I was looking at an old Surfmaster w/plastic spool at a local consignment shop yesterday in fairly good shape with two or three noticeable issues. Memory is failing me now, but I believe it was the narrower 100, although could have been a 150. I first saw the reel earlier this year and passed on it. The seller now has it marked down to $40 and I'm thinking of making offer for a bit less.
The only external problems I could see with the reel were as follows:
--The front foot of the stand is twisted at a diagonal angle, maybe 30 to 40 degrees. I think it would be preferable if the original stand could be saved, especially since it's made for a clamp.
--The quick release take-apart knob to remove the side plate was stuck tight & wouldn't budge so I couldn't take a look inside. I'm thinking some corrosionx might loosen it, but I'm sure someone here knows the best way.
Other than the two issues above, there is some general verdigris and corrosion spots on the exposed plated parts, which I can deal with and eventually look for shinier replacement parts.
The handle cranked nicely w/ no gear noise, drag worked smoothly, spool spun nice and freely, and the black side plates (I assume bakelite) looked good. I think the internals are probably in great shape, although the drag knob seemed to have a small range of adjustment.
I would appreciate any ideas on re-bending the stand and freeing up the take-apart knob, or any other thoughts some of you might have. Thanks.
The surfmaster is a great reel.
My suggestion is to walk away from that one.
It would take a good amount of torque to twist a narrow stand.
That is probaly why you can't get the takedown screw to work, The frame is torqued as well.
It is alway a gamble buying a used reel, but with those tell tale signs. It might be fine, but then again, it might be a parts reel. I would look for a better one. JMO
You can get a new stand from Mystic...and yes...corrosionX should free up that take-apart screw. If not, try a 15-30 minute vinegar soak, as you mentioned seeing some corrosion. Vinegar works very well at freeing corroded parts. 8)
On a quick-take-apart reel such as a surfmaster, Jigmaster, or Squidder — the stand likely was not distorted by a big fish — it was jammed against something which with a combination of possible corrosion and frame twist — has caused the take-apart mechanism to jam tight.
It is just a game of percentages...
Plastic spool, bent stand, possible frame torque — unknown innards...
IMO, it is a $15 or $20 reel that you may luck out on — or you may spend another $40 not counting your time — trying to get it fishable.
Best,
Fred
Thanks. Yeah, it might be a risk. I still have an itch to take another look at it and maybe take along a few tools & oil to see if I can get that take-apart screw loose to check everything out better. All appears perfectly square & aligned between the posts and rings and no gaps between the rings & plates, but I'm not looking to end up with a parts reel here and maybe should take the advice to back away from it.
Quote from: wfjord on September 29, 2018, 07:26:59 PM
The handle cranked nicely w/ no gear noise, drag worked smoothly, spool spun nice and freely
Those are the clues that tell me not too much is wrong inside. Those take-apart sides are famous for being stuck. I've seen them stuck fast on otherwise mint reels. Still...40 bucks is a large gamble...I'd offer $20 and see if I could steal it! 8)
Lay a thick cloth over the take apart screw and loosen with pliers.
It's not that uncommon for one end of tongue to be bent on a seat. Just remove the seat and lay on flat surface with towel over it and and tap with hammer. It's just plated brass and should bend back without much effort
Ted
Quote from: mo65 on September 30, 2018, 01:17:01 AM
Quote from: wfjord on September 29, 2018, 07:26:59 PM
The handle cranked nicely w/ no gear noise, drag worked smoothly, spool spun nice and freely
Those are the clues that tell me not too much is wrong inside. Those take-apart sides are famous for being stuck. I've seen them stuck fast on otherwise mint reels. Still...40 bucks is a large gamble...I'd offer $20 and see if I could steal it! 8)
That's encouraging. And $20 is a lot more painless than 40 if the seller will go for it. I was originally thinking of offering 30.
Is that take-apart screw on the surfmasters the same part as the one on the squidders or would it be a hard to find part if it needed replacing?
Quote from: Maxed Out on September 30, 2018, 01:23:57 AM
Lay a thick cloth over the take apart screw and loosen with pliers.
It's not that uncommon for one end of tongue to be bent on a seat. Just remove the seat and lay on flat surface with towel over it and and tap with hammer. It's just plated brass and should bend back without much effort
Ted
Good ideas. Tapping the metal, too---and that's right, it's just plated brass!
I noticed the star drag on that reel seemed to have a fairly narrow adjustment range. Is that normal on those reels?
Sounds from your description like it might be an ok parts reel, for when you get a better one. I'd offer 'em $10 and go up to $15. Whatever you do have fun with it!
Is that take-apart screw on the surfmasters the same part as the one on the squidders or would it be a hard to find part if it needed replacing?
Yes, it is the same part — generally part #200 — my Penn bins show this part as TA-200. There are (4)
pieces to the assembly. The thumb screw, a spring, a bushing, and a nut. The entire assembly is less than $6.
The more modern part numbers still use the 200 — but the number is 129-200, I think.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on September 30, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Is that take-apart screw on the surfmasters the same part as the one on the squidders or would it be a hard to find part if it needed replacing?
Yes, it is the same part — generally part #200 — my Penn bins show this part as TA-200. There are (4)
pieces to the assembly. The thumb screw, a spring, a bushing, and a nut. The entire assembly is less than $6.
The more modern part numbers still use the 200 — but the number is 129-200, I think.
Best,
Fred
Thanks...
Quote from: wfjord on October 01, 2018, 12:51:45 AM
Quote from: foakes on September 30, 2018, 04:59:19 AM
Is that take-apart screw on the surfmasters the same part as the one on the squidders or would it be a hard to find part if it needed replacing?
Yes, it is the same part — generally part #200 — my Penn bins show this part as TA-200. There are (4)
pieces to the assembly. The thumb screw, a spring, a bushing, and a nut. The entire assembly is less than $6.
The more modern part numbers still use the 200 — but the number is 129-200, I think.
Best,
Fred
Fred sounds like you have a Surfmaster with the course thread, switch out the gear sleeve for a fine thread, or go stainless fine thread and never worry again. I have done my Surfmasters that way and I prefer the wider range of adjustment over full off-some drag-full on.
Thanks...
Quote from: wfjord on September 29, 2018, 07:26:59 PM
I was looking at an old Surfmaster w/plastic spool at a local consignment shop yesterday in fairly good shape with two or three noticeable issues. Memory is failing me now, but I believe it was the narrower 100, although could have been a 150. I first saw the reel earlier this year and passed on it. The seller now has it marked down to $40 and I'm thinking of making offer for a bit less.
The only external problems I could see with the reel were as follows:
--The front foot of the stand is twisted at a diagonal angle, maybe 30 to 40 degrees. I think it would be preferable if the original stand could be saved, especially since it's made for a clamp.
--The quick release take-apart knob to remove the side plate was stuck tight & wouldn't budge so I couldn't take a look inside. I'm thinking some corrosionx might loosen it, but I'm sure someone here knows the best way.
Other than the two issues above, there is some general verdigris and corrosion spots on the exposed plated parts, which I can deal with and eventually look for shinier replacement parts.
The handle cranked nicely w/ no gear noise, drag worked smoothly, spool spun nice and freely, and the black side plates (I assume bakelite) looked good. I think the internals are probably in great shape, although the drag knob seemed to have a small range of adjustment.
I would appreciate any ideas on re-bending the stand and freeing up the take-apart knob, or any other thoughts some of you might have. Thanks.
Some earlier Surfmaster have different rings that at times won't work with the newer plates. On the newer plates, the pins are positioned a little forward, making the thumb screw hard to engage.
If you have others, it is just a matter of swapping the plates until you get one that fits.
I have drilled mine a little so it would rotate a little more.
I have a pic here somewhere, but can't find it.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2018, 11:09:08 PM
Some earlier Surfmaster have different rings that at times won't work with the newer plates. On the newer plates, the pins are positioned a little forward, making the thumb screw hard to engage.
If you have others, it is just a matter of swapping the plates until you get one that fits.
I have drilled mine a little so it would rotate a little more.
I have a pic here somewhere, but can't find it.
Sal
I'd like to have seen the photo. Not sure, but I think I know what you mean---you either widened the opening in the ring for the take-apart pin or extended the slot in the ring (or both)?
Actually, in the reel I was looking at the take-apart screw would only move about a quarter turn to the left (after I put pliers to it), but beyond that it wouldn't budge further or pull out and I didn't want to force it any further. From what I've read it's suppose to make 3 counter-clockwise turns and pull out.
I'm hoping to get back over to that shop this week and try getting that side plate off to take a peek inside. I've never owned a Surfmaster, but it's been on my short list.
Quote from: kmstorm64 on October 01, 2018, 06:50:35 PM
Fred sounds like you have a Surfmaster with the course thread, switch out the gear sleeve for a fine thread, or go stainless fine thread and never worry again. I have done my Surfmasters that way and I prefer the wider range of adjustment over full off-some drag-full on.
I guess that would also require getting a fine thread drag star?
Quote from: wfjord on October 02, 2018, 12:11:55 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2018, 11:09:08 PM
Some earlier Surfmaster have different rings that at times won't work with the newer plates. On the newer plates, the pins are positioned a little forward, making the thumb screw hard to engage.
If you have others, it is just a matter of swapping the plates until you get one that fits.
I have drilled mine a little so it would rotate a little more.
I have a pic here somewhere, but can't find it.
Sal
I'd like to have seen the photo. Not sure, but I think I know what you mean---you either widened the opening in the ring for the take-apart pin or extended the slot in the ring (or both)?
Actually the take-apart screw would only move about a quarter turn, but beyond that it wouldn't budge or pull out. From what I've read it's suppose to make 3 counter clockwise turns and pull out.
I'm hoping to get back over to that shop this week and try getting that side plate off to take a peek inside. I've never owned a Surfmaster, but it's been on my short list.
Extended the slot with the tip of the bit, it didn't take much.
Sal
Went back for another look at the Surfmaster last week. It's a 150. I squirted some ReelX down the take-apart screw shaft and it opened up immediately. Internals all looked very good, almost no grease on anything & no visible wear on gears. Nothing torqued or twisted (other than the stand).
There is a good bit of external corrosion on the stand & posts, and some on the rings to a lesser extent. So I thought the reel might be a fun challenge and could imagine its possibilities... so after making an offer to the seller I took it home feeling moderately comfortable about it.
In closer observation the bent foot on the stand was bent downward on one side and I was able to tap it back into virtually perfect shape (but I'm not going to use it). Soaked the stand & bars in vinegar for about a half hour, but the corrosion was too far through the chrome and left too much brass showing.
*Miraculously I found a new stand (#30-66) and four shiny new posts from a local guy about 5 miles away at a very reasonable price. No rings, though.
The metal rings are okay and have some corrosion, though not as bad as the stand & bars, but I can live with them. Maybe someday I'll find some shinier replacements at a decent price.
Have some carbon fiber washers and ordered a delrin under-gear washer from Smoothdrag. This reel is quite light and should be a lot of fun to cast.
Spool was loaded with old green Dacron.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_13_10_18_10_23_33_256301620.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_13_10_18_10_19_01_25601483.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_13_10_18_10_23_44_256301719.jpeg)
You did good. Surfmasters are solid but that bent stand is scary. It's hard to do that much damage without tweeking the alignment. The replacement stand was a good find.
Pull a few yards of line off the spool and see if you can stretch it. Dacron won't stretch but nylon will. The line sure looks like sun-bleached Ashaway braided nylon in the photos.
-steve
Nice! From onea the pictures it looked like the ring was tweaked a bit by the bent stand. Then again, the tail-plate looks to be in great shape. Probably sat around for quite awhile after the stand got bent.
Quote from: oc1 on October 14, 2018, 10:19:51 AM
You did good. Surfmasters are solid but that bent stand is scary. It's hard to do that much damage without tweeking the alignment. The replacement stand was a good find.
Pull a few yards of line off the spool and see if you can stretch it. Dacron won't stretch but nylon will. The line sure looks like sun-bleached Ashaway braided nylon in the photos.
-steve
Steve, you're right, the line will stretch. I don't really know anything about braided nylon or how the diameter for a given test would compare to Dacron. Feels like it might be in the 25-30 lb range. Other than faded with some stains, it still seems to be in pretty good shape. Do you use any braided nylon?
Quote from: Gfish on October 14, 2018, 02:48:38 PM
Nice! From onea the pictures it looked like the ring was tweaked a bit by the bent stand. Then again, the tail-plate looks to be in great shape. Probably sat around for quite awhile after the stand got bent.
In regards to the stand, the bend is on the front right side of the foot (tongue?) and it's bent downward rather than upward. I'm not able to see any tweeking, dimples, or structural abnormalities to the rings on or off the reel other than a very slight outline in the chrome where the edges of the stand were screwed on. No spaces or gaps between the metal and side plates anywhere I can see. Likewise with the spool --the spool flanges fit close and evenly within the rings on both sides and free-spool is good and smooth. I'll look again and measure the rings to make sure, but if something did get changed it's not affecting any function.
Good buy...that reel sounds to be just about as good as I figured it was...enjoy! 8)
Guts look good in that reel. I usually keep those brass washers and replace the drag washers with carbon fiber washers and the Delrin of course.
You have the good gears, the reel should last another couple of generations...enjoy it!
Sal
Sal, I'm glad to hear that about the gears. I thought the pinion might be stainless and wasn't sure what kind of steel(?) the main was made of. I did smooth up the brass washers with 1500 grit sandpaper and learned about the delrin from you!
A correction about the issue with the stand ---it appears it was not actually "twisted" as I originally thought, but just bent downward on that right front side. Several properly directed whacks with a hard wooden mallet and punch on the underside corner of the right front edge leveled it back up perfectly without changing the position of the left front side. If it had actually been twisted both sides would probably have been out of level. Will hang on to it as an emergency back up. I don't know how it originally got bent, but I'm thinking maybe it got dropped or impacted somehow on that corner without damage to the rest of the reel. I don't think a fish did it.
BTW Mo, the baking soda and liquid dish detergent work great!
Took a break from the Surfmaster as I had other projects and work pulling me away, so I'm finally following up here :)...
I got the 150 cleaned up and back together and overall it's a nice reel ---structurally sound, super free-spool, smooth cranking and, other than the click of the dog, absolutely silent. The tolerances between the spool flanges and metal rings are so tight that I could load it with 20# spectra and be okay, but if I go with spectra I'd probably go with 30# and a mono topshot. I think I'm gonna like it a lot.
The main functional improvement it needs is a wider drag adjustment range. It's set up with three HT-100s in the stack and a delrin under washer. As it stands the drag star will make slightly less than a half turn around. With the star wide open it has about 3 lbs of drag.
Using the old stock sleeve, it'll work okay as it is, but I'd rather it be much better. Tried flipping the drag spring, then replaced it with a delrin washer, no change. Not surprised, heck there's only a couple thread widths or less of space for adjustment. Thought about shortening the spacer slightly to see if it helps, or just have the spacer sitting directly on top of the slotted brass washer. For the time being I was hoping to make the old sleeve work.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_25_2585795.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_26_258591777.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_25_258571724.jpeg)
**A previous poster mentioned a stainless steel sleeve with finer thread. I'd like to know more about it, and also a stainless dog and a star with matching threads ---*which are best and *who makes them.
Quote from: wfjord on November 06, 2018, 10:21:14 PM
**A previous poster mentioned a stainless steel sleeve with finer thread. I'd like to know more about it, and also a stainless dog and a star with matching threads ---*which are best and *who makes them.
this... https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Custom/98-155AT.aspx
or this... https://www.cortezconversions.com/product-page/penn-98-155-ss-main-gear-sleeve
steve
It looks to me like the wavy washer on top of the stack is upside down. Also try removing the wavy washer from between the star & handle. Rudy
Quote from: wfjord on November 06, 2018, 10:20:20 PM
Took a break from the Surfmaster as I had other projects and work pulling me away, so I'm finally following up here :)...
I got the 150 cleaned up and back together and overall it's a nice reel ---structurally sound, super free spool, smooth cranking and, other than the click of the dog, absolutely silent. The tolerances between the spool flanges and metal rings are so tight that I could load it with 20# spectra and be okay, but if I go with spectra I'd probably go with 30# and a mono topshot. I think I'm gonna like it a lot.
The main functional improvement it needs is a wider drag adjustment range. It's set up with three HT-100s in the stack and a delrin under washer. As it stands the drag star will make slightly less than a half turn around. With the star wide open, it has about 3 lbs of drag.
Using the old stock sleeve, it'll work okay as it is, but I'd rather it be much better. Tried flipping the drag spring, then replaced it with a delrin washer, no change. Not surprised, heck there's only a couple thread widths or less of space for adjustment. Thought about shortening the spacer slightly to see if it helps, or just have the spacer sitting directly on top of the slotted brass washer. For the time being I was hoping to make the old sleeve work.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_25_2585795.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_26_258591777.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/25/medium_17264_06_11_18_1_42_25_258571724.jpeg)
If you are looking for more drag adjustment range, you will need a shorter spacer sleeve, or you could shave your own.
As long as you have about 1/8" from where I'm showing on the pic, you should be ok.
(https://i.imgur.com/mzWzo0F.jpg)
you could sand the sleeve on a belt sander or a piece of sandpaper, if you don't have one, it doesn't take much.
if you didn't want to mess with it, you could get one here.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/9-60.aspx
if you scroll down, you will see the few options, it is good to have a few different sizes in hand.
You could also go with one of these, I use them on my surfmasters and yes it will fit, but it is tight...not a bad thing.
https://squareup.com/store/pro-challenger-llc/item/spacing-sleeve
It does work itself in after using it a few times.
Sal
Quote from: swill88 on November 06, 2018, 11:15:38 PM
this... https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Custom/98-155AT.aspx
or this... https://www.cortezconversions.com/product-page/penn-98-155-ss-main-gear-sleeve
steve
Steve,
Thanks for those links. Good options and I'll be looking into them further.
Quote from: RowdyW on November 06, 2018, 11:34:24 PM
It looks to me like the wavy washer on top of the stack is upside down. Also try removing the wavy washer from between the star & handle. Rudy
Rudy,
Yep, that washer is upside down. I had flipped it just to see if it might make a difference, which it definitely didn't. There isn't a washer of any kind between the star & handle, but I see how it sorta looks that way.
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 06, 2018, 11:36:52 PM
If you are looking for more drag adjustment range, you will need a shorter spacer sleeve, or you could shave your own.
As long as you have about 1/8" from where I'm showing on the pic, you should be ok.
(https://i.imgur.com/mzWzo0F.jpg)
you could sand the sleeve on a belt sander or a piece of sandpaper, if you don't have one, it doesn't take much.
if you didn't want to mess with it, you could get one here.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/9-60.aspx
if you scroll down, you will see the few options, it is good to have a few different sizes in hand.
You could also go with one of these, I use them on my surfmasters and yes it will fit, but it is tight...not a bad thing.
https://squareup.com/store/pro-challenger-llc/item/spacing-sleeve
It does work itself in after using it a few times.
Sal
Sal,
Thanks for the tips and links. I'll be looking into all those. Having some assorted spacer sizes is a good idea, too.
I took out the HT-100s and replaced them with some thinner Carbontex washers I'd ordered from SmoothDrag for my Mag 10. I replaced the delrin washer with one, too (but may switch it back). Overall a more noticeable improvement and allows the star to be adjusted more than an additional quarter turn, with the spring washer correctly set under the spacer. And the drag is smoother. However it could still be better so my next move will be a slightly shorter spacer.
I need to study further on the upgraded stainless gear sleeves, dogs and stars.
Once the new drag washers have been compressed and broken in, wouldn't you need additional or stronger belleville washers to get more range in the star?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 07, 2018, 07:00:07 AM
Once the new drag washers have been compressed and broken in, wouldn't you need additional or stronger belleville washers to get more range in the star?
-steve
I don't know. The set of Carbontex washers I have in it now are so thin and stiff it's hard to see how they could compress much.
I have almost no experience with belleville washers, but I'm not opposed to trying them if they'll be an improvement.
The only reel I've ever had that has them is an old Shakespeare Sigma Supra 80 baitcaster ---I sort of recall it having either four or six bellevilles and I removed one or two that were broken up when I serviced it about a year ago.
Quote from: wfjord on November 06, 2018, 10:21:14 PM
**A previous poster mentioned a stainless steel sleeve with finer thread. I'd like to know more about it, and also a stainless dog and a star with matching threads ---*which are best and *who makes them.
I was the poster who said I make my own SS drag sleeves, however I do not make gear sleeves others here do offer them, I find the finer thread gear sleeve gives more adjustment....................Joe
Quote from: Reel 224 on November 07, 2018, 11:47:47 PM
Quote from: wfjord on November 06, 2018, 10:21:14 PM
**A previous poster mentioned a stainless steel sleeve with finer thread. I'd like to know more about it, and also a stainless dog and a star with matching threads ---*which are best and *who makes them.
I was the poster who said I make my own SS drag sleeves, however I do not make gear sleeves others here do offer them, I find the finer thread gear sleeve gives more adjustment....................Joe
Hi Joe,
Thanks. A finer thread gear sleeve looks like the best route, especially if I decided to do further customizing, but also enjoy finding out how well I can make the reel perform with its stock internals!
Yes you can..................Joe
I thought belleville washer was jus another name for the wavy washers that go )(
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 08, 2018, 07:50:34 AM
I thought belleville washer was jus another name for the wavy washers that go )(
-steve
The belleville washers on the Shakespeare reel I have are cone shaped, not wavy. Looking back at the schematic there's a group of 6 of them in the drag stack listed as belleville springs. That's the only time I've found them on one of my reels. I also have some large ones on my lawn tractor.
here's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belleville_washer
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=5CbkW5LIG5KY_QbF_JyACg&q=belleville+drag+washers&oq=belle&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39j0l9.10306.13945..16443...2.0..3.3963.9561.0j1j1j2j7-1j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0.utE_xrWuCQk
Good post, and good explanation..........................Joe
Quote from: wfjord on November 08, 2018, 12:33:00 PM
The belleville washers on the Shakespeare reel I have are cone shaped, not wavy. Looking back at the schematic there's a group of 6 of them in the drag stack listed as belleville springs. That's the only time I've found them on one of my reels.
Got it. I've called them the wrong thing several times here at AT. Thank you.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 08, 2018, 08:27:00 PM
Quote from: wfjord on November 08, 2018, 12:33:00 PM
The belleville washers on the Shakespeare reel I have are cone shaped, not wavy. Looking back at the schematic there's a group of 6 of them in the drag stack listed as belleville springs. That's the only time I've found them on one of my reels.
Got it. I've called them the wrong thing several times here at AT. Thank you.
-steve
To keep it straight in own thoughts, I call the "cone" shaped ones bellvile, as in kinda bell shaped(symetrically-convex ?) and the other ones wavey or spring washers.
Wouldn't the belleville style(cone) distribute pressure more evenly than the wavey ones?
Quote from: Gfish on November 08, 2018, 09:31:28 PM
Wouldn't the belleville style(cone) distribute pressure more evenly than the wavey ones?
They look like they should. Something I've noticed is bellevilles are usually reserved for the larger more powerful reels, while the smaller light duty reels have the wave or spring washers. 8)
I don't think so Mike. There are heaver belleville's though....................Joe