Whenever I see a Phillips head screw, I reach for the nearest one and work the screw. Sometimes it skips and dings the screw. Is there a simple way to know which size Phillips head to use? Dominick
As easy as 00, 0, 1, 2, 3. You need to develop an eye for the size and use the right one.
Yep what Lee said.
Screw Dinger! ;)
Get a Chapman or Wiha set. It has all the sizes so you can overcome this wretched dinging.
The largest that will fit. With phillips tips, it should be fairly easy to tell, as there is a noticeable size difference. Ive seen a number of multi-driver ones (square and phillips drive) that dont seem to work as well with either.
What will get you is the asian style that looks like a phillips, but the profile is a bit different, so they strip out easily when using a phillips.
Then there's Reid Prince to further confuse things.
I believe the screw head that Adam was referring to is JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) - it looks very similar to a Philips, but it is a different fit. They are very common on Asian reels as well as computer stuff.
Arm yourself with some Vessel bits (sizes 1, 2 and 3) they will fit both JIS and Philips.
You also might want to try a pin vice,,a tool that is used in watch making and repair to hold the crown pin but which can also be used to hold and start small screws.
After the screw is firmly in place you can gently try different screwdrivers to see which is the best fit for final tightening.
I seem to find a lot of uses for these tools, I'm sure you would too.
A four piece set of the vices is about $10.00 on Ebay.
josa1
Should the bit fully insert into the screw or will a portion stay above the opening? Dominick Dinger
Full engagement.
Quote from: Keta on January 18, 2018, 02:29:50 AM
Full engagement.
and if you really love that reel, cradle it by placing your index and thumb close to the screwdriver tip so it won't slide off the screw and damage the anodizing. Oh and another thing...no power drivers ;) ;D
I just bought 2 sets of JIS bits. The prices are all over, from $4.00 to $18.00 for the same brand. I got the $4.00 ones and they only zapped me $5.00 for shipping. Hopefully this will help with Shimano and Diawa screws.
Sal, some of us have to deal with arthritis and I have a hand that never healed right from being broken a few years ago. You have to be extra careful when using a power screwdriver but as long as you are only using it on Philips (and JIS) Torx or allen they do not slip out of the screw and mangle a nice reel. You also can not tork down the screws, I loosen and finish tightening by hand. With a slot head screw the driver blade can slip and there goes the finish. If you can use a hand screwdriver they are preferred over a power one.
BTW, cataracts do not help either.
Quote from: Keta on January 18, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Sal, some of us have to deal with arthritis and I have a hand that never healed right from being broken a few years ago. You have to be extra careful when using a power screwdriver but as long as you are only using it on Philips (and JIS) Torx or allen they do not slip out of the screw and mangle a nice reel. You also can not tork down the screws, I loosen and finish tightening by hand. With a slot head screw the driver blade can slip and there goes the finish. If you can use a hand screwdriver they are preferred over a power one.
Lee is exactly right on the power drivers, IMO.
I use a good quality drill such as a variable speed small 12V Milwaukee with an adjustable clutch so parts are not damaged.
But I never use a power driver on old antiques, high end aluminum anodized reels, or any reel that can be damaged by a slip. Plus, I am careful -- and generally do the initial screw "break" using the proper manual screwdriver.
And on the final function check of the reel before bagging and boxing -- one of the last things done is to check each screw or bolt with manual tools, snug them just right.
I can't abide messed up screw heads just because I was too lazy to use a manual driver. However, when doing 16 screws on a large salt reel, plus everything else involved -- for me, a power driver used properly and competently with high torque and slow variable speed -- is invaluable for general production work on the bench.
It doesn't matter on a crate of reels for a charter operation -- but it does matter to me in the case of a full restoration, old reel, or high end anodized reel.
Best,
Fred
Dominick, I have to thank you for this thread. What started as a simple question became very informative for myself and I am sure many others. I did not know what JIS was before this although I often wondered why "normal" bits often did not fit as snug as they should have. I am sure many of us have been googling JIS screw drivers for the past couple of days.
Keep up the good work, intentional or not.
Scott
I know I've been Googling ( is that really a word now?), And also following the similar thread on the ""Tools and lubricant" section of the site....Very interesting, waiting to see what the boss comes up with on his correspondence with the Vessel screwdriver rep...from what I've learned so far they are one of the best out there for screwdrivers in the JIS line.
Brett
Attention: I spoke to Alan and he suggested putting up the same post in several different spots to make sure the guys didn't miss it.....
If you are repairing a fishing reel made in Japan, you may need a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) based Screwdriver or JIS-based screwdriver bit. The JIS Cross-point, which looks like a Phillips®, is designed to fit perfectly into Japanese screws and will not "cam-out" like a Phillips® does.
(http://www.vesseltools.com/images/alantani/phillips_versus_jis.jpg)(http://www.vesseltools.com/images/alantani/tip_images.jpg)
A JIS and a Phillips® screw may look the same to the human eye, but they have completely different profiles. Phillips® drivers do not seat as deeply into JIS screw heads as the JIS tips do, and will typically damage JIS screws.
The Phillips® design was a solution for automobile mass-production lines, and was designed to "cam-out" after a certain torque was reached to prevent over-tightening of the screw. The self-centering design allowed operators to engage the tip of the driver into the cross-point screw head very quickly and easily, which was an advantage over the use of flat head screws.
Since 1916, VESSEL was Japan's first volume manufacturer of screwdrivers and was a Key Member of the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standards) Association. During that time, Japanese Engineers developed their own cross-point design similar to that of the Phillips®. It was also self-centering and allowed the operator to engage the tip of the driver into the cross-point screw head quickly and easily. However, the JIS design allowed torque and over-tightening to be controlled by the operator and not at the head of the screw.
(http://www.vesseltools.com/images/alantani/jis_screws.jpg)
A JIS screw can sometimes be identified by the presence of a small punch-mark of a dot or dimple on one side of the screw-head or an "X", but this is not always true and some may have no marking at all. In many cases, a JIS screwdriver or screwdriver bits can be used with Phillips® screws too.
For additional details: https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/whatsjis
JDV Products, Inc., the U.S. Partner to VESSEL Co. Japan, would like to offer a discount to all Reel Repair by Alan Tani forum members when placing an order on our website https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/screwdriversets (https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/screwdriversets)
During checkout, enter the code RRBATX2918 when prompted and you will automatically receive a 15% discount on all tools purchased.
NOTE: Coupon cannot be applied to items that are currently on sale, discontinued, on clearance, and excludes limited edition and everyday low priced items.
If you have any questions please post here, or for faster response e-mail sales@vesseltools.com.
Thank you!
I thoght we had already covered this one - but he! no harm in reinstating :)
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 16, 2018, 07:39:42 PM
I thoght we had already covered this one - but he! no harm in reinstating :)
Yep, I can remember posting about this numerous times, can we sticky something and put it to bed forever?
If you have Japanese reels, get J(apanese)IS drivers! :-\
Rick Hascup, can you ship to us poor cousins in Australia at a reasonable postage rate? Vessel are a bit scarce around here, I have a toolbox full but they are expensive to obtain from OS!
cheers
Steve
Steve, sorry for the delay. The cheapest way to ship is USPS (REGULAR MAIL)
1 lb box will be $23.00
2 lb box $30.00
3 lb box $39.00
4 lb box $40.00
Steve, are you aware of any Tool distributors that have locations in the U.S.? Hey, you never know?
Thanks for you interest in VESSEL JIS screwdrivers.
Getting back to Philips screw drivers, I grind the tip of my drivers, so they fit right into the screw, they don't slip so easy, cheers Don.
This is GREAT info - I never knew about JIS! Since the only thing I like buying almost as much as fishing equipment is new tools, I believe I see a set in my future! Couple of thoughts to add:
Tools do "wear out", even good ones. You only have to slip off of a screw under pressure (Phillips, Standard, or otherwise) a few times and the "bit" of the tool will begin to become slightly compromised as well over time. Combine that with folks tendencies to use their Standard screwdrivers as prying tools to open things like paint cans, beers, etc. it pays to periodically inspect the tip of the tool to make sure it's not the culprit in rounding out or gouging screw heads.
Another trick that I learned from my Dad, when you run into those screws that seem like they may be just a little over tight or maybe seized up, while there is a TON of great advice on the forum about various penetrating lubricants for the nasty stuck fasteners, one of the quick tricks that he taught me was to seat the tool into the fastener, and give it a light "tap" along it's axis. Emphasis on the "light"; we're not looking to countersink, strip threads or bust heads. Many times that little tap will "unfreeze" the fastener to where it will twist out with normal torque.
Also - if it's Asian assume it's JIS and use the appropriate bit/screwdriver - and sometimes hit it with heat (avoiding any plastic stuff)
I like playing with old guns, and so I make a bunch of my own drivers. My flat blade drivers do not slip, because I use or make hollow ground, parallel sided engagements that fit well. Lots of cross point bits are poorly manufactured and will not fit the fastener they were designed for well.
Concerning JIS / Phillips, the two can be readily differentiated after a bit. The JIS have corners with a much smaller radius. I bellieve the corners are supposed to be sharp, but that's difficult with mass production. There are actually Fearsons and a couple other cross tip designs. Plus the new fangled monstrosities that combine a #2 almost phillips with a #2 square drive. The only thing I like about those is that they are usually made of tougher material and you can go to town with an impact driver and not worry so much about twisting them off. Bottom line, know your fastener, use quality tools and get rid of / regrind a driver that shows any rear.
Ron
yes, important details.
Ron are you talking about Posidrive heads on screws? Very popular throughout the world except, it seems, the US :-\
Like to order one, but look at the shipping price......bloody hell.
Quote from: Dominick on January 17, 2018, 01:28:35 AM
Whenever I see a Phillips head screw, I reach for the nearest one and work the screw. Sometimes it skips and dings the screw. Is there a simple way to know which size Phillips head to use? Dominick
hey
swap the screw with a hex head screw
besides the standard sizes like 00,0,1,2,3... I also keep several different quality brands of each size bit/driver. This allows me to almost always find a bit that fits perfect to the screw recess. Cheap screws made from Chinese cheese can still be a problem even with a perfectly fitting bit. In those cases I do what I have to to get it out, like maybe grinding a slot in the head for a standard screwdriver, then I try to find a replacement that is well made.
Reels have not been a huge problem for me like rusted screws on a car, but it is always helpful to have an assortment of screwdrivers and bits in several variations... like JIS, USA standard +, Euro standard +, Cheese anti-standard ?+?, and a ton of standard/flat drivers and bits. You can never have to many. I am always adding to my 1" insert bit collection. Having oddballs like a Philips security bit "tiny hole in tip like security torx" has been a blessing and time saver.