Not sure if this is the right place to post this but...
I was curious about trying to troll at depth without the use of a down rigger.
What line type would get you the greatest depth given the same trolling speed / conditions / etc.?
This is assuming you tie the same amount of weight to the end of the line (lets say 4 pounds).
1) 50-65 pound spectra (thin, obviously #50 thinner than #65)
2) lead core line (lead being the densest but also have drag from the sheath / coating)
3) wire line (monel, stainless, copper, etc.)
Also, what are some of the general pros and cons of each?
Thanks a bunch.
That's a very good question and I'm sure you'll get a bunch of answer's.
Spectra or braid will get down due to its thin diameter but more importantly is the weight or style of the lure. If your trolling a Stretch 30, a hundred feet of braid will get you down around 25 feet or so. Other lighter lures will require a trolling sinker or you might consider some type of Mo Jo rig depending on what your fishing for.
Lead core has it place as its much easier to work with. As you said, the jacket does create drag. There are some new micro thin lead cores that seem to work fairly well. The smaller diameter makes up for less weight and drag giving you almost as much depth. Lead core is great for light lures as the line itself is easy to work with and much easier to let out then with SS or monel. I use lead core almost exclusively for tube n worm. Overly long lengths of lead core really don't work well as you get to the point of diminishing returns and you end up with a sow belly or the line actually starts to raise back up at the lure end of the line.
Ah! The dreaded SS wire. Its a PITA but I wont leave the dock without 2 wire outfits. Once you get use to it, its a walk in the park. Its pretty consistent depth wise and the simple rule of thumb is 10 feet of depth for every 100 ft of line. Of course it does vary depending on lure style and weight but once its dialed in, it works.
Not great for a beginner though so if you have newbies on the boat, be prepared to spend some money.
Wire will also work harden and break if not used carefully. As in Jerking bucktails or parachute rigs, if you keep stroking the rod in the same place, the line can become springy and break.
A way to avoid this when working chutes is to turn your clicker on and set the drag so that every time you stroke the rod, you hear a click. Its a place where the drag is set correctly for a strike, but lets out and inch or two of line on every stroke of the rod. It simply equates to not jerking on the wire in the same spot all the time. Unless I get hung up or something goes wrong, I can get a serious season of fishing with the same spool of wire.
Monel is nicer to work with but more expensive.
Braid is the cheapest, lead core #2, #3 SS, and monel is the most expensive.
I make marked wire and sell over 10,000 feet every year. The season hasn't even started and I'm completely sold out.
Is wire the best? Nope! But a lot of guys like it!
Hope this helps in your choice.
Have a great day, .. Lou
Lou -
Thanks for the great reply. I was hoping some of you on the east coast would chime in.
I am on the west coast (CA) and feel like I really don't hear about anyone using wire out here.
One difference though, is, I think you guys use the line (spectra, lead core, wire, w/e) as the main weight.
And then there is some potential for a sinking / diving lure to get a little more depth (not sure what a Stretch 30 is).
I am interested in tying a 4 pound lead sinker (legal weight limit) to the end of the line.
I would then be attaching lures off the mainline using down rigger clips etc.
So, assuming the 4 pound sinker is the main weight, just trying to get the deepest.
Not sure if that would be with thin spectra or weighted mainline (lead core, wire, w/e/).
Thanks a bunch.
Roy
Why not use downrigger, or planers?
Just a thought.
John
Roy, if I get your drift correctly, you basically have a downrigger rig without the mechanical down rigger itself?
If that's the case and I hope I understand you correctly, I would think that you would want a braided wire. It will be the easiest to handle and the 4 lbs of weight on the clip will take are of business end as to where you want to be depth wise.
Sometimes the head is a bit dense and if I'm in the wrong direction, please explain again.
A Stretch 30 is a Mann's deep diving plug. It has a very long shovel style lip and a slim design. It will run deep with the minimal amount of line.
Here it CT. 95% of my fishing is on the troll.
................Lou
Copper wire is called "magical" in the great lakes, some say cuz of the voltage/conductivity that attracts the fish or the action due to the wires own characteristics.
Same goes for lead line.
I am going to use dive bombers with a little copper or lead to get them deeper.
1. 5 color of lead or say 100 ft of copper
2. I can add a dive bomber before the above to add some more depth to it.
Thanks for all of the help guys.
A few more details:
I do not own a boat, so, I am looking for alternatives to a down rigger for when fishing from boats that do not have them.
I am exploring this mainly for salmon trolling (around maybe 2 knots) but hoping to get to depths of around 200 feet or so.
John -
As I mentioned above, looking for alternatives to a down rigger for when I am fishing from boats that don't have them.
I also want to try a planer (not sure if they will get that deep) and to try a heavy rod/reel used as a down rigger.
Any thoughts on which of these options will be most user-friendly (I don't have much experience trolling) and get the deepest?
Lou -
Yeah. So basically an alternative to a down rigger with just 1 line that has the weight and leaders attached (no release clips).
I realized I lied earlier in that the one context I do recall of the local (CA) use of wire for trolling is for salmon as I am interested in.
It seems like they are generally using a solid wire (stainless?) and often remove the rod guides and just put a pulley on the tip.
When you said a braided wire, you mean a multi-strand of wire, not braided spectra etc. correct?
So this is basically like down rigger cable?
I think some people here are switching from down rigger cable to spectra partially because it is thinner and actually gets deeper.
I assumed the wire helped with depth because of its weight, but not sure if its weight outweighs its drag.
Gobi -
Yeah. Seems like people here have gone through phases of thinking the conductivity either helps, hurts, or doesn't matter.
Is a dive bomber basically combining the idea of wire line and a planner at the same time?
I assume you'll be using a level wind reel to handle the spectra and the weight. If that's the case, it may be a reasonable way to go.
Yes, I was talking about braided wire because of the ease in handling.
Here, when we fish some areas of the Race, the current can approach 4 to 5 knots. We will drift fish on a 3 ways using the current. 50 to 60 lb braid and weights up to 24oz. We can fish depths up to 200 ft and a bit more.
I have fished SS wire on the troll to depths a little over 100 ft. A large drail and taking the boat out of gear near the fish zone did the trick. As soon as we inched the throttle forward, the rods would load up.
There's thousands of tricks and things to try. When you find one that works, just take some time and perfect it.
Good luck, .. Lou
If you don't want to use a downriver, consider a Pink Lady or Dipsy Diver diving plane. Many people up here use them successfully.
So salmon trolling spectra should be fine. You can use a sinker release to your 4 pound ball then a length of mono to a flasher then another length to your lure/bait. If you're cheap like me ond don't want to cough up the cash for sinkers use a "snubber" instead of a sinker release. The snubber is like glorified surgical tubing with a nylon line down the middle that acts as a shock absorber. The 4 pound sinker will keep the salmon from jumping too so you lose less fish. I actually hate trolling for salmon almost nothing as boring and prefer to mooch but that's a different story. I like eating them so if it's a trolling bite so be it
Leader length can vary depending on the flasher or bait. Go to the local tackle store where you plan on fishing and ask there is your best bet to get what's working in that area. Depth water color forage all affect what's working.
Never seen anyone using wire or lead core but I think the commercial salmon guys use wire but that's a different ball game
Another angle is to hop on a passenger boat for a day and they know what works best because they do it every day
Quote from: STRIPER LOU on May 10, 2018, 07:18:13 PM
That's a very good question and I'm sure you'll get a bunch of answer's.
Spectra or braid will get down due to its thin diameter but more importantly is the weight or style of the lure. If your trolling a Stretch 30, a hundred feet of braid will get you down around 25 feet or so. Other lighter lures will require a trolling sinker or you might consider some type of Mo Jo rig depending on what your fishing for.
Lead core has it place as its much easier to work with. As you said, the jacket does create drag. There are some new micro thin lead cores that seem to work fairly well. The smaller diameter makes up for less weight and drag giving you almost as much depth. Lead core is great for light lures as the line itself is easy to work with and much easier to let out then with SS or monel. I use lead core almost exclusively for tube n worm. Overly long lengths of lead core really don't work well as you get to the point of diminishing returns and you end up with a sow belly or the line actually starts to raise back up at the lure end of the line.
Ah! The dreaded SS wire. Its a PITA but I wont leave the dock without 2 wire outfits. Once you get use to it, its a walk in the park. Its pretty consistent depth wise and the simple rule of thumb is 10 feet of depth for every 100 ft of line. Of course it does vary depending on lure style and weight but once its dialed in, it works.
Not great for a beginner though so if you have newbies on the boat, be prepared to spend some money.
Wire will also work harden and break if not used carefully. As in Jerking bucktails or parachute rigs, if you keep stroking the rod in the same place, the line can become springy and break.
A way to avoid this when working chutes is to turn your clicker on and set the drag so that every time you stroke the rod, you hear a click. Its a place where the drag is set correctly for a strike, but lets out and inch or two of line on every stroke of the rod. It simply equates to not jerking on the wire in the same spot all the time. Unless I get hung up or something goes wrong, I can get a serious season of fishing with the same spool of wire.
Monel is nicer to work with but more expensive.
Braid is the cheapest, lead core #2, #3 SS, and monel is the most expensive.
I make marked wire and sell over 10,000 feet every year. The season hasn't even started and I'm completely sold out.
Is wire the best? Nope! But a lot of guys like it!
Hope this helps in your choice.
Have a great day, .. Lou
Lou while on the subject of using wire I just finished a Penn 80 a person used in the Bahama's for high speed Wahoo trolling.
The wire is very flexible and super shiny. It will kink if not wound on property.
Is this wire SS or Monel?
Thanks,
Keith
Keith, Its more than likely monel. A bit expensive for my blood.
...........Lou
A planer rigged to a heavy reel spooled with spectra will get your line down, or you could use a dedicated stubbie/planer rod, or handline tied to a cleat, and clip the trolling line to the planner line. I use #64 rubber band attached to a small carabeener clipped to the planer line. This allows resetting the line w/o retrieving the planer.
I don't like extra crap hanging off of the line with a big fish on it.
John
First, thanks again everyone for all of the help.
Lou -
Sounds like I should try either the separate rod with spectra as a down rigger or the multi-strand wire mainline.
Not sure what a "drail" is either but I appreciation all of your insight and expertise.
Akfish -
I am definitely considering using a diver, but the deepest I could find was the double deep size.
My impression is that it will still not get me down to the vicinity of 200 feet deep.
Sheridan -
I've had some success fishing on friends boats with down riggers, so, I think I have some idea of baits / terminal rigging etc.
So, like you mentioned, I think the commercial guys use wire, and some people have adopted the idea for recreational.
They are fishing like a 6/0 senator filled with wire line tied to a heavy cannon ball with no guides on the rod and pulley at the tip.
Since you can fish 2 hooks recreationally, they use 2 x 1 hook leaders and clip them to the wire line with long line clips.
I think the idea is to either get multiple hookups on the same line or be able to split the water column with only one line.
But this is confounding the idea of my original question of just how to troll the deepest.
John -
The deepest diver I have seen was the double deep six but I don't think it will get me down to around 200 feet.
Definitely want to try the dedicated stubbie / planer rod, though I was planning on just using like a 6 pound cannonball.
I agree that not having extra stuff on the line while fighting a fish is great, but there is also the hassle of having 2 lines in the water.
And, as eluded to in my reply to Sheridan, there is also the advantage of the wire line fishing 2 leaders from a single line.
(We have a 1 line per person limit when fishing for salmon)
Sorry to be confounding, we were fishing south of conception so we would troll 4-6 rods for 2 of us. We got the best depth with 50lb braid and 3lb of lead.
If the fish were really deep we troll at 1.2 knots, seemed to get a little deeper that way.
Haven't had salmon down here in awhile, the wire line sounds interesting,hope you get it sorted out
Sheridan -
Please don't be sorry. I mean that I am confounded. Not that you are confusing things.
So, my understanding of the salmon regs is we have a 1 line + 2 hook + 4 pound lead limit per person.
The 4 pound lead limit is exempt if using a down rigger / a second line that releases.
In Santa Cruz, it seems like the fish are often caught pretty deep (hugging the bottom from 150-300 feet deep).
So, I started off interested in making a down rigger for when I go on boats that don't have a down rigger.
I was thinking just short / heavy rod with a level wind reel filled with spectra combined with release clips.
This has the obvious advantage of not having the weight on the line when you hook up and not loosing the weight either.
However, it obviously also includes the hassle of having 2 lines in the water at the same time.
At present, I have also never heard of anyone rigging multiple leaders to the same line that is released.
(Not stacking multiple lines on the same down rigger which counts as 2 lines and would require 2 people legally.)
The "wire line" option removes the hassle of having 2 lines in the water at the same time.
It also presents the option for 1 person to fish 1 line with 2 leaders at the same time legally.
So, it had an extra appeal so I was interested in exploring it and how to best get it down deep enough.
In an attempt to simplify, I started my original question of just how to troll deeper (spectra, lead core, wire, etc.).
Now, just thinking aloud, I wonder if you could rig up to use 2 leaders from a single mainline combined with a down rigger?
Maybe just a glorified hi/low rig but clipping the end of the line to the down rigger release clip instead of tying on a weight?
Love it up there, was up the last weekend for my grandsons birthday. When I'd go salmon fishing up there I was relegated to cattle boats and mooching.
Hope you give it a whirl and try some some different setups, sounds feasible,just need to figure out the particulars. Maybe take a look at how the commercial trollers set up their gear.
Roy, another rod is not necessary. Just get some 1" EMT and bend it up so it fits the rod holder. You can make it any length and angle that makes you happy.
Best part is it will cost you next to nothing. Secure your reel on it and your good to go. Keep it together with the reel as a unit and move it from one boat to another.
.........Lou
Sheridan -
I think the current wire line technique is as close to replicating what is done by the commercial trollers as possible while staying meeting the recreational regulations.
I think their biggest challenge is getting deep enough with the 4 pound weight limit, hence my original question.
Hope to fish with you again at some point, either up here or down in Santa Barbara.
Lou -
I already got another short/heavy rod, but is EMT just electrical conduit pipe/tubing? How do you add an eye to the end of it?
I could see how you could bend it to fit in a rod holder and act as a down rigger rod and you could easily clamp a reel to it.
Thanks again for all of the help everyone.
I know many folks who troll salmon with this technique on Monterey Bay very successfully. You cannot use a release clip. Limited to 4lns max. Up to two leaders you can stack them however you want and when you hook up you reel up to your leader clip and hand line the fish to the boat. The advantage? You get to fish two separate rigs off one line I guess. Most of the people I know use a good braided line on a large level wind reel. Pulling in 4lbs of lead is not a lot of fun especially at depth. But it's productive and people who use it seem to stick with it.
Use the em tee conduit idea 💡 and add a simple pully idea like on a Scotty cheap o d rigger. It can swivel and turn with the cable. No more excuses.👌. You are wasting time.🚣♀️
Have you considered motor mooching?
It seems like four pounds of lead would overwhelm any density differences in 200 feet of spectra, lead core and monel.
-steve
David -
Thanks for the insight. The could people I have talked to who use this setup use wire line.
I have heard that people still have some issues getting deep enough, hence the original question.
You said you have heard of people just using spectra as the mainline?
I think the other main advantage is when you don't have a down rigger and don't feel like using sinker releases...
Gary -
Thanks for the tips.
Keta -
I like the idea of mooching in general and getting to fight the fish without all that stuff (flasher etc.) on the line.
However, it seems like almost everyone here trolls, and mooching has a whole additional set of rules with it.
Steve,
So your impression is just straight spectra tied to the 4 pound lead would get me the deepest?
I wasn't sure, I just kind of assumed that some guys use a wire mainline tied to the weight to try and get deeper...
200 ft of monel will weigh about three quarters of a pound. Spectra is about neutrally buoyant so 200 ft would weigh nothing in water. If the extra 3/4 lb is worth the gripe of using wire line then go for it.
-steve
Steve,
Thanks for the reality check that we are arguing about 3/4 of a pound for spectra verse monel.
Guessing the spectra is thinner too, so, even less of an actual difference.
If you're talking using spectra for your downrigger that would be the best and smaller diameter the better. If you're using a four pound lead use Twenty or more spectra. Assuming that you are trolling.
Forgot the wire for light lead recreational trolling. All that for two cents? ;)