Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Spinning Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Abu Garcia/Garcia/Mitchell => Abu-Garcia => Topic started by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 12:07:56 AM

Title: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 12:07:56 AM
Any info on this reel would have appreciated. It's my dad's he doesn't remember much about it.

Though I remember some nice channel cats caught with it using very thin line....Jeff
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: foakes on September 18, 2017, 12:38:25 AM
This is a fairly rare reel --

Only made for 3 or 4 years --

Sweden.

Cooperative effort between Charles Garcia and ABU.

Mid 50's.

Tommy will know more than I about these.

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 02:02:59 AM
Fred, thanks for your reply.
I was thinking there might not be many around. I remember looking into a few years back & the reel hand that looked at didn't say much but was interested in buying it. The outside of the reel was in much better shape at the time. My Grandpa had 2 of them....Jeff
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Tightlines667 on September 18, 2017, 02:56:50 AM
Jeff,

Take a look around this site...

http://www.reelstown.com/abu.htm

If you haven't already done so.

From what I can clean, yours is one of the later versions of the model444 made only for the US market ca. 1964.  It has the hammered black paint finish which was considered the most durable.  There was only 1 later version (1968) of the 444 made for the US market (plastisiced finish, cream rotor w/non cone rolle guide).  It's limited production run, should make it valuable to collectors, espe islly tbose interested in early US release Abu spinners.

John

Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 18, 2017, 04:26:57 AM
The ABU Garcia is the same exact reel as the ABU 444 and was manufactured exclusively for the US market and sold through the Garcia Corp. The ABU 444 was sold in Europe and elsewhere. The ABU Garcia was introduced in about 1955/6 and was sold, in various color configurations, through the mid 1960s. The reel pictured above appears to be the pearl blue color and one of the earlier ones sold. A later pearl blue would have a black spool with Sweden on the back. The first release was gray and later ones, toward the end, had black bodies with cream rotors. Some of the cream rotors are gloss and some are a matte, almost flocked, type finish.

They are collectible but not high dollar unless they are in mint or new condition with the box. The reel pictured would probably go for somewhere between $40 & $70 on eBay, depending on the day and how many are interested.

I'm holding my ultra rare black & cream ABU Garcia tournament reel with two tiered tournament spool from 1964, one of only two ABU Garcia "tournaments" known in existence, in my avatar.     
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
Tommy & John, Thanks. 

As a kid, a child actually, I ran around with nothing but spinners. Around 10-12 years of age I began a life long search for a better stronger reel. Since that time I've pretty much kicked spinning reels to the curb. However through you all, along with Fred I've got a renewed interest in spinning reels.

Tommy, is there any way to adjust the bail lay ? The line roller & bail lays tilted forward & down just a bit.

             
I am surprised at the amount of drag this reel puts out withsuch a small drag stack. Doing so so without stressing or loading the gears. 
For a light weight spinner I like this more compact design vs the newer skirted spools with wide rotor assembly. Even with its associated issues.

If any one knows of a parts reel please let me know. Reel is just fine now but I plan on using it...Jeff
                             
                                                                                                           
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 18, 2017, 04:24:09 PM
Jeff,

The only adjustment to bail lay on those reels is to bend the bail attachment tab on the bail plate forward or back and/or adjusting the angle/bend in the bail after the taper. It's a little difficult to tell from the pics but it looks like your bail plate may already be at a slight angle. Be very careful if you adjust that tab. It appears your bail is bent somewhat down so there's room for adjustment after the taper/solder area. Stabilize that joint area when you bend the bail.

The larger spool diameter helps reduce line twist and when you actually compare the overall outside rotor diameters of skirted and non-skirted reels of similar size categories there's really not that much difference. It just appears, at first glance, that the skirted is smaller because the spool diameter is smaller.  

Those fulcrum brake designs are possibly one of, if not, the most efficient spinning reel drag systems ever manufactured. It is so much more efficient to regulate drag pressure on the main shaft than through pressure inside and on a spool, and the fulcrum aspect just adds one more benefit to that type adjustment.

Parts are difficult to find for those reels, but there really isn't much that goes wrong with them. Yours has the metal oscillation block. The later versions have a nylon block. About the only other item that gets much wear, unless something gets broken, is the drag washer. Watch eBay for a parts reel, but they still bring around $30 +. That handle configuration is impossible to find a replacement for.      
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Tightlines667 on September 18, 2017, 04:59:24 PM
In some ways that drag mechanism appears to be a better overall design then the later Cardinal versions.  It is simpler, and acts directly in line with the spool shaft, which is supported adjacent to the stack.  I wonder why they changed it?
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 18, 2017, 05:37:23 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 18, 2017, 04:59:24 PM
In some ways that drag mechanism appears to be a better overall design then the later Cardinal versions.  It is simpler, and acts directly in line with the spool shaft, which is supported adjacent to the stack.  I wonder why they changed it?

It isn't better. It was the forerunner. They greatly improved the overall quality of the reel in the cardinal line by removing the oscillation block and adding the oscillation arm, adding the worm gear pinion and also moving the anti-reverse from the main gear to the linear teeth on the pinion worm gear. These older models' drags work against the block at the rear of the body. The stack is, the block, a rectangular micarta washer, SS click gear, rectangular micarta washer, drag arm. The drag on these reels was a great improvement over the front drag designs but relocating it toward the center of the body because of the oscillation change allowed a much more efficient overall configuration, including the ultimate function of the worm gear drive-train.

On a different note, here's what the reel looks like in cleaned parts ready for reassembly:

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_10_31_22_218901615.jpeg)     
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Tightlines667 on September 18, 2017, 06:22:43 PM
Tommy,

Thanks for the explanation! 

I had to go back and reread Alan Hawk's review of the Cardinal to remind me why the design is so great.

http://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/suv4.html


Jeff,
I apologize for any confusion regarding your real's version/.ca. production dates.  Your reel was, as Alan stated mid 1950s, not 1960s.  For some reason, I was thinking the pearl blue was black.

John
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 07:11:55 PM
No worries at all John....Jeff
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: happyhooker on September 18, 2017, 09:40:17 PM
Aw, come on Tommy, you can't tease us about the black & cream Abu tournament without posting a pic!  Or, am I off on what an "avatar" is?
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 10:28:57 PM
Ya I'm wanting to see a better detailed pic myself...Jeff
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 19, 2017, 04:46:42 AM
OK! OK!  :)

Here are three photos at different angles. They also include an extra two tiered spool. The spools are magnesium and near impossible to find. I was very fortunate to end up with two. The reel has a two pickup tree. The line pickup/roller guide positions are adjustable. The bail plate & tree can be cocked back out of the way just like a standard bail model.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_03_09_21911858.jpeg)  
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_03_06_21909213.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_03_07_21910405.jpeg)

Here are a couple of photos of the inner workings of the tournament reel next to a standard bail type model. They were taken before the reels were cleaned and serviced. I think they both still had the original factory grease. The tournament reel is on the right. There are a couple of major differences inside on these two reels, but notice the oscillation block on these reels has been changed to nylon rather than the early version metal blocks. Also, you can see in the third photo that the main shaft of the tournament reel is longer to accommodate the two tiered spool. The main gears are also different and I'll show and explain the differences in the next set of photos.  

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_04_12_21914638.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_04_09_219131940.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_04_08_21912828.jpeg)

This photo shows a comparison of the main parts and their major differences. At the bottom you can see the difference in the length of the main shafts. A very interesting attribute of the tournament reel is that it does not have a standard anti-reverse. The main gear on the right has teeth that are square on one side and slope on the back side so that when the anti-reverse is engaged the dog slides over the teeth. That's what gives the clicking sound when engaged, and when you try to reel backwards the dog wedges against the square side of the tooth. Notice that the gear on the left has teeth that are square on both sides. Also, close inspection of the two anti-reverse dogs shows that the dog on the left has a block added to the side on the end. In tournament casting the slightest movement of the rotor while casting can make a huge difference in accuracy. The anti-reverse on an ABU tournament reel, when engaged, wedges the dog between the teeth on the main gear and locks the rotor so that it can not be turned forward or backward. The rotor stays completely stationary as the line peels off the spool. Disengage the anti-reverse lever and the handle can be turned in either direction.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_01_47_219082146.jpeg)

The two tiered magnesium spool is two piece and has an extension added to the release button. It is held together on the back side by four screws.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_18_09_17_8_07_13_21916117.jpeg)

ABU never made their tournament reels available to the public. The ABU 444 and ABU Garcia are the exact same reel, save for the side plate/name. ABU produced 20-30 ABU 444 tournament reels for their European team casters. As of today there are only two known ABU Garcia tournament reels in existence. Fittingly, both are in the USA.                  



Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: FatTuna on September 19, 2017, 05:02:07 AM
That first reel is crazy. I've never seen anything like it. How does it work?
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 19, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
Quote from: FatTuna on September 19, 2017, 05:02:07 AM
That first reel is crazy. I've never seen anything like it. How does it work?

The spool is long and tapered to achieve more distance in tournament casting. Distance spinning competition is done with a 5/8 ounce casting plug. The minimum allowable line diameter is 10/1000 inch (.01), basically ultra fine thread. As an example, 2# Silver Thread is 125/1000 (.125). The line used is so light and thin that a heavier "shock" leader is used so that the casting weight doesn't break the line at the release. After the cast is made the competitor and an official walk to the spot where the casting weight landed to measure the distance. The competitor reels line as they walk because the line will break if there is any drag resistance from the ground. The adjustable line pickups are set to evenly lay line on each tier of the spool so that the least resistance and maximum casting distance can be achieved. Minimum resistance is also important in accuracy competition, so the same type of reel/spool can be used in accuracy events. During the walk and retrieve, when one tier of the spool has reached it's optimum line fill, the line is manually moved to the other pickup to fill that tier. Casting is not unlike any PUM cast, manually lay the line on your index finger and "fling" away.  :D       
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: happyhooker on September 19, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
Tommy, you have totally outdone yourself.  Your reel pics & explanations may be the most interesting thing I've read about reels in awhile.

I notice, now, that your picture on your posts shows you holding what appears to be this reel.

Frank
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 19, 2017, 10:58:57 PM
Quote from: happyhooker on September 19, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
Tommy, you have totally outdone yourself.  Your reel pics & explanations may be the most interesting thing I've read about reels in awhile.

I notice, now, that your picture on your posts shows you holding what appears to be this reel.

Frank

Well, thank you, Frank! I've got a few different versions of those pre-Cardinals that I may put together for a group photo. 
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 20, 2017, 12:24:24 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 19, 2017, 10:58:57 PM
Quote from: happyhooker on September 19, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
Tommy, you have totally outdone yourself.  Your reel pics & explanations may be the most interesting thing I've read about reels in awhile.

I notice, now, that your picture on your posts shows you holding what appears to be this reel.

Frank

Well, thank you, Frank! I've got a few different versions of those pre-Cardinals that I may put together for a group photo. 
I'm impaitently waiting for this
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2017, 04:56:39 AM

[/quote] Well, thank you, Frank! I've got a few different versions of those pre-Cardinals that I may put together for a group photo. 
[/quote]
I'm impaitently waiting for this
[/quote]

Bottom row from left to right: ABU 444 Pearl Blue 3rd Version 1956, ABU Garcia Pearl Blue 1st version 1956, ABU Garcia Black w/ Tan cup 3rd version Tournament 1964, ABU Garcia Pearl Blue 1st version 1956, ABU Garcia Black w/ Tan cup 3rd version 1959.
Top row from left to right: ABU 444 Black w/ Tan cup 5th version 1958, ABU 444-A Green w/ Cream cup 1st version 1966, ABU 444-A Green w/ Cream cup 2nd version 1971, ABU 333 Dark Gray Hammertone w/ Light Gray Hammertone cup 1967.

(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/17004_19_09_17_9_21_45_21923721.jpeg)
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Rivverrat on September 20, 2017, 05:03:35 AM
Wow ! Thanks for posting this....Jeff
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Tightlines667 on September 20, 2017, 05:29:26 AM
Wow!

That is an impressive grouping there.  Your own personal museum.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: foakes on September 20, 2017, 05:31:10 AM
Impressive collection, Tommy

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2017, 02:48:53 PM
Thanks, guys! I love older ABU made spinners!
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: happyhooker on September 21, 2017, 01:28:45 AM
Ditto, what Monsieur Tightlines666 said!

Frank
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: oc1 on September 21, 2017, 08:51:07 AM
How long you been doing this Tommy?  Your level of depth and detail is always impressive.
-steve
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 21, 2017, 05:31:42 PM
Quote from: oc1 on September 21, 2017, 08:51:07 AM
How long you been doing this Tommy?  Your level of depth and detail is always impressive.
-steve

Sometimes it seems like forever.  ;) Seriously, ,though, for about 20 years via the www. I still have my 1st open face, a G M 304, that I got in the mid '60s. I broke the main gear handle shaft off in '70 & bought a new Cardinal 6 and have been accumulating Cardinals ever since. Expanded my user arsenal quite a bit in the late '70s - early '80s and dove into the serious collecting side of them in the mid/late '90s. Luckily I had the best spinning reel mentor out there, who also ended up being a good friend, Ben Wright. Ben unselfishly tutored me and shared so much information it is almost mind boggling. I owe him a lot for the knowledge he shared, but I also read and do a lot of research, too.   
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: foakes on September 21, 2017, 06:02:07 PM
Tommy --

Do you need a new gear handle shaft, or handle for that old Mitchell 304?

If so, I will send them out.

N/C.

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 21, 2017, 07:58:53 PM
Quote from: foakes on September 21, 2017, 06:02:07 PM
Tommy --

Do you need a new gear handle shaft, or handle for that old Mitchell 304?

If so, I will send them out.

N/C.

Best,

Fred

No, but thank you very  much, Fred!

A few years back I saw one on the 'Bay for a couple bucks & practically no shipping so I nabbed it & fixed that little sucker. Believe it or not I've got it on an old fiberglass Wonderod with the old braided nylon 12# test spinning line on it so when I feel nostalgic I take it out for eater channel cat creek fishing. Drop the bait about 24 - 30" deep from a 3/4" r&w bobber, cast it out up stream into the current and let it float down along the opposite bank keeping a fairly tight line, similar to trout fly fishing. Those cats are back under the ledges and in holes along the bank. It's a killer system! Been doing it for 50 years. I love creek fishing clean water NE creeks for catfish that way!

Thanks for the offer, Fred! 
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Jim Fujitani on September 22, 2017, 03:06:32 PM
My first spinning reel was also a GM 304 design, but I seem to recall it being called a GM "CAP".  It was a hand-me-down reel, with a hand-me-down rod, a light green Shakespeare Wonderod, in the late 50's early 60's. 

I looked for the rod and reel when my mom and dad moved, and when my dad passed.  I couldn't find it.  I figure that it got handed down in the late 70's early 80's, when my dad started taking my nephew trout fishing.
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: oc1 on September 22, 2017, 06:58:50 PM
My first spinning reel was also a 304.  That would have been about '63.  I was saving up for a 300 but became impatient and bought the 304 because it was a few bucks less.  I have no recollection of what happened to it.  Picked up another 304 a year ago because they are now cheap as chips and nostalgic.  After fooling around with ultralite spinners the 304 seems enormous, especially the spool.  Funny, because most things from our childhood seem smaller when revisited later.
-steve
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Midway Tommy on September 22, 2017, 07:22:27 PM
Yeah, the rotor does seem a little big, but interestingly enough, they are still pretty light, all things considered. I grab one now and it almost feels like a toy.   
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: happyhooker on September 22, 2017, 09:18:26 PM
Mighta figured; Ben Wright; (don't/didn't know him, but have heard of him), that you, Tommy, & him would be bros.

Frank
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: Kalle on December 24, 2017, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 18, 2017, 12:07:56 AM
Any info on this reel would have appreciated. It's my dad's he doesn't remember much about it.

Though I remember some nice channel cats caught with it using very thin line....Jeff

Hello here is some information about the man who invented the rear drag system for Abu 444 and older Cardinals, including patents I searched out, please scroll down, and this site gives also alot of information about the older ABU stuff, regards Kalle

http://www.realsreels.com/ABURecordreelmodelspatentdrawings.html
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: foakes on December 24, 2017, 06:17:47 PM
Welcome aboard Kalle from Estonia --

Introduce yourself to the site when you get a chance.

We would enjoy knowing about your country, and your fishing interests.

Best Regards,

Fred
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: oc1 on December 24, 2017, 07:22:12 PM
Were you and Nurmse related Kalle?
-steve
Title: Re: Older Abu Garcia Info Needed
Post by: happyhooker on December 26, 2017, 11:02:59 PM
Welcome, Kalle, from chilly (-13 degrees this AM) Minnesota.

You've dived in to one of the more interesting topics on this forum for the latter part of 2017.

Frank