Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn 99/Jigmaster/SurfMaster/Squidder Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: festus on April 07, 2018, 07:24:02 PM

Title: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: festus on April 07, 2018, 07:24:02 PM
This guy is fairly new to youtube and has some interesting videos.

He exposes some of the weak points of the newer Jigmasters here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDXH-cjUZ8&t=398s
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: foakes on April 07, 2018, 10:38:48 PM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion — and this guy does good youtube videos.

However, little, if any, of his critical assessments are accurate...

There is little or no difference in the eccentric springs —

The metal he says is SS, is actually nickel coated brass — not SS.  

Handles may be a little weaker, I have actually found some of the newer ones are stronger.

Other parts on the Chinese made Jig-masters are a little stronger, in some cases.

——————————————————

Here is the other thing that few folks know:

If a new 500 was manufactured in the US, it would likely cost $110 to $140, IMO.  Few of us are willing to pay that (I wouldn't, and I am sure most on our AT site would not either).  So they would not sell because although they are super dependable, they are old school and boring to the angling world.

I work on a lot of 500, 209, and 9s.

If I needed an aluminum spool for a JM, it would run $29 + shipping, a sideplate $20, a ring $17, a bridge $18 — plus the other 46 parts would still be additional.

If a LW assembly was needed for a 209, it might run $30 for all the parts.

I can buy a new 500, with an aluminum spool, for $57.83 shipped to my door in 2 days — and all of the extra parts are now inventory for needed repairs — and close to 100% profit on parts, since they are paid for — screws, drags, gears, posts, rings, cranks, etc., etc..

A new 209 will run $58.43, a new 9M will run $41.80 — all shipped to my door.

Sometimes, I buy 10 at a time, and just strip them down for individual parts inventory.

They all fit — older or newer.

So, sometimes our experience will give us a different perspective or picture — then we see on the internet.

We should verify and test things ourselves — before we believe everything we are told.

I am grateful that Penn has chosen to produce these less expensive reels in China — and keep parts compatible for the most part.

Each of us does things differently, depending on our focus and how many reels we repair or work on.

Just don't like to see the Asian Penn products trashed or painted unfairly with too wide of a brush — they are good, solid products. 

Yes, I would like to buy everything American — but that ship sailed a few decades ago — and is not coming back.

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Gfish on April 07, 2018, 11:20:32 PM
Yeah, he got the ss bridge-plate thing wrong. But I wonder about the "alloy" corrosion assessment?... True?...Could the eccentric spring breaking prematurely on the newer ones be true?... Like to see how he comes to these conclusions, 'cause you really gotta test stuff in a controlled environment.

Didn't watch the 209 part.

Another thing to be carefull of is making statements about felt washers needin to be replaced with HT-100's. Never herd of felt drag washers in a 500? Did I miss the boat on that one?

I'd love it if the Penn's were all produced here, old school style. I'd pay more for 'em... I can only hope that the Chinese workers are payed a decent wage, but I doubt it.
I have several friends and even more acquaintances on the island---green carded persons all workin in the resturant industry and they work 12 hrs. 6 days/week, and send most of their $ home. I think they'ed stay there, near their families and work manufacturing, if it payed a good wage.
This little cutie is 16 month old Olivia(picture taken at 13 mon.). Her parents had to send her to Grandma and Grandad's in the Chinese countryside so they could both work and not have to depend on paid babysitters here, that they couldn't trust( 2 injuries, while in the babysitters care, how do you dislocate a 1yr. old's arm at the shoulder?!?!).
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: festus on April 07, 2018, 11:26:04 PM
Nope, I don't agree with everything the guy says and does.  I've never seen him completely take apart a reel, soak, and clean everything like we're taught on here.  Most I've seen him do is partially disassemble the reels, replace a few parts, maybe spray some WD-40, do a wipedown, lube, and reassemble. 

He's says he's been in the reel repair business for 20 years so undoubtedly he knows much more than I do.  Probably does good work but takes more shortcuts than I would.

Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: mo65 on April 07, 2018, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: foakes on April 07, 2018, 10:38:48 PM
The metal he says is SS, is actually nickel coated brass — not SS.  

   Ya know, if I had a nickle for every time someone called nickle/chrome plated brass stainless steel I could buy us all a beer. I don't even get it either...it's not the same appearance...doesn't even feel the same...not even close! Sorta like comparing Lincoln to Nixon. OK Mo, settle down. ::) :P :D
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Reel 224 on April 07, 2018, 11:56:55 PM
I was going to comment on the cost of manufacturing the 500 in the US as far as pricing goes, but I doubt that will change opinion. But I would say that Penn USA has proven there quality of old school reels for a long time.

Most of us grew up knowing the quality of Penn manufacturing like I do, I for one don't have a problem with pricing when it comes to quality, further more we spend more money building custom reel built on the Peen base all the time.

I like/prefer American made over any other country's product when American is in my opinion is better quality.

Joe   
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Alto Mare on April 08, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
I give that man a lot of credit for trying to help others, even though he got some stuff wrong, well... maybe all wrong :).
In some cases, the chromed parts are stronger that stainless steel. I have a couple of those in my 16/0's.

Sal
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Swami805 on April 08, 2018, 02:12:56 AM
I think a lot of us here trust the Penn name and would believe they wouldn't sell a product that wasn't up to snuff even if it was built on the moon. I would hope the people in China are better off working at the Penn plant than they were before, A rising tide raises all ships or something like that
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: JRD on April 08, 2018, 02:27:04 AM
I'm a combat vet, with two sons in a hostile place so don't get me wrong but what's made in America really mean?  Ford's and Chevy come from Mexico and Canada, Honda's and Toyota's in the US.  Most manufacturing equipment and materials come from over seas and we don't have a skilled work force of old school craftsmen anymore.  The only thing I can guarantee made in America is my kids. 

Penn quality probably suffers more from the grade of materials available in today's eco friendly world than manufacturing.  They are the AK-47 of reels, pretty much interchangeable and functional no matter where it's produced.  Seems this guy has just drank the patriotic kool aide without much real evidence to back him up. 

Are the vintage better quality?  Absolutely but that's a function of when they are produced, not where. 
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Reel 224 on April 08, 2018, 02:45:16 AM
Inaccurate information is as bad as no information, misleading people on the wrong path.

Joe
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: oc1 on April 08, 2018, 07:02:40 AM
Don't worry guys.  Much of that manufacturing will come back to the US eventually.  Just waiting for the rising standard of living overseas to meet us half way.  ;)
-steve
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Keta on April 09, 2018, 02:24:42 PM
Be careful and keep this thread from going political or we will have to shut it down....something I really hate to do.

There are lots of reasons manufacturing moved overseas.  Greed by both the company and consumer is just one of the reasons, hard to do or unobtainable environmental regulations is another.  FYI one of my past jobs was to try to keep up with the environmental protection laws and before we could meet the latest "current regulations" they were made tougher and we could never catch up...and the fines made it harder to fund the BOD upgrades needed.  I'm all for a clean environment but at times the EPA goes too far. 

I have countries I prefer to "buy" from, the PRC has never been on that list but Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan are.  This is mostly "quality driven" but somewhat political China has improved their quality over the years.  The PRC Penn's I have (Fathom 25N reels in both star and lever drag and a Warfare) ) look to be well built.  I have had issues with LW worm gears in Warfare LW reels but the customer uses them for albacore and in my opinion is causing part of the problem himself.

Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on April 09, 2018, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on April 08, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
In some cases, the chromed parts are stronger that stainless steel. I have a couple of those in my 16/0's.

Sal


Sal, I thought you were a stainless guy through and through :)  Can you give an example of how chromed brass can be stronger than the same part in stainless?  


Gfish, I like the way you put a human face on the differences.   

Cheers,

/Joe
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Vintage Offshore Tackle on April 09, 2018, 03:18:04 PM
I have no qualifications as a metallurgist, but I have bought and sold more than 500 used Jigmasters, so I speak from first-hand experience.  

Even though the average age of the Chinese reels was at least 20 years newer than the USA reels, the condition of the metal parts in and on most of those Chinese reels was on average, far worse.  I avoid them whenever possible.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on April 09, 2018, 03:44:29 PM
Also speaking without personal qualifications, and anecdotally...  ::)  I remember when I was a kid in the 60's, Japanese steel had a bad reputation.  I don't know how much substance there was to the argument, but Japanese products where pushing more and more into the market.  Penn vs. Daiwa was a big battle in the 70's.   Everyone I know preferred the Penns, but the Daiwas had some attention-getting innovations and were priced nicely.   We bought more Penns, but a few Daiwas.   I'm not a reel expert, but now vintage Daiwa Sealine reels compare favorably with Penn conventionals.   Seems like China is the next wave, and metallurgy is a work in progress there.  I'm more worried about how Chinese people are treated and the government ideologies, than the quality of the goods. 

Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Reel 224 on April 09, 2018, 04:12:30 PM
It's not a matter of who manufactures the product as long as the quality is there. I personalty support American quality products when ever I can because I'm an American. I don't think that is wrong or political at least I do not think that way.

Joe
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: akfish on April 09, 2018, 04:55:41 PM
The biggest problems with Chinese Penns, in my opinion, is that (1) the tolerances are not quite what the should be -- the gear sleeve doesn't fit the bridge as it should, etc. -- and (2) the quality of the stainless steel is so low that rust is almost inevitable. I also find that the feet on most Chinese Penns is thinner metal than the feel on US Penns. But I have to admit that the Chinese Penns are worth the money we pay for them. Good, inexpensive reels. The US Penns are absolutely top notch.

BTW: Penn stopped putting steel gears in US made Jigmasters long before they moved production overseas.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Alto Mare on April 09, 2018, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: Decker on April 09, 2018, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on April 08, 2018, 12:34:26 AM
In some cases, the chromed parts are stronger that stainless steel. I have a couple of those in my 16/0's.

Sal


Sal, I thought you were a stainless guy through and through :)  Can you give an example of how chromed brass can be stronger than the same part in stainless?  


Gfish, I like the way you put a human face on the differences.   

Cheers,

/Joe
Joe, there are many grades of stainless steel, depending on the grade chosen when comparing it to brass , brass could be stronger at times.

This is from Adam, a man that works with steel daily.
Brass and bronze are fantastic.  In many cases, they are as strong as, if not stronger than the 300 series of stainless steels.  And they generally machine better, and conduct heat and electricity better.
Personally I'm no expert, but got this  same information a long time ago from Aaron ( Reel Speed).

Best,

Sal
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Keta on April 09, 2018, 11:10:02 PM
Quote from: Decker on April 09, 2018, 03:44:29 PM
  I remember when I was a kid in the 60's, Japanese steel had a bad reputation. 

During the post war years the Japanese were doing a 100% rebuild of their country and that could explain some quality issues with steel BUT....I was fortunate enough to have my hands on a Zero that spent 40 years in the jungle on Guadalcanal and was amassed at the quality of the castings and craftsmanship overall.  When we took the gear boxes apart the internal "steel" parts looked like they were stored in a cool dry environment and not in a humid jungle. 
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Keta on April 09, 2018, 11:15:17 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on April 09, 2018, 09:27:53 PM

Joe, there are many grades of stainless steel, depending on the grade chosen when comparing it to brass , brass could be stronger at times.

Beryllium bronze is stronger than a lot of SS alloys in many ways.  I have a punch made out of beryllium bronze that will dent mild steel.   
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on April 10, 2018, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: Keta on April 09, 2018, 11:10:02 PM
I was fortunate enough to have my hands on a Zero that spent 40 years in the jungle on Guadalcanal and was amassed at the quality of the castings and craftsmanship overall.  When we took the gear boxes apart the internal "steel" parts looked like they were stored in a cool dry environment and not in a humid jungle. 

Very cool, Lee.   Do you have any photos?
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Gfish on April 10, 2018, 07:48:06 PM
Quote from: Keta on April 09, 2018, 11:10:02 PM
Quote from: Decker on April 09, 2018, 03:44:29 PM
  I remember when I was a kid in the 60's, Japanese steel had a bad reputation. 

During the post war years the Japanese were doing a 100% rebuild of their country and that could explain some quality issues with steel BUT....I was fortunate enough to have my hands on a Zero that spent 40 years in the jungle on Guadalcanal and was amassed at the quality of the castings and craftsmanship overall.  When we took the gear boxes apart the internal "steel" parts looked like they were stored in a cool dry environment and not in a humid jungle. 

According to my Dad, serving in the S. Pacific,  the zero's were downright scary given their speed and manuverability. 
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Swami805 on April 10, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
Would have loved to have seen that Zero. My father had some stories about encounters with them in the pacific in WW2. Early in the war they were state of the art, it took us a while to catch up. I've seen old fighters at air shows but never a zero. Fortunate indeed
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Keta on April 11, 2018, 12:34:16 PM
Quote from: Decker on April 10, 2018, 06:31:39 PM
Very cool, Lee.   Do you have any photos?

My daughter has many photos of the restore but she's in SE British Columbia.  I will try to get a few.  The plane was shot up and smashed from crashing but before the $ ran out they got it about 75% done.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Keta on April 11, 2018, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: Swami805 on April 10, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
I've seen old fighters at air shows but never a zero. Fortunate indeed

I think there is 1 "Zero" around but it is not a restore as many parts were from other planes and they used the wrong rivets.  I think this one is in Colorado now and I hope the funds become available to finish it even though my daughter's family will not be the ones to do it.  My brother built "counterfeit" gear boxes in his aviation weld repair station/machine shop and made them look like the original castings.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on April 12, 2018, 06:52:17 PM
Just to jump off on yet another tangent...  At the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia (birthplace of Penn reels), there is this airplane engine that has cutaway parts so that you can look inside it.  I don't have the background to fully appreciate the engineering marvels that go into this engine, but WOW!   It is always fascinating how advances in space a & aeronuatical engineering spill off into other industries.   That we all use GPS every day is an easy example.  Looking at this engine, I think it is safe to assume that there are connections between the technology that went into building it and the fishing reels that we use.  Am I wrong?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Aircraft_engine_-_Franklin_Institute_-_DSC06591.JPG/800px-Aircraft_engine_-_Franklin_Institute_-_DSC06591.JPG)
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Bill B on May 13, 2018, 12:20:55 AM
Just a little farther off topic.....the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, Ca has the only fully authentic FLYING Zero in its collection.  I've seen it in person, on the ground and in the air and what an elegant flying machine....Bill

http://planesoffame.org/index.php?mact=staircraft,cntnt01,default,0&cntnt01what=stplanes&cntnt01alias=A6M5&cntnt01returnid=128
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Swami805 on May 13, 2018, 02:24:05 AM
Thanks Bill
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Brewcrafter on May 13, 2018, 06:30:00 PM
Thanks Bill, I was just about to type the same thing!  And not only do they have this exceptionally rare Zero, they also have one of very few flying P38 Lightnings surviving.
Decker also had a great point about technologies that rang home to me this morning while researching an old Mitchell that I ran across yesterday at a garage sale.  My Dad, like many servicemen, brought Mitchells and DAMs (and my Mom, Happy Mother's Day to all the Mom's out there!) back from Germany and I still have them (and my 94 year old Mom!) going strong.
While researching this garage sale find (Model 304, serial number from 1959.  The guy could see I was really into old reels so he just gave it to me - very nice of him!) I learned about the origins of Mitchell.
Most folks on this forum probably know this stuff, but it never hurts to remember - I noticed on the Mitchell website that the early origins of Mitchell were in Clock Manufacturing (precision instruments!).  The beginnings of Shimano were in precision bicycle parts (in the lobby area on the Shimano HQ in Irvine CA there is a sort of memorial plaque featuring a very old gearset - and commemorating the origins of the company).  And while Shimano was spun out from the bike industry you can also to a certain degree make the argument that those aircraft mentioned above - all can trace their part of their ancestry to a couple of brothers with a bike shop.  That Japanese Zero (state of the art at the time!) lives on today - in the form of Mitsubishi and Dodge motor cars (the Mitsubishi logo is actually a stylized 3 bladed aircraft propeller, and as far as the "rebranding" in the auto industry, pretty much most modern automobile are "mutts".)  All you folks with those REALLY nice state of the art Yamaha 4 stroke outboards (or motorcycles) might wonder why the company logo is...a stylized tuning fork (reminds me - I need to yell at my kids to practice their piano this morning!).  And that Zebco 66 that I think myself and probably 90% of folks my age had as a "first" fishing outfit - It was made by the ZEro hour Bomb Company - manufacturers of timers and fuses (basically precision clockworks) in the war years.  It's no accident that both the radio antenna on your boat and the rod in your hand might be labeled Shakespeare - I am sure there are many other examples like this with the fishing equipment that we all enjoy!
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Gfish on May 13, 2018, 08:23:59 PM
Yeah, I remember that now, the Zero's were developed by Mitsubishi Co. Great TV's, middle a the road quality cars(relative to other Japanese cars). If I remember right, the first Zero we could look at in WW2 was shot down or crash landed in Alaska somewhere.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on May 14, 2018, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: Brewcrafter on May 13, 2018, 06:30:00 PM
All you folks with those REALLY nice state of the art Yamaha 4 stroke outboards (or motorcycles) might wonder why the company logo is...a stylized tuning fork (reminds me - I need to yell at my kids to practice their piano this morning!). 

Wow, I didn't know that about Yamaha... that their origins come from instrument manufacturing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_Corporation).   I had a cheap Yamaha classical guitar that sounded good, a few years ago. I wonder what is about the history and culture in Japan that led to so many diverse conglomerate companies.     
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Jeri on May 15, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
Coming late to this discussion, I think that the evolution of current Chinese Industrialisation is at the point where, quality is starting to show through, just like post WW2 Japan. To start off with it was low quality, maximum quantity, and then evolved through to quality. Just how many folks now actually go looking for electronics goods, and steer towards Japanese products - because of the quality factor??

To the defense of Chinese fishing tackle manufacturing, they are building products to whatever standard and PRICE, the client is asking for, and here price is certainly a big driving factor.

Not quite in the line of venerable Penn multipliers, but a couple of examples where Chinese manufactured products do feature highly in ranking are the Quantum Cabo range of spinners. Certainly giving the likes of Diawa and Shimano a run for market share and performance at very competitive prices, and some might even say beating the non-Japan manufactured Daiwa and Shimano for quality.

Equally, I have a 1980's Penn Spinfisher, and it is built like a tank and still functioning perfectly with minimal attention or servicing. Where current models would certainly pale into the shadows at the quality of the build. That said, there are some specialist Penn spinners coming through that do have all the makings of becoming cult status reels, because of the quality of manufacture, and made in China.

Give it time, let them develop the quality angle, and the stigma will soon be a thing of the past.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: oc1 on May 15, 2018, 07:55:17 AM
Aside from Penn, it seems most imported reels are being made in Korea, Malaysia or Indonesia.  Maybe the Chinese are moving on to bigger and better things.  The Japanese have already moved their production off shore.
-steve
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Decker on May 15, 2018, 01:33:31 PM
Quote from: oc1 on May 15, 2018, 07:55:17 AM
Aside from Penn, it seems most imported reels are being made in Korea, Malaysia or Indonesia.  Maybe the Chinese are moving on to bigger and better things.  The Japanese have already moved their production off shore.
-steve
Interesting...
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Jeri on May 16, 2018, 06:34:12 AM
Quote from: oc1 on May 15, 2018, 07:55:17 AM
Aside from Penn, it seems most imported reels are being made in Korea, Malaysia or Indonesia.  Maybe the Chinese are moving on to bigger and better things.  The Japanese have already moved their production off shore.
-steve

Diawa and Shimano still make their very top end reels in Japan. Models like Tiagra, Saltiga, Stella and some others. Basically to have control of the quality levels. The down side is there is a disproportionate jump in the prices of those reels over the 'offshore' produced reels, basically it is down to labour costs. China is also having problems firstly getting the numbers of labour that they need, and secondly their labour costs are rising. That is why some companies ae investigating alternative options for cheaper labour. Vietnam is currently getting a lot of attention from Diawa.
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: Reel 224 on May 16, 2018, 02:18:51 PM
I have a Diawa 9000 milliner dx that is in good condition 45years, it has caught a lot of fish and has done millions of casts so I can attest to that reels quality.

Joe   
Title: Re: USA vs Chinese Penn Jigmaster comparison video
Post by: basto on May 17, 2018, 02:20:53 AM
I remember when I was into vintage military firearms, bolt actions.  I read a blow up strength test on a German mauser model 98 and a Japanese Arisaka.  The 98 Mauser action was often recommended for making custom hunting rifles in larger calibers.
When it came to the overloaded cartridge tests, it was the Arisaka that proved the strongest.