Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing => Fishing Line, Knots, Splices and Rigging => Topic started by: gstours on January 20, 2019, 03:54:46 AM

Title: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 20, 2019, 03:54:46 AM
  Ive beenkinda happy :D with my spinning stuff using 15-20 lp braid main line tied to a 15-2o lp Maxima leader using the FG knot.
  The knot seems to cinch down and grab in the initial tighten process.
It seems while swithchin to a SeaGar Salmon 25# flourocarbon leader in larger dia. with the larger dia braid everything seems the same while tying the initial knot,  after the two half hitches, everything is tightenend and inspected, n snipped.
   Then with the testing using max pulling pressure thinking all is good,  the flouro mono begins to slide out and then oh s--t time.
  over and over i,ve tried different versions of this knot on this spool of flourocarbon and it always fails when the max breaker is applied.
  the flouro seems too hard for the braid to grip.  ???   ???
  Ive scraped the coating of the Tuf Line braid to soften the line and remove the waxy or whatever coating as well as moistened with saliva the wraps when tightenening.   after the knot is tied it seems tight and snuggs down initially.   Butt it will pull thru the grips before the line breaks.
   As stated before the knot works fine on my other favorite Berkely Big Game mono.   What can I do.  I used to use an Albright improved and it is easy to tie in the water ot on the bank.... 
   Of coarse i,d be ready to listen to advise,   I got time.    its winter here!!! :)

Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Dominick on January 20, 2019, 04:02:23 AM
Gotta see a video of this Gary.  Of course with the audio off if it slips again.  Dominick
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: bluefish69 on January 20, 2019, 04:37:49 AM
Gary

I use Crazy Glue or Gorilla Glue on the Knot to stop slippage. After gluing wet your fingers & roll the know between them. Your fingers will not stick if they are wet.

The knot will not slip

Mike   
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: oc1 on January 20, 2019, 06:30:32 AM
That's a bit scary Gary.  I wonder if doing more wraps would help?
-steve
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: MarkT on January 20, 2019, 06:33:39 AM
Just go with the improved Albright and call it good.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 20, 2019, 03:00:12 PM
I do not use the FG knot so this is a guess, put on more and tighter wraps and melt a small ball on the end of mono/fluro tag.  My preferred way for over 30#  is a L2L but I use Albright and Alberto knots at times.  A uni to uni also works for up to 50 or 60 pound line but it gets large with heavier line.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 21, 2019, 11:43:27 AM
I've ran into this problem on a trip before. I lost 2 fish in a row before I changed out the flouro to mono. Then it stopped. I also had different rigs with the same brand flouro, different test that did not slip.

I think it's because the knot was not cinched down tight enough so the braid did not "bite" into the flouro. Flouro is alot tougher than mono. Most people use it for the abrasion resistance. So going off of that it would make sense that the knot needs to be pulled tighter to get the braid to bite. Now when I tighten the FG/flouro, I pull as hard as I can using a tool in one hand and the flouro wrapped 3-4 times around my other hand. If you don't have a vain popping out of your head when tightening, your not pulling tight enough!  ;D

Are you using some type of tool to tighten your coils? If not, buy something or make something. I use these little brass pipes that come in single packages at Home Depot. They are like little extensions for something. They are 1/2" diameter and about 4-5" long. I wrap them with flex tape.


Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 21, 2019, 03:32:50 PM
4-6 inches of hardwood dowel works too.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Gfish on January 21, 2019, 05:16:00 PM
Pullin hard and glue sound like a plan for fluoro./braid witha fg knot. I've used super glue and soft drying stuff like plyobond. I have the best performance with the soft adhesives, as you can smooth over the rough parts a the knot. Too much can give you some weight-/bulk in a place on your rig where you may not want it(esp. in lightweight applications), but the knot area will flex better overall.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Dominick on January 21, 2019, 06:00:51 PM
Has anyone thought of heating the flouro?  It might work along with pulling hard.  Dominick
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: David Hall on January 21, 2019, 06:18:52 PM
good info! I switched to flouro last year and use the FG to Braid but I never pulled it really hard to test it like this.  I think Ill go back and take another look at those knots.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 21, 2019, 06:38:06 PM
Ok I,m back with some more information on my FG issue.   Firstly I've stayed with this spool of fluorocarbon cause I'm not backing down from my learning curve.   
   Shown below is a picture of my variation that seems to work.  It's not as smooth as before but it's gripping the hard finish of the fluorocarbon now.🕷
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 21, 2019, 06:46:36 PM
The difference in tying now is using two full wraps in the direction towards the mono tag end as usual and one opposing wrap pulling both spectra pcs as usual.   #2 shows another view after the extreme pull test.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 21, 2019, 07:09:41 PM
Now for a little variable,  the white spectra is substituted for the aged tufline and this time the knot is left with a mono tail clipped long enough to see it at all times.  The russuto 5 wrap is left with a space for inspection.   This spectra was not scraped as some times before.   Using sticks to wrap and pull after finishing the tag ends there is no more movement.   
   I wanted to show the pictures.   Usually a wrap in opposite direction is what the other posts say....
  The knot is not as smooth looking as the previous version but using a double wrap and a opposing single wrap something has changed with the grip and it looks like it will work.   
     Finishing the tag ends may depend on if you're casting,  the length of your leader and your guide sizes.
I,m now going to strain the knot more after taking a picture 🤳 and see what breaks or slips.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 21, 2019, 09:40:23 PM
Kinda funny looking FG knot? Are your wraps sliding a long long way down the fluoro when you load it or something? It looks like an FG that has fallen apart :/
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 22, 2019, 02:44:22 AM
Quote from: boon on January 21, 2019, 09:40:23 PM
Kinda funny looking FG knot? Are your wraps sliding a long long way down the fluoro when you load it or something? It looks like an FG that has fallen apart :/

Yea, it looks like your wraps are not very tight.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 22, 2019, 04:14:59 PM
Quote from: boon on January 21, 2019, 09:40:23 PM
Kinda funny looking FG knot? Are your wraps sliding a long long way down the fluoro when you load it or something? It looks like an FG that has fallen apart :/

It looks like half hitches down the spectra to "finish" the knot and act as a buffer for the tag end.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 06:31:36 PM
Ok, thanks for the ideas,  butt the method of wrapping twards the mono tag end using the main spectra of    two wraps under and over back towards you and one wrap over and back to the cross ☦️ seems to be holding good.   Here's a picture.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
The knot is unfinished here, and with the half hitches 2 redy for initial tightening. Strained twenty pounds.  Seems to hold and noticed that the flouro has changed color twords the hitches.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 06:46:14 PM
Here's another.  Tied w two wraps twordsyou and one opposing wrap away.  Same as before.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 06:50:44 PM
This method is not as smooth butt it's holding,  notice the mono gets the burden.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 06:57:39 PM
So now for the big disappointment that started this post.  Trying to keep everything the same butt using the single opposing wrap like shown in the many good videos .   Whatcha dis.
   Nice and tight of course.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 07:03:33 PM
The knot gets a double hitch and the rusutto finish.   Looks 👌.?
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 07:11:55 PM
As before I was confident that this single opposing wrap method would be holding the maximum strain,   And it would let me down again.😢.  I,m still 🌊 searching butt my alternative will get me by.
   Any more thoughts.?✍️
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 22, 2019, 07:19:04 PM
The knot was wet when final tension was added.  It looks good and the strain was slow and steady.  It hold then we wants something to give.  About when I thought the mono would break it just started slipping and it finally collapsed.   There is no fish 🐠 story 👎🤬
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: bhale1 on January 22, 2019, 07:51:28 PM
Gary,
Ive watched countless videos on the FG knot to try and tie it better myself ;D
One that I really liked was on YouTube from Tackle Advisors....I think it is actually in three parts. He gives some good tips.
I am actually confident in tying them now......at home ;D.........on the boat (for much smaller species than your big butts), I use a PR knot if I have to re-tie :o
Brett

link part1....https://youtu.be/SaERGwDOHAY

i hope i copied link correctly...computers are knot my strong point ;D.....there are two more parts
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 22, 2019, 08:43:43 PM
Ok, I seeeeeeee, you are not doing single alternating wraps, hence the funny-looking knot.

Are you tieing it with the spectra/braid under tension? Or using the method the guy on Youtube employs where he just wraps up the mono? I am not a fan of that technique, the braid needs to be under at least moderate tension during tieing or the wraps will not lay down neatly.

EDIT: If you are doing the "wrap the spectra around the mono" as per the video above I suspect you will never get good "bite". The spectra should be fixed, and the mono manipulated to cause the spectra to wrap around it.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 23, 2019, 06:25:23 PM
Thanks again for the 💡.   I,m not done, nor ready to give up.   Here's another try at the kitchen table.
   This was before I read today s post.  As before no tension just fingers to hold double towards you wraps and a single away from you wrap, using 12-15 alternate pairs and 2 half half hitches.  Shown below.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 23, 2019, 06:28:43 PM
This knot shown changing colors seems to be squeezing the mono.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 23, 2019, 06:46:11 PM
Today was agood day for the not tier.  Oar just a lucky moment?   I,m going to try again with the tension tag normal single opposing wrap method as I,m not at home where I wanna test these with a spring scale in parallel with my come along tool.   This to me gives me a linear quantitative control as pictures and or video will capture what gives.    Thanks again for everyone sharing your thoughts.
   I,m 🤔 thinking failure has some good parts deeply hidden.🎣🐠
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 23, 2019, 09:18:10 PM
How many wraps are you doing? You are ending up with a very very long knot. When I tie them in 20-30lb braid I would end up with a knot under 1/2" long, even in heavy braid (80-100lb) the knot might be 1" long plus some scraps for the finishing hitches and rizutto.

I can see the cris-cross of your wraps which makes me think they aren't sitting down nicely on top of each other. Maybe I should do a video about how I tie them...
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on January 24, 2019, 12:58:34 AM
Couple of things.  First, your knot looks WAY too long.  With is so long, the first loops cant pull tight.  I try to get nearly all of the braid to change color.  For my usual 15 lb power pro super8 to 15 or 20 lb fluoro, 18 wraps, give or take is about right.  For the 10 lb powerpro super8, I need to step it up to 20-22 to keep it from slipping.  Also, your loops look far too loose.  You really need to be able to hold the braid tight, as well as the fluoro, and then start cinching it down after just one half hitch.  I alternate between pulling tight on the braid at both the tag end and the line end, and pulling between the leader and the braid.  You really need to work these knots to get them to tighten down properly. 

It gets far harder to get right with heavier lines, it took me a few tried to get a decent one with 80 lb braid and 80 lb mono. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G0FO7Iy-60 thats the method I use, stick the rod in a rod holder, and hold the tag end tight with my teeth.  Then you just feed the leader over and under in a figure 8 to make the crossing loops. 

Here are a few of mine:  purple braid is 80 lb braid to 80 lb mono.  Green braid is 15 lb power pro super 8 to 20 lb fluoro.  Blue braid is 10 lb powerpro super 8 to a 12 lb fluoro leader. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: xaf on January 24, 2019, 01:14:27 AM
I agree with Three Se7ens that your knot is probably to long and not cinched tight enough.  I made a couple line pullers by putting shrink wrap over 1/2 inch PVC pipe.  I keep the knot as tight as I can when tying it and then cinch it down until all or nearly all the wraps change color. (It's hard to see in the picture but they have changed color) Once I started cinching them down properly I have never had one fail. I finish the knot off with a 5 turn Rizotto.  If I'm tying them at home I also put UV "Knot Sense" on the Rizotto just as a precaution.

Here's what my complete knot looks like:
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: oc1 on January 24, 2019, 07:22:44 AM
I do two wraps (one on each side) and then scruntch the braid wraps together on the floro while pulling the braid with my teeth.  Two more wraps and pull, two more wraps and pull.  22 wraps total with 20# Power Pro to 20# Seagar Red.  Tie one hitch then pull hard to tighten until it changes color all the way down.  Then tie three more hitches all going the same direction and pulling the braid back and forth after each hitch.  Clip tag end 3/16 inch.  With only the tag sticking out between thumb and index finger, melt a glob on the end.  Since my fingers do not get too hot, the knot under my fingers is not too hot.  Then tie as many hitches as possible below the glob.  Then tie a few hitches above the glob as a bumper.  I'm exhausted.
-steve
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 24, 2019, 06:10:52 PM
Thanks again for more information,  shown below is another bench test.  Staying with what worked for me in the last post.  No changes. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 24, 2019, 06:26:53 PM
I agree that the knot is long,  but I can live with this.  It's got 33% more wraps than the single turn opposing wrap method.  I can shorten it by using fewer wraps and then retest it keeping everything else the same and report back tomorrow.🤦‍♀️    Just saying.    I,m an old dog 🐕.   
   I like the tension method as it looks so simple and easy.    So far I've got no confidence as I generally blame myself .     More later.   G-
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 24, 2019, 08:36:59 PM
I mean if they are working for you then more power to you, but when I zoom the image the wraps are still looking like this XXXXXXX
They should be much closer. Either you're not stacking them up/cinching them back towards the mono when you wrap it, or your knot is slipping a mile when you load it.

EDIT: In the screenshot below, the left-most maybe half of the knot is doing nothing. It is just sitting there being decorative. All of the strain is being taken up by the end of the knot closest to the braid, and it is taking the load over maybe 6 or 7 wraps, rather than distributing it over the whole knot.

I am sorry if this sounds overly critical, I am just trying to give direct feedback on how your knot is looking.

And like I said, if it's strong it's strong, and will land fish....

Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on January 24, 2019, 10:12:16 PM
All the extra loops are adding slack to the knot. Repeated use may show the top half loosening up as it pulls the slack from the looser loops below.

So being too long actually makes the knot weaker and subject to working loose. Use few enough wraps that all or nearly all dig into the leader.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 25, 2019, 01:28:13 AM
 Ok,  thanks for the constrictive criticism, :D    It shouldn't be that hard.   Right ???    You all have been great to me..... I hope i,m taking the heet for the others out there that are frustrated or whatever with this knot.    Its the best looking knot for the connection.... It may have some limitations butt its a challenge ,   thats why i,m here.... If I can be critisised for anything its immaterial at this point....
   everyone posting ideas was welcome.   this is what makes uncle Alans site so good.... and far reaching.   Its all good.    m i bad?
      I have learned a lot.   More is posted soon.    Its easier now to understant the principles of the project knot.   Thanks very munch! ;)
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 01:13:58 AM
Ok,  it seems like the shown knots of mine the right hand side cinch down butt the left and start part never tighten because the knot is too long?...  as an old fart it seemed like more is better.   Insurance.
    I,m listen ing and ready to learn.🤔
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on January 26, 2019, 01:35:19 AM
Quote from: gstours on January 26, 2019, 01:13:58 AM
Ok,  it seems like the shown knots of mine the right hand side cinch down butt the left and start part never tighten because the knot is too long?...  as an old fart it seemed like more is better.   Insurance.
    I,m listen ing and ready to learn.🤔

This is certainly a case where more is not better.  If you have slack loops on the left side of that knot, that excess braid could work up through the knot to the currently tight part with use, loosening the entire knot. 

If part of the knot isnt actually working to make the connection stronger, it could make it weaker in the future.  Use the minimum needed to reduce potential failure points.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 04:37:11 PM
Ok I,ll buy that.   I've tied it some more.  Most of the time the knot seems as tight as you can make it.   Then it cinches down at first pulling with 2 halve hitches.  It does seem like when the knot fails the max testing there is slack in the start of the wraps.    Thanks 🙏.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 07:19:33 PM
Q?  Does it make any difference which side of the alternating wraps you 🛑 stop with before locking with?
     It seems like this is the area that moves when the lines are really strained 🤷‍♂️
I'm thinking it should not be this difficult .....  I'm trying to help others as well as people seem to be interested with the charactistcs of the knot.....
  also how many people really try to break the knot be testing ?   I suspect very few??   Just wondering.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Frank on January 26, 2019, 07:36:27 PM
Don't feel bad, Gary. I'm not finding the transition to the FG knot all that easy either. Getting ready to stick to my old standbys again.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 07:36:37 PM
Some more try s
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 07:40:50 PM
Maybe I'll get it?
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 07:45:37 PM
THe knot fails the max pull test.  Looks good at first?
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 09:32:49 PM
These are from my recent pictures files.   I am going to shorten the wrapping to see if this helps .... these are tied with tension,  larger line seems easier .   
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on January 26, 2019, 09:40:45 PM
Thanks again for everyone helping.  I'm not confident yet as I cannot pull that hard by hand 🖐.  Max pull is using both knees to help spread the knot.  With heavy gloves 🧤 on.   Later I will use a mechanical help
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 28, 2019, 01:13:25 AM
Describe to me your finishing process?

If a half hitch or two slip off the tag end, that can be survived. If any of the wraps come off the knot will pull apart. I note that your wraps are coming apart before the knot breaks - when I pop an FG out fishing, the braid breaks just above the knot.

Once I've done the wraps, I finish the knot as follows:
4 alternating half hitches around the braid and mono. The first one of these needs to be pulled down tight, towards the standing part of the mono, to compress the wraps.
Then I do 4 alternating half hitches just around the braid, followed by a 3-4 turn Rizutto. Pull all of this fairly tight.

Now, the ESSENTIAL step, is to load the knot and let it settle BEFORE CUTTING THE TAG END OF THE MONO. This takes out the stretch in the knot itself and lets the braid bite into the leader. While you're doing this the braid/mono should go kinda translucent, as you have been achieving.

Finally, clip the tag end with maybe 2-3mm of mono exposed. This should be enough to absorb any further settling of the knot. For extra extra security, but more "click" as the knot passes the guides, you can slightly mushroom the end of the mono by heating with a lighter then squashing it with a licked finger.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 28, 2019, 11:54:08 AM
Looking at your pictures, I'm not so sure your doing things in the right order.

After you finish however many wraps you are doing, are you pinching both lines so they don't move while you tie the first half hitch? This is important. The wraps must be tight against each other and when you finish the last wrap, pinch both lines so nothing moves. Then tie your first half hitch tight against the FG. At this point you can let it all go because the FG is locked in by that half hitch. Tighten that hitch, then grab your tool, glove or whatever your using and pull both lines tight. This is the pull that tightens the knot! This is the point when I see some minor stretch in the FG. After that, tie your other half hitches and rizzuto to finish.

After that first half hitch is tied and you go to pull tight on both lines, that knot should be tight and locked in! Like I said, I've seen very minor stretch of the knot after that step. When it's all done and you go to test the knot by pulling on it again, it shouldn't go anywhere or lengthen like in your pics because you have already pulled both lines tight.

If your not pulling the knot tight after that first half hitch, the FG is not locked in and that is what looks like is happening with your knots. Your pulling tight after your half hitches and rizzuto finish. There should be two pulls if your testing the knot. One after the first half hitch and one when it's all done which demonstrates a fish on.

Get yourself some type of dowel to pull the lines tight. It's a very effective tool that IMO is needed to get this knot tight.




Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 28, 2019, 01:13:31 PM
I went out in the garage and did one for you to look at. I wanted to make sure I was giving you sound advice.

This is a 20 wrap FG done with 80# Max Cuatro with 30# mono.

1st pic- 20 wraps done with one "over" half hitch holding it all together.

2nd pic- Used my dowel around the braid and a glove in the other hand with the mono wrapped around about 5 times to pull tight. I never use a glove, but I did this time so I could pull as hard as I could. Here you can see the hitch knot gets a bit stretched.

*The tape tells me that this pic is the one where I pulled tight.*



3rd pic- FG is pulled tight. I added an "under" half hitch and pulled hand tight, a "over" half hitch, but going through the loop twice and cut the mono tight to the braid. After I cut the mono, I did one more "under" half hitch going through the loop twice and pulled hand tight. The knot is completely done at this point.

*The red marker tells me that it's a done deal.*



4th pic- ***FG knot test*** I wrapped the braid around my dowel and the mono around my gloved hand to test the knot. I pulled like crazy trying to break something! You can see back towards the hitch knots it gets stretched a bit, but nothing like your getting.

*The green F tells me that this is the finished product after I pulled like hell!*



Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 28, 2019, 01:41:35 PM
Here is one more close up of the finished/pulled knot.

You can see by pulling hard on both lines (as if a fish was hooked), it gets a bit disfigured at the hitch knots. That is nothing to be concerned about because I could have just worked the knot with my finger to straighten it out, but I wanted to show you exactly how it looks right after I pulled tight.

I realize this is with mono, but flouro should be the same thing. Just pull hard on the initial tightening of the FG. Once you pull tight, the braid will bite into the flouro.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: mike1010 on January 28, 2019, 07:59:58 PM
Quote from: boon on January 28, 2019, 01:13:25 AM
...when I pop an FG out fishing, the braid breaks just above the knot...

Does anyone else wonder about abrasion from the leader tag end against the standing main line?  Probably not an issue with leaders lighter than 40 lbs., but maybe with heavier stuff, especially stiff leader material.  Buffering the tag end with half hitches around the main line is a help, but I still wonder.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 28, 2019, 08:15:31 PM
Quote from: mike1010 on January 28, 2019, 07:59:58 PM
Quote from: boon on January 28, 2019, 01:13:25 AM
...when I pop an FG out fishing, the braid breaks just above the knot...

Does anyone else wonder about abrasion from the leader tag end against the standing main line?  Probably not an issue with leaders lighter than 40 lbs., but maybe with heavier stuff, especially stiff leader material.  Buffering the tag end with half hitches around the main line is a help, but I still wonder.

Food for thought, but I suspect it's not a big issue. Maybe with extremely heavy fluoro leaders? May warrant some additional testing.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 30, 2019, 02:28:41 PM
I have never liked this knot, too hard to tie on the water.  Not counting the onshore prep time I can change out a topshot using L2L in a lot less time and usually have 6-10 each L2L topshots in various line weights in my tackle box.  It takes some tooling to build the L2L's but I have it. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Frank on January 30, 2019, 02:46:20 PM
Hi Keta. Can you tell me what L2L stands for?

Thanks,

Frank
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 30, 2019, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: Frank on January 30, 2019, 02:46:20 PM
Hi Keta. Can you tell me what L2L stands for?

Thanks,

Frank

Loop to loop?
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 30, 2019, 03:16:01 PM
Yes, loop to loop.  The tooling cost to make L2L topshots is the only bad thing, my cost for the needles is over $11.00 each now, and might be $15.00.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Frank on January 30, 2019, 04:08:03 PM
Quote from: Keta on January 30, 2019, 03:16:01 PM
Yes, loop to loop.  The tooling cost to make L2L topshots is the only bad thing, my cost for the needles is over $11.00 each now, and might be $15.00.


Thank you, Sir!
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: SoCalAngler on January 30, 2019, 09:10:15 PM
You guys sure do use big knots. L2L is the way to go in hollow braid but for solid to fluoro/mono I just tie. Been using this knot for about 3 years now and tied this one in maybe 30 seconds if not quicker. If you tie it wrong and have slippage you will know it right away then you cinch down and come tight the lines will slip apart

50 lb braid to 30 lb fluro.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on January 30, 2019, 09:33:38 PM
Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 30, 2019, 09:10:15 PM
You guys sure do use big knots. L2L is the way to go in hollow braid but for solid to fluoro/mono I just tie. Been using this knot for about 3 years now and tied this one in maybe 30 seconds if not quicker. If you tie it wrong and have slippage you will know it right away then you cinch down and come tight the lines will slip apart

50 lb braid to 30 lb fluro.

Use what works for you I guess :) The FG and PR are both proven to be considerably stronger and because the mono/fluoro doesn't double back they are slimmer and run through the guides better.

I would wager a good FG in 30lb would approach the strength of a traditional style knot in 50lb.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on January 31, 2019, 03:50:14 AM
I use the FG because of casting.  It does not catch on guides, so I can use a long leader without interfering with casting.  Also, I use it primarily on lighter stuff.  And in light lines its strong.  I have found  that with 15 lb braid main line and 20 lb fluoro leader, if I get a snag, it will break at the knot at the lure every time.  Ive straightened out a few jigs too without breaking anything. 

L2L is a fantastic option for those who run line heavy enough to use hollow core.  But not all of us fish with 60+ braid.  I have used an albright with a lot of success on heavier stuff where I dont need to cast it.  But for light line and casting, an FG passes through even the smallest guides without any resistance.  And thats a big deal when youre trying to get maximum distance out of a 1/4 oz lure.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on January 31, 2019, 04:41:57 AM
I use L2L for 20# using a loop knot in the spectra.  It is almost as smooth casting as a spliced loop.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on January 31, 2019, 07:36:20 AM
Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 30, 2019, 09:10:15 PM
You guys sure do use big knots. L2L is the way to go in hollow braid but for solid to fluoro/mono I just tie. Been using this knot for about 3 years now and tied this one in maybe 30 seconds if not quicker. If you tie it wrong and have slippage you will know it right away then you cinch down and come tight the lines will slip apart

50 lb braid to 30 lb fluro.

Not sure what you mean by big knots, but that knot you posted is way bigger as far as diameter (what matters) is concerned compared to the FG. The FG may be longer, but there is no thinner knot out there that will cast through guides like the FG. It may take longer to tie (for some), but I usually run a longer top shot so no need to keep tying a knot. If I'm running a short leader I'll just tie an albright as long as it's not being casted through the guides.

Different strokes for different folks. Use what you tie best.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: oc1 on January 31, 2019, 07:54:45 AM
Like you guys, my leader breaks at or just above the jig on a snag but the leader is often frayed as well for several inches to several feet.  The ten foot leader gets shorter and shorter every time it breaks or is frayed on a strong snag.  That's where the fish are so its just the cost of doing business.  I can't tie an FG on the canoe and wait to put on a new leader when on shore.  If it breaks off or frays really short or if the line breaks I tie on a new leader with uni to uni to get me through the day.  The tag end of the fluorocarbon uni knot clicks on every guide going in or out.  It's really annoying.
-steve
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: bhale1 on January 31, 2019, 05:53:50 PM
SoCal(Mark)....you didnt say the name of the knot you pictured next to the penny. Is that an RP?
Brett
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on January 31, 2019, 09:27:14 PM
Quote from: oc1 on January 31, 2019, 07:54:45 AM
Like you guys, my leader breaks at or just above the jig on a snag but the leader is often frayed as well for several inches to several feet.  The ten foot leader gets shorter and shorter every time it breaks or is frayed on a strong snag.  That's where the fish are so its just the cost of doing business.  I can't tie an FG on the canoe and wait to put on a new leader when on shore.  If it breaks off or frays really short or if the line breaks I tie on a new leader with uni to uni to get me through the day.  The tag end of the fluorocarbon uni knot clicks on every guide going in or out.  It's really annoying.
-steve

If you have a rod holder, its actually pretty easy to tie an FG on the water.  I can to it just as easy on my kayak as in my house.  Ive been wanting to do a video on it, maybe Ill see if I can get one tying an FG on the water this weekend.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 01, 2019, 04:22:58 PM
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and pictures on the fg.  There is a lot of good information in these pages.  I,m trying to digest it all now. 🐒 I will use this for casting lighter lines and have used the Albright before and trust it, butt I had some extra time and interest in this fg knot and am knot done yet 🐬
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: SoCalAngler on February 01, 2019, 07:33:05 PM
Quote from: bhale1 on January 31, 2019, 05:53:50 PM
SoCal(Mark)....you didnt say the name of the knot you pictured next to the penny. Is that an RP?
Brett

Yep RP, John Collins or what ever you want to call it.

As far as strength of the knot I don't have access to legit test equipment any longer so I don't know it's true breaking strength. But, I have caught YT pushing 40 lbs on 30 lb like in the pic, sailfish and striped marlin using 40 lb toppers with this knot. Like others if or when I have a break off it is never at this connection, so it seems to hold up just fine. This knot has been tested on LR boats for several years and recommended by some. People pay thousands of dollars to go on these trips in hopes of catching a fish of a life time and the last thing the capt. or crew want to see is a failure in connections especially on a one they suggested.

As far as a knot being a problem going thru the guides when casting, well that is super easy to fix. You can either use a short topshot one where the knot is outside if the guides when casting, like 5-7 feet long, or a long topshot, one longer than you can cast. Now if you rather not do either of these that's cool but that's when I would look at hollow braid and do a inline splice, L2L or Sato crimps.

For me on setups that I cast often I like long toppers. I much rather cast mono than braid but that is more of a personal preference. I have had times though where I get into a tangle, get boat rub or snagged deep in the kelp on my topshot and have to cut out a long section where it is damaged. When this has happened I have never had a problem this connection going thru the guides when casting.

Is it the best knot? Maybe not but my point was, it is a longer knot and IMO the more complicated any connection the better the chance of screwing it up somewhere and having a failure. I'm not saying the FG knot is complicated because it looks pretty easy to tie. In the heat of battle where you may only have one or two shots at catching a fish, like our So Cal BFT, I for one want something fast and easy to tie if I need to do so.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 02, 2019, 04:47:53 PM
Thanks again for everyone sharing some thoughts on this knot.  Here's another picture of the newest gs version of the knot.  I've shortened the wraps some and eliminated approximately the amount of wraps that were loose on the earlier attempts.  This may have been a culprit as well as keeping the crossing wraps tight.   Butt it's looking better.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 02, 2019, 04:56:19 PM
This version is done before the most recent idea of making the crossing wraps and using a single half hitch.  I may have locked the knot so it could not grip the mono?  Adding the finishing hitches did not ever help.
    When testing not all of the knots wraps were working.   I,m staying on this one ☝️ as a challenge!
          Thanks again and more later.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Keta on February 02, 2019, 05:01:11 PM
Does where you cut the tag off of the mono bump up on guides when line is going out?


Mark, the only time I use longer topshots is on trolling reels to keep wind loops with braid from causing me problems but I can see it being a problem when casting into the wind.  I prefer casting Spectra but understand your thinking.

Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: SoCalAngler on February 02, 2019, 07:58:05 PM
I have not had a issue with this knot getting hung up when going thru the guides either going out on a cast or when reeling in even with a fish on. But like I said on setups I cast often I do run long topshots and the only time this knot is going thru the guides on a cast is when I have to cut out a long section of the topper on a trip. When this happens I will change out the topshot when I get home or before my next trip, so not ton of casts this way but over the years I'd say maybe 100 or more have had the knot going thru the guides., which is a good enough sample size for me.

When private boat fishing I do fish a lot of boiler rocks or deep into kelp, sometimes casting 30-40 yards deep into it, so having to cut out a good chunk of my topshot is nothing new. Sometimes on back to back casts I may have to do this >:( so I don't want to cut chunks of braid out because snags or or it getting damaged in the structure.

I could when finishing this knot use the tag end of the spectra and make a couple of half hitches on the mono tag end side of the knot to smooth things out some but at this point I have not seen a need for that.

My main casting setups range from 15-40 lb test I really can't speak to heavier topshots getting hung up or not. Also I trim the mono tag as close to the knot as possible because if you do leave it longer it will hang up.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on February 03, 2019, 02:13:25 AM
Quote from: gstours on February 02, 2019, 04:56:19 PM
This version is done before the most recent idea of making the crossing wraps and using a single half hitch.  I may have locked the knot so it could not grip the mono?  Adding the finishing hitches did not ever help.
    When testing not all of the knots wraps were working.   I,m staying on this one ☝️ as a challenge!
          Thanks again and more later.


Now that looks pretty good to me for a light line FG.  Some pressure on the leader will straighten out the bit on the right side. 

I have noticed they occasionally end up sideways at the tip guide when winding back in.  Flip the bail, drop a little line and try again usually works reo remedy that.  But I figure thats a small price to pay for the casting performance of a good FG.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 03, 2019, 05:40:13 PM
Another try at the knot,  using 12 cross pairs and one half hitch.  Before first strain.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 03, 2019, 05:48:42 PM
The mono seemed to immediately grip and tighten the wrap over it,  after the first tightening strain the mono tag was trimmed to about an eighth inch and alternating Hal hitches pulling it down.   It was retested and seemed to hold as I could not break it by 🖐 wraps on each end using these rodbutt line wrap helpers.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 03, 2019, 06:01:07 PM
I feel like I can use the knot now and kinda like it and plan on using it for spin reels w braid.   Now more practice on the lighter lines. Thanks for everyone helping me.
    I,m sure there's others that are learning from this topic as well.   It's all here for the world 🌎 to see.
The last picture is of a handy device that I came up with to hold the tag end of the braid.  Clip it to the braid and your collar or shirt 👔.  Or what ever.   Just saying.    Because my teeth did not do it well.🙊
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on February 03, 2019, 07:08:32 PM
Looks good now!

Did you ever figure out what the problem was before?
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on February 03, 2019, 10:48:55 PM
Much better looking knots (with the associated better results)!

Glad you got to a knot you were happy with.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on February 03, 2019, 11:33:47 PM
Much better looking, Gary.  You could probably drop a few more cross pairs without weakening the knot still, I typically do 8-10 cross pairs, which is a little easier to pull up tight.

Thats a tricky knot because the simplicity of it is misleading.  It requires more attention to the fine details, but once you get used to it, its pretty easy to tie. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 11, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
Thanks to you folks the fg knot is seeming to work for me.  It has its virtues and having good eyesight and finger dexterity sure helps.   I'm showing below a 10# mono leader and 20# braid from this morning.
    Another tip that works for me is wrapping cloth friction tape over the dowel or cutt of rod butt really grips the lines well for tightening the knot.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on February 13, 2019, 05:33:40 AM
I use a pair of 3/8" stainless rods covered in heat shrink tubing.  Not because its perfect, but its what I had.  And it works quite well...

This brings up an important point.  Dont even try to tie an FG knot without something to hold the line tight without cutting yourself.  This is a knot that needs a fair amount of pressure to lock down correctly, and its hard to get enough pressure with thin lines without cutting your fingers. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: r8rs4lf on February 14, 2019, 06:45:11 AM
Quote from: gstours on February 11, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
Thanks to you folks the fg knot is seeming to work for me.  It has its virtues and having good eyesight and finger dexterity sure helps.   I'm showing below a 10# mono leader and 20# braid from this morning.
    Another tip that works for me is wrapping cloth friction tape over the dowel or cutt of rod butt really grips the lines well for tightening the knot.

It sure looks very improved from previous attempts.

Did you ever figure out what the problem was? Would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: gstours on February 20, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
Thanks first lay for everyone chiming in to the knot issue.   As people have said it's a very simple knot,  butt the steps are very important.  I was not keeping enough tension on the wraps secondly, and after watching many videos on the tube channel, got some mixed messages.   Now I know more,  I probably practiced with 20-30 attempts and posted some with numbers on the photos.
   I liked to think that I was also possibly helping others as well.   For that reason I exposed more of my problems than necessary butt I,m ok with that.   That's why we are a big family. ;)
   Thirdly this knot is a very good one butt seems to be more difficult if you're fingers work well, the weather is warm, you're eyesight is pretty good, and you're not rushed for time,  like at home 🏡 is best.
   Thanks again for your your replies and interest.    It sure runs through the guides nice 👍
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Rivverrat on February 21, 2019, 02:48:34 AM
After using many different knots for joining braid to mono I have found the FG to be the very best taking second place to no other knot I've used.

Some are quicker, easier to tie but none that I have used possess the ultimate strength with  ability to to be "repeatedly" cast through the guides.

I really like casting braid.
But a lot of places I fish are full of snags. With the cost of braid & no longer having a desire to hear the hiss in the air that comes from a 6 oz. sinker as it goes past my head, after being let lose from a snag.... I in a lot of instances use a mono top shot that is as long as my farthest cast.

Much cheaper to cut mono than braid & cutting mono keeps reports in the news of... " Man found dead in boat with 6 oz  sinker in his fore head " from happening.

I still use the FG when using longer  top shots of 30 to 50 yards. As my top shot gets shorter the FG  lays flat on the spool which I like for many reasons. But in the end I use it because of its ability to approach the line I'm usings break strength while pushing my drag level a bit at times... Jeff
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: mike1010 on September 07, 2019, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: mrbrklyn on September 07, 2019, 04:07:30 PM
Quote from: bluefish69 on January 20, 2019, 04:37:49 AM
Gary

I use Crazy Glue or Gorilla Glue on the Knot to stop slippage. After gluing wet your fingers & roll the know between them. Your fingers will not stick if they are wet.

The knot will not slip

Mike   

Maybe not recommended with the FG.  The FG needs for the braid to sculp into the flouro

Glue can help to keep the FG finish in place.  The finish (half hitches, uni, Rizzuto,...) is prone to loosening as it goes through the guides repeatedly.  If that happens, the structural part of the knot will follow.  If tying at home, I will apply a little glue.  In the field, I tie and pray.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on September 08, 2019, 07:48:42 PM
I dont think use causes the finish to loosen if done right.  I leave about a 3/16" of braid for the tag, and it turns to fluff, but I have never seen any loosening of the finish, nor had one slip.  And no superglue.   

Also note, than I use the FG for leaders  Its rare that leader is rigged for more than a couple of months before I replace the fluoro, but it could very well see 20 trips in that time.  And I fish with artificials almost exclusively, so its all cast/retrieve.  No soaking bait here. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: jurelometer on September 08, 2019, 10:45:16 PM
I don't have much of a problem tying an FG that holds under load.   But I have not yet been able to tie one where I cannot work the braid over the mono tag, unless I leave a longer tag.  It won't come loose right away, but if I scrape around with my fingernail, shake the knot around, etc., I can pull the braid over the tag after a few minutes.

I see that some FG tyers melt a knob on the end of the mono for just this reason.

Also,  I personally will not rely on glue to make a knot work.  Hard glues create a hinge point, and CA glue does not bond well to polyethyline (spectra) in addition to losing strength when exposed to water.  Not arguing with other folks that find success with glue on knots, but it is not something that I can trust.

I will keep trying, but for now it is the Pena knot.  Not as strong as the FG, but I trust it.  The Pena casts through the guides just fine for me.  It  is sometimes a bit bumpy winding in, but not much worse than an FG with a long tag.

-J
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on September 08, 2019, 11:05:35 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on September 08, 2019, 10:45:16 PM
I don't have much of a problem tying an FG that holds under load.   But I have not yet been able to tie one where I cannot work the braid over the mono tag, unless I leave a longer tag.  It won't come loose right away, but if I scrape around with my fingernail, shake the knot around, etc., I can pull the braid over the tag after a few minutes.

I see that some FG tyers melt a knob on the end of the mono for just this reason.

Also,  I personally will not rely on glue to make a knot work.  Hard glues create a hinge point, and CA glue does not bond well to polyethyline (spectra) in addition to losing strength when exposed to water.  Not arguing with other folks that find success with glue on knots, but it is not something that I can trust.

I will keep trying, but for now it is the Pena knot.  Not as strong as the FG, but I trust it.  The Pena casts through the guides just fine for me.  It  is sometimes a bit bumpy winding in, but not much worse than an FG with a long tag.

-J

Just dont cut your tag end so short on the leader.  Ill leave 1/8" on the leader past the FG. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: oc1 on September 09, 2019, 06:21:27 AM
When you scratch at it with your finger nail you are peeling the half hitches off one at a time.  When all the half hitches have been slipped off or loosened then the wraps will start to unravel.

You guys can say what you want about the melted glob on the tip of the floro tag, but it is foolproof and gives you a definitive stop for the half hitches.  You will not be able to scratch them off.  The glob does not have to be a larger diameter than the outside of a half hitch so it need not stick out at all. 

After tying the half hitches right up to the shoulder of the glob, then drop down and tie a few more half hitches or a risotto around the main line.  That will make a ramp of sorts to smooth out the transition from main line to knot.

-steve
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on September 09, 2019, 09:35:09 PM
If you pull the knot hard before clipping the mono tag end, to really bed the wraps in, then it shouldn't be an issue. Probably helps to have the first half-hitch after the wraps cinched down good and tight too, but that first half hitch should not be able to move up the tag - it is what protects the wraps, the rest of the hitches on the mono are just there to give you a little bit of "padding" in case the whole knot slips under extreme load, and the hitches/rizutto on the braid is just to create a smooth transition. My 2c anyway.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: jurelometer on September 10, 2019, 02:24:15 AM
Quote from: boon on September 09, 2019, 09:35:09 PM
If you pull the knot hard before clipping the mono tag end, to really bed the wraps in, then it shouldn't be an issue. Probably helps to have the first half-hitch after the wraps cinched down good and tight too, but that first half hitch should not be able to move up the tag - it is what protects the wraps, the rest of the hitches on the mono are just there to give you a little bit of "padding" in case the whole knot slips under extreme load, and the hitches/rizutto on the braid is just to create a smooth transition. My 2c anyway.

Hi Boon,

If all that is holding the FG knot together is that first half hitch around a hard cylinder (the mono), then we are dealing with a pretty sketchy knot.   

I think that I can undo the half hitches because I use larger diameter, hard fluoro for my leader.   If there is any room to work two wraps a tiny bit closer together, I can eventually work some slack up to the end of the knot and loosen first the half hitch.  It does not matter how tight I make the hitch or the wraps.  I would bet that with a leader that is of smaller diameter and softer, the leader is deformed enough that the wraps cannot be manipulated (but I suspect that the mono has been compromised a bit). 

The problem that I have with the FG, is that there is not much of a knot there.  It is a set of compression wraps that are locked in place by a couple of half hitches around a cylinder.  Most improperly tied knots are a bit weaker, but still functional.  At some point, my imperfect FG knot will quickly degrade from 100% strength to zero.  It will probably start unwinding on a cast.

I wonder how many FG ties in the real world are the same as mine, but folks don't notice.   Some of the how-to videos have some pretty big gaps in the wraps, and many trim the mono tag very close.  Folks using glue to reinforce the hitches is another sign.

I think the answer for me is to leave a bit longer mono tag (per Adam),  or melt a knob (per Steve).  I need the hard leader for my style of fishing.  If I find a technique that I can establish some faith in, I will report back.

-J.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Brewcrafter on September 10, 2019, 03:51:00 AM
My philosophy has always been - if I use the toggles (tensioners) and put full pressure on the completed knot, and there is no slippage or degradation, then all is well.  But I mean REALLY putting some stress on the knot.  You can't be bashful (depending on line test) I always figure if a knot is going to fail, you want it to fail now, not when there is a fish on the other end!
As far as adhesives (I use them) my approach is that they have nothing to do with the intrinsic strength of the knot - I look at like an M&M Candy - it provides that thin shell that helps to slide through the guides without beginning to fray (to preserve the knot integrity) or hangup while casting or reeling in.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: jurelometer on September 10, 2019, 04:45:34 AM
Quote from: Brewcrafter on September 10, 2019, 03:51:00 AM
My philosophy has always been - if I use the toggles (tensioners) and put full pressure on the completed knot, and there is no slippage or degradation, then all is well.  But I mean REALLY putting some stress on the knot.  You can't be bashful (depending on line test) I always figure if a knot is going to fail, you want it to fail now, not when there is a fish on the other end!
As far as adhesives (I use them) my approach is that they have nothing to do with the intrinsic strength of the knot - I look at like an M&M Candy - it provides that thin shell that helps to slide through the guides without beginning to fray (to preserve the knot integrity) or hangup while casting or reeling in.

Agree, but the problem with the FG is that an imperfect tie can be  near 100% when tied/tested, but will unravel over time from casting.   And as noted in my previous post, cranking down on the knot is not always enough.  It is an unforgiving knot IMHO.

A good thread...  I am learning some new stuff!
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: boon on September 10, 2019, 06:53:42 AM
You are correct in that it is very unforgiving of any flaw in how it is tied, and as you say there are other knots that will hold well - especially when we consider that many anglers these days, with braid, are fishing lines that are way way beyond the ability of their equipment to apply enough force to break them directly.

For clarity re. the half hitch, my personal belief is that it's important for stopping things sliding down the leader when the knot is unloaded. All of these "finger trap" style knots bite harder under load, and as long as the wraps have a little bit of room before the tag and the knot has been loaded properly before trimming the tag end then all should be fine. The half hitch/es are to stop the wraps backing off when the lines are not under load. It's just like splicing into hollowcore - the "serve" doesn't actually do anything to hold the leader when it's under load, it's there to prevent the leader sliding out of the hollow when the lines are not loaded.

I fish a couple of outfits where the reel is capable of drag output that will get close to breaking the mainline, so I like to have high-percentage knots. Practice makes perfect, etc etc.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on September 11, 2019, 01:44:05 AM
This knot is very unforgiving, it takes a bit of knowledge, skill, and practice to regularly get right.  But once you get it, nothing else compares. 

A trick I have learned is to do your crossing wraps, then a single half hitch.  They you really cinch it down, alternating between main line/main tag end, and main line and leader.  Go back and forth a few times until you get the color change in the braid for the full length of the knot.  I leave the leader tag end 4-6" long at this point, so if it slips any before locking down, I wont run the knot.  Only once the crossing wraps are fully tight should you complete the rest of the half hitches.  And I pull those tight every 2-3 half hitches as well.  This reliably gets me a tight and no-slip knot. 

You *HAVE* to use some kind of bar to pull the line tight.  Braid will cut your fingers before you get this knot properly tightened.  I use 3/8" stainless bars about 4" long, covered in heat shrink tubing. 
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: Three se7ens on September 11, 2019, 01:46:45 AM
Ive been thinking about doing a video on how I tie the FG.  Anyone interested in seeing it?  Just for fun, I may do it on the water in my kayak.
Title: Re: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Post by: jurelometer on September 11, 2019, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: Three se7ens on September 11, 2019, 01:46:45 AM
Ive been thinking about doing a video on how I tie the FG.  Anyone interested in seeing it?  Just for fun, I may do it on the water in my kayak.

I'd like to see it.   

Once on the kayak and then for the highest fun factor, you need to tie one underwater :)