Here's my first octopus 🐙 head pattern for the mold I,m planning on making this winter. Kinda rough butt I had to start somewhere, and have learned a lot.
The eye sockets are scuff free recessed, the knob on the tail shaft is to tie to to keep the plastic skirt from sliding down, the sst hook loop will be through this tail shaft. The loop for the line will be carved into the mold wherever desired. Another view.
I'm not going to waste a lot of time shaping the first one, it's more of a learning thing.
I can't make a mold without a pattern. I didn't have anything better to copy so I'm assuming this one will be 16-20 oz. in lead. Tomorrow I'll try to show you another.🤦♀️🎣🐙
The body is made from Dunham's wood putty powder n water. It set quite quick and is hard, yet can be sanded, several layers are used, like bondo on you old truck, or drywall repair in your house.
A short ps of tube is hot glued from the inside of the tube ring and adjusted quickly.
Then the next addition of Dunham can be added to form the eyes.
One built up with the raised eyes 👀 and dry 4-6 hrs then he tubes can be easily removed.
Just heat the inside of the tube and the glue will give up, the tube is vinyl and becomes soft and a needle nose pliers will grab it and simply twist it out while pulling up.
Here it is, the body now can be shaped more, and additional putty added where desired. Sanding can now finish the shaping, painting will harden the exterior for the mold. And the eyes for the hook and line attachments can be added one the mold is built.
This one will be at least 16 oz. butt that's a start. Thanks 🙏.
Very nice work! The shape is quite similar to the ling cod killers that I purchase. Deadly effective.
I bang them on the rocks and the paint chips off. Once that happens, they really don't fish as well.
What are you going to use for paint?
John
Thanks for the paint question. I,m thinking a white base coat at first using white oil enamel added to some clear extra time clear epoxy.
Ive had good results with this method on factory lead heads. Then a top cote of glow in the dark possibly? Using a 6-9 rpm motor helps keep the head fro paint sags. Slow butt. Its worth waiting for. ???
What colors do you prefer? Is it better to simulate natural colors? Oar go for more visibility down there.
As you can see i,m about to make several molds, Butt i,m working on a couple of patterns first. ;)
seems like rock fish will go after an octopus faster than anything. cant wait to see one of them finished up.
Looking good Gary!
A couple thoughts:
1. Eye placement/ balance: Think about how you want the jig to drop and lat ride under tension. This can help in terms of how well it sinks, and how it rides under tension. Sinking fast, riding over snags , etc.
2. If you want to estimate the weight, you can immerse the master in a measuring cup and then remove. The difference in volume can be multiplied by the density of the lead you are using. Pure lead is around 11.3 gr per cc. The lightest alloy is about 7. 10 is a good number if you are remelting sinkers mixed with wheel weights and other scavenged lead.
3. Nobody likes it when I say this, but the deeper and less clear the water is, the more contrast matters, and the less color matters. Most saltwater fish that spend the bulk of their life below 30 feet in typical visibility have no ability to see colors beyond maybe blue and for a few, some green.
If you want to go contrast for the fish looking up or sideways in open water with no background, go dark. Fish looking down or level with some background ( like rocks), go white. Fluorescent colors take UV light which is not very directional but penetrates deeper in the water column and transforms it to a different frequency (color) that is more directional. Fluoro chartreuse is great for fish that are looking for green, fluoro pink is just a neutral brighter flash for most species that cannot see red (many saltwater species). I lurve fluoro pink.
Your AT.com resident contrarian,
-J
This is a nice project, to make the lure from scratch!
I find nothing more gratifying then to catch a fish on tackle I made myself.
Use teddy bear eyes like these https://www.google.co.za/search?q=toy+eyes&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLl4-Rtt3eAhUOOsAKHUrxAsMQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1264&bih=909
Good luck.
Cool. Nice Gary. Those jigs are effective & expensive, if store-bought. Wanna see more as you perfect them...
Thanks for the web-site Cor. I never knew that that kinda variety existed for what I call doll eyes. I have only bout 3 choices, if go to our local craft section of Ace Hardware.
Thanks for the input, :) I,m gointo better estimate the weights of thjese before making more. I like the doll eyes as that woild be fast and all realism, Butt if you ever look at an octi they dont hang around nor hold still!!!! :-\ The eyes will add realism for sure, Thats what I want, not just another lead head from the store....
As a color I do agree about the contrast Idea. Where we fish up north generally the deep water is 150-250 feet and the bigger leads will get down and its darker there of coarse.... I use glow paint as will as glow squids its my best offer for a bet. Them my buddy gets a good hookup and a big fish on a lead colored leadhead 2 pound jighead with a big flap of bait onit??? Thats what makes fishing fun.
I wont be able to cast any lead till the first of the year as i,m not home. Butt i,ll be ready for next year.... :-*
OK now? Julometer stated scavinged lead wood be about 10cc per gram. help me with the math? ive got access to a digital kitchen scale at best,right now..... lets estimate ounces of water displaced into eventual estimated ounces of lead the octi head wood be!!!!
Thankks for the nice day too!! :)
Gary, according to Jurolmeter you would need 453.5 grams of lead to equal 16 oz. So the water displacement would be approximately 41 cc. Just Google grams to ounces and you will get an automatic link to plug in numbers. There are about 29 grams of lead to the ounce. I think I got it right. Dominick
Keep us posted Gary. Another way to estimate the lead would be to submerge your pattern in water, measure the displacement. Remove the pattern, then add lead weights until you reach the patterns displacement. Crude, butt will get you close. Bill
👍 ok great. Today my daughter bought me/us/me a gram scale. Thanks for the advice and math tutoring. I knew I should've stayed in school!🤷♂️ I remember when fishing was uncomplicated 🐙🚣🎣
Every body has been very helpful, I,m trying to help others too. Here's some more pictures of more work in progress.
Every thing in life starts quite simple.
At almost no cost. You can be creative.
Now gotta wait for tomorrow. Turkey 🦃 day.
Thanks again for everyone sharing information in this dumb idea. Just to catch a fish 🐠
Looking at your photo with the two "prototypes" next to each other, the one with the black head and red tail already looks like an Octopus! This is an important observation as it makes it obvious what the right colour for the lure is and perhaps for the area around the eyes and tail!
I was going to comment and say yeah 30 gr = 1 oz but it is not quite that simple as we need to be accurate with such matters when making something as important a lure! Not a Dumb idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ounce ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nice work,,,,and the cat keeping a eye on you ;D
Ok, now I,m making some more progress. With your help the patterns shown should be about 19 oz.
Now,,,,,,that looks great ;D
Gary, I like the end product, the head looks a bit scary :o, 19 oz, are going to jig that? or just drop to the bottom?
How easy is to replace a skirt? just pop one back on ?
Quote from: gstours on November 29, 2018, 04:21:17 PM
These skirts will bring the thing to life I,m hoping,
I'll take 3
Great lookin lure Gary.
Steve
The bulb shape behind the head helps hold the skirts. A loop or hook can be added in the lead pour.
Another look. At patten A. The attachment eyes could be placed anywhere in the mold.
Sorry again for the duplicate pictures. I need geek lessons.? Try another.
These are patterns for jigs and I'm planning on jigging up a few halibut, butt mostly fishing rockfish out my way. We get larger tides than further south. I like lightweight too, so I'm willing to work for the prize.
Ready to pour the second half of the plaster mold. Wish me luck and advice.
Looks good Gary. Are you going to carve out a grove for the wire ? I through wire mine with a loop on the top and a long wire out the rear which can be bent to form a loop for the hooks after the jig is poured. Those will catch fish for sure.
Cheers:
Todd
Right now that looks like an Area 51 birthday cake. :D ;D Dominick
Yes i,m planning on using wires for the line eye and not yet sure where to place them in the mold. I always used to add a trailer loop in the tail when I cast regular lead head jigs in the past , i use some stranded sst wire and make a loop for the stinger in the approximate location. then usually after adding the grub whip the stinger in the loop. Its super deadly on rocks too!
I,m starting with using a plaster o paree mold, cause its a starting point.
Thanks for the help everyone too.
Thanks Dommie for cake 🍰 idea, a few years ago when we had a retirement party for a friend I made a cake out of scraps of plywood and iced it. Almost everyone laughed, 🍺good times.🙃
Below is the mold with the top half poured. Tomorrow I will try to show the mold interior.
I remember something about using some stiff wire inside the halves kind of like rebar in concrete to prevent cracking. Any thoughts on this? 🤷♂️
Here's a mock up of skirts, butt I think a big grub in the tail, with the reverse skirt will be the 💣 bomber.
As mr Hardy boy stated earlier, the articulated hooks will stay in the 🐟 better and an assist hook can be added with the attachment eye placed where desired.
Here's the first of a mold from plaster of Paris from the earlier pattern. It's easy to do and certainly doesn't look like much. The pouring funnel can be made with clay in the plaster but I wanted to keep it simple. So I can carve it anytime, and add the wire eyes. This will be about a 20 ouncer. I was pleasantly surprised by the way it was easy to separate following the plaster pour of the second half
Here's both half s.
Gary, I thought you were supposed to put the wire in the mold before you pour? Dominick
Hey Dommie, this is the pattern, and the first mold is sortof complete. :) I cant do lead pouring yet. So i,m roughing out molds from the patterns as I wait. Thanks. I will show pictures asap.
Good looking Octo designs and test molds, Gary.
Looking forward to seeing what your dredge up from your hot spots in the Icy Straits.
Thanks Steevo dude, im learning a lot about molding and of course my molding and patterns are crude butt the rocks don't care. I,m not at home right now staying with my daughter in Oregon for the holidays. I can't pour lead till the first of the year. So I,m playing with different ideas.
And here's what makes this Alan's forum so great. Mr Dave (Jurelometer) recently contacted me and offered his time and sharing of his silicone molding advice and experience. I happened to be coming down to San Jose for the tenth anniversary crab rockfish trip with a bunch of other forum buddies. So I got my friend Wayne ( el pesky Door) so we arranged a visit with Dave, and had a very good friendly tour of his recent hobby projects. Dave showed his 3 D printer and showed us some Cad stuff for operating the printer. Waay cool stuff. As well as showing some jig patterns, both knife, flutter, and octopus styles. Next he give me a pattern he made from the printer. Then he hands me a 12 oz silicone mold with the many dowel pins shown below.
Then Dave shows us a wire bending jig he makes with the 3 d printer. I,m blown away when he said he made it for me. We talk about the different silicones and each problem I might have.
Then he powder coated a octopus jig he made. Sorry about the lack of lots of pictures, But I,ll add to this soon. Wayne might be able to help us here.
The powder coating I can do eventually as it's not that hard to do. The 3D printer is way over my head for now.
Compressed air and a thransformer, and an oven at 400f.
Of course not the one in the kitchen. Powder coat transformer shown below.
Thanks Dave again for sharing your thoughts and shop tools with us, Shown here is the printer. Waay cool stuff here. I cannot wait to make molds , pour lead, and drop a jig in the saltwater. You can be sure I'll send pictures. Thanks to mr Dave.👍
Very Cool, Gary!
My neighbor just bought a 3D printer...not my cuppa joe.....but a neat "toy".
He just might get some special requests for a jig pattern from me that I can use to make a mold from.
I've had very good luck with the Durham's Rock hard putty making molds.
I also got a very good deal on a bucket of lead from a salvage yard - 143# for 2-3 cents a pound. Enough to last me the next 20 years.
This past September I used some of my jigs and Green was killer color. Every fish in the sea wanted some of it. Striped jigs worked well, too.
Mine are all the Slow Fall style and are very effective catchers.
Good karma came your way on your visits. Thanks for sharing the jig crafting with us.
Turns out that this Gary fella knows a thing or two about fishing ;D Wayne is no slouch either. And nice folks too! Had a great time boring them with tech jargon, screwball theories on fish vision, and fishing stories.
Steve: Most folks with 3D printers get the 3D object files from libraries on the web. There are a lot less folks out there that actually design what they print, and fewer still that can construct the organic shapes that we use for lures. So the printing part is not the main thing, it is the CAD skills and software that you need to find.
In order to turn out something decent, I need all the technical advantages that I can get. It takes a whole 'nother set of skills to McGiver out a nice lure or even a reel part from a bic lighter, some aluminum foil and a bit of duct tape. Don't know how you guys do it.
At some point, I can start a separate thread on using CAD/CAM/3D printing for lure making if folks are interested.
Looking forward to Gary's next installment!
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on December 11, 2018, 09:49:11 PM
At some point, I can start a separate thread on using CAD/CAM/3D printing for lure making if folks are interested.
Looking forward to Gary's next installment!
-J
Absolutely start another thread. We are all interested in fishy stuff. Technical stuff, mechanical stuff and just stuff. All your posts are fascinating to us. Dominick
Plus 1 to what Dominick said.
I would be interested in your "Fish Vision Theories" as well.
I know at 300' ...it's dark ....but I have a feeling the fish are seeing just fine.
So give us the "Area 51" good stuff on all things ocular and fishes.
My self cast Slow Fall lures I fished in Alaska last fall were very effective fish catchers....but then again so was the stainless steel table knife lure....and the matching pattern fork lure...and the Antonio Quartz Watch with an 8/0 circle hook attached to it.
Green prismatic foil under a clear coat of epoxy was the go to killer fish catching machine.....until it snagged and broke off....waahhh. Butt...I know a guy who can make more. ;D
Ok folks; First I must boor Dave again by again saying thanks again.
Like a hermit crab I,m going to stick my head out and say absolutely yes there's a place for this cad stuff to go public here in a dedicated section (maybe)?
Some folks do better working with their heads , others with our hands. It's all good.
Friendly information sharing is why most of us are here. Thanks Alan and Dave and everybody for keeping us welcome 🙏.
When you started this thread you made out like you did not know a thing about making moulds! ???
Look where this ended, wow the mould looks far more professional then any I've ever made and I've done it for a number of years now. I did read it was a bit of a team effort......
Then you talk about powder coating and 3 D printing like its the most normal thing in the world.
Congratulations on what seems like a very successful and fun project. The best bit is still to come when you catch your first fish on it. 8)
Mr. Cor sir; I am sorry if you mistook me for the ones in this post that know the more advanced techniques. I,m humbly here to learn, and lots of people are sharing what they want or can to help. I think ive learned a lot and got a lot to learn.
My thanks for all that contributed and hope this will inspire others to build something yourself. More will follow.
(http://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/f6b5780ac7b81b9e8c49bfc555a0daff--going-fishing-fishing-boats_zpslecbfnxw.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/gst6814/media/f6b5780ac7b81b9e8c49bfc555a0daff--going-fishing-fishing-boats_zpslecbfnxw.jpg.html)
More cool stuff for sharing. Here's the 3D printer wire bending jig gift from Dave. He designed it from his computer and the printer made it. Waay nice job.
The wire bends around the sst dowels and so they will fit in the silicone mold in place and not shift when the molten lead is poured. Below is the mold again and a complete wire eye ready to go.
Just he wire bent on the cad jig.
More jig piks
The back side. View.
Another of Dave's octopus jig molds maybe the pattern in the powder coating spray booth.
I want to thank Dave for his time again . He is very knowledgeable about fishing, and is always trying new techniques, an over the top nice guy......
Very cool on the making of that pattern. Hmmmm, my nephews just bought a printer.
So you can pour lead in to the silicone mold? How many copies can you make?
The halibut will not know what hit them.
Randy
Warren, OR
Quote from: Meanwhile on December 13, 2018, 09:47:09 PM
Very cool on the making of that pattern. Hmmmm, my nephews just bought a printer.
So you can pour lead in to the silicone mold? How many copies can you make?
The halibut will not know what hit them.
Randy
Warren, OR
No exact answer. The highest temp rating for RTV silicone that I have found is 560F. Pure lead is supposed to be poured around 700. On a smaller part, the lead will cool into the rated range quickly. The larger and thicker the part, the sketchier things get. There are some lead alloys that have a lower pouring temp.
Regarding 3D printers - as mentioned earlier in this thread, it is not like Star Trek ("Replicator, make me a ham sandwich"). Somebody has to define an exact 3D specification of the part, and then generate a set of instructions for to printer to follow. It is a lot more work to design a part than to print one.
But the hardest part of all is knowing what to make. A lure that purposefully designed and constructed to have specific characteristics is the key, whether 3D printed or carved by hand. I am looking forward to seeing what Gary comes up. He knows his stuff when it comes to his fishery.
-J
Quote from: Meanwhile on December 13, 2018, 09:47:09 PM
So you can pour lead in to the silicone mold? How many copies can you make?
Randy
Warren, OR
Jcool3 in the Silicone Molds thread said this about his mold:
thanks for the input, especially those with silicone mold experience. Sorry i'm not an expert.
i've poured more than 3 dozen jigs 3-6 ozs. on a single mold. don't know what other options are available for the hobbyist fisherman. Tried bondo molds and they warped badly after a dozen pours. The advantages of silicone for me outweight disadvantages. Easy enough to duplicate the mold if damaged. Just put 1/2 the mold in a lego coffin with model, and pour a new half.
As Dave and others have been down this road before, the silicone mold gives the smoothest lead surface and can show the most detail of the molds so far for lead pouring, the limits have been reached by the larger 12-16 ounce and waay heavier lead pouring as the molds hold the heat and seem to degrade the silicone mold rather quickly.
My pattern of the octopus 🐙 is rather simple lacks much detail and may work in plaster o Paris for the 20-24 oz ones planned. I'm glad to hear from all of you, keep me advised as I can take criticism.🤷♂️
Here's a good pattern for the silicone mold. Not a copy or clone.
Thanks for sharing your hint Steve-o and Dave about forgetting the clay and submerging the pattern half way in the mold, harden. Then add mold release agent, and pour second half. Thanks 🙏
I,m wondering if I would have ever figured that out.🤦♀️
Thanks for the info about forgetting the clay in my plaster mold making.
Below is the first one made pouring the first half, and placing in the master.
This is labor saving, and gives a much smoother inside surface.
Below is a 20 ounce earlier mold with the clay residue.
The eye hole area needs to be conical or shallower for easier removal it seems.
Good progress Gary!
1. Shrinkage can cause the mold to pinch the master, or the part to pinch the mol. An elastic mold (like silicone) gives you more flexibility, but a solid mold requires that the part has no undercuts, indents, or straight walls. That is why injection molded parts have tapered sides.
It is usually the walls that we forget about (eye sockets typically have walls). The taller the wall, the greater the taper, but a 5 degree taper will get you out of trouble for almost anything. Also need to have smooth surfaces. Crevices and pits create micro undercuts.
2. I couldn't tell from your photo, but we talked about placing some marbles halfway in the first half of the mold at the same time as placing the master. After the first half dries, leave the master in, but pull out the marbles. the second half will fill in the marble indents, making alignment locators. Haven't tried this myself, but it sounds like a nice trick.
3. I like to make a wire bending jig (can be a board and a couple nails) first, and bend up some wires. Once I can easily repeat my wiring, I build my master around one of the bent up wire rigs. This ensures that my bent wiring will fit cleanly in the mold, and makes the lure making process more painless.
4. You can also make the flue and any vents out of whatever is handy, and connect to the master. Better than grinding out after the cast.
5. The orientation of the part in the mold and the location and depth of the flue makes a big difference in how well the pour goes.
- thinner sections will cool faster
- the part will draw more lead from the sprue as it cools, so we can use this to help avoid dents or voids. Deeper sprues provide more force (gravity) to help fill the mold. Wider sprues provide more material, and help act as a vent
- air needs a route to get out of the mold so that the lead can move in. In some simple shapes, a big enough sprue can act as a vent while the mold is being filled, but sometimes it is necessary to add some vents for any trapped air to escape as well
- long narrow jigs fill best for me from the narrow end of the jig, with the jig oriented vertically in the mold. Octopus heads fill best as shown in the silicone mold photo earlier in this thread, including a vent for the nose
- How quickly the part cools can affect pour quality, especially voids and surface finish. There are specific temperatures where pure lead and various lead alloys flow best. Some alloys will separate if heated to high or too long. Preheating the mold if possible can help too.
-J
Thanks again for sharing your advice, and information. I,m not at my shop when these simple molds are cast. I'm thinking that the plaster can be filed with a rotary file back home for making the sprue, the vents might be just on one side of the mold. All of the lead I've ever casted had no vents. Now I,m learning. Maybe others are learning too? Thanks for sharing. Lets all have a happy holiday. More soon. ;)
Thanks to your suggestions and a new year some more practice plaster o Paris molds seem to be a bit cleaner and easier to build. These are about 20 oz. and are poured without the clay as when I started.
Removing the pattern is somewhat easier now. I,m hoping with the wire eyes and hook loop in the lead as well as the sprue to pry and lift with it will be easier for removing the jig.
I,ll pour some and take you some pictures. Thanks again for your help. ;)