sent me a 716.

If you would like these OC’s — I will send them your way.

Let me know!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 16, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Didn't even know OC made spinners...


Don't hear enough about this old company.  Thanks, guys, for the look.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 22, 2018, 02:31:12 PM
Most of us have heard about the more famous French reels — Mitchell, Luxor, etc..

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

Take a look at the engineering of the Savoy 702 in the middle.

Then the Martin/Bretton on the right.

Last, the steer horn bail Centaure on the left.  I still fish one of these as a personal reel occasionally.  They are well balanced, and when fishing with a loose line — no bail is easier to engage and disengage quickly.

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Shark Hunter on March 22, 2018, 04:28:29 PM
I keep meaning to get one of those Centaures.
Just old School Cool. ;)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on March 22, 2018, 05:16:56 PM
the steer horn bail Centaure...  no bail is easier to engage and disengage quickly.

yeah, but no bail is more dangerous:

was playing around w/ a Pacific, but stupid me didn't have it mounted...
just holding the foot loosely, crankin' hard & marveling "how well-made"
when I jammed the horn into the soft spot between my knuckles  :o :'( >:(
Top-5 bloodless fishing injury via stupidity
tied w/ unsnagging braid in shallow water, w/ dowel at chest level
& getting popped between the eyes w/ a 1-oz egg  :o :'( >:(  

what can I say, my Indian name is Runs-With-Scissors    ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 22, 2018, 07:31:50 PM
I've got a couple of Brettons but haven't opened them up yet. That looks like fairly decent inside. I've also got a LH - RH wind Centaure I've yet to explore. It's quite a bit bigger & heavier than the 600 I did a couple of weeks ago.

I'm currently working on 3 Swiss Fix-Reels, a PUM, a half bail & a full bail from the late '40s - '50. They've got a big rotor & short leg and that half bail is a real knuckle buster. OUCH! It is clearly an index finger only in front of the leg.  ::) I'll post some pics when I get them done. Their paint adhesion isn't very good. It's kind of a hammered type finish that flakes off easily, especially after they've soaked in dawn & water for 10 minutes. Haven't had that happen before.  :( 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 28, 2018, 08:33:24 PM
Awhile back I posted a couple of photos of, and discussed, this Louis Johnson Sure-spin 640 from the mid '50s.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_28_03_18_8_38_27_24068410.jpeg)

Fred posted a couple of photos of a full bail Sure-spin 348.

Louis Johnson had a few different model spinning reels in the mid '50s. Here's the workings of a Sure-spin 420. It is similar in construction to the 640 with the nylon main gear, light weight body, etc., except the 420 has a pot metal pinion gear, the spool oscillates and it has a PUM (manual line pickup). It weights about 6oz.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_28_03_18_9_29_37_240721871.jpeg)

Here are both the 420 & 640 together. They're cute little reels and a couple of my favorite talk about pieces.  :)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_28_03_18_8_38_56_240711398.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_28_03_18_8_38_49_24069473.jpeg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on March 28, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
That 640 is about as simple as you can get.  The trouble is, the line is not untwisted as it is retrieved and spooled.  So, twists put in the line on the cast are not being untwisted on the retrieve.  After a few casts the twists will accumulate unless the terminal tackle spins well.

Still neat reels though.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: 1badf350 on March 28, 2018, 11:12:08 PM
Man you guys gotta check out the spinners that Ed Pritchard posted on ORCA. Very cool


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 29, 2018, 12:54:21 PM

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

...


The Martin name is mentioned with Bretton, and I'm thinking it's the same Martin name related to the reel company in New York that is usually linked with fly reels.  However, I've seen Bretton boxes which mention that they are [were] exclusively distributed in the US by Ocean City in Philly.  Guessing OC distributed them in the '50s, maybe, and Martin got in on things later.  Have also seen a box with "Bretton Industries" and a St. Louis address.  Earlier reels were French made; I think the drag knobs or spool fronts had "Avisser" and "Devisser" stamped on them, which I assume means something along the line of "tighten" and "loosen".  Like a lot of manufacturers, build moved to Taiwan/Japan in the '80s and by '92 it was all over.

There's also a Bretton/Zangi/Orvis connection; thinking Zangi made reels for the other two & there may have been some shared patents.  Zangi made reels for Ted Williams (Sears) and Abu; was acquired by Coptes in '72; Coptes got Alcedo in '75 also by my info.  Need a scorecard to see Who's on 1st.

Some versions of the Bretton 804 had a hammered-look light green paint, with a red emblem or trim, and they are very visually attractive reels.

Frank



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 29, 2018, 02:35:44 PM

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

...


The Martin name is mentioned with Bretton, and I'm thinking it's the same Martin name related to the reel company in New York that is usually linked with fly reels.  However, I've seen Bretton boxes which mention that they are [were] exclusively distributed in the US by Ocean City in Philly.  Guessing OC distributed them in the '50s, maybe, and Martin got in on things later.  Have also seen a box with "Bretton Industries" and a St. Louis address.  Earlier reels were French made; I think the drag knobs or spool fronts had "Avisser" and "Devisser" stamped on them, which I assume means something along the line of "tighten" and "loosen".  Like a lot of manufacturers, build moved to Taiwan/Japan in the '80s and by '92 it was all over.

There's also a Bretton/Zangi/Orvis connection; thinking Zangi made reels for the other two & there may have been some shared patents.  Zangi made reels for Ted Williams (Sears) and Abu; was acquired by Coptes in '72; Coptes got Alcedo in '75 also by my info.  Need a scorecard to see Who's on 1st.

Some versions of the Bretton 804 had a hammered-look light green paint, with a red emblem or trim, and they are very visually attractive reels.

Frank

All reels using Bretton as part of their name were made in France until the early '80s when the company was reorganized & renamed Bretton International, and from that point until they ceased in 1992, reels were made in Taiwan & Japan. Bretton started making reels in 1952. Early on Bretton claimed it was second only to Mitchell in sales. A few years later in the mid/late '50s Ocean City imported them. Around 1970 Martin of Mohawk, NY started importing them and also used their name. Bretton made reels for Sears during the late '50s & early '60s, too. I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: sdlehr on March 29, 2018, 06:23:04 PM
Man you guys gotta check out the spinners that Ed Pritchard posted on ORCA. Very cool
Yeah, I came to this thread to say just that. Click here (http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21087)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on March 31, 2018, 06:33:44 PM

I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   


There was a man (Frenchman?) on ORCA some years ago who claimed the Italians always thought the Bretton 602 was a copy of a Zangi model and that some French collectors thought there was some sort of joint venture between the two companies; also speculated about patent issues, the companies sharing patents, etc.  Admittedly, nothing conclusive.

The Bretton 602 and Zangi Pelican 100 do have some points of resemblance.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on March 31, 2018, 07:44:02 PM

I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   


There was a man (Frenchman?) on ORCA some years ago who claimed the Italians always thought the Bretton 602 was a copy of a Zangi model and that some French collectors thought there was some sort of joint venture between the two companies; also speculated about patent issues, the companies sharing patents, etc.  Admittedly, nothing conclusive.

The Bretton 602 and Zangi Pelican 100 do have some points of resemblance.

Frank

That would be Jean-Paul from Belgium. Most of that was supposition and no one has ever actually tied the two companies together. The most logical summation is that Bretton actually copied the Pelican, mainly because the anti-reverse button was a different style & in a different location, and a couple of years later Bretton changed the leg from straight to curved, more than likely under pressure from Zangi. No one has ever been able to tie the French Bretton patent holders to Zangi other than the fact that they were of Italian heritage.
 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 04, 2018, 09:15:35 PM
I acquired this rare Minerva about three years ago. It was filthy but I could tell that underneath all the grunge the outside was in otherwise excellent condition. When it arrived, though, it had a little (actually pretty big) problem. The rotor cup moved in and out about a ½” and the ½ bail wouldn't trip correctly. When I disassembled it a couple of years ago I found that the main shaft oscillation tube, which has a cross piece, i.e. bail trip arm, brazed onto the rotor cup end, had been completely broken in half at the front end of the oscillation slide slot. The tube is secured by a through pin at the rear of the body housing. The pin connection was obscured by old grease and gunk and it took me awhile to figure out how to remove the tube. So, my best guess is that at some point someone tried to remove the tube by unscrewing it with a wrench or pliers and twisted it in half at its weakest point. The reel was basically useless and there was no way to repair the part so I decided I was going to have to make a new one from scratch by hand.

Once disassembled, I performed my usual cleaning process. I soaked all the unpainted metal parts, except the plated side-plates, for a couple of days in lacquer thinner. All other parts, including the plastic spool and handle knob, were thoroughly scrubbed with my favorite reel cleaner/degreaser, Original White GOOP Hand Cleaner, and then washed in Dawn dishwashing detergent and scrubbed with a tooth brush. After cleaning the painted parts were a little dull and somewhat oxidized so I used some of my old Turtle Wax Aluminum and Fiberglass Boat Rubbing Compound, which is fairly mild, on the painted surfaces inside and out. I used Clear Coat Polishing Compound on the plated side plates. I then applied a coat of Formula One Carnauba Auto Wax on everything for an amazingly glossy shine.

I went to the hardware store and bought a ¼” O.D. stainless steel tube with an I.D. smaller than the main shaft. I also picked up a couple of ½” stainless steel fender washers to make the bail trip cross bar. With a lot of time, patience and the originals for patterns, my finished part turned out great and works perfectly.

I had read about the Minerva in Ben Wright’s books and had also discussed it with him. He had previously owned one but said he sold it and it had found its way back to Italy. Ben suggested that I contact a couple of Italian collectors to find out a little more information about it. I did some extensive research and learned that the Minerva originated sometime prior to 1943 because it had been referenced in a 1943 First Edition Italian book called “Run”, and, when translated, inferred in those early days to a half bail ultra-light. I contacted the collectors in Italy to see if they had any photos of the inner mechanical workings of the reel so that I could determine whether or not my reel was complete. One of them graciously disassembled his Minerva, photographed it and sent me the pictures. The reels have a number stamped on both sides of the body frame and on the back of both side plates. His reel is # 94. Thanks to their generosity I was able to confirm that my Minerva, which is # 51, was indeed complete and all parts were original. They also informed me that the Minerva is an extremely rare reel and only 3 or 4 models were known to be in existence.

Below are a few photos taken throughout my restoration process. Unfortunately I didn’t take any photos of the reel before I started disassembly. I did, though, take a couple of pics during the process so I could remember how to put it back together again.

Here are the three photos I took while taking the reel apart. The tube is retained by a vertical through pin at the back of the body but it is completely hidden by grease. You can see in the 3rd picture that the tube is broken at the front of the oscillation slide slot.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_29_241192358.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_32_2412052.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_32_24120514.jpeg)  

These are some of the tools I used to make the main shaft oscillation tube. The ¼" SS tube, solid brass insert to strengthen the pinned end of the tube, a couple of chainsaw files to ream the inside of the tube to fit the main shaft, fine flat file, 5/64" bit for the 3/32" through pin hole and mini plumber's hack saw. Not pictured are a bench grinder, drill, mini torch for brazing the tube to the trip arm and an extra fine mini file.
  
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_36_2412289.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_36_241221510.jpeg)

Here are what's left of the SS tube & SS fender washer and most of the parts all cleaned up and ready to reassemble. You can see the #51 on the body and back of both side plates in the 2nd picture.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_39_241241427.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_41_241251528.jpeg)

Here are a few pictures taken during assembly. I opted to add two thin Mylar washers that were not included originally. I added one between the body and rotor cup to help prevent dirt from entering the rotor cup/pinion gear bushing. I added the other one between the bail trip cross bar and a felt washer inside the rotor cup to help eliminate some dirt from getting into the felt. Originally the felt washer was the only thing between the rotor cup and bail trip cross bar.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_45_241261453.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_45_241261711.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_51_241191379.jpeg)  
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_52_241291157.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_55_241301279.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_05_55_241301721.jpeg)

Here are a couple of different angles of the reel complete and ready for display, but it could actually be fished.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_06_00_2413235.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_06_00_24132128.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_03_04_18_9_59_35_241512421.jpeg)

It works perfectly and looks great! A neat little 75+ year old spinning reel that was made in Italy during the WWII era, and is probably why they are so rare.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on April 04, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
Wow.  Amazing work Tommy and a very handsome reel too.  Is it a press fit to attach the new tube to the bail trip arm?
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on April 05, 2018, 02:04:02 AM
What an amazing restoration Tom, I would have thought it couldn't be done, using the tools you're showing.
Looks like you could do just about anything. How did the fin on top of the ss tube get attached?
I'm amazed by your work Tom, nice job!

That's one cool looking reel.

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on April 05, 2018, 03:37:09 AM
Beautiful result and great skills on that job, Tommy!

Patience, cleverness, and foresight win the day...

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: bhale1 on April 05, 2018, 05:22:08 AM
Tommy,
Have to agree with the other guys. That is some very impressive work you did there. Most people probably would have written it off as a loss! A true labor of love. Are you sure you don't want to get one fish before it's shelfed ;D?
Brett


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Donnyboat on April 05, 2018, 07:18:56 AM
I agree Tom, that is good work well done, nice old reel now you have brought it back to life, thanks for showing us, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 05, 2018, 09:22:52 AM
Thanks for the interest & compliments, guys.

Steve & Sal,

I wanted to use the original arm but I couldn't get the old tube out without over reaming the hole. I used it as a pattern but made the new bail trip arm a little wider to allow for additional metal around the tube hole. I wish I had a drill press, it would have made life a little easier, especially on this job. I drilled a 7/32" hole in the arm & finished the fit (quite tight) with one of the chain saw files. I've got 6 different sizes & they come in real handy for situations like this. I made a little wood support jig to hold it square in both directions and my neighbor, who is an accomplished rail car welder, brazed them together on the back side. He did amazing work, for free too boot. Roughing the parts out with a bench grinder, etc. wasn't too difficult but putting the final touches on the arm & oscillation slot with the hand files was tedious trial, & file some more, work. It took a lot of patience. The completed project was really rewarding. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on April 05, 2018, 02:42:42 PM
   Great save Tommy...hand tools git 'er done again! 8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on April 05, 2018, 05:33:14 PM
Nice work, Tommy.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 21, 2018, 09:34:31 PM
Went through three old Swiss Fix-Reels a couple of weeks ago. They're really nothing special but I figured I'd post a little info & photos of the process anyway, just in case someone might have an interest. They consisted of a manual pickup, half bail & full bail. The manual & half bail are from the late '40s & the full bail is from the mid '50s after Hardy's full bail patent expired. The paint prep on the early models was terrible. The paint peels easily, especially in ares subjected to lubricants. The later full bail fared much better so they must have added or improved undercoating. The half bail is a knuckle buster if your finger is ahead of the leg/foot & not pulled back tight against the leg, mainly because the leg is so short. They are about the size of a Mitchell CAP/304 but somewhat heavier. All three are made the same so I'll just use the half & full bails as examples.

One of the side plate screws is an oil port (OEL). I don't think anyone ever cleaned any of them, they probably just added oil every now & them. The drag washer is wool/fiber. As you'll see, they were PIGS!

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_24_10_24267745.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_25_33_24270761.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_24_10_24267366.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_24_45_24269321.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_01_24271485.jpeg)

Here's the half & full bail parts all cleaned & ready to put back together.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_33_24272580.jpeg)

The anti-reverse mechanism works against the crank handle. It's a detent type design where the spring pushes the pin against the notches in the crank handle and the pin is engaged, & bypasses them when it's pulled back. The spring goes in the hole first, insert the pin with the beveled end in the correct direction and screw the lever into the threaded hole in the pin. Grease & lube the main gear, slip it in place and install the crank handle with the drive pin.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_33_242721082.jpeg)

The half bail parts are pretty straight forward. The bail trip plate on the underside is activated by hitting the body and the wire springs it closed and holds it in place.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_36_24274655.jpeg)

The pinion gear is held in place with a couple of notches and studs on the back side of the rotor and spanner nut on the opposite side.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_37_242751480.jpeg)

The rotor is attached to the body via the main shaft tube. The shim washer goes between the pinion and body. The tube is held in place by a small screw at the very back of the tube. Next step is to insert the main shaft and install the oscillation block.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_40_242761899.jpeg)

Here's the spool & drag knob parts. It has a standard type click dog & spring. The drag knob has two detents to prevent it from turning on the spool when adjusted.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_41_24277298.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_45_242711680.jpeg)

The full bail is an interesting design. The bail spring extension slips into the little slot on the back of the fitting.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_49_242801120.jpeg)

The bail arm fits into the large slot on the front side of the fitting.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_49_242802063.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_52_242821051.jpeg)


The bail trip mechanism is detent oriented and screws onto the back of the rotor. When you open the bail the detent catches on the bail arm and is tripped when the bail arm contacts the body just behind the rotor.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_53_242832356.jpeg)

Here's the half bail all lubed up and ready to install the main gear side plate, handle knob, spool and drag knob. Just above the leg you can see a hole in the body. That's the oil port when the screw on the side plate marked "OEL" is removed.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_45_242781746.jpeg)

All three together. Left to right: manual pickup, half bail & full bail.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_55_242841718.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_17_04_18_11_26_55_2427273.jpeg)

Nothing really special but a neat part of spinning reel history, a little different design and some Swiss craftsmanship. 



     

 

   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on April 21, 2018, 09:53:38 PM
Thank you for another great look and explanation Tommy.  They weren't kidding around when they made those.  I think the oil hole is perfect.  The oil drops onto the main and the main spreads it to the pinion and the pinion spreads it to the oscillation shaft and it gets all over the place.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on April 22, 2018, 06:55:03 AM
Nice! Relatively simple and tuff lookin. Possibly built by, or influenced by watch/clock makers, they made use of alotta springs. This thread's been onea the most interesting for me, givin the historical variability of spinning reel design.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on April 22, 2018, 10:31:08 AM
Interesting reel indeed!  I don't know anything about Swiss reels other than the Swiss Whiz and your reels are several cuts above those.  :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 22, 2018, 12:32:01 PM
Interesting reel indeed!  I don't know anything about Swiss reels other than the Swiss Whiz and your reels are several cuts above those.  :)

The Swiss Whiz wasn't Swiss.  ;) It was a cheap American made reel from Detroit, MI manufactured by Myco, Inc. Back in those days Swiss watch makers were a big deal so Myco used that terminology as sales propaganda. They probably found some shirttail related Swiss dude as the design engineer so they could make the claim they had Swiss engineering.  ::) I always chuckle when I see one of those "tuna can" reels.  :D I have yet to figure out why people pay so much for them,  ??? they're not rare & they're not a quality made reel.  :o


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on April 22, 2018, 12:39:16 PM
Ah, then Popular Mechanics made a big boo boo in one of their back issues.  ;D

https://books.google.com/books?id=aNwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=swiss+whiz+spinning+reel&source=bl&ots=wFyD2Rg67J&sig=HVZGvu9JmhK7rTyVv9FK9W5Iwro&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy6OOd3c7aAhVOZKwKHUpgDy8Q6AEIYTAN#v=onepage&q=swiss%20whiz%20spinning%20reel&f=false


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on April 22, 2018, 06:14:24 PM
"Shirt tail related Swiss dude"  Can't figure out the emoji deal, so I'll just say " good one!" 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 22, 2018, 07:47:56 PM
Ah, then Popular Mechanics made a big boo boo in one of their back issues.  ;D

Ha! Then Popular Mechanics got duped on the propaganda, too.  :)  It says right on the paperwork at the bottom of the front page "Made in America by Myco, Inc."  :D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on April 22, 2018, 10:50:17 PM
Whew!  That was a rabbit hole.  Just spent half the evening reading a 1953 issue of Popular Mechanics.  What was interesting then is mundane now.  What was mundane then (ads and classified) is interesting now.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 23, 2018, 07:58:30 AM
Whew!  That was a rabbit hole.  Just spent half the evening reading a 1953 issue of Popular Mechanics.  What was interesting then is mundane now.  What was mundane then (ads and classified) is interesting now.
-steve

Ain't that the truth!  ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on April 26, 2018, 08:35:30 PM
Been organizing a few reels to add to my third display cabinet and came across this cute little Orvis 50A. I got it about 10 years ago with a 5' Master boron rod for $15 for the pair. My dad likes boron rods so I gave him the rod and cleaned up the reel, and then stuck it in a storage tote. I used some regular old reel grease on a few of my first renos so when I pulled it out of the box it was kind of stiff. I did a quick tear down, got rid of the old grease & relubed it with Super Lube. Took a couple of photos along the way & figured I share them.

It's no wonder some reels get a little stiff. Here's what the ten year old unfished grease looked like.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_9_02_28_2438849.jpeg)

Cleaned the major drive parts with lacquer thinner & they're ready to reassemble.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_8_04_43_243821170.jpeg)

The anti-reverse mechanism lubed with grease & oil, in place & operating correctly.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_8_04_42_243812012.jpeg)

Main gear, oscillation arm, main shaft and handle installed, ready to button up with the sideplate, spool & drag knob.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_8_04_48_243841258.jpeg)

All back together working like new with quality up to date lubrication that won't stiffen up for many years.    :)

(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_8_04_47_243831621.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/24/17004_26_04_18_8_04_49_24385437.jpeg)

The Orvis 50A, made by Zangi in the late '60s, is a nice little quality Italian made Ultra Light spinning reel.  8) 

   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on April 27, 2018, 11:52:34 AM
That Orvis looks pretty good.  Master was one of the last bigger manufacturer to offer boron rods, I think; they were still selling them in the early '90s when a lot of the other guys had already packed it in or were planning to do so.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on April 27, 2018, 01:21:08 PM
I like the simplicity of the engineering on that Orvis.  Lots of the larger sizes going for decent prices on the big auction but the 50 is demasiado caro!  :o


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 18, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Here are a couple of unique German designed half bail reels from the early 1950's pre-Hardy full bail patent expiration time frame, Silent and Silent Spin-Flyte, both 1950- 1954. They were made by Graf Hagenbrg KG from Sonthofen, Allgau, Germany. They were distributed/sold by French Industries of San Francisco, CA.

The bail operation is quite different from any other half bail of the times. The bail arm has a regular coil type bail spring. The bail opens up the spool for casting, rather than by pulling the bail out, up and out of the way, by pulling it back and down to be held in place by a post on the rotor. The reel has an external post on the top of the body that trips the bail to wind line normally onto the spool.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_47_269131875.jpeg)

The reel on the left has the half bail in its normal retrieve position. The reel on the right has the half bail open ready to cast. You can see the studs on the rotors that hold the half bail open and on the bodies that trip it closed.

Here are a couple of photos of the inner workings.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_34_26905930.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_35_269062319.jpeg)

The pinion worm gear is steel and supported on both ends by ball bearings. The front ball bearing is encased and the rear bearing has  balls sandwiched between two steel washers. The main gear is brass and has hollow spaces between the spokes. The reels have a constant gravity activated anti-reverse. The anti-reverse dog is located on the side plate near the front. It has a small flat spring under it to keep it in the appropriate position. When the crank is turned backwards the dog flips out into the spaces in the main gear and stops rotation, kind of.  :) The dog doesn't always hit precisely in the space and sometimes hops over until the gear stops at an optimal position. It's not the best anti-reverse design I've ever seen but it does eventually stop rotation. One mylar washer goes under the spool and mylar washers go on each side of the keyed washer in the recessed area on top of the spool under the drag knob. The rubber washer goes on top of the stack and is for drag pressure. Not a lot of adjustment but it works smoothly. The lower photo shows how the drag click works. There is a wire attached to, and wrapped around, the main shaft fitting and then bent down into a L shape that hits the raised areas on the bottom of the spool when line is payed out. That contact makes the click sound.

I received a Silent as a parts reel in a lot awhile back. It was missing the bail and had a small J shaped heavy wire pinned into the bail arm screw hole that was used as a manual line pickup. The anti-reverse dog & spring was also missing. I contemplated how to make and attach a nicer manual line pickup. Sal, thank you again kind sir, was nice enough to send me a free gratis bail with a conical line pickup area. I had some old steel bail plates, bail screws, roller & nuts. I also made a new dog out of a piece of SS washer and a spring from some thin brass sheet I have.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_31_26903588.jpeg)

First I filed the raised area on the rotor down to a larger flat area where the bail plate rests and drilled a small hole in the same location as the spring hole in the bail plate so that I could insert a pin that would keep the bail plate from rotating.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_30_26903886.jpeg)

I cut the bail wire off just in front of the conical area. I filed and sanded it round and smooth. I also reshaped and rebent the metal bail plate for better fit and functionality.

Here are all three reels together. The handle knob is spring loaded so it can be flipped in towards the body and out of the way. The parts reel, even though it's no longer original with its PUM, is now a well functioning, almost 70 year old. reel.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_45_269122406.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_44_269112390.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_42_2690955.jpeg)

While working on these reels I uncovered some interesting information. The Charles Garcia Corporation imported a few reels other than the famous Mitchell and ABU Ambassadeur lines. Among those reels were the Atlantis and the Spinette manufactured Dr Karl Plate of the famous German monofilament maker Platil. In 1954 Dr. Plate acquired the Silent patents and started manufacture of the Atlantis. Since the Hardy full bail patent had expired the Atlantis incorporated a full bail, externally tripped. The Atlantis also has an adjustable dog & ratchet gear style anti-reverse. The drag knob, while clear plastic, is the same shape as the Silent's. The drag washer configuration is a little different but the spool click mechanics are exactly the same, as is the basic drive train and bearing design save for the anti-reverse mechanics and design.

Here are the Silent and Atlantis reels side by side for comparison. You can clearly see their similarities.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_38_269071582.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_39_269082396.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_42_269091292.jpeg)

Here we have the Platil made Atlantis and Garcia Spinette.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_49_2691434.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_52_269167.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/26/17004_18_01_19_3_39_50_26914857.jpeg)

These are all some interesting and cool old '50s quality German made spinning reels.                        


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 18, 2019, 10:23:37 PM
Thanks, Tommy —

Those are really neat reels — thanks for the write up, pics, and education!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on January 20, 2019, 10:27:03 AM
Beautiful reels Tommy, thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Nice little jewels built like a tank...

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on January 22, 2019, 05:38:57 PM
WOW! Extremely interesting, both the history and the reels.  Thanks, Tommy.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on January 23, 2019, 07:25:45 AM
   This is a reel I saw posted by Pompano Joe. It has an interesting drivetrain  design...never seen one quite like this. Just thought I'd share...maybe someone can elaborate on it. 8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on January 23, 2019, 09:48:46 AM
It's a Shakespeare 2000. They were offered from '69 through about 1972 during Shakespeare's transition era with Noris, Pfluger and factory move to Arkansas. Shakespeare went through a lot of changes during that time frame including cheapening down the costs & quality of their reels. It's an interesting change compared to the "Maroon" and previous "Wonder" lines. One can truly see how they cut corners. The early examples had a plastic rotor cup but so many broke they changed the rotor to metal on the latter issues. I've often wondered if the parts were made in Japan and assembled here in the US. I've never been able to confirm that, though.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on January 23, 2019, 10:25:04 AM
Thanks Tommy, for the history —

If this reel has a main bearing — it is not too bad of a light reel.

The obvious weak links are the nylon oscillation block, the cast crank handle, and more subtlety — but from an engineering importance — the off center transition gear between the main gear and pinion.

If any grease gets old or hard in this reel — and forced — something will break that cannot be sourced without a donor reel.

The differences between a reel like this — and other more well engineered reels, is:

Solid and sleeved support points front and rear for the pinion, a center-line crank that operates evenly the rotor and spool oscillation.  And these friction points need to be supported with a tough frame, then backed up with brass sleeving. 

Plus, quality of materials designed for tough fishing and longevity that surpasses generations.

Examples of the tough reels are Penn, ABU/Zebco Cardinals, DAM Quicks, previous Shakes, and a few others.

I do however, love these old spinners that you guys are showing us.  We can see by studying, using, and having these on our benches — the good, bad, and ugly. 

There are literally hundreds of variations of old spinners from the 50’s through early 80’s — only a few of them have stood the test of time and angling demands.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on March 07, 2019, 04:22:45 AM
This is a really good thread that I completely missed! I just posted a video I did on some reel oddities that I own in this forum and I scrolled down and saw this thread! Y'all have some really cool stuff! I saw a few that I need to try to add to my collection. Here are some of the strange ones I own:

https://youtu.be/jwgqInkPQV4


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Darin Crofton on March 07, 2019, 05:48:04 AM
What a cool thread, so happy I found it, and down the rabbit hole I go . . . . . . .


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Dominick on March 07, 2019, 11:18:09 AM
Cool reels and video.  Keep them coming.  Dominick


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on March 07, 2019, 11:46:13 AM
Thanks, Kevin —

Neat video and good information!

B3st,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 03, 2019, 10:27:32 AM
This is a cute little mid '50s spinner from an Italian company named SPEM. SPEM is considered the oldest company in Italy with ties to fishing equipment and gearing, and has a history which goes as far back as 1750. SPEM is the acronym for Sport, Pesca, Milano. They started manufacture of fishing reels shortly after WWII. There were about twenty different models made by SPEM. This little reel is about the same size as a Garcia Mitchell 304, but quite a bit lighter. It's named Velox and was imported, and distributed in the US, by the Ideal Co. of  Sykesville, PA.

Here are the parts cleaned and ready for installation. As you can see, there aren't a whole lot of them.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_25_277481777.jpeg)

The conical tapered line guide is built into the bail and has one bail spring. The opposite side bail fitting appears to be pressed in with a flared end on the bail so I cleaned the fitting and bail end intact and decided not to try to remove the fitting. The pinion gear is brass and held in place with tree screws from the rotor into the pinion flange. The bail trip lever is a pretty basic design.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_25_277502367.jpeg)

This is the anti-reverse dog and spring. The anti-reverse knob is knurled and rotates completely around. There is no stop so it can be turned in either direction to activate or deactivate the A/R.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_28_27751310.jpeg)

The main gear has anti-reverse ratchet teeth on the back side and a groove in the face that accommodates a pin for main shaft oscillation. (Lousy photo quality, BTW.  :-[)

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_29_27752492.jpeg)

The rotor is held in place against the body housing via the main shaft tube. The main shaft tube also has a plate brazed on the end that is used to trip the bail. The small brass screw holds the main shaft tube in place, and in turn is the only thing that secures the rotor to the body. Needless to say, there is a little play between the rotor and body housing. The main shaft has a threaded hole that accommodates a pin which rides in the oscillation groove on the main gear. The pin slides back and forth in the slot in the body for oscillation.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_32_277531221.jpeg)

Here the main internal parts are installed ready for the side plate and main gear to be positioned and fastened with screws. The pinion and main gear are both brass. The drag consists of one felt and one keyed metal washer. It works adequately for a light reel of this size, but remove the drag knob and both wahers fall right out. The handle is threaded and is also retained with a hex nut.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_32_277531272.jpeg)

It’s all together and this is what it looks like. You can see that knurled anti-reverse knob in the second photo. It’s a cute little reel, but not high quality.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_35_27755472.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_36_277552065.jpeg)

Here is the SPEM Velox beside a Garcia Mitchell 304 for size comparison. This specific 304, by-the-way, was my very first open face spinning reel, and the braided nylon line on the spool has been on that reel since about 1968.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/27/17004_01_05_19_7_13_38_2775783.jpeg) 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on May 03, 2019, 10:41:09 AM
That is interesting to see. You don't happen to have a picture of the anti-reverse teeth on the main gear do you?
Neat little reel.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on May 03, 2019, 10:59:19 AM
Great detail Tommy. Another one of those very interesting "never heard of this company or reel before" things for me.
That looks like a huge main gear. What's the ratio?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on May 03, 2019, 11:08:15 AM
Cool, Tommy!

I do not have one of those that I know of, and was not aware of the company.

I see many similarities to Luxor, Mitchell, OC, AGAL, and a few others.

Just lesser quality, as you point out.

Best,

Fred



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on May 03, 2019, 01:53:45 PM
Interesting and informative on the SPEM and the 5 "odd feature" reels with the video.  More entertaining than TV.  And, a nice research effort for all the background info.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on May 03, 2019, 03:55:27 PM
Thanks for sharing, Tommy.  Interesting oscillation and anti-reverse system.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 03, 2019, 07:12:57 PM
Great detail Tommy. Another one of those very interesting "never heard of this company or reel before" things for me.
That looks like a huge main gear. What's the ratio?

58 teeth on the main gear & 18 on the pinion, roughly 3.2:1.

Quote
You don't happen to have a picture of the anti-reverse teeth on the main gear do you?

I took it apart & took a couple of picks for you. (see below) It is a one piece brass gear and the ratchet portion is cast as part of the main gear. I've never seen them one piece before, usually the ratchet gear is a separate piece of metal. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on May 03, 2019, 07:28:48 PM
Thanks for the picture! That is an interesting reel. What about it seems inferior to the 304, just curious.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 03, 2019, 09:55:13 PM
There's not a whole lot of difference, really. Both have their pluses & minuses. Tolerances are a little tighter and materials in the 304 are a little more stout, other than maybe the plastic oscillation block. Lighter materials in the Velox appear have worn a little more, therefore it makes a little more noise. Both were fairly basic reels in their day, but they were still well enough made to last 65 years.   :)   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on May 04, 2019, 03:41:13 AM
Thanks! You really have some interesting stuff!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 04, 2019, 07:48:50 AM
Thanks, Kevin, .....and..... a lot of it, too. (https://youtu.be/MvgN5gCuLac?t=120)   ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on May 04, 2019, 08:13:46 AM
Tommy is doing such a good job on these cool, historical old reels —

It is inspiring me to pull a few more out of the mothball bins for posting.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on May 05, 2019, 06:42:46 AM
Thanks, Kevin, .....and..... a lot of it, too. (https://youtu.be/MvgN5gCuLac?t=120)   ;D
;D haha!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Bill B (Tarfu) on June 08, 2019, 08:23:44 AM
While not officially a spinning reel, it does have "spin" caster in it name 😉  Picked it up in a bundle of stuff at an estate sale.....I don't really know much about spin casters, but it seems to be ok.....what are your ideas about the Abu Garcia Abumatic 170C......is it worth fishing with?  Bill


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on June 08, 2019, 08:28:54 AM
While not officially a spinning reel, it does have "spin" caster in it name 😉  Picked it up in a bundle of stuff at an estate sale.....I don't really know much about spin casters, but it seems to be ok.....what are your ideas about the Abu Garcia Abumatic 170C......is it worth fishing with?  Bill
I just got done rebuilding one last week! Nice reel but I did have a problem with it. The spool would unseat when reeling with the rod tip low and it would flop around. I used some super glue sparingly to secure it (shouldn't have any problem getting it loose if I need to). I'd be curious to see if yours does the same thing.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 09:05:29 AM
The Abu-Matic's were IMO, one of the best spincasters from back in the day. I disassembled my brothers 120 a-while back and was impressed with the engineering. If can remember it right, the drag would lossen up for a running fish when the handle was pulled backwards( maybe the "matic" part of the name ?).
Bill is your's made in Sweden or elsewhere?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on June 08, 2019, 09:14:22 AM
If can remember it right, the drag would lossen up for a running fish when the handle was pulled backwards( maybe the "matic" part of the name ?).

   That's correct G, it's the same system the Ambassadeur D models use. I never could get used to that...but it does work very well. We use the older red metal bodied 170s still, they are great reels.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Bill B (Tarfu) on June 08, 2019, 09:21:20 AM
This one is Japanese, per the sticker on the foot.  Dumb question but after removing the spool cover how does this come apart for service?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on June 08, 2019, 09:43:51 AM
This one is Japanese, per the sticker on the foot.  Dumb question but after removing the spool cover how does this come apart for service?
The rotor/pickup assembly unscrews by holding the handle so it can't turn. You will see off/on with arrows on the spool, turn it in the off direction until it stops and then pull it straight off. You will see 3 screws that will need to be removed to take the back cover/button assembly off.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Robert Janssen on June 08, 2019, 02:43:29 PM
...the drag would lossen up for a running fish when the handle was pulled backwards( maybe the "matic" part of the name ?...

This was called Synchro Drag. By turning the handle a quarter turn backwards, drag could be reduced by up to 75%. Available on some of the Abumatics and the Ambassadeur 7000 Synchro for several years. (only on the 7xxx size for some reason, afaik... dunno why)

  
Quote
That's correct G, it's the same system the Ambassadeur D models use...

No, the D reels (4xxx and 5xxx) did not have the Synchro function. The D was for Direct Drive-- they still had a drag system, but the handle would back-pedal when paying out line.

.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 04:19:55 PM
Ok, I can offer up 1 circular gear box reel from the US. This is the Bache Brown Mastereel, model 3, from the Airex Corp. which is a division of the Lionel Corp. Wow, that outta be an interesting buisness history. This babies got alota metal in it!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 04:30:01 PM
Here's all the disassembled parts. Plastic parts are the drag knob, the handle knob and the spool sleeve. Don't know metallurgy too well, but it has an aluminium spool, what looks like a stainless steel rotor(chromed brass?), brass pinion and bushings, mabey an aluminium body and the main gear-?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: The Fishing Hobby on June 08, 2019, 04:42:40 PM
I've seen those Mastereels a lot on the big auction site. Always wondered if they feel like a coffee grinder after cleaning up or if they are smooth...I'm about to find out  ;D
I like the way they look, similar to the Cap, Mitchell, Luxor round body reels.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 04:57:07 PM
The "half bail" and auto-return system. A sturdy lookin system: the bail piviots outward and note that there's a little knob at the bottom for manual(finger pressure) return. The rotor seems to be permanently attached to the pinion underneath the body and possibly by the rivet on the propeller lookin return unit. Also the line roller is permanently rivited to the bail with an oil hole on one side.
That would be one negitive for me, these and a few other parts such as the handle knob, are not replaceable other than by peening or riviting. As I remember my DAM Quick 250 standard, nearly everything was held by removable fasteners.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 05:06:43 PM
The ossilation system. Simple: a knob on the main gear that actuates a brass ossilator, a nice little brass roller behind that and then there's a modified screw in the spool shaft.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 05:18:21 PM
The anti-reverse system: it's actuated by an aluminium main gear sleeve which is real convenient as it's right next to your left hand, you twist it about 1/4 turn-on or off. The antireverse pawl blocking movement of the main gear shaft is not the best arrangement for strength purposes. In Mo's "B Grade Spinning Reels" thread, I remember a Heddon model that had the antireverse pawl on a rachet right above the pinion, which may well be the best system.
You can see how there's a stud on the pawl where the spring attaches. The stud went through the gear cover via a little groove and was permanently attached to the on/off gear sleeve unit. It busted. You can maybe just see it sheered off on the edge of the aluminium main gear sleeve. SCREWS! Dammit...


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: festus on June 08, 2019, 05:31:09 PM
Interesting reel, Gfish.  My father had an old Airex that was similar with the half bail on a rod with a Tennessee handle.  However, it wasn't working as long as I can remember.  He bought himself a South Bend spinner on a 6' rod and got me a red spincaster when l was 11 or 12. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on June 08, 2019, 05:38:55 PM
A nice tuff little spinner with a 1/2 bail and a 3.5:1 retrieve rate. Typical of spinners from this era, not alota line capacity. I like the simplicity of the systems. The drag ramps up quickly and could use more parts(washers), I'm sure it won't be smooth at higher settings. And last but not least: more removable fasteners!

"Look Bengie, Grandpa's a big reel nerd!"


"Yup."


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: David Hall on June 08, 2019, 09:09:51 PM
Yep and all grandpas buddies are reel nerds too. There’s no escape.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on June 08, 2019, 09:18:26 PM
Cute kid.  Entertaining read.  Thank you.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on June 09, 2019, 02:32:49 AM
Interesting reel Gregg, reminds me of the CrAck.
Oh, cute kid...hell be showing you how it's done in no  time :)

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Benni3 on June 09, 2019, 08:04:16 AM
On the Abu 170c I use one for 8 years,,,, :D great reels,,,,biggest fish 25lb mahi,,,,,gregg your going to take the little one fishing,,,,,,, ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels -- Tokoz Tap 451
Post by: Robert Janssen on September 04, 2019, 06:16:05 PM
Thought y'all might like to see this peculiar unit. This is a Tokoz Tap 451, from Czechoslovakia. Originally conceived by Mr Adolf Tlustos in 1945, he named  the reel TAP for Tlustoš Adolf of Prague. The company was doing fairly well and the reels were considered very fine indeed. Some time after WWII the company was nationalized and became Tokoz. Tokoz continued to manufacture the reels for many years. This unit here is a much more modern version, quite probably lacking any of the finesse of the early reels, but the mechanical concept remains the same.

A first glance shows a relatively normal looking reel, albeit sorta squarish form-follows-function design. Very utilitarian.

A second look from the side shows that the spool is way crooked, as if the shaft was bent or something. Odd.

A quick, basic disassembly shows that it uses a reverse slew gear drive to spin the rotor like so many other reels, at a fairly slow ratio, just under 3:1.

The knob at the back twists 90 degrees and locks / unlocks the antireverse.

Under the spool there is some sort of a small face gear, mounted in such as way as to wobble on its shaft, like a swash plate. This face gear has a counterpart on the spool, but since the spool is canted at that peculiar angle, only a very small portion of the geared section actually mate. This entails that as the rotor whizzes 'round, the face gear wobbles, bringing the spool with it at a much slower rate. Since the spool is canted, any line being wound onto it is laid in a spiral, and since the spool rotates, said line is laid evenly on the spool, thusly negating the need for an oscillating mechanism. Clever!

The drag, incidentally, is also mounted under the spool, in a typical bare-bones fashion... felt washer, metal washer, and that's about it.

 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Robert Janssen on September 04, 2019, 06:17:01 PM
Aaand a little video to show that...




Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Maxed Out on September 04, 2019, 08:38:36 PM
 Wow, now that is unique, and very cool. Never imagined a spinning reel with a spool didn't go up and down when retrieving. It likely had a few inherent flaws that made the design obsolete.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on September 05, 2019, 04:38:31 AM
Interesting concept !


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 05, 2019, 05:54:34 AM
Wow!

Thanks for sharing this, Robert...

Clever design and concept.

Did this line retrieval system ever become very popular in Europe — and were these reels made in any numbers?

Always appreciate your unique perspectives and information, Robert!

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 05, 2019, 11:00:41 AM
Thanks for the video clip, Robert. It's interesting to see the crosswind concept in action. They were made in various sizes. (http://antiknavijaky.freepage.cz/nova-stranka-128857/) There sure is an awful lot of information on that site.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on September 05, 2019, 11:29:23 AM
Dude!
The external look on this one "unusual", but the action is something else!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on September 05, 2019, 12:03:39 PM
I'm impressed by the compact gear case.  When you get rid of all that up-down spool oscillation stuff that had been there since Illingworth the reel can become much smaller and lighter.  Ingenious. What's the time frame on that Robert?
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 05, 2019, 01:23:53 PM
That line winding idea is wild.  Afraid I might get dizzy watching it if I used one.  But, ingenious, for sure.  Thanks for the post.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oldmanjoe on September 05, 2019, 06:58:18 PM
Aaand a little video to show that...



  Strange , The video shows the wobble plate going side to side and no spin , and yet with the spool on you see spin and no wobble !


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Silvers on September 08, 2019, 05:41:25 AM
Wow!

Thanks for sharing this, Robert...

Clever design and concept.

Did this line retrieval system ever become very popular in Europe — and were these reels made in any numbers?

Always appreciate your unique perspectives and information, Robert!

Best,

Fred

I remember at those reels in my children time, where my dad use such reel...and i still have it found in a hidden box. ;D

The line retrieval system is an very old czech patent and was only use in TAP/Tokoz reels from czech. It is very unique, i dont know any other reel from europe or everwhere which use this concept.
Those reels was made in few series over a long time.

Here is a czech site which show a lot of them (only czech language)

http://www.dexempo.cz/svet_ryb/rybarske_muzeum/expozice/TOKOZ/navijaky/tap/index.htm
http://www.dexempo.cz/svet_ryb/rybarske_muzeum/expozice/TOKOZ/navijaky/index.htm

At first link there is also a picture of a schematic which shows those system.
Dismantling all parts of the reel for maintenance isnt easy, it needs special tools for which was only getting when you bought a new reel.
The bad thing of those reels was the bail spring, a simple small wire which was just wrapped around the bailholder in the rotor.

Hope this gives you a deeper view at those unique reels. ;)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on September 08, 2019, 06:21:24 AM
Thank You, Silvers!

Great information.

Best Always,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on September 08, 2019, 06:53:38 AM
Yes, thanks for those links...very interesting reading !


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 08, 2019, 09:51:46 AM
Great information &site, Silvers! Thanks for sharing!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: JAL on September 25, 2019, 02:17:37 PM
Hello there fellow reel-enthusiasts  :)
I'm new here so this will be my first post.
I've recently been given this fine old spincast/spinning reel. I don't really know a lot about it, and neither does the internet apparently. It is a Nikko Sangyo "No. 550 JET", allegedly produced mid 1960's. It has a nice selector switch by the handle, determining the winding direction and the left and right side plates are interchangeable, thus making it a left/right handed spinning or spincast reel. I think it is a cool little reel allthough the drag design could be a lot better. It consists of a simple spring that squeezes both sides of the spool. Turning the knob on top (or bottom if you set it up to be a spinning reel) of the reel simply pulls the spring in between two posts, and so increases the tension.

Does anybody know anything about it? ???

Oh, by the way. I'm danish so my appologies if my written english is subpar  :D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on September 25, 2019, 02:22:03 PM
Welcome !  Where at, in Denmark ?


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: JAL on September 25, 2019, 02:40:29 PM
Welcome !  Where at, in Denmark ?

Thank you Crow  :D
I live near Sorø, in the middle of Zealand.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 25, 2019, 04:03:27 PM
Do searches on "Nikko Sangyo" and "Angler". There is a lot of information out there about their reels and who had them manufacture reels for their companies. Nikko Sangyo is still in business but they only manufactured reels for a few years in the '60s.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on September 25, 2019, 04:58:12 PM
Welcome, JAL, to the AT site, from Minnesota, USA.  

Your first post is a winner.  Interesting reel.  Exterior look, switchable covers/handle, ability to use as spincast or spinning, drag knob on top, etc., remind me of the old Johnson Century/Citation reels, although your reel has a different drag.  Looks like the spool might be reversible too, also like the Johnsons.  There's a YouTube vid on the 550.

Got a bit of Danish blood in my heritage, and down the road a piece from my hometown is a town with much Danish heritage, Danebod Folk School and a summer "fest" called "Aebleskiver Days".

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: broadway on September 25, 2019, 05:03:28 PM
Robert, that is one cool spinning reel.  Is the gear on the handle one piece hobbed into the handle or installed on the end?
Also, when oscillating does it install the line on straight or does it kinda create an "X" overlap?
Thanks for showing,
Dom
PS- Welcome to the board Jal. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on September 25, 2019, 10:39:49 PM
I've recently been given this fine old spincast/spinning reel.
Do searches on "Nikko Sangyo" and "Angler". There is a lot of information out there about their reels and who had them manufacture reels for their companies. Nikko Sangyo is still in business but they only manufactured reels for a few years in the '60s.

Wow, that's it!  I received a reel just like that for my birthday in 1962.  It was my first new reel (not a hand-me-down).  It was on a yellow Wonderod bait-casting rod.

It was purchased from the local Western Auto Store and marked "Revelation" like their trade firearms.

I tried to look it up one time and found photos of some gray ones but never a red/black one like mine.  The drag knob is the weak link and is the first thing to break.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Robert Janssen on September 26, 2019, 08:48:46 AM
Dom, yes-- it is a seperate piece. And yes, criss-cross pattern.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: JAL on September 27, 2019, 02:27:01 AM
Thank you guys for your kind replies to my first post. I guess my google-fu is weak as I have not previously been able to find any info on the angler reels. It might be because i got millions of hits searching for "angler reel" :-\

It does share a lot of similarities with the johnson reels, and the spool is indeed reversible. Here is a picture of the other side of the spool.

I have just cleaned it and set it up to be a lh spincast reel to use on my ABU Tournament II rod from the same era. I think it is pretty cool to use a combo that is probably older than my parents (both born in '63).



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on October 31, 2019, 04:36:41 PM
Any of you "old timers", like me  ;D, remember hearing about the craftsmanship of those old Swiss watch makers? Well here's a reel from around 1960. It's the Recordette 21 made in Switzerland by the Record Reel Co. In its time it was considered an ultra-lite. The body is small. The larger rotor helps eliminate line twist.

I don't think it has ever been fished, and I also don't think it had ever been serviced.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_48_53_29919764.jpeg)

Here's a couple of shots I took along the disassembly route. They show the old dried grease & oil stains.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_49_00_299222163.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_49_03_299231387.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_49_03_299231045.jpeg)

There certainly was a lot of grease, as Mo would say, "under the hood".  ::)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_49_07_299251228.jpeg)

Like most of the old Record reels, the click spring is mounted on the side plate.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_49_07_29925535.jpeg)

Got everything cleaned up with a good lacquer thinner soak on the non-painted metal parts and Original White Goop scrub and Dawn & warm water soak on the painted and plastic parts. This little cutie is ready to put back together.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_07_29927986.jpeg)

As always, I start with the rotor cup and install the bail and bail trip mechanism. On this reel the pinion gear is slightly flared onto the main shaft tube. The bushing is installed ahead of the pinion gear and the main shaft tube is threaded into the rotor cup. There must be a special tool to hold that tube in place while unscrewing the rotor but I don't have anything that I thought would secure it enough to remove the rotor so I left it in place and cleaned it thoroughly. Notice the unique configuration of the bail spring. It's not sprung or twisted, that's the way it was made to function. I lube the spring & pockets with ArmorAll.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_10_299281527.jpeg)

Once the bail spring and arm are installed it's time for the bail trip arm to be installed. The slotted bolt goes in from the backside and the arm pivots on the nut. I add a little oil here, no grease to gum things up.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_11_299281703.jpeg)

Now it's time to install the bail and set the rotor aside to install later. It has a SS roller guide that actually spins. I use ArmorAll on the roller guide, too.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_14_299301545.jpeg)

Time to install the body mechanics. The anti-reverse dogs and lever are pressed/riveted in so they had to be cleaned in place. I lubed them with a synthetic oil and a light coat of Super Lube. (my favorite grease). The anti-reverse ratchet is a separate gear and mounts on a pin on the back of the main gear. They get a good coat of Super Lube and a little oil to help thin the grease.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_15_299311363.jpeg)

With the main gear in place it's time to install the rotor. The pinion gear and bushing get greased & oiled just like the main gear. A set screw protrudes into the groove on the bushing and retains the the rotor.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_17_299321246.jpeg)

Now it's time to install the main shaft, oscillation block and click spring onto the sideplate. The oscillation block goes onto the main gear first. The main shaft installs from the rear and goes through a hole in the block. The block is held in place on the shaft by two e-clips. I installed the rear e-clip prior to inserting the main shaft and installed the second one after the shaft is in place. The main shaft has a pin that fits in a slot in the bushing in the brake cavity. The end of the bushing has slots. The spring on the sideplate rubs on that extension and clicks when that bushing rotates.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_20_299331776.jpeg)

Time to install the brake parts. The small washer is leather and the large washer is a wool like fiber material. It's adequate for the reel design and has decent adjustment. Here you can see how the click spring will ride against the slots in the bushing.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_21_29934195.jpeg)

Next step is to put together the handle and install it and the spool. To tighten or remove the spool on Record reels the drag knob has to be tightened down as tight as it will go because there's no front drag knob and the main shaft and spool are both threaded.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_28_299371079.jpeg)

All done! The Recordette 21 is a cute little reel and functions well. They came in turquoise and in black. Both are a little tough to come by, especially the turquoise colored one.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_27_299361388.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17004_30_10_19_7_50_24_29935380.jpeg)  
 
 

 







Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on October 31, 2019, 04:51:29 PM
   That is a sweetie Tom! Fantastic clean up...thanks for the look inside. 8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on October 31, 2019, 05:05:29 PM
That's a neat one !  I'll bet the old grease you scraped out weighed as much as the reel !!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on October 31, 2019, 05:20:46 PM
That's a neat one !  I'll bet the old grease you scraped out weighed as much as the reel !!

As much as the body, anyway.  :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on October 31, 2019, 05:33:30 PM
Thanks, Tom!

Love the color, engineering, and your skills.

I have quite a few Records and Thommens just waiting in bins for lamps -- but have never seen one of these.

Best, Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on October 31, 2019, 11:22:36 PM
Thank you Tommy.  So, there's a Swiss Record reel and a Swedish (ABU) Record reel.  Are they kin or is it just coincidence?
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 01, 2019, 11:16:16 AM
Thank you Tommy.  So, there's a Swiss Record reel and a Swedish (ABU) Record reel.  Are they kin or is it just coincidence?
-steve

The Swedish ABU Record spinning reel (ABU 500, 600 & 700) parts were made by the Swiss Record Reel Co. A.B. Urfabriken Co (Sweden) was founded in 1921. A.B means corporation and Urfabriken means watch factory. In 1926 A.B. Urfabriken Co introduced it's first "Record" Taximeter. WWII forced a decline in taximeter sales & production. Gote Borgstrom, the heir to A.B. Urfabriken Co, loved fishing and in 1941 introduced their first bait caster to the Swedish wholesalers. That is how "Record" became part of the ABU bait caster history.

In 1945, in Switzerland, Karl Seigrest filed for an open face spinning reel design patent and in 1946 the Swiss Record Reel Co introduced their rear drag Record spinning reel. At that time there was no connection between A.B. Urfabriken and the Swiss Record Reel Co.

Gote Borgstrom had very little interest in spinning reels and didn't want to invest in tooling and machinery to manufacture them. In 1949 Gote was contacted by the Swiss Record Reel Co to see if A.B. Urfabriken would be interested in selling the Swiss Record spinning reels in Sweden. A deal was made where A.B. Urfabriken (ABU) would buy the parts from Swiss Record and assemble them in the Swedish factory. The side plates referenced A.B. Urfabriken Sweden and that is where the "Swiss Record" connection, only in the open face spinning reels, occurred. It is also to be noted that at a couple of years later ABU contracted with Zangi of Italy to manufacture various models, the 222, 225, 888, 999 & 1000, and with Sportex of Germany, the 400 & 450, that also were sold as A.B. Urfabriken Record reels. All of those reels were sold exclusively in Scandinavia and were no longer available by the mid 1960s.

In 1955 ABU came out with their first solely designed and manufactured open face spinning reel, the 444. The 444 was distributed in the US by the Garcia Corporation, along with their bait casters, with an "ABU Garcia" side plate. No wonder there is a lot of confusion about the ABU & Garcia connection, right.  ::)

In 1965 ABU introduced the now famous Cardinal line, first the 6/66 & 7/77. The 4/44 came out in 1968 and the 3/33 came out in 1974.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on November 01, 2019, 11:28:10 AM
You're a dang walking encyclopedia Tommy.  Thanks.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: happyhooker on November 01, 2019, 12:54:15 PM
Great look at a seldom seen product & nice to have some idea of the history behind the companies too.

Frank


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Gfish on November 02, 2019, 02:34:50 PM
Great look and write-up for a very unique reel from Switzerland, Tommy.
Thanks also, for the Abu/ Record history.
Don't seem plausible, but could the AB Urfabriken company be the first ones to farm out their manufacturing of fishing equipment?



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 02, 2019, 05:16:07 PM
Possibly, but there was an awful lot of maneuvering and importing going on in those years shortly after WWII. 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Robert Janssen on November 03, 2019, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy

[... A.B means corporation and Urfabriken means watch factory...

Yeah...

Here is one of them. Normally it would bear the name Halda on the watch dial, but not all do. This one bears the hallmark of the maker HH on the inside lid, for Henning Hammarlund, founder of the company.

Here is a little project I've been working on, with a pocketwatch movement from IWC and a dial gifted to me by the curator of the ABU museum some years ago.

Recently edited for updated pics of the finished watch)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on November 03, 2019, 07:31:18 AM
Thanks for sharing that, Robert!

What an honor to receive a gift such as that...

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 03, 2019, 10:45:10 AM
Thanks for sharing that, Robert!

What an honor to receive a gift such as that...

Best,

Fred

X2, Robert! What a cool gift and keepsake!  8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on November 03, 2019, 01:39:04 PM
Very nice.  Is that a piece of phenolic resin and fiberglass tube?  Like used to make a tobacco rod.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on November 03, 2019, 02:03:20 PM
That IS pretty neat !


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on November 03, 2019, 04:55:55 PM
VERY COOL!!!

when I was about 8, Dad taught me to dis&RE!-assemble pocket watches & men's wristwatches
(facial muscles weren't yet strong enough to hold Dad's no-hands loupes, so I never tried a little ladies' watch)

NO WAY, could I do that now, but I guess there's enough comfort zone left to not mind Baitrunners & such  ;)



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Robert Janssen on November 03, 2019, 08:45:33 PM
Yes, Steve. Linen phenolic, commonly referred to as Micarta. Turned from solid bar stock and polished. Very pleasing to the eye i like to think, and i wanted to make a very unique piece.
Just a few details left, like the hands and winding crown. It also has a glass back, so you can see the watch movement inside.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on November 04, 2019, 05:07:20 AM
It also has a glass back, so you can see the watch movement inside.

   You always post such interesting items Robert...thanks for sharing. 8)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Donnyboat on November 04, 2019, 06:47:29 AM
Thanks Tommy for your great tutorial on the record reel, & your wealth of knowledge, very interesting.
      gee Robert, never been game enough to even open a watch, very interesting, thanks.
 Jal thats a nice angler reel, never seen one before, & welcome, from sunny Western Australia, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on November 04, 2019, 09:44:14 AM
It also has a glass back, so you can see the watch movement inside.

   You always post such interesting items Robert...thanks for sharing. 8)

Yup! He sure does Mike, it is always amazing to me.

Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Shark Hunter on November 06, 2019, 11:35:24 PM
Thanks for that Tutorial on the Recordette Tommy. Amazing!
Very Cool Watch Robert. I am in Awe. :o


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 28, 2019, 09:39:44 PM
I was fortunate enough a couple of weeks ago to pick up a cool, and extremely rare, Spool=Change Spinning Spool from the early 1950s. The reel was made in Germany exclusively for the Spool Change Co of Chicago, IL.

Here's an August 1954 Popular Mechanics article about the reel.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_29_11_19_11_58_08_30705942.jpeg)

I did my usual total disassembly, soaked the unpainted metal parts in lacquer thinner and cleaned the painted stand/foot and aluminum spool with Original White Goop and washed them with Dawn and warm water. This reel doesn't have many parts and was easy to take apart.  :) Here are the cleaned parts (3 of which I ad-libbed) ready to put back together.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_25_30693907.jpeg)

First I'll install the line guide mechanism onto the arm. The line will ride against the post and go through the plated wire guide. The post and nut retain the wire guide. The grooves in the arm keep the wire guide from moving.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_27_306941217.jpeg)

Next I'll install the arm onto the stand/foot. Once installed the arm will pivot on the stand/foot. Tension is maintained by a detent ball and spring. There is a hole on the stand for the spring and grooves in the sides for the ball to slide down against the spring. If you look closely, although it's dark, you can see them. The notches in the plate on the arm hold the arm in the casting, and then reeling, positions. The arm pivots on the retaining screw.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_29_30695991.jpeg)

The arm is connected to the stand/foot and it's time to install the spool and crank/handle. Here's where I ad-libbed. The reel doesn't have  any drag washers, the drag is the spool friction against the arm and handle. I decided to make a couple of crude drag washers. I put the teflon washer under the spool, a mylar washer above the spool and a rubber tension washer between the mylar washer and crank/handle. Drag tension is adjusted with the nut on the crank/handle.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_31_306961540.jpeg)

That's it, pretty simple and it's all put together. Here are a couple of photos of it in the reeling position.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_32_30696654.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_34_306982496.jpeg)

Pivot the arm up and it's ready to cast or release line similar to an open face spinner. I'll bet it doesn't cast very well, though, given the depth and narrowness of the spool flanges.  ::)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_35_306992380.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_36_30700445.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_42_30703460.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_40_307022276.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17004_28_11_19_9_30_39_30701858.jpeg)

Flip the arm down and it's ready to reel in line.

A unique, cool and rare reel from the early innovative days of US spin fishing.
 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mhc on November 29, 2019, 05:20:27 AM
Interesting reel Tommy, the foot looks threaded and appears to be connected to the rod with a pair of clamping nuts of some sort - deckhand style without a reel seat on the rod?

Mike


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on November 29, 2019, 06:12:47 AM
That is a first time see for me, Tommy -- Thanks!

Really shows how simple an open face spinning reel can be.

Best, Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mo65 on November 29, 2019, 06:13:38 AM
   That one is an odd duck indeed...nice restoration Tommy!


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Alto Mare on November 29, 2019, 07:44:24 AM
Thanks for sharing Tom, nice reel with very little parts.


Sal


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 29, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
Interesting reel Tommy, the foot looks threaded and appears to be connected to the rod with a pair of clamping nuts of some sort - deckhand style without a reel seat on the rod?

Mike

Mike,

It's the early style spinning rod with a cork handle and metal slip rings. Nowadays they call them a Tennessee style grip, although some guys don't use rings, they just secure the reel foot to the handle with electrical tape. That's the only type of handle I'll use for freshwater fishing but I use rings. Tennessee style makes it easy to position the reel for perfect balance.   


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on November 29, 2019, 12:33:07 PM
That's pretty cool and I don't mean to be picky Tommy, but wouldn't that be considered a sidecast reel instead of a spinning reel?
https://australianfishingmuseum.com/sidecast-fishing-reels/ (https://australianfishingmuseum.com/sidecast-fishing-reels/)
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 29, 2019, 01:39:56 PM
That's pretty cool and I don't mean to be picky Tommy, but wouldn't that be considered a sidecast reel instead of a spinning reel?
https://australianfishingmuseum.com/sidecast-fishing-reels/ (https://australianfishingmuseum.com/sidecast-fishing-reels/)
-steve

I don't know, Steve.  ??? 

Most pivot foot sidecasters I'm familiar with, albeit modified, are also considered a spinning reel because the line leaves from the face of the spool without the spool spinning. IMHO there's some difference between what was once known just as "fixed spools" and what is now referred to as "spinning reels".

A true sidecaster, in my mind, would be like the Johnson Model 80 (https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0212/04/johnson-model-80-side-cast-fishing_1_42a5274e6fe9c4425242135851f84d90.jpg) or the Wright & McGill Fre-Line (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6O4AAOSwi49bJvFf/s-l1600.jpg) because the foot doesn't pivot and, also, this definition.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H9yNaVOYU).    ;D


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on November 29, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
Most pivot foot sidecasters I'm familiar with, albeit modified, are also considered a spinning reel because the line leaves from the face of the spool without the spool spinning. IMHO there's some difference between what was once known just as "fixed spools" and what is now referred to as "spinning reels".

A true sidecaster, in my mind, would be like the Johnson Model 80 (https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0212/04/johnson-model-80-side-cast-fishing_1_42a5274e6fe9c4425242135851f84d90.jpg) or the Wright & McGill Fre-Line (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6O4AAOSwi49bJvFf/s-l1600.jpg) because the foot doesn't pivot and, also, this definition.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2H9yNaVOYU).    ;D

I'd call the Johnson and Wright-McGill sidewinders and the pivoting stuff like Alvey, Malloch and your Spool-Change side casters.  All side casters have the same idea and all have the same disadvantage.  The line twists as it is cast off the spool, but the twists are not removed as line is wound back onto the reel so the twists accumulate over time.  Alvey pretended that all you need is a swivel to get the twists out of the line, but that is not really a satisfactory solution.  

Spinning reels and spincast reel (including the sidewinders) remove the twists (or, really, reverse the twists) as they wrap line back onto the spool.  So, twists do not accumulate.

I've seen pitchers of other mid-century pivoting sidecast reel like the Colgrove, Mar-Vel, Karge & Son and at least one I can't remember.
-steve



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on November 29, 2019, 10:33:46 PM
There were a few similarly designed pivoting reels including the Flo-Line, Dragonfly, etc. Heck, Colgrove called his reel a spinning reel. (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwijwMv2pZHmAhVI1qwKHdSHAgMQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpicclick.com%2FRare-Colgrove-Spinning-Reel-In-Original-Box-Excellent-232821204288.html&psig=AOvVaw16rPIXEwz-dkMjJvrBojvr&ust=1575180263197906)    :)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on November 30, 2019, 01:51:11 AM

always thought it was the vague resemblance to a spinning wheel (spool = wheel; roller = bobbin):

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spinning+wheel&qpvt=spinning+wheel&FORM=IGRE

if that's so, the analogy breaks down without  some contraption bringing line in from the side


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Crow on November 30, 2019, 06:31:34 AM
Neat reel ! And a great job, too !


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 27, 2019, 06:23:50 PM
Beautiful collectible. Never seen one of these. The concept is used all over the world.

Alvey in Australia used that concept for every reel from small to big game. They have a interesting stand that allows for the reel to be turned 90 degrees. Been in use in Australia since the 1940's, maybe even earlier.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on December 27, 2019, 07:42:10 PM
Another side cast reel.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on December 27, 2019, 11:28:16 PM
Another side cast reel.
-steve

Huh?  ??? It doesn't cast line from the side. It casts line straight ahead from the face of spool just like any threadline, or as they're called today, open face spinning reel. Then you pivot the spool to reel in line like a single action, or multiplying, fly reel rather than it having a rotating and oscillating spool.   ;)   Whoever originally deemed them as side casters must have tipped one or two too many on night in the Pub.  ;D

Alveys, etc., are kind of cool and interesting reels but they've sure never gained a following in the US.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: mhc on December 28, 2019, 02:14:30 AM
Sorry to disagree Tommy, but I'm with Steve on this one - the term sidecast (over here at least) refers to reels that are turned sideways to cast and then returned to the 'in line' position to fish / retrieve by winding the line directly on to the spool. To me spinning reels have a fixed spool with the bail 'spinning' around the spool to lay the line. Having said that - It doesn't really matter what we call it, the Spool Change Co called it a spinning reel and it's a cool reel.  :)

Alvey in Australia used that concept for every reel from small to big game. They have a interesting stand that allows for the reel to be turned 90 degrees. Been in use in Australia since the 1940's, maybe even earlier.

I had a quick look at their web site Mike https://alvey.com.au/ (https://alvey.com.au/) - looks like they started in 1920 and are still going strong here after they talked about closing a few years ago.

Mike


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on December 28, 2019, 03:46:45 AM
It's a classic reel and I'm glad your guys started buying them again so Alvey could stay in business.

What they are called is probably irrelevant.  But, having a rotor going around a fixed spool makes life much easier.  

For both spinning reels and side cast reels, when the line is cast the line twists a full 360 degrees for every loop coming off the spool.  The smaller the spool diameter the more twists there will be per yard of line.

When a rotor wraps line back onto a fixed spool the twists are reversed.  The line is twisted on the cast and then untwisted on the retrieve.

When the sidecast spool is rotated and the line is wound on like a conventional reel, no twist is imparted.  The line is twisted in the cast but it is not untwisted on the retrieve.  With each successive cast more twists are added and they accumulate.  

If you have ever had a line get really badly twisted while trolling a spoon or bait that wants to spin you will know what a mess it makes.  Any bit of slack line will automatically roll up on itself and make a birds nest.  A swivel in the terminal tackle or a live bait that spins may allow the line to untwist a bit on the retrieve, but it is still going to be a mess.  Dealing with the line twists is a big part of mastering a side cast reel.

It should be mentioned that when line is pulled off a spinning reel via the drag the spool turns so there are no twists imparted as line goes out but it still twisted by the rotor as it is retrieved.
 
Then, too, there is the whole issue of gear ratio and inches per turn (IPT) on the retrieve.  A spinning reel with relatively small diameter spool can bump up the IPT using multiplying gears.   A side cast reel has a 1:1 gear ratio.  The Alvey needs a large diameter spool to bump up the IPT.  The IPT = spool diameter x gear ratio x 3.14.

Mike in Australia... I'm sure it has occurred to you that you could easily make a sidecast reel completely from scratch.
-steve



Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Sharkb8 on December 28, 2019, 03:42:13 PM
Yes Steve line twist is a problem I usely run two swivels before the Trace it helps a bit and the larger spool dia.helps with line retrive they have also make ones with gear ratios now.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on December 28, 2019, 04:54:04 PM
what's the other brand...  about as old, or older than Alvey & long gone?

mostly, Bakelite spools w/ big line guides, like the oldest Alvey on the left

I'm thinking 2 short words...  maybe, hyphenated...  maybe, [something] Lite


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on December 28, 2019, 06:35:31 PM
Sorry to disagree Tommy, but I'm with Steve on this one - the term sidecast (over here at least) refers to reels that are turned sideways to cast and then returned to the 'in line' position to fish / retrieve by winding the line directly on to the spool. To me spinning reels have a fixed spool with the bail 'spinning' around the spool to lay the line. Having said that - It doesn't really matter what we call it, the Spool Change Co called it a spinning reel and it's a cool reel.  :)

Alvey in Australia used that concept for every reel from small to big game. They have a interesting stand that allows for the reel to be turned 90 degrees. Been in use in Australia since the 1940's, maybe even earlier.

I had a quick look at their web site Mike https://alvey.com.au/ (https://alvey.com.au/) - looks like they started in 1920 and are still going strong here after they talked about closing a few years ago.

Mike

Yes, I know. I'm just being ornery and obstinate  :D  ...... and..... I like giving Steve a little crap once in awhile.  ;D

Seriously, though, I really don't understand why they started calling them side-casters, they should have originally been called pivot foot reels.

Malloch, Farlow and a few others came up with the pivot foot "side-cast" idea, in the 1880s, decades before Alvey was even a gleam in anyone's eye.

Malloch, Farlow, Hardy Match Fisher, Lou Meyers Flo-Line, and a host of others had reel designs so that the spool could be flipped around/over to get rid of line twist. For many it was a simple task that didn't have an effect on drag settings, just loosen a nut and flip the spool over.

There are a few open face spinning reels, though, where the spool rotates and a PUM guides the line on rather than having a non-rotating spool with a rotor and bail wrapping line around the spool. Most of them don't have large line capacities, though

 


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: richard on December 28, 2019, 08:12:54 PM
I seem to remember a version that you could flip the spool over so the line came off the other face as you cast out .
This reversed the line twist as described already ,and evened it out.
The handles were able to slide through the spool without fouling the backplate , and appeared on the other side so you could reel in no problem ?
You would cast three or four times ,then just as the twist was getting bad ,flip the spool over and reverse the twist  with the same ammount of casts
All the time retrieving the line like a fly reel .


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on December 28, 2019, 09:35:45 PM
Seriously, though, I really don't understand why they started calling them side-casters, they should have originally been called pivot foot reels.  
Yeah, that would make more sense.

Funny, because things like the Cuban YoYo and the Coke Bottle reel (sorry, you'll have to google them) do not accumulate line twists.  When you cast (or swing the bait around over your head and fling it), it makes twists as the loops come off the spool (or Coke bottle) just like a sidecast or spinning reel.  Then, when you wind the line back on the spool with the line slipping through your fingers, your hand acts just like the rotor on a spinning reel.  You unwhittingly undo those twists put in the line while casting.
-steve


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Sharkb8 on December 28, 2019, 10:37:23 PM
Philaroman some of the reel companies who made side cast reels was Alpha and steallite. The older ones we're wooden spools like in the picture above.

Kim


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on December 29, 2019, 12:01:08 AM
thanks, I was thinking of steallite (SteeLite?)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 29, 2019, 09:17:38 AM
I only have a slight knowledge about Alvey and that knowledge came from Ray Hodges. He would send me example of them from time to time. Ray sent me a promotional video from the company that is over an hour long explaining how Alvey reels are in used all the different styles of fishing. From bank fishing in rivers, to surf fishing, to big game fishing and any style in between. It is amazing how they have stood the test of time and crossed so many different styles of fishing with one simply concept.

Here is a small Alvey sent to me by Ray Hodges. The spool is Bakelite and the frame is stainless steel. I do not know how old it is.

Very happy to see the amount of discussion this has caused.





Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: foakes on December 29, 2019, 10:25:39 AM
These Alvey reels are a perfect example of the truth that a reel is just a mechanism to retrieve and store line as a fish is landed.

Simple, solid, proven.

Basic and competent.

Best,

Fred


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: philaroman on December 29, 2019, 11:30:04 AM
I have the all-steel 50's(?) Olympic big no-frills (300m?) & 100m w/ tension adjustment (for clicker?) & both, 1:1 & geared 2:1


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 29, 2019, 10:31:25 PM
Since we are here throwing around obscure spinning reels, a member over on the Vintage Penn Reels Facebook page put a post up asking if anyone could identify this spinning reel. There is no response, does anyone here have any idea who may have made this reel? It looks like it is built like a tank.

The owner did say it is a large reel, like the size of a Penn 950SS.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Midway Tommy on December 30, 2019, 11:56:06 AM
Mike,

Better photos and any possible markings that might give a hint to country of origin would sure help. It looks like a full bail, and if so would put it post '52. My first thought was PMR by A.M.R if it has any French evidence. A.M.R made a lot of reels for a lot of different distributors, many of which were big & clunky.


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: oc1 on December 30, 2019, 12:23:14 PM
I saw that protrusion out of the rear end and thought it had to be a Centaure or Sagarra.  Can't match it with any photos though.
-steve

(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/major6.jpg)


Title: Re: Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --
Post by: Penn Chronology on December 30, 2019, 11:18:35 PM
I know this is tough. If the reel were mine I would add more photo but I am just trying to help someone on Facebook ID his reel. All thoughts and speculation are appreciated.