Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing Rods => Fishing Rods => Topic started by: pjstevko on December 30, 2017, 02:57:47 PM



Title: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: pjstevko on December 30, 2017, 02:57:47 PM
I was just wondering how spiral wrapping the guides on a rod affects casting distance....

I know it reduces torque on the reel but does it reduce casting distance?

Pj


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Captain64-200 on December 30, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
You mean mounting the rings in a spiral pattern ?  or  the carbonfiber wrapping ?


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: pjstevko on December 30, 2017, 04:29:41 PM
You mean mounting the rings in a spiral pattern ?  or  the carbonfiber wrapping ?

Wrapping the guides...


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Swami805 on December 30, 2017, 04:46:53 PM
Yes it does, more friction less distance. I know there's some big fans of spiral wraps on here and there is a benefit with the rod torquing to one side. The down side is casting distance is shortened.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: pjstevko on December 30, 2017, 04:50:11 PM
Yes it does, more friction less distance. I know there's some big fans of spiral wraps on here and there is a benefit with the rod torquing to one side. The down side is casting distance is shortened.

That's what I thought.....


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: MarkT on December 30, 2017, 04:58:37 PM
While there may be a little decrease in casting distance, itíll only be a few percent and you probably wouldnít notice any difference.  I have two acid wrapped rods... Seeker Black Steel 6480 and 6470.  Both wrapped by my brah J.AkuHed.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Rivverrat on December 30, 2017, 04:58:54 PM
If its done right you would need a tape measure to be able to tell any difference in casting distance. I mean are we talking casting sinkers or bait ?
If you use the rod as you would fish it there is little if any diff. If in fact there is any one way or the other. It is my belief that some blanks benefit from it more than others. Some blanks may see little to no benefit from being acid wrapped. I think how a blank is laid out on the mandrels when built plays a huge part in this.

I have one that Jon Vadney did for me, did it make a huge positive difference ? Probably not but there are no obvious negatives to it. So I will leave it as it is its a very unique beautiful rod. An acid wrapped rod in my mind comes into play when after big fish & using heavy drag. 20 or more pounds of drag for an extended time.

Word of warning for what ever reason this is one of those topics that some seem to have no issue going to war over. Not understood that myself.... Jeff



Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on December 30, 2017, 05:12:50 PM
About 6 of my rods are acid wrapped - the rest 'normal' - I really don't notice any diference in casting performance. BUT if I'm into something heavy (not often!) I prefer the acid wrapped. No torque on the wrist.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Swami805 on December 30, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
I built 2 about 30 years ago when I first learned the concept, I used them for casting swimbaits on 1/2-1 oz lead heads. Fished them for a few years and got used to them and they worked fine. But if your interest is in distance they just don't cast as far. Distance casting is about friction, less friction more distance.

You're right Jeff does tend to rile people up.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: MarkT on December 30, 2017, 05:46:35 PM
Iíve had people wonder if I had a 2-piece rod that was put together wrong. The Captain on the Excel gave me grief over my acid-wrapped G6470 too. Why is it called an acid wrap? Dude, were you on acid when you wrapped that rod? Yeah, it can be like that! OTOH, it can be easier to keep the line level on a conventional reel. If youíre right handed spiral to the left. The line will tend to move to the left on the retrieve so all you have to do is push it to the right with your thumb. It was an advantage when I caught a 270# YFT on Alanís rig that was acid wrapped.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Swami805 on December 30, 2017, 06:00:13 PM
And they're ya go, The proper equipment for the task and success was achieved.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Jeri on December 30, 2017, 10:53:44 PM
We did this experiment a couple of years ago with pure distance casting surf blanks. When measuring spiral wrapped against traditional, we could find no difference at all. The friction arguement doesn't hold water, if the two rods have exactly the same number of guides. In our tests, we were testing much heavier sinker combinations than small lure rods, and distances were measured over 450 feet or more.

Just our findings, though it was a short lived entity in our custom rod building, as shortly afterwards nearly 99% of our competition anglers changed over to braid and fixed spool reels.

Cheers from sunny Africa.

Jeri


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Swami805 on December 31, 2017, 06:09:30 AM
So how many distance casters switched to spiral wraps?
It's a decades old cocept that never caught on. Tournament bass guys don't use it hardly anyone one does but it crops up about every decade then just fades away. If it works for you great but for most it didn't and that's why you don't see it around much.


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on December 31, 2017, 09:10:07 AM
'Looks' sells tackle - spriral wrap looks 'wrong' to a lot of people. That equates to less sales for the big boys. Therefore the 'big boys' don't sell them.
IMHO spiral works fine, even on the rail. Each to his own :-\


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: MarkT on December 31, 2017, 09:39:36 AM
The only downside to acid rods is that they are difficult to bundle up when packing up to go because the guides get in way!


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Aiala on December 31, 2017, 11:05:46 AM
The mere thought (let alone sight) of an acid-wrapped rod causes my OCD to go supernova.  :o  ::)  :P

But of course, as the French say, "Chacun ŗ son goŻt".  :)

~A~


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Rivverrat on December 31, 2017, 01:34:59 PM
Oh man I had the hardest time looking at my rod while using it. But I eventually got over it


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on December 31, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
Oui mon brave :D


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Rivverrat on December 31, 2017, 05:28:54 PM
The only downside to acid rods is that they are difficult to bundle up when packing up to go because the guides get in way!

Ive noticed this my when I go to pick up a fistfull of my rods if my acid wrapped rod is in that fist full it doesnt work all that well.... Jeff


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: alantani on December 31, 2017, 08:10:30 PM
i have a bunch, but it works out ok. 


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Jeri on January 01, 2018, 01:51:35 AM
So how many distance casters switched to spiral wraps?
It's a decades old cocept that never caught on. Tournament bass guys don't use it hardly anyone one does but it crops up about every decade then just fades away. If it works for you great but for most it didn't and that's why you don't see it around much.

Quite a few people bought them, and were exceptionally happy with the performance of the rods, especially as they gained the benefit from loss of torque, and the fact that they didn't lose distance.

The whole issue is 'public perception', and have seen this in many concepts that have been formulated and brought to the market place, where if it doesn't meet with what the public percieves as appropriate, then it gets a negative review - which is usually based on fiction. Have seen this extensively with surf rods using braid as main line. The public perception is for big rings on a surf spinning/casting rod, so when Fuji brought out their Low Riders, the perception that small guides would not work or would reduce distance with braid. When in fact some very knowledgeable people proved that the smaller guides did work and actually offered a small increase in distance. The concept 'bombed' in most English speaking parts of the world, but has been whole heartedly accepted in many other places in the world.

It is all about perception. Personally, if I was using any rod with a multiplier type reel I would opt for acid wrapped.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: jurelometer on January 01, 2018, 01:12:14 PM
It is great to be in a safe space where we can have civil discussions about such highly controversial issues (1/2  :D  )

Regarding casting distance,  the guides serve two purposes.  First, they transfer the load to the rod when initiating the cast.   Having the guides rotate around the rod is a disadvantage here.  Second, as the cast is in progress,  guides reduce friction by  keeping the line from slapping against the blank.   But the line slapping into the guides also introduces friction.  So it is a balancing act to have the right number of guides with the right ring sizes the right distance from the blank with the right amount of spacing.  Spiral wrap is at a disadvantage here as well.  I guess it is possible  to minimize the disadvantage with careful design.  But it will be trickier to get right.   The heavier the object being cast, the less noticeable any difference from the guide orientation should be.


Regarding spiral wraps overall,  for the type of fishing I do,  they are a minor net-minus.

With a traditional wrap rod,  the guides tend to get less beat up/loosened/broken in an abusive environment.     Traditional wrap rods are easy to rest on  the deck with the guides up and will stay that way.  They are also easy to stow and remove from under-gunnel rod racks.   It is pretty much impossible to lay a acid/spiral wrapped rod on the deck without scraping the some of the guides.   The spiral transition guides catch on everything.  Try getting a spiral wrapped rod  out of a crowded gunnel rack in a hurry when you run up on a boil and have a serious case of the yips.

The point of a spiral wrap is to allow you to fish with a reel on the top of the rod without having to fight against radial (twisting)  load.   With a traditional setup,  as long as the guides are on the same plane as the line, the only radial load will be from misalignment in the spine, which should be pretty negligible.  However if the line is being pulled off-plane,  the force against of the side of the guides  will manifest as radial force, until the rod flips over.   With proper technique, and a sufficiently long foregrip,  you can use your forearm to brace against  this radial load.     I do not find this tiring with  traditional-guide setups using  up to 10 lbs of drag for long runs and  25 lbs for  short bursts.  But I don't do the big tuna thing with long runs at 30+ lbs drag and railing the rod.   I would suspect that  the spiral wrap advantage would be greatest here.   I would also think that there would be more issues with radial load  with a shorter and/or stiffer rod, but I am not as certain about this.


  I read a post somewhere extolling the virtues of spiral wrap for trolling with those long soft rods that are used with downriggers for salmon.   Not for playing the fish, but  for keeping the rod from flipping around in the rod holder  and the reel ending up underneath.
 


In summary,   spiral wrapping has advantages and disadvantages.  The main advantage is in situations where you need to do more work than you would like to to keep the rod from twisting.    The greater the load, the more likely that this benefit will be valuable.   The downside is in having guides sticking out  every-which way on your rod affecting durability and ease of use, and  a higher possibility  of building a rod that does not  cast as well as it could.

YMMV


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: richard on January 01, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
I think someone Dual? makes a two speed reel that you wind backwards for low gear.If you had one on a conventional ringed rod you could cast ,jig and fight smaller(low drag) fish in the normal way, rings and reel on top.As soon as you hook that monster Tuna you flip the rod over.You now have the reel and rings where you want them to avoid rod twist , and low gear (with the handle going forwards) not backwards.Sure its on the left now but that might even help if the right arm is already tired. A fairly narrow spool would help line lay ,but otherwise you lay the line like a fly reel.Something the size of an Hx Avet would cast and hold 80/100 lb braid.30 lb of drag would be comforting😀


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: Rivverrat on January 01, 2018, 06:06:09 PM
jurelometer,  good post.  I agree with everything you've stated. However the apparrent negatives based on logical thought dont seem play out when an acid wrap guide lay out is done right. I make no claims of understanding why this is because I dont. Just looking at a blank wrapped this way one has to think that there is no way it could cast as well as a standard wrapped rod. Only rods Ive seen that didnt had obvious guide spacing & lay out issues.

Like your self for my fishing on the river I dont believe I will gain much benefit from it.... Jeff


Title: Re: Do spiral wrapped rods cast differently?
Post by: droppedit on January 02, 2018, 04:11:21 PM
I've made a number of spiral wrapped rods over the years. All I can really say is those that use them love them. Up here in the NorthEast they are pretty popular on the head boats that jig for cod and pollack but it seems that each builder has their own theory on how to space and size the transition guides. I've seen some that have a #20 guide then drop down to a single #10 transition guide then have 5-6 #12's on the bottom, go figure. I'd think that would be way too radical and cause too much friction. After wrapping about 20 spiral rods I finally decided I'd see what the hype was about and did an 8' very slow action blank with Fuji Brlrg guides (seeing that these were on hand). I did the #20 then 2 #16's for the transition then 4 #12's. I tried spacing so I'd get the transition with the least amount of angle to keep the friction down. The big test was underhand casting a 10oz jig from the pulpit. I had a Progear 454 on it with about 50 feet of 50lb leader tied with a uni to uni to 50lb braid. I did get decent casts from it but I really wasn't that impressed. I guess I'm too much old school. I tore the rod down after the season and re-wrapped conventional and it is always my go to rod. I feel that I get more distance (maybe 15-25 feet) conventional. Does that make that much difference when you are fishing 250' down, not really but I do have fun aiming at seagulls.

Dave