Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing Rods => Fishing Rods => Topic started by: gstours on October 21, 2018, 04:14:35 PM

Title: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 21, 2018, 04:14:35 PM
   As a winter project I want to replace the guides on a a pretty good spin rod and wondered if I can get some advice here before I order some parts for other rod repairs.    But there's more room for improvement,   and I got time to make some changes.
  Typically the first guide is too small and general I move it forward as much as possible. on a 2 pc rod.
      Are the "Tidalwave",  "Airwave, Microwave" type guides worthwhile as they use a different line control concept?  What is your opinions out there?   The first guide theory seems to be in controlling the coils coming off the spool, and reducing line slap.   The running guides idea is much like a casting type rod from there up to the tip.  (20mm and 6mm combo guide as the stripper, then 5-6mm guides to the tip)
   Any info from your experiences would be appreciated.  I know some of you have experimented a lot with guide sizes and placement.
  Thanks for chiming in.  Keep you line tight. ;)
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: philaroman on October 21, 2018, 06:11:00 PM
1) always thought this made sense, not only for buying off the rack, but also for builders' guide selection/spacing:
http://anglersresource.net/WhattoLookforinaTopShelfSpinningRod.aspx (http://anglersresource.net/WhattoLookforinaTopShelfSpinningRod.aspx)
...esp., the part about matching a reel w/ correct spool shaft angle & diameter at lip

2) moving a too-small stripper forward may help, but not as good as a replacement w/ bigger ring farther from the blank (provided it lines up w/ subsequent reduction guides)

3) 20mm stripper sounds way too small, unless it's a L/UL for a small spinner
(or, convenient tube storage is more important than casting distance)
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oc1 on October 21, 2018, 06:56:38 PM
You have probably seen this Gary:
http://anglersresource.net/Blog/tabid/627/entryid/9/BUILDING-THE-KR-CONCEPT-SPINNING-ROD.aspx (http://anglersresource.net/Blog/tabid/627/entryid/9/BUILDING-THE-KR-CONCEPT-SPINNING-ROD.aspx)

Old reels are canted differently from newer reels.

They are getting away from the very large striper guides saying it is more important to get the line under control early so it is slapping fewer guides as it moves toward the tip.

-steve
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 22, 2018, 06:51:21 AM
Been doing a lot of work involving the Fuji KR Concept both on shorter spinning rods, and very long surf rods for spinning reels; the result is that when you get it right it is awesome. Both in distance improvement and power available in the blank. On some of our very long surf rods, where we have used an adaptation of the KR Concept, we have seen a 10% improvement in distance attainable of the same blank with more traditional guide systems.

To the point now, where we are pretty much not building traditional guide systems, unless the client absolutely insists.

Hope that helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 22, 2018, 05:21:15 PM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and links,  there's more going on in the proper layout than I was aware of,  even the reel spools angle can effect the performance.  Never thought of this?   I've got a lot to learn.💁‍♂️🐠
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 23, 2018, 05:01:52 PM
  Before consulting you folks I had thought of some of these variables.  I even thought of reducing the amount of guides to prevent friction and line slap ,  butt Fuji research showed just the opposite thinking ,   for casting rods the more the merrier it seems,  butt spinners are a different animal.... The testing, diagrams and pictures Fuji showed will help to show me the way. 
   Is it fair to say that mounting the reel on the rod and using a square across the spool face will point you the rod builder to where the first choke guide should be?   Generally it seems there are 2-3 "choke reduction " guides and maybe try to line the centerline if the reel face to the center guide?    Just wondering?   My thinking was to use really large guides here,  like 25-30mm on a 9 ft rod then small 6-7mm guides to the tip,  Butt it seems like you want to control the line mostly at the first guide (choke point?)  from reading the Fuji theorys and research.
   Secondly there needs to be a standard test used for casting distance efficiency for my work it seems?
Thirdly it seems obvious that the low rider guides are the best choice for reducing line slap and then small runner guides to smooth the flow and distribute the power and reduce torque when the rod is loaded with the prize.    I,m going to do something,  just mot sure what yet. ;)
     Thanks for the Fuji link too.  Thats been a eye opener in theorys.   Where do yoou reccomend buying the KR Concept guides.  Are they marked as another product??  Thanks for any replys. 8)   
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 24, 2018, 05:05:24 AM
On the Angler's Resource site there is an awful lot of information on the KR Concept, as well as a plug in guide for spacings for particular rods. Their concept seems to work groups of ring sizes based on line weight/strength/size, so you very much need to determine your final usage scheme for the rod before you start building.


There are also some 'standard recipes' for complete rods on the Fuji Japan site, though the language option is not available, the spacings are in cms. These are a very good 'starting point', we used some of these to develop our own spacing for very long surf rods, but once you get a fuller understanding of what the scheme is aiming at, you can adapt.

Low Riders are more designed for long surf rods, rather than shorter spinning  rods, but the concept of using small ringed guides, positioned high away from the blank is very similar to the KR Concept.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: droppedit on October 24, 2018, 11:29:32 PM
Gary, this might help for finding the guides http://www.anglersworkshop.com/K-Series and I found this video very informative, but you've probably found it by now.
Hope your project works out for you.


Dave



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQiIScKJ_wU
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Rivverrat on October 25, 2018, 12:04:59 AM
Gary regarding the airwave type guides with the smaller center insert. If these are laid out right I believe they can be a benefit. Are they any better than the Fugi KR Jeri describes ? I dont think so. With the Fugi I believe your getting a better over all quality guide.

Most all guide spacing charts offered are.... just a sec.... let me pull up a bit of my diplomatic nature.... just crap !  

At best they are a generic guide. Dont know what rod you have but if it's factory wrapped rod I can almost guarantee the guide spacing isn't the best fort it's full rang of use. "YOU" taking your time & using tape, surgical tubing etc. & loading the rod making adjustments to the guides achieving  a better guide lay out that will cause the rod to react much better with a fish on than the factory job... Jeff    

Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 25, 2018, 03:48:14 PM
Thanks for more information,  I'm learning more about this everyday, nice never seen the Fiji kr video from the anglers workshop,  I've bought a lot of stuff from them, butt never got really that involved with spinning rods.   Thanks 🙏 again.    You folks are very friendly.🎣
    I will post some of my findings soon. 
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Newell Nut on October 25, 2018, 09:59:50 PM
Your current layout there shows you need to start with a taller guide as you can see. Most of mine will start around 26" from the end of the reel seat on most spinners. Usually use 7 guides for a seven footer and 8 for an 8 footer on spinners.

Dwight
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 25, 2018, 10:59:23 PM
 :)   All i can add is that you tape the guides on first .  load test the rod to get  an idea on proper guide placement .  I like one extra guide per foot , 8 on 7 foot.
   Stripper guide for me depends on braid verses mono , braid i use a smaller stripper .     Test cast and watch the line , it is amazing how moving some guides make a big difference .       ::) ::)   Some sticks just like a lot  of guides , 9 guides including tip top in 40 inches  7 foot overall.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 26, 2018, 02:10:52 AM
     I just got finished tapping these guides on for a spinner set up  .   8 foot stick  same size tip top as the 7 footer ,yet it only took 7 guides including the tip top.
  Loads up nice for line lay  , Smallish 25 mm stripper . I will do some test casting in the next day or so. With braid and mono spool also with a 2 inch and a 2 and 3/4 spool diameter.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 26, 2018, 06:27:49 AM
 My photo of the rod reel n straight edge is a penn 4500 that has never casted well, I like the reel butt,  others I've got cast waay better?  After the axis straight edge test it shows to me that the reel frame, and spool are aimed too low, causing line friction.  If it was pointed at the center of the first guide this would be demiinished.  That's a start point.   Soon I'll show measurements of other reels.   Just saying.🎣
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Cor on October 26, 2018, 07:13:10 AM
Instinctively most of us want to believe that guide placement will make a huge difference to the cast....I've never been able to prove that to myself and am sceptical about a lot of the theories.   I don't use spinning reels, but having watched guys sometimes battling with windknots and some casting further then others with similar rods and do think that with spinning tackle guides placement for casting may be more important, but then so seems to be the amount of line and type of line on the reel.

I always tape my guides to the blank, then load the rod to see how the line flows over the blank like oldmanjoe suggests.   In that way you can get perfect alignment of the number, height and size of guides required.   I even go and cast with the rod with taped guides.

When casting with old braid (on bait caster) I can feel the wind resistance created by the wooliness of the braid and think I would feel it if some guides cause a resistance to the line flow?

Regardless, this all makes for very interesting reading and thought!

AFTERTHOUGHT
I my youth most guys used 7 guides plus tip on a rod...period!

Then some said casting is more important then pulling fish, as we make 500 casts for every 1 fish caught, so what if the line goes next to the blank when you have a strong fish on.

Then the next statement was guides obviously cause resistance to the line, so we rather reduce the number of guides to 6 or even 5 and obtain a better cast?

Did this in any way improve casting ease or distance?    Not that I'm aware of but I never participated in that.    One guy used 6 guides till the day he died where others always had 7 or 8.

Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 26, 2018, 04:30:27 PM
This is a possible clue, and improvement in spin rod design?
https://www.guidesnblanks.com/page/fuji_catalogue    Butt we only talk about the rod here.  Ive found out the reels can be quite varied asto the axis of the spool line angle in relationship to the reel foot in reel design.   More on this as I get the pictures.
   Maybe I,m over thinking the variables as I get older?   When I was a young buck I,d just grab whatever seemed to have the right line on it and just go fishing,  Knowledge can be a possible frustration , there are many (endless) variables,  butt its my life to learn and try to improve things that I can control.   I cant wait to build another rod with changes butt its goinna be taped on guides and tested in the yard first.
   This is a learning thing for me as I never got really into spin reels nor rods,  but this is a new adventure.
   
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 26, 2018, 04:48:31 PM
Another discovery is shown before, it's a very good little working rod butt notice the axis if the spool doesn't make a straight line to rhe center of the guide.   Some other rod reel combinations are worse in this starting point of the cast.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: philaroman on October 26, 2018, 06:30:54 PM
actually, that one isn't bad...  I think you're supposed to aim closer to the top from dead-center -- otherwise, there's no good place for next reduction guide
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 27, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
Thanks, this is the first time I've gotten that interested in the rods improvement in design.🎣
   This is another factory rod, and the reel that was mounted on it.  Notice the reels still pointing down it seems?🤦‍♀️
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 27, 2018, 05:14:01 PM
Below is a view of the comparable first guide.  The straight edge is 2 inches wide for a visual note. 
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 27, 2018, 05:18:47 PM
Seems like a very tall guide would be needed?  It ant be placed much farther up butt if the reel was shooting line up a little bit more it seems like the angle would improve things down the line.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 27, 2018, 06:26:19 PM
 As i look at your pictures and see that you are taping the reel on the rod, you can also shim the reel for more canter .   point it down more for some testing..
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 27, 2018, 06:43:35 PM
  My straight edge won`t hit the tip top .  Center line is about 1 inch below the tip .
Test cast mono and had a little line slap , move the stripper a little closer and the slap was worse ,note that is were the extra tape band is.
 Braid line  , very little slap and 10-12 yards further casts .

Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: happyhooker on October 28, 2018, 03:04:01 AM
This is one of the more interesting series of posts I've read in awhile.

I am not an expert in rod building, nor the subtopic of guide placement in spinning rods.  Have studied quite a few of the guide placement "theories", ranging from the "old" "original" cone of flight ideas, to the New Guide Concept (NGC), Fuji's KR, Kirkman's 27X and so forth.  I do not build commercially, but like to tinker & have built/rebuilt some rods for personal use.  A few takeaways:

1) You can overthink the guide placement stuff.  If you're a big company building a ton of rods, then maybe you can justify dumping a lot of time and money into the thing, but for the average angler who just wants a good performing fishing outfit, KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

2) There are too many variables that can get worked into the mix.  Ideally, you would build one blank, using it for only one reel, using only one type/brand and size of line and building with one type of guide.  Two blanks may measure out the same and even have the same material (graphite, fiberglass, etc.) but they may not "act" the same.  Reels have different weights, spool lip diameters, spool angles. etc., and using different reels on the same rod will provide a different experience.  Line too, and it's not just braid vs. mono, but limp mono vs stiff mono, for example, and a rod will act differently with different line test weights.  Guides are more than ring diameter; frame type, guide height and so forth, all enter into the calculations.

3)  I have no experience with the so-called "Microwave" guides.  Would speculate they are just a different way to implement the "modern" theory of smaller stripper guides to get the line coils "under control" sooner, rather than like in the old days of gradually reducing the ring diameters as you went out toward the tip of the rod.

4) The higher guides probably implement the modern theory of getting the line under control sooner, but I don't like the fact that rods built with them are hard to pack.

5) I question how much spool angle really enters into things.  Some reels have angles that are such that most of your guides will end up being "ideally" placed somewhere off the tip off the rod.

6) Multi-piece blanks can tie you in knots, trying to avoid placing guides right in the middle of ferrules.

7) Most of the guide placement theories will tell you that they are only providing starting points, and that you need to experiment with each build, moving guides around to get the feel you want.

8) I tend to use 27x (spool lip diameter multiplied by 27) to find a rough starting point for the choker guide, use 3 reduction guides (the stripper and immediately following 2 guides) or maybe 2 in a shorter rod, then enough small running guides from the choker out to the tip to give you one guide every 5 inches or so.  The reduction guides can be placed (and the height of them selected) so the outer edge of the ring follows an imaginary line that would run from the center of the spool out to the outer edge of the choker guide (disregard spool angle).  Tape the guides on, test cast, and modify as necessary to avoid line slap on the blank and maximize casting distance.

9) I select the reel I'm mostly likely to use with that rod for purposes of the guide placement, but it doesn't bother me to use different reels afterwards, especially if the spool diameter is the same or slightly smaller than the first reel.

10) Someday, I may spend a week or something with a box full of guides and experiment to my heart's content to build the best performing rod I can.  For now, I'm content to get a better-than-average rod out of what I do, feeling confident that it's a good performer even if I haven't gotten that last 1% out of it.  It's not "good enough is good enough", but it is getting a really good rod that I'll enjoy fishing with without burning up a ton of time for some minuscule gains that I'm not likely to notice very often.

Frank
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 28, 2018, 03:27:35 AM
Thanks Frank,,,  you gave me ten of your thoughts.  For that I'm giving you twenty points.🚣🎣🎣.
   I'm not trying to be a finatic,  just trying to understand the basic things no body would ever tell you when you go to buy a rod or reel.   In general you're going to get a average set up.  Sometimes less. 
   I've built a few rods and used my best advice,  technology has improved,  I,m an antique.
   I would like to see other people here and any where else make educated choices,  as the cost of equipment escalation and spare time for fishing seems to diminish.   I just wanna be a kid 🧒 again.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Rivverrat on October 28, 2018, 03:35:06 AM
A lot of stuff regarding rod building I think is really made harder than it ought to be sometimes...Jeff  
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Cor on October 28, 2018, 08:35:30 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on October 28, 2018, 03:35:06 AM
A lot of stuff regarding rod building I think is really made harder than it ought to be sometimes...Jeff   
We like to over think this stuff in an attempt to get our equipment unique or better then other.   I also often think there are business interests behind a lot of this type of "innovation"    That is why I tend to be sceptical, yet I still enjoy reading all the theories and wondering about it.    I have learnt something in this thread about line slap and lining up a spinning reel to the first choke guide.

Youngsters sometimes come to me and show me a new type of (expensive) guide and ask my opinion on if it will provide the benefit they have been told it will and usually I don't see it, but now I can talk to them about it more knowledgeably. ;D ;D

I was wondering, if lining up the reel to the guides is so important, why not try to make some modification to the reel seat, we're not talking about inches here?   Using a slightly oversized reel seat it could possibly be sloped slightly to obtain a better alignment and place the guide at the correct spot to obtain good line flow?

Here is something somewhat unique in my book.   Not the reel seat that was modified but the but section to accommodate a youngsters small hands to reach to the top of a Pen 49 to be able to brake the cast with his thumb.    This belongs to an 75 years old mate of mine who is the "Youngster" for who it was made by his Dad when he was 11 years old.

Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: wfjord on October 28, 2018, 04:03:10 PM
I, too, have built and rebuilt a few rods over the past 35 years.  I utilized good blanks and want to rebuild at least some of the spinning rods I made, if not all. Like some of you, I've been studying the NG & KR concepts to try to get a better understanding of what I want to do, but I'm still in the thinking process.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Rivverrat on October 28, 2018, 06:23:33 PM
Cor,   Nice to see where some one does something very different but for a specific purpose... Jeff
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 29, 2018, 06:43:04 AM
A short story, so grab a cup of coffee or something similar.

We had a need to develop a light surf spinning rod for use with either lures or sinkers & bait, in the range of 2-3oz casting weight, and having found a very nice but powerful blank we set about sorting set of guides for the rod. First up was a set of traditional single leg guides in a very traditional Cone of Flight layout - using BYAG starting with a size 30. Built tested, and found that the rod cast reasonably well, but occasional wind knots and only about 80-90 metres with a 3oz sinker. Next up was the more recent K series guides used in a Cone of Flight style - casting 'feel' improved, distance slightly improved and we could feel the guides correcting the wind knots - so losses in performance as the corrections were taking place. We next stayed with the K series guides, but applied the NGC principles, and seriously got bogged down with the straight edge or x27 ideas, and then tested - slight improvement in distance, still the guides were doing the correction operation, but distances were going up, so we felt we were on the right path.

Bearing in mind that this was a 12' surf blank, we next used part of our standard 14'-15' surf rod design with a couple of Low Riders, starting with a size 16, then a 12 and 10, followed by a series of single leg fly rod guides, LAG 10 and LAG 8. With this rod we also pushed the position of the first low rider well up the rod, based on our experiences with longer surf rods and these guides. Testing was a dream, the distance suddenly jumped right up to 120 metres with a  3oz sinker, and the line flow through the cast was nearly silent - no noise from the braid as it passed over/through the guides. The 'feel' of the rod had also been transformed to a much more responsive action, and very smooth. Absolutely no wind knots, and a feeling that the guides were making the blank come alive. We felt we had finally found a scheme of guides that worked exceptionally well, and with a little minor fine tuning, we then went on to build and sell these very popular rods through our custom rods shop.


Having found a successful formula, for a long time we just left it alone, but there was beginning to be a lot of information about the new KR Concept, so we took the same blank and did some experimenting. Again by pushing the first guide, and the subsequent 2 reduction guides well up the blank, then running a full set of BKAT 6 guides to the tip, at a slightly more open spacing than Fuji recommended, we had used the Fuji recommended set of 20H, 10H & 6M for the line weight/strength that we were using. We then tested the rod, and suddenly found a huge increase in the distance the rod was casting, possibly 10% further than our earlier design guide sets, which were pretty awesome - we were now dropping a 3oz sinker at about 140 metres with just a simple 4000 reel and 25lb braid, with a 50lb braid casting leader - certainly not bad performance.

Subsequent to this final revelation about guide sets and design styles, we had an inquiry from a guy living in the north of Namibia, spinning from the shores of the Zambezi and Okavango (both wide rivers), spinning for Tigerfish, but he was struggling to find a rod to give him distance for his lures. We took the 12' surf spinning blank, cut 3' off the bottom, and used a slightly modified set of out KR guides and then invited him to test cast - even in 9' format with either 2oz or 3oz lures, he was casting just over 100 metres, certainly more than the Okavango is wide - huge success and smiling faces.

The point here, is that the more advanced design systems that Fuji have developed are a huge benefit to rod design, they offer a very large move away from all the traditional thinking with amazing result for getting super effective fishing tools. A lot of how we developed our guide spacing designs has been done with just taping guides on a blank, and then testing and re-testing. The original Fuji suggestions have been noted, but in most cases we still end up finding more performance by pushing up the distance between the reel and the first guide, to the point on some of our long 15' surf rods for spinning reel and braid, we are now positioning the first guide at over 6' away, and still getting increases in performance, as we slowly test further.


Hope this adds some direction to some folks thoughts on the KR Concept, as it truly is an amazing concept - to use small ring guides on tall frames to very quickly compress the coils coming off the spinning reel, and then quickly transition those now much smaller coils into direct straight running line over the upper third of a spinning rod.

Cheers from sunny Africa.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 29, 2018, 02:03:07 PM
  :)  You have me thinking ,  6 foot to the first guide .     Is that from the reel face or the butt ? 
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:36:25 PM
Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts and information.  I think we are all here to help,  and or learn.
   I too am ( is, was) skeptical about a lot of claims in manufacturing and retailers pushing their products.
(Blowing their horns) butt regardless of this fact the best products usually come from experimental ideas and testing.  This is why this forum is so great 😀.....
   I,m not trying to wring two more feet out of a setup,  just wanna try to improve some of the stuff if already got and be knowledgeable about the next purchase.   
  I see a lot of work on spin rod guides has already been done.  Generally I would have shied away for a program or table telling you what to do as far as guide placement and sizes.   I prefer to see the theory and application and diy,  but sometimes there is a short cut to success.
   I know now that wind knots and line slap is to be avoided, proper size and types of choking guides can quickly tame the line, and the transition to the small running guides keep the strength in the blank and reduce overall weight.   When I started this post I felt like the reel spool angle was/is somewhat important but may not compare it to the other things going on?
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:39:22 PM
Some spin reels I could easily get my hands on for measuring spool angle fixed to the reelseat.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:45:47 PM
Notice the difference in a few reels,  this is not a guide position thing here as the rod is a two piece and it doesn't seem like some reels are ideal for some rods?  Just wondering.
   All measurements were taken at 36 inches from the center of the reel stand post.
What is it I've discovered?   It seems like the reels are a good start point.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:55:07 PM
Next the line has to change direction and immediately lose the coils,  the 2-3 first set of choke guides are the next hurdle for the line taming guides.   It seems like the best way to get this done is like what Jeri and Fuji have worked on ?💡   I,m glad you all are helping us help our self's.🤦‍♀️
   Thanks to all equally for sharing your thoughts.   
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 29, 2018, 10:22:57 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on October 29, 2018, 02:03:07 PM
  :)  You have me thinking ,  6 foot to the first guide .     Is that from the reel face or the butt ? 

On a 14' long surf rod, with the reel just 8" up from the butt, and controlled by the left hand - the first guide is 72" from the reel stem.


Radical, but it works a dream. On a couple of specific rods for deliberate competition anglers looking for absolute maximum distance, we pushed it up to 6'-4", and still we didn't get any choking or line slap.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 29, 2018, 10:31:47 PM
Quote from: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:45:47 PM
Notice the difference in a few reels,  this is not a guide position thing here as the rod is a two piece and it doesn't seem like some reels are ideal for some rods?  Just wondering.
   All measurements were taken at 36 inches from the center of the reel stand post.
What is it I've discovered?   It seems like the reels are a good start point.


You have perhaps gone down a 'pseudo science rabbit hole'??

We build our standard range of long surf rods with just about every reel in mind - totally ignoring the 'reel spine angle'. In our style, the rod works for any, absolutely any reel, from standard to big spool Euro casting reels, to under size reels and even all the new designs of Shimanos, with zero offset (spool shafts parallel to the blank). We have been  using this style of design for over 5 years now, pretty much without change, and never had a client come in with a wind knot or line slap problem.


Personally, I don't think it makes a huge difference to overall performance, and certainly not dictatorial to where the first guide should be placed.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 29, 2018, 10:40:33 PM
Quote from: gstours on October 29, 2018, 09:55:07 PM
Next the line has to change direction and immediately lose the coils,  the 2-3 first set of choke guides are the next hurdle for the line taming guides.   It seems like the best way to get this done is like what Jeri and Fuji have worked on ?💡   I,m glad you all are helping us help our self's.🤦‍♀️
   Thanks to all equally for sharing your thoughts.   

This whole concept of thinking goes way back to 1966, when the then president of Fuji, presented the Omura Theory, which still today challenges traditional thinking and wisdom. More recently, in the 1990's when braid on surf rods was first rearing its ugly head, and the problems associated with casting it - Fuji developed the ultimate solution - Low Riders. However, because conceptually they challenged people's thinking too far, and 'could not possibly be right', it was largely ignored by the English speaking world - you cannot possibly get a size 20 guide to work as the first guide, when people were busy looking for guides bigger than 70mm diameter for the same situation.

Believe me, it works exceptionally well, and is an excellent engineering solution to a problem, rather than K series guides, which are just ignoring the initial problem and introducing a 'correction mechanism'. Rather fix the core problem and stop it happening, than fix the problem as it occurs.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: happyhooker on October 30, 2018, 01:33:59 AM
Quote from: gstours on October 28, 2018, 03:27:35 AM

   I'm not trying to be a finatic,  just trying to understand the basic things no body would ever tell you when you go to buy a rod or reel.   In general you're going to get a average set up.  Sometimes less. 
   I've built a few rods and used my best advice,  technology has improved,  I,m an antique.
   I would like to see other people here and any where else make educated choices,  as the cost of equipment escalation and spare time for fishing seems to diminish.   I just wanna be a kid 🧒 again.

I'm with you just about all the way--maybe we're long lost twins.  Not an antique; maybe "classic" or "old school".  Wanting to be a kid again ain't all bad.  When I was younger, I had no fishing mentors, and in my working years, the time & money for fishing just never seemed to be there.  Now, I at least have the time & I'm trying to make the most of it.  I enjoying using the gear I would have bought 30-40 years ago if I'd had the $$ and knew what I was doing.  All the stuff I only thought about wanting to do years ago, well, now I'm doing it & making up for lost time.

Frank
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: happyhooker on October 30, 2018, 01:41:26 AM
Jeri, really appreciate your stories/knowledge.  I don't do any surf fishing, but have preliminarily set up some shorter rods with the stripper guide pretty far out from the reel.  It just looks goofy and I've chickened out before actually going ahead with the build.  Old habits die hard--a bit of a sin, I guess--but your professional comments and advice are certainly prodding me into expanding my horizons.

Frank
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 30, 2018, 02:00:56 AM
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.   I can say that I've never heard of anything mentioned about the reels spool axis ever before.  Not in any literature or product promoting or any where.  It seemed to me it would be ideal to start the line coils aim for the center of the first guide.    And it does seem like you will lose considerable rod action and sensitivity if there are no guides in the first half of a 8+ foot rod.
   I tried loading the rods as I removed the first two guides and the action was terrible.  It never casted any better.   Whf I thought.   I'm still learning.  And trying stuff.   But this is good.
   By the way I'm using 20 spider wire.   Mono would be worse.   
       Are the low rider guides used only in the choking from the spool,  or and small 6 mm guides to the tip.
Just wondering? 
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 30, 2018, 02:13:09 AM
Jeri I remember seeing some of your earlier posts and remembered that you mentioned the low rider series of guides and never thought it would work for other than long surf rods.
   I'm using 8 and 9 foot rods mostly.  I like the work you have done and sharing it is very nice of you.
As a possible solution to my rod guide testing I was thinking of trying the k series Fuji set of guides as shown below.  What is your opinion.  It would be a set.  Seems easy enough but is this better than what I've been doing?  Yes,  from what I've heard from all of you so far.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 30, 2018, 06:06:50 AM
Quote from: gstours on October 30, 2018, 02:00:56 AM
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.   I can say that I've never heard of anything mentioned about the reels spool axis ever before.  Not in any literature or product promoting or any where.  It seemed to me it would be ideal to start the line coils aim for the center of the first guide.    And it does seem like you will lose considerable rod action and sensitivity if there are no guides in the first half of a 8+ foot rod.
   I tried loading the rods as I removed the first two guides and the action was terrible.  It never casted any better.   Whf I thought.   I'm still learning.  And trying stuff.   But this is good.
   By the way I'm using 20 spider wire.   Mono would be worse.   
       Are the low rider guides used only in the choking from the spool,  or and small 6 mm guides to the tip.
Just wondering? 


Your first sentances are following the line of 'pseudo science BS' that the folks wish to promote. A simple challenge to their concept of angled 'flow of the cone of line', is trashed by the fact that Shimano make a lot of high end and distance casting reels with 'zero offset', so using the angled cone idea, it would never be possible to build a good rod for a Shimano reel, because it would be impossible to put guides at the 'choke point' - because the spool shaft is parallel to the rod............... hope that makes sense.

Just taking a few guides off, is never going to be the solution. For testing new ideas, we just tape the guides on the clean blank in the prescribed places, then do a few test casts; if it works out fine, then we step up and whip the guides on permanently.


Low Riders would be infinitely too heavy for your application, except to be used as the choke guides, say the first couple, but better still would be the newer deliberately designed KL-H guides. These are single foot, so seriously lighter, and then when you get down to the running guide elements, single foot kt guides in very small sizes will lighten the whole 'ring load/weight' at the upper end of the rod, and this is where I believe the gains in power and action come from. By placing lower weight guides, with less footprint on the blank, than traditional idea, the blank is less restricted. People talk about 'finding power', rather than the power was always there in the design of the blank, but subdued because of all the two leg guides folks built on the tops of the rods.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 30, 2018, 06:16:08 AM
Quote from: gstours on October 30, 2018, 02:13:09 AM
Jeri I remember seeing some of your earlier posts and remembered that you mentioned the low rider series of guides and never thought it would work for other than long surf rods.
   I'm using 8 and 9 foot rods mostly.  I like the work you have done and sharing it is very nice of you.
As a possible solution to my rod guide testing I was thinking of trying the k series Fuji set of guides as shown below.  What is your opinion.  It would be a set.  Seems easy enough but is this better than what I've been doing?  Yes,  from what I've heard from all of you so far.


For you application, with 20lb braid, I would suggest that a starting point might be one of the kits from Mudhole, that Fuji have put together.

www.mudhole.com/Fuji-KL-H-Spinning-Rod-Guide-Kits?quantity=1&custcol_guide_frame=298&custcol21=120

Try that link, either a set that starts with a size 20 or 25 to suit the weight of line and length of rod that you are using. It will give you a good starting point to see the effect, and get a handle on exactly what is happening. Then you can adjust accordingly. I would not suggest that you go down the route of heavier Low Riders, or even a combination of Low Riders and KT guides - too heavy for your relatively light and short application.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: Jeri on October 30, 2018, 06:27:36 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on October 30, 2018, 01:41:26 AM
Jeri, really appreciate your stories/knowledge.  I don't do any surf fishing, but have preliminarily set up some shorter rods with the stripper guide pretty far out from the reel.  It just looks goofy and I've chickened out before actually going ahead with the build.  Old habits die hard--a bit of a sin, I guess--but your professional comments and advice are certainly prodding me into expanding my horizons.

Frank

Don't be concerned that the concept only works in surf fishing rod design - it was initially deliberately designed for short spinning rods, we had to 'stretch' the concept to see if it would work with our very long rods, and it does.

The ''goofy look', is just because it challenges the 'conventions' that you have been lead to believe are right.  Look how 'goofy' Acid Wrapped rods look, but they work, even in a surf fishing design - but still none of the mainstream manufacturers are producing rods that follow that concept.


I would rather work with 'good science' and see the performance benefits, than listen to 'conventional marketed rubbish' and suffer lower performance.

We had a client come to us on the beach after a competition, he knew exactly what he wanted, and just to help, I suggested that he try one of my personal comparable prototypes. He categorically told me those very small guides on the end would not work - I said OK, by just try it............. he did, he really laid into the cast, hoping to prove me wrong, and away went the sinker........... he had to look down at the reel to make sure that the line was still connected to the sinker. He came back, and said - 'That's what I want on my new rod!!!' We built the rod, and recently at the prize giving after an International, which he won, he came and thanked me personally, because with 'my rod' he had consistently out cast all the fellow anglers, and won in his section.

Ignore what other people think, if it works they will come round to your way of thinking, by gravity!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: oc1 on October 30, 2018, 07:12:59 AM
The Mudhole link has a table with the number of guides and the guide placement for rods of different lengths.  However, there is no mention of the handle length, the distance from the reel to the butt or the reel to the striper guide.  The ideal guide placement for a one-handed versus a two-handed rod could not possibly be the same.
-steve
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on October 30, 2018, 03:41:42 PM
  Thanks again for the advice and link.  This is a breath of fresh air as I was wondering what to order and alter.  Seriously I dont really think of what other people think of my stuff anyway and have always "messed with stuff" as my friends say.   I was here to learn more about my forgotten spinning rods and reels.  You are absolutely right about about what works for you and what you have found out by altering and experimenting and you should feel good about helping some of us helpless. :)
  I have learned a lot here on this post,  and wonder a little more.  I cant wait to get started.   Cheers from soggy rainforested SE Alaska.
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: happyhooker on October 31, 2018, 02:12:48 AM
Quote from: Jeri on October 30, 2018, 06:27:36 AM
Quote from: happyhooker on October 30, 2018, 01:41:26 AM
Jeri, really appreciate your stories/knowledge.  I don't do any surf fishing, but have preliminarily set up some shorter rods with the stripper guide pretty far out from the reel.  It just looks goofy and I've chickened out before actually going ahead with the build.  Old habits die hard--a bit of a sin, I guess--but your professional comments and advice are certainly prodding me into expanding my horizons.

Frank


The ''goofy look', is just because it challenges the 'conventions' that you have been lead to believe are right.  Look how 'goofy' Acid Wrapped rods look, but they work, even in a surf fishing design - but still none of the mainstream manufacturers are producing rods that follow that concept.





You are right, of course; sometimes, one must overcome conservative thinking and be willing to "take the plunge".

Frank
Title: Re: Spin rod Guides Question
Post by: gstours on November 01, 2018, 01:14:39 AM
  Thanks again for everybody sharing their thoughts and providing new information on this subject.   I,m sure others that have following these pages have learned somethings,  I have learned a lot.   I will show and tell more on this as soon as I can get moving on the rebuilds.