Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn 99/Jigmaster/SurfMaster/Squidder Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: TJPerez on January 30, 2018, 01:22:53 PM



Title: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 30, 2018, 01:22:53 PM
Hello,

I recently have taken some of my dad's old fishing gear and set about restoring it. The first one I've approached is an old Jigmaster 500. When I opened it to be re-lubed, the drag disks were disintegrated, so I ordered some of the carbon replacement disks. I followed Alan's guide on how to restore it. Tested seperately the drag appears to function fine, engaging and disengaging appropriately. However, when reassembled, there is gear slippage (I'm assuming between the drag gear and pinion gear). I'm wondering, does it sound like my pinion gear is shot or have I misadjusted something?

Any help is appreciated,
Trevor


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: thorhammer on January 30, 2018, 01:45:32 PM
Trevor what do you mean by tested independently? What is slipping, exactly? This should be an easy fix.


John


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Gfish on January 30, 2018, 01:47:44 PM
Are you sure everything is assembled in the correct order? Everything's facing the right direction? Are you using a schematic or tutorial for reassembly? Is it possible to take and post pictures?
Woah, sorry TJ, I answered your question with 4 of my own...
What you are calling the "drag gear" might be the main gear.
Gfish


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 30, 2018, 01:51:19 PM
 John,
By independently I mean that I attached the sleeve and star knob to the bridge assembly and tightened it to ensure that it wasn't the drag slipping. And by slipping I can hear the metal dragging, sounds like the teeth are slipping by each other.

Gfish
At work currently so pictures are unavailable. I followed Alan's assembly guide posted to this forum as well as took my own disassembly pictures. By drag gear I mean the gear that the drag disks are housed within.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Hardy Boy on January 30, 2018, 01:58:07 PM
Is your dog slipping ? If the anti reverse dog is in backwards it can slip and make a ratchet sound. I'm not totally getting what the issue is from the description. Gear wear should be easy to see if its bad by looking at the teeth.

Cheers:

Todd


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Keta on January 30, 2018, 02:04:42 PM
Todd, The 15-500 AR dog is hard to put in backwards.


John,
By independently I mean that I attached the sleeve and star knob to the bridge assembly and tightened it to ensure that it wasn't the drag slipping. And by slipping I can hear the metal dragging, sounds like the teeth are slipping by each other.

Are you turning the main gear by hand?


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Rivverrat on January 30, 2018, 02:13:29 PM
Pictures ?


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: joel8080 on January 30, 2018, 02:34:39 PM
You might a longer spaceing sleeve as Carbon drags are thinner then original factory and thats why it's slipping.

Joel 8080


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: thorhammer on January 30, 2018, 02:35:22 PM
Yeah, if can get some pics we can get you set in short order. I think I have some pinions and will shoot one to you if that's the issue. when you assemble the reel, does it grind when you reel? Does the handle spin at all if the reel is in freespool and you spin it? If that's it, it's not the drag; the pinion isn't disengaging and more likely your yoke or jack is shot.

One more question, is the main gear (where drags are) steel or brass? steel isn't quiet like brass but stronger.


John  


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: handi2 on January 30, 2018, 03:59:55 PM
I would assume itís the worn pinion gear or the spool itself.

Do you have line on the reel? If so when you tighten the drag and pull the line does it jump out of gear? Clunk, clunk....


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 30, 2018, 04:01:43 PM
I will hold off until I get home for pictures. Thor what you're saying sounds like what I am experiencing. I do hear grinding when I reel. Visibly the yoke and jack looked fine, flat and no wear to the eye, but I will post pictures later for confirmation. Maybe my installation wasn't correct of those parts, again pictures will be posted when I get home. The gear sleeve is brass and I believe the main gear is as well based on the color of the tarnish.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: mikeysm on January 30, 2018, 05:58:19 PM
Are you trying this with the side plate removed. The spool aligns the pinion gear. Without it the gear will skip. Nothing to hold it centered.

Mike





Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 30, 2018, 10:42:28 PM
Alrighty, got home, disassembled and reassembled taking pictures along the way!

Main gear assembly. I see on the bottom near the bridge that there is clean metal where it must be grinding.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/70gw49.jpg)

Pinion gear
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2je96x.jpg)

Pinion Yoke and Eccentric Jack
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2qv8kcp.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/1qs5kp.jpg)

Free spool lever
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2a12tw.jpg)

Pinion gear, springs and Yoke installed
(http://i68.tinypic.com/ipp4ex.jpg)

Eccentric jack installed
(http://i66.tinypic.com/ddyih1.jpg)

Free spool engaging/disengaging
(http://i63.tinypic.com/10o4pb4.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/jjphn9.jpg)

All testing, besides ensuring the drag wasn't slipping, was done fully assembled with no line on the reel.

Hopefully thats enough to work with. If theres anything missing we need pictures of let me know, unfortunately full time student and full time work so it may take a day to get them up.

Thanks again for all the help so far.
Trevor


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Shark Hunter on January 30, 2018, 11:01:28 PM
You have your parts out of order.
The yoke needs to ride on the eccentric jack.
That is what those tabs are for.
Pay attention to this tutorial.
We are here to help.
I was in the same boat when I started here. ;)
Here is the money shot.
Daron
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=20.0


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: oc1 on January 31, 2018, 12:59:03 AM
The yoke and eccentric jack are correct.  If it grinds when you turn the handle with the side plate removed it is because the spool shaft is not there to hold the pinion in place.  Without the spool shaft to keep the pinion centered it will not mesh properly with the main gear.  Put the spool on and then try it.
-steve


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Keta on January 31, 2018, 04:50:04 AM

It's hard to tell in this photo but it looks like the tabs on the eccentric jack are up, they should be down. Is it a 11-99?

(http://i66.tinypic.com/ddyih1.jpg)


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Swami805 on January 31, 2018, 05:48:55 AM
It looks like the jack isn't centered on the yoke. try loosening the bridge screws a little and center the jack so the hook is fully contacting the eccentric like it is in Daron's picture.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 31, 2018, 06:17:56 AM
The eccentric tabs are down. It is stamped 11-99.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: JRD on January 31, 2018, 07:54:36 AM
Maybe it's my old eyes but the profiles on the pinion teeth look worn on some teeth and it looks like a lot of flaking on the teeth.

Check the pinion slides on the spool cleanly and engages lugs fully and without too much flopping around.  I'm still thinking some ones been in that reel.  Maybe a mis matched main and pinion.  If you have another gear set toss it in and see if problem solved.  If not, send me an address I should have a spare I can send you.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: basto on January 31, 2018, 12:50:05 PM
Your anti reverse dog could be riding high and wearing on your main gear.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Gfish on January 31, 2018, 01:39:12 PM
A-course I could be wrong, but it looks n' sounds like your assembly's correct. If it's what basto says, is the red fiber washer in place UNDERNEATH the main("drag") gear and on topa the gear sleeve antireverse cog? If it isn't, That could conceivably cause the main gear to rub on the antireverse dog when cranking with a tight drag. The main would also wear on the cog(the bottom of the gear sleeve) without that red washer, when the drag is working(allowing the main gear/pinion/spool to turn backwards and pay out line).

Got a feeling you're gonna tell us that ain't it, which is cool. This is an interesting thread/problem, keep it commin...
Gfish


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: franky on January 31, 2018, 04:52:24 PM
Is that the original gear and pinion set or is it a high speed aftermarket gear and pinion set?


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: SoCalAngler on January 31, 2018, 05:49:34 PM
My guess and it's only a guess is there may be two things wrong. First in the pics I can't see if the dog is facing the correct way to the ratchet. If the reel was not "slipping" before the service 90% of the time the dog is flipped upside down. If the dog is correct the another 5% of the time is the dog spring not staying in place, how can I say it? When the bridge plate is rotated into place pushing on the springs. yoke and jack the dog spring can move out of alignment with the dog.

Does this reel have the flat copper type dog spring? I don't see it in the photos and as we all know keeping that in place while rotating all the other parts so the "pop" into place is a pain. Personally I think this is where the issue may be.  

The last 5% is all about trying things step by step.  


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Alto Mare on January 31, 2018, 06:10:53 PM
You might also want to check if the eccentric spring is sticking up on the eccentric a bit much, the red arrow is showing a scrape on the Jack by that spring. If you feel  that it is sticking up, you will need to file it down even with the eccentric.
I also noticed the tab on the right side is a little further up from the one on the left, might be a bad angle, but if that's the case , you will need to lower it a little and try to get it in the same position as the one on the left.

Red arrow shows the scrape on the Jack and the blue arrow shows the tab being lifted a little
(https://i.imgur.com/IniJ83T.jpg)
 
Red arrow shows where the tip of the spring needs to be filed down o the eccentric
(https://i.imgur.com/Dy2q4Cq.jpg)

Sal


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 31, 2018, 06:16:07 PM
The saga continues! Thanks again guys for all your continued assistance. So I disassembled again and took a few more pictures based on the responses and tested a few more things to see if I can help to narrow my issue down. Again any opinions will be tested to the best of my ability.

Here is the gear sleeve and dog with spring. The dog looks very flush to the gears as well as in the next picture I have the washer on top with a gap.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2by9ec.jpg)

Here is the fiber washer, however I am using the Carbontex included with the set I purchased from Scotts
(http://i68.tinypic.com/wsl9uo.jpg)

To try to isolate the dog as being a cause of the issue I tested it dragged down without the assemble around it and it was smooth no hang-ups.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2hpkqs0.jpg)

When reassembled with the free spool lever in "Off" there's is still some reeling movement, causing me to believe it isn't fully disengaging, but no grinding noise. In "On" it is rough to move and grinds.

Alto you mean just the spring where it may stick through the barrel, not the barrel part that connects to the lever correct? I will look at that.

This reel has been sitting in my dads rafters for as long as I can remember, may have even been my grandfathers at some point, and I don't think its been touched since the late 80's maybe 90's. I can't comment as to if any work was done to it and my dad can't remember its been so long, but I can fairly certainly suggest that nothing that could have been done would be an "upgrade".


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on January 31, 2018, 06:24:19 PM
Quick update after re-looking at the Eccentric Jack and playing around with it on the yoke, when it is pushed down it looks like it encroaches on the main gear. I looked at the inside of the tabs, the parts nearest the main gear housing and they look like fresh metal as well. So I will order a new eccentric to replace that. Hopefully this is the cause!!


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 01, 2018, 02:13:24 PM
Does anyone know of any tackle stores that might carry the eccentric in the S.F. Bay Area, or somewhere it won't cost $5 to ship :o?


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: handi2 on February 01, 2018, 03:01:39 PM
PM me your address and I will send you one. It might take a few days to get there with regular mail.

Keith


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 01, 2018, 03:07:49 PM
Shot you an email Keith. Thank you!


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: David Hall on February 01, 2018, 03:39:10 PM
Looks
Ike youíre eliminating the possible causes.  Stick with it.  Be assured that if the correct parts are installed in the correct order, it must work, if it doesnít then keep looking, with metal scraping the location should become obvious if everything was cleaned well before assembly and you take it apart.  I had one tha tthe spool edge was rubbing on a bridge screw, sounded horrible, stuck and grind.  Took me a bit of time but I finally found it.  Ground the screw down and all was well.  Your in the right place, stick with it you cannot fail with all the help your going to get.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 01, 2018, 04:01:30 PM
Hopefully! It has been fun and educational figuring this reel out. Makes me a lot more confident moving on with reel maintenance. Next up is seeing what I actually manage catch with it  ;D.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Bryan Young on February 01, 2018, 04:24:21 PM
TJ, where in the sf Bay Area are you located?  Alan and I are both in the South Bay.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 01, 2018, 04:38:44 PM
East Bay, Concord specifically.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Cortez_Conversions on February 01, 2018, 04:41:28 PM
Just my opinion, but in the last few pics there is a lot of grease around the dog. That could slow the dog as it rebounds...
Tom


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: scrinch on February 01, 2018, 09:17:58 PM
The bushing and spool spindle are what keep the main and pinion gear laterally engaged when you are reeling. Any chance of a loose, off-center, or deformed bushing, or a bent/broken spindle? If so, I would expect the spool to rub too.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Bryan Young on February 02, 2018, 07:52:08 AM
If you come down to the South Bay, we can help you figure things out.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Jim Fujitani on February 02, 2018, 08:16:49 AM
Now that is an invitation!!

If I had that invite 20 years ago, Alan and Bryan would have probably charged me rent for the time spent in their garages.  I'd have gained a lot of correct and valuable info rather than through trials and tribulations.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Keta on February 02, 2018, 08:38:12 AM
Now that is an invitation!!

If I had that invite 20 years ago, Alan and Bryan would have probably charged me rent for the time spent in their garages. 

Na, Alan would just make you clean his shop like he does to me.... ;D


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Bryan Young on February 02, 2018, 08:56:58 AM
Now that is an invitation!!

If I had that invite 20 years ago, Alan and Bryan would have probably charged me rent for the time spent in their garages.  I'd have gained a lot of correct and valuable info rather than through trials and tribulations.
Jim, we would have encouraged you to post your trials and tribulations as Iím sure we have all gone down those paths, and how you have came out the better. Itís all about you, not us.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 02, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
I believe the spool is making a solid connection with both the left side and the pinion. I may have gotten a bit overzealous with the grease and can wipe some away but the dog hasn't shown any issues with staying with the gear. Bryan, I am going to see if this fix works when I receive the eccentric. If not I may have to take you up on your offer.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 08, 2018, 01:13:46 PM
Received my package from Keith today, swapped the eccentric out, filed down the protruding part of the free spool spring and we are in business now! I wanted to make sure and thank everyone for your advice and help.
Time to go catch some fish.

Trevor


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Shark Hunter on February 08, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
Awesome! ;D


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: thorhammer on February 08, 2018, 01:16:33 PM
nice. it takes a village.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Rivverrat on February 08, 2018, 03:59:34 PM
It's a great thing to see someone come here & get stuff fixed... Jeff


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Gfish on February 08, 2018, 09:33:55 PM
Cool!
But I godda ask, was it the eccentric jack, or the spring end sticking up, that was causing the problem? If it was the e. Jack, then what specifically was off on it? Kinda sounds like the "sticking up spring end" was affecting proper e. Jack movement.
It's a learning thing...
Gfish


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: TJPerez on February 08, 2018, 09:44:12 PM
Gfish,

I did them both at once so I can't be entirely positive, but from fiddling with it before I'm fairly confident it was the eccentric. The previous one was coming in contact with the main gear because it protruded into the gear housing (I noticed this when I compressed the yoke/pinion/jack all at once with the bridge removed.


Title: Re: Gear slippage on Jigmaster 500
Post by: Donnyboat on May 20, 2019, 05:55:24 AM
Good on you Trevor, clad you stuck with it, a good learning curve for you & many of us as well, now we wont to see photos of the first few fish you catch, and don`t forget to leave some on the ocean for us, cheers Don.