I'm an arborist (tree guy) by trade and we take down a lot of big trees many times with things underneath that we can't damage. We use pulleys fiddle blocks etc to lower material and gain a mechanical advantage. One pass thru lessens the load by 50% making the job of the man on the end of the line much easier. I've always wondered if this could be applied to fishing using roller guides.
Here's a few pictures of what I was thinking. If there was a load of 50 at the end of the rod the load at the reel would be 25lbs. (the spool of line would be the reel). Does this make sense to anyone one? The guide design would need to be different and casting wouldn't be possible but cutting the load on the reel would have to be a good thing right?
Anyone ever seen this tried before?
Am I nuts?
Doesn't one of the pulleys need to move?
Like the idea!
Quote from: swill88 on November 26, 2017, 05:00:08 PM
Doesn't one of the pulleys need to move?
Yes.
The set up in the photo still is only "1 part of line" and this only adds more friction.
The line goes over the top 2 pulleys,back thru the top rod end pulley and out to the under the last pulley to the tip. These guides wouldn't work because the line rubs on the guide frames at a few points. Just to give a idea of how the pulley wheels could work. The top pulley at the rod tip end would bear most of the load. Would need a different design but was trying to show the principal involved. Or I'm just nuts?
By the way Lee hope you're feeling better
without one movable pulley, there is no "mechanical advantage"...all you are doing is "changing direction".....6" of line "in" = 6" of line "out".
Quote from: Swami805 on November 26, 2017, 05:26:33 PM
By the way Lee hope you're feeling better
Much better, still pain but no more blood.
Crow is correct but you are not crazy, look into what Edison had to say about "failure". And you should see my scrap tub full of "failures" that sometimes lead to useable parts.
That's the kind of thinking that can get results. I don't know enough about it to comment except to say it is good thinking if you can get it to work. What do you engineers on this site think? Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on November 26, 2017, 07:15:39 PM
That's the kind of thinking that can get results. I don't know enough about it to comment except to say it is good thinking if you can get it to work. What do you engineers on this site think? Dominick
This rigger says it is impossible for this to work as there is no mechanical advantage. Two or more parts of line need to move to get the mechanical advantage. Pull 1' with 2 parts of line and the load moves 6".
This might help some of the lawyers here.... ;D
https://sciencing.com/mechanical-advantage-block-tackle-6120885.html (https://sciencing.com/mechanical-advantage-block-tackle-6120885.html)
trhe force multiplication comes from the pull (force) moving more then the load. or in this case the line from the reel moving more then the bait In this case it doesnt happen so no mechanical advantage.
The same applies to gear ratio in reels-- the force distance traveled ( distance the handle knob moves) vs distance line to bait moves gives the gear ratio and thus mechanical advantage. You dont need to count teeth etc to figure it out just use tape measure.
Don't turn your back on the squirrels. ;D ;D
I use to rig towers. A stationary pulley will only re-direct a force. Adding movable pulleys (or blocks) multiplies the force. Sometimes we didn't have a winch available and would use the rental car to haul the load up a tower. One time I was working at a university radio station (600' tall) and did not have enough runway (200') to haul the load all the way up the tower so I had to triple-block the load line. That was a very tricky (touchy) set-up and I had to be extremely careful...granny gear power with highway gear speed.
-Mike
Thanks Rudy,We have some sneaky ones around here.
I'll have a look at some of the blocks at work. We also have one on the crane.
Thanks Lee that makes it clear as mud. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on November 26, 2017, 08:21:08 PM
Thanks Lee that makes it clear as mud. Dominick
Any time, you can return the favor by explaning current CA gun laws to me.
Lets me try again. Put a 3' bar on a fulcrum with 1' on the load side, push down a foot on the 2' side and the load moves up 6". You use 1/2 of the force to move the load due to mechanical advantage. Same for line travel, 2 parts of line gives you rougly 2:1. The rig in the photo only 1 part of line.
I don't believe Sheridan said anyplace in his post that this would work, ... more so he was trying to come up with a concept, that would apply to using a rod and reel, while giving some mechanical advantage.
Thinking out of the box so to speak!
If you have some idea's Id like to hear them as well as I too am interested.
I once owned a communications tower that telescoped up to 90' and retracted to 23'. The weight was around 3500/3750 lbs. For the up and down telescoping of the tower, there was a large drum winch driven by a sizable motor with a gear reduction. In addition it had a positive pull down arrangement.
For tilting the tower over it used a huge 2 speed boat winch with a series of pulleys. I always had to refer to the manual to rig it up and thought possibly it was overkill. That being said, I always went by the book and it worked like a champ, plus it was effortless! The gentleman that designed and built this tower was a farmer from the Midwest.
Some years later, I sold it and the guy that bought it questioned the pulley arrangement. He said it was totally unnecessary. They tried tilting it over using a different arrangement, ... the cable snapped and down it came. Looks like there's a lot to be said about a good pulley arrangement!
.......................Lou
So in essence one of the pulleys has to move in the direction of the pulling force for there to be an advantage. Is that correct? If the pulleys are stationary it is just re-directing the line?
Well I think I'll stick to trees. Sure looked good on paper though!
Yes but do not ever stop thinking, thinking outside the box can come up with useable ideas. And again, Edison was good at it and was also good at learning from failure.
If a way could be figured out how to mount a moveable pully on a rod it's retreve length limit would be less than rod length and would revert to 1:1 as soon as the pully hits it's stop.
don't know about fishing for really big stuff, but I love the heavy tug on my fishing line...the more the better
You know if there was a way to put a movable roller between the #52 and the #42 on some sort of an adjustable tension track, now that would be the ticket. It could be in tandem with the drag and give a little relief on a sharp run or a bad wave, sort of like a shock adsorber. Then again maybe I've had too many finish fumes this afternoon ;) I like the way your thinking Sheridan.
As I understand it - If you want to move 1ft of line at half the force you will need a moveable pulley that can move 2ft - 2:1 ratio. Once the pulley has reached the end of its travel (as it will) the mechanical leverage reverts to 1:1 ie no mechanical advantage just more complication and probable friction.
But don't let it stop you thinking differently. Many Eureka moments come from initial failure.
No your not nuts? Well maybe? ??? If a person had a small pulley with the lure/leader inbetween the rod tip and fastened the bitter end to the rod tip area in a loop, and let the line out the pulley/bait/lure would be at the end of this loop all the time, then you would have a mechanical advantage in my simple mind. Butt the twisteys in the line would add friction, im sure it would me a mess?
Butt I dunno? Interesting idea tho? :)
Yep that would work gstours (other than, as you say, the inevitable tangling.
But we already have a nice way of adding mechanical advantage, the gearing in our reels ;D
? tight lines :)
Quote from: Benni3 on November 28, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
? tight lines :)
A heavy duty conveyer belt tensioner, I worked on and around many.
Quote from: Keta on November 28, 2017, 02:35:11 PM
Quote from: Benni3 on November 28, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
? tight lines :)
A heavy duty conveyer belt tensioner, I worked on and around many.
not the best idea,,,,but I have seen springs
Quote from: Benni3 on November 28, 2017, 03:04:14 PM
Quote from: Keta on November 28, 2017, 02:35:11 PM
Quote from: Benni3 on November 28, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
? tight lines :)
A heavy duty conveyer belt tensioner, I worked on and around many.
not the best idea,,,,but I have seen springs
Yup but the counterweight ones work better for long belts.
Sheridan, I like your "out of the box" way of thinking. My take on this weaving around the rollers is yes, in theory it would work, but where is the weak link ??
As with any pulley that has a load pulling 180*, the strong point has to be the center pin, as that's where all the load is. I'm far from an engineer, but I did a lot of high mountain logging in old growth and I do have knowledge about pulleys and you have turned a few of the rollers into load bearing pulleys. The tiny screw that holds that pulley on the guide is not made to transfer the load 180*. This places the entire load onto the tiny screw that holds the pulley in place. The rollers on a rod are designed for a side load, not a full on 180* load. My guess is under extreme load you may possibly experience catastrophic failure of one of the pulley screws and say goodbye to the cow on the other end.
....of course that's just my logic, and not much at all to do with real world knowledge.
Ted
A fiddle block arrangement is what would be needed to get this to work & because of this being mounted on a rod I believe it would be very problemamtic. How ever being a fellow tree monkey myself & given to a thinking mind set.... I will never say never or it's impossible.
Are You Nutz ?
Well every time we enter a tree, suspended by a 7/16"-1/2" rope, with tools of mass destruction we run hard against sound logic & what some would call better judgement.....
Soooo ;D ;D ;D ....Jeff
Yes I think there is a genetic flaw somewhere that even allows you to consider doing it. Thankfully I don't climb anymore but I run the tree crews for the company. I can usually tell by the 2nd day whether a new hire will make it or not. Even the ones who really want to aren't able to turn off that self preservation switch that allows you to overcome that built in (that's a bad idea) gene. I've been very fortunate to not have anyone die or be seriously injured on my watch. I'm a stickler when it comes to safety and will ride an employee like a rented mule if I see unsafe practices. I'm sure Jeff knows what I'm talking about, how quickly things can go wrong and the consequences of 1 bad decision.
I just kept looking at roller guides and that what if question kept rattling around
Sheridan
Quote from: Swami805 on December 14, 2017, 08:45:46 PM
I just kept looking at roller guides and that what if question kept rattling around
Sheridan
Well this is a good place for those what if questions... Jeff