Like Chief Dan George said..."They ain't fer fishin', they're fer, lookin' at". While these reels might not be anyone's first choice to get wet, they offer some great fun for much less than a Penn 716 Greenie. I picked up these three misfits for under $50...shipped!
They are pictured below, as received. A Zebco Surflite 860, a South Bend 730A, and a Daiwa 7250 HRLA.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652314791_00f3450aac_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASz1k)
These are the type of inner workings that beguile most of these reels to the junk heap. Nobody likes alloy and pot metal parts. They scare folks. Tell ya what, it only hurts for a second. Just touch the parts, you'll get used to them. :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652314701_cbdc3fc04a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyYM)
On this South Bend box they describe the gears as "precision coined metal" Doesn't coined mean stamped? Interesting...I thought they were all just cast.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652313091_2c84647f76_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyv2)
This photo of the Surflite 860's innards demonstrates how you build a strong B-grade reel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652314381_83be7484f9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyTg)
This pic of the SB 730A shows that simplicity is how you build a money making B-grade reel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32709611347_9c7877cfd9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RQriSk)
The 7250 HRLA is proof a B-grade reel can be smooth. With a ball bearing on the pinion and oilite bushings on the main shaft, it feels much like it's higher priced peers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652313711_8078bfbe27_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyFH)
They look great all cleaned up. What else does a shelf queen need to do? Feel free to share any misfits you might be proud of. 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652313591_8fcf2b947b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyDD)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652313301_dce438c5f0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyyD)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652313071_1134595c7a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASyuF)
At the end of the day, they all catch fish.
Ron Jones
Don't put down that Zebco 860, Mike —
When you take it apart — and fish it — you will find it to be an excellent quality reel from the 50's.
And that Surflite 860 may be a little rare — I am not sure...
Same as an old Langley.
Tommy knows the quality of these.
I also have a couple of those little Daiwa 7250HRLA's — and one is in my personal arsenal — and is a pleasure to fish on a 5.6' Fenwick or Eagle Claw rod. Solid quality. All metal.
Best,
Fred
Nice clean up, Mike, I have one of those south bends in a box somewhere.
Quote from: foakes on April 20, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
Don't put down that Zebco 860, Mike —
When you take it apart — and fish it — you will find it to be an excellent quality reel from the 50's.
Oh I agree Fred...that new blue grease in there is mine. The only thing that puts me off on the Zebco/Langley models is that darn AR. Only stops top dead center. That backplay drives me mad.
Quote from: foakes on April 20, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
I also have a couple of those little Daiwa 7250HRLA's — and one is in my personal arsenal — and is a pleasure to fish on a 5.6' Fenwick or Eagle Claw rod. Solid quality. All metal.
Now this one was a new one to me. I think the only other Daiwa spinner I've had was the old Jupiter J-13. I like this 7250 too Fred.
When it comes down to it, I guess ya just gotta take 'em apart and see what ya can.
I like Zebco's check points on the box. For example, what's a "Diamond hard line roller" supposed to mean? Musta measured it against very low grade diamond. Sounds pretty good when you say it, though.
As always Mo, yer giving me ideas; order a batch of old reels, have some fun with 'em and then donate or give to friends/kids, the ones you don't wanna keep.
Quote from: Gfish on April 20, 2019, 07:06:01 PM
As always Mo, yer giving me ideas; order a batch of old reels, have some fun with 'em and then donate or give to friends/kids, the ones you don't wanna keep.
Funny you should mention that G...that was my original intention! Only now...I ain't partin' ways with none of these! ;D
B-grades are fun, many can be found for 10 bucks or less plus shipping on the big auction. South Bend, Heddon, Compac, King Neptune, Fjord, Diamond, Ryobi, etc. all served a purpose. I don't like to take my lookers to some of my bank fishing spots because of rip-rap and mud. This morning I got an old thirty year old Daiwa 130X through the mail, pot metal and all. Wasn't really fond of the teflon (or maybe nylon or plastic) bushings on the main gear, but the only other plastic is the handle knob and drag nut.
Fine looking set of reels, Mo. One of these days I may break down and buy a Greenie, but I'll have to see it in the flesh and give it a good inspection before pulling the trigger. They're scarce in this part of the country.
Quote from: festus on April 20, 2019, 08:30:23 PM
This morning I got an old thirty year old Daiwa 130X through the mail, pot metal and all. Wasn't really fond of the teflon (or maybe nylon or plastic) bushings on the main gear, but the only other plastic is the handle knob and drag nut.
Are the main gear bushings really teflon? I saw a few 130 schematics and they called the bushings "bearing metal". That's not a bad looking reel Chester.
Good haul Mo! You know, those South Bend spinners are really growing on me.
Fred if you PM me your mailing address I have some goodies I want to send to you.
Keith
Quote from: mo65 on April 21, 2019, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: festus on April 20, 2019, 08:30:23 PM
This morning I got an old thirty year old Daiwa 130X through the mail, pot metal and all. Wasn't really fond of the teflon (or maybe nylon or plastic) bushings on the main gear, but the only other plastic is the handle knob and drag nut.
Are the main gear bushings really teflon? I saw a few 130 schematics and they called the bushings "bearing metal". That's not a bad looking reel Chester.
These are some type of plastic, nylon, teflon, or delrin maybe, but they could easily be replaced by metal bushings or bearings. My reel is missing part 28 or 372-8600, rotor washer, but it doesn't seem to affect its cranking. These reels are going cheap, saw one for six bucks go unsold on the auction this morning.
Quote from: foakes on April 20, 2019, 06:29:06 PM
Don't put down that Zebco 860, Mike —
When you take it apart — and fish it — you will find it to be an excellent quality reel from the 50's.
And that Surflite 860 may be a little rare — I am not sure...
Same as an old Langley.
Tommy knows the quality of these.
I also have a couple of those little Daiwa 7250HRLA's — and one is in my personal arsenal — and is a pleasure to fish on a 5.6' Fenwick or Eagle Claw rod. Solid quality. All metal.
Best,
Fred
The 860 isn't real rare. As Fred & Mike have said, they are all very purpose capable reels if they haven't been abused or have broken parts. Take good care of them and they'll catch fish for a long, long, time.
Quote from: festus on April 21, 2019, 11:00:14 PM
These reels(the Daiwa 130 X) are going cheap, saw one for six bucks go unsold on the auction this morning.
I need one like I need a hole in my head, but I snatched an A-130 RL today. How could I resist for 11 bucks? :-\
Diverting back to the original three reels I posted, I cleaned and compared the drag stacks. All three are single friction disc designs, and while the 860 and 730A are functional, the only one that really impressed me was the little 7250 HRLA. Within it's range, the pot metal spool sleeve is plenty strong. The coil spring gives a lot more range than a simple wave washer, and the little guy is smooth! 8)
the last pic looks like aint no B-grade reels in there.
great work Mo.
I must recond that I also have my set of B-grade spinning reels that I take when fishing from the shore on sand or rocky pier for small sandbass, etc. a bunch of shakespeares, old daiwas, some chinese penn reels, etc that get the work done
mostly are the reels I keep for my kids to use or as loaners for friends with no fishing gear.
Have we got a good definition for "B-grade reel"?
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on April 23, 2019, 01:51:09 AM
Have we got a good definition for "B-grade reel"?
Frank
I was getting ready to ask the same question. What is a B-grade reel? Dominick
Quote from: happyhooker on April 23, 2019, 01:51:09 AM
Have we got a good definition for "B-grade reel"?
Quote from: Dominick on April 23, 2019, 03:26:08 AM
I was getting ready to ask the same question. What is a B-grade reel?
I was wondering how long it would take for that question to pop up. Think of it like the old B-grade monster movies at the drive-in theater. While they weren't made on a large budget, and they were a bit "cheesy", they were still a blast to watch. Some of these reels I'm calling B-grade aren't really that in construction...but more so from a collector perspective. For instance, let's take a Zebco Cardinal 3 and a Shakespeare 2062. Both reels are great reels, but while the Cardinal 3 brings a premium, the 2062 can be had for pocket change.
But, for the most part, a B-grade reel is something like a South Bend 800 series. Something not prized by collectors
or fishermen. 8)
There are a few unworthy of a B-grade. I owned a couple during my teen years. I'd give my first spinning reel, the Zebco 707 a D. Plastic, no anti-reverse, but really light weight, barely good enough to learn to cast a spinner. The Daiwa 7270 would deserve a C. It was mostly metal, cost about 2 bucks. No line roller, had an anti-reverse, but it was able to handle smallmouth buffalo fish up to 10 lbs. Only reel I can recall that deserved an F was the Swift. I never owned one, but saw a few. Cost a grand total of 2 bucks including a telescoping 5' rod. Never seen one that would work, but the rod was ok for catching chubs, shiners, or sunfish. There was another brand, the Sportsman I'd give a C. I never see those on ebay or craigslist, but were common, at least in my neck of the woods during the 1960s.
I've been thinking about this one....I know a few Stella enthusiasts that would call anything else a B reel. personally for grand, i better be getting a giant BFT or marlin reel that will still have parts support in five years. I like Mike's definition. I have a few "off" reels that compare very closely with the metal Daiwa's of the 80's- Olympic, MIJ Zebco, Heddon, and a Walker given by my FIL that is a beast- knurled handle nut like a DAM, all metal, BB MIJ. If only someone made brass mains for some of these guys in bigger sizes, wow.
Most of my "favorite" reels aren't even "B" grade....more like "C" grade ! :D
Just as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, quality is in the mind of the critic. There are a few of what, in this day and age, the elites consider "A" quality reels that, if given to me for free, would be sold immediately for whatever I could get out of them to be replaced with a half dozen reels that will still be catching fish when that "A" reel is in the junk box wishing it had replacement parts. I shall refrain from naming them, though, as there are multiples in that category. ;)
Quote from: mo65 on April 23, 2019, 01:35:27 PM
I was wondering how long it would take for that question to pop up. Think of it like the old B-grade monster movies at the drive-in theater. While they weren't made on a large budget, and they were a bit "cheesy", they were still a blast to watch. Something not prized by collectors or fishermen. 8)
myself been a fan of the old monster B-movies though that Mo was applying that definition to reels and seems that I wasnt wrong.
Tommy is right tho, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and quiality in the mind of the critic, all brands has the economic line of gear, the mid section line and then high quality & flagship gear, in my mind, flag ship and mid line grade are not B-grade gear, just like you have never heard about C-grade movies (C-rated movies are a different talking)
Those of us who enjoy using and working on spinning reels — will all have our own opinions.
These are mostly, at least for me — based on known and proven durability, parts availability to me, toughness and capability to handle the occasional large unexpected fish easily, and dependability using solid materials that turns into multi-generational longevity.
These will include — DQ, ABU & Zebco Cardinals, Penns, Mitchell's, Daiwa's, and a few others like Shakes, etc.. And many of these brands have "clinkers or duds" that I stay away from.
Mostly, for me, it is based on Nostalgia and good experiences.
And, a reel that is a good value, is also important.
The $$$ we pay for a reel has little meaning to whether or not I will fish a reel. There are $300-$400 reels that I would not use or buy. Plus others as low as $15 — that do a fine job. Just got to sort them out — as to our favorites.
That is why I have a personal arsenal of around 100 spinners that I keep ready, and expect to use.
Few of the earlier reel brands are still around today. And of those few — most have been merged, outsourced to Asia, or bear little or no resemblance to the name on the side of their body.
Exception would be Penn.
A person can find one of the above mentioned reels, restore it with care and a few key parts — and have a reel that will outlast them for the rest of their lives — catch fish reliably — and not break the bank. They will have perhaps half as much invested in a 45 year old spinner — compared to a modern Tupperware marvel that will need to be tossed in a few years — since Parts will have dried up, and materials will not hold up.
So, at the end of the day — it is all personal preference about grading reels. And that is good!
Best,
Fred
I took that Daiwa A-130RL apart last night. It was for the most part typical...the materials and construction you'd expect in an early '80s Daiwa. I was glad to see the bronze bushings indicated by the yellow arrows in the first photo. Most reels from this era have no ball bearings, and few have any bushings/bearings at all. The second pic reveals an odd drag stack, a 3-stack with a leather disc in the center, flanked by two teflon discs! Hey...whatever...it works just fine. I'm beyond shock when opening drag stacks. Seems there are no rules. :D
Very nice catch!! good pic's, nice to see!
Enjoy,
Regards,
Ed
Being a new guy in this hobby, I'll throw in my two cents. Maybe it will be useful to another new guy or girl.
A grade reels (to me) are any of the super robust fishing reels that have worm drives and bronze gears. I won't name names because I've seen prices on reels jump after they were given alot of exposure.
B grade reels (to me) may have some of the desirable features of the A grade reels but will often have some, but not all, pot metal parts. They're probably decent fishing reels but have a much higher chance at failure. My list of B grades is worth mentioning, to me. Ocean City spinning reels, Ocean Star No. 36s, Compac Cadillac III reels, and Olympic No. 83 reels (I think they're the same), any pretty much any similar reel. I wouldn't pay more than $15 for any of those reels, and I won't buy any of them going forward.
C grade reels. I can't really comment on them because I don't own any. I think they'd be pretty easy to spot and would feel pretty cheap in the hand.
Quote from: thorhammer on April 23, 2019, 02:31:31 PM
I've been thinking about this one.... If only someone made brass mains for some of these guys in bigger sizes, wow.
Spot on man!!! There are worm drive Daiwas made in 70`s to 80`s that would be still going if only they had a brass or bronze main gear.
Someone is probably spewing their coffee right now, saying "What the #@%&...a Quick in the B stable??" Well boys and girls of all ages, it's true, even D-A-M Quick joined the slow boat to Asia in the late 70s/early 80s. Now even though this reel isn't as robust a build as the German Quicks, it's no piece of crap either! Below is a photo of the series this reel belongs to. The 111 has some cool design features, let's take a look at them. 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46983987004_3d8a51e60c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ezPdrs)
The AR system is great. It offers on/click, on/silent, and off. It's positioned before the gears, so undue stress on that alloy main is held off nicely.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47720798532_8f290f85d7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fGVyQu)
Then there's the adjustable spool height...no shimming around on this guy...just change slots to adjust for lighter/heavier line. Sweet!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40806938863_72777eab75_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25aYeer)
The "pettycoat" labyrinth design keeps line from entangling behind the spool.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46983988474_abfe3738df_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ezPdSN)
The main gear appears to be an aluminum alloy and rides on a pair of bronze bushings, and there's a ball bearing on the brass pinion.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40806938313_7066fbf032_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25aYe4X)
I like that bail spring release too, the little black lever allows the bail to fold back for storage. The handle folds in too. Notice the line roller is missing? Bet that is unobtanium!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47720799222_603d378199_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fGVz3o)
The owners manual describes these and other features. For a closer look at the owners manual and schematic follow this link: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=28378.0
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40806937653_601abe3870_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25aYdSz)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47720798772_f395baf7c5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fGVyUC)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46983987194_042367b549_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ezPduJ)
These are very decent reels, Mike —
Parts are the only issue.
My opinion is that the worst DAM Quick reels (and there are no bad Quicks — just that some are better than others, just like anything else) — can barely see all of the "B" grade reels in their rear view mirrors.
Nice collection!
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on May 04, 2019, 07:56:03 PM
These are very decent reels, Mike —
Parts are the only issue.
I agree...info is scarce too. Kind of like that Daiwa 7250, this one is a B+. I was hoping you had a line roller! ;)
Another good feature on the DAM 111 series is the sprung ribbed collar to fold the handle arm.
Greg
Quote from: foakes on May 04, 2019, 07:56:03 PM
My opinion is that the worst DAM Quick reels (and there are no bad Quicks — just that some are better than others, just like anything else) — can barely see all of the "B" grade reels in their rear view mirrors.
what about Quick SLS? ...seems like an older, more basic version, minus some features
if these are B+, can't imagine SLS rating above a solid B
wonder if any of the spools from Asian DAMs
(better yet, complete rotor/spool/knob assemblies)
are compatible w/ the good German 00/01/02 models?
Quote from: steelfish on April 22, 2019, 07:55:35 PM
I must recond that I also have my set of B-grade spinning reels that I take when fishing from the shore on sand or rocky pier for small sandbass, etc. a bunch of shakespeares, old daiwas, some chinese penn reels, etc that get the work done
mostly are the reels I keep for my kids to use or as loaners for friends with no fishing gear.
Exactly...this is all I'm trying to say. These aren't worthless junk reels, just not your first choice. Even though they are on second string, they still get in the game now and then! 8)
Quote from: festus on April 20, 2019, 08:30:23 PM
One of these days I may break down and buy a Greenie, but I'll have to see it in the flesh and give it a good inspection before pulling the trigger. They're scarce in this part of the country.
Those Penn reels are very nice, but pick you up a maroon Shakespeare 2062 (or one of the larger ones) maroon colored reels. They are very similar and cheap! Silky smooth reels too! Use your leftover money to buy some more old reels ;D
That surflite looks like a tank! Very interesting design too.
In keeping with a theme, here is another nice reel only relegated to second string by it's softer gearing. Average fishing would probably never hurt the alloy main, but to purists it's still a bad mark. My example of this reel is a little rough, but hey, watcha expect for 5 bucks? There is considerable paint loss, but she should clean up alright.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40882026843_9d2da26d9e_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25hB5gM)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40882026293_abf045bf5f_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25hB57i)
The first thing that I noticed was this mess on the spool. What is it? Looks like melted mono.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47796687542_7df5a9d304_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fPCvZG)
It's masking tape! Who does something like this?? Worst mess I ever had to clean from a spool...just wow...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46932599785_22a987fa3a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2evgQNV)
Inside the reel was the common collection of poor greases and bad smells. I see this one has the nylon main bushings. I'm not convinced they're a bad thing. They seem very smooth and solid feeling to me. Tommy's fine tutorial in the Zebco section will get you through this reel painlessly.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47059269654_455e67c862_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eGt4mb)
The oscillation block on this reel is held by two tiny c-clips. Of course I sent one into low earth orbit. The photo below shows a c-clip I made on the left. The tiny washer in the center is a shim that was on the front of the block.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46932599565_11cf4b09c7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2evgQK8)
The drag stack was clean but I disassembled it anyway...just for practice. ;D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47059269194_bcf87de837_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eGt4df)
Now there is some serious chrome loss. I think we can fix it though.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40882029383_5550ab9c8a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25hB62z)
Brasso and elbow grease works wonders.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47059268824_23cb3ed541_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eGt46S)
I think she cleaned up nice, but the feel is even more impressive, very solid feel. I don't care for the AR system though. It's that top dead center set up, all the backplay irritates me. All in all, it's a great reel, probably one of Zebco's finer moments.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40882029003_a8ecc5fa78_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25hB5V2)
That beer koozie came with the reel. It says "Holy Grail" on it...the price of these reels just spiked! 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47059268394_59bf106cef_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eGt3Ys)
That's not a bad looking Zebco, Mike. I have this one getting ready to tear apart, will post it in another thread.
Well done, Mike! Doesn't even look like the same reel you started with. They're actually not bad reels. A little cumbersome feeling, IMHO, but a decent attempt by Zebco to replace the Cardinal line after ABU changed directions on them. Nice to see you got a good off side handle knob, too. :)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on May 14, 2019, 05:03:03 PM
They're actually not bad reels. A little cumbersome feeling, IMHO, but a decent attempt by Zebco to replace the Cardinal line after ABU changed directions on them. Nice to see you got a good off side handle knob, too. :)
That's a good description Tommy...cumbersome. It's a heavy reel. Solid...but heavy. I wondered if you'd notice it had the off side knob! ;)
Good looking tank of a reel (other than gear material). I'm going to have to get in on this act!
Nice clean-up work. End result looks good. Looks like someone tried to build a spool arbor with that masking tape (not recommended).
Frank
I've always wondered why Heddon's lures became collectors' gold while their reels became bargain bin fare. True...most of the Heddon reels weren't as robust as Penns and Quicks from the era...but some models were very well designed and built. I've been inside enough of these reels to know they are fine second string players...a "poor man's greenie" if ever there was one!
The particular model I'll be covering, the 282, was part of the Top-Of-Line series.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994242286_32e66d8852_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g8638Y)
Looking inside, we see a few cool features right away. The red arrow points to the AR dog placed ahead of the gears. The blue arrow shows the oscillation cam is all one piece. No pin or screws to get lost, pops right out, allowing the spool shaft to be removed easily.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994101003_ed3220d045_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g85j94)
The next photo demostrates how gunked up these old spinners can get when users have over-oiled the bail for years. This one was very slow...barely moved...a quick soak in WD-40 and a thorough soap and water wash will restore function.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994017397_fd7a52c6e6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g84Thz)
This reel was one of the early models to use a ball bearing on both the pinion gear and the main gear. Inspecting these bearings doesn't reveal the tight specs of a top quality bearing. They feel very smooth after cleaning though, and when assembled into the reel the tolerances aren't even noticed. The pinion and AR ratchet are a nice quality stainless steel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994100933_dd2c5e7b64_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g85j7R)
There it is again...the deal breaker...that die cast main gear. I'll say it again, I'm not completely convinced these are the devil. Especially with the forward mounted anti-reverse and a properly set drag. Sure, it ain't idiot proof, but neither is good bourbon!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994058311_1cf79a1b41_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g856rZ)
The spool is metal and has a nice little drag stack. The cork washers were in excellent shape. I buffed the metal washers and smeared a little grease on them. The drag is smooth and strong.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994013528_e09f394533_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g84S8S)
I think this is one of the nicest looking reels of the era. Maybe they were over priced? Maybe Heddon just didn't have huge distribution like Garcia? I don't remember, I was still playing hop scotch and riding the merry-go-round when these reels were made! 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994057661_0aecfdb4f1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g856fM)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47994016697_5c645dc2af_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g84T5v)
Nice look inside, Mike. Thanks!
I think one of Heddon's reel problems might have been people's perception at the time of the Euro watchmaker turned to reelmaker quality and the fact that Heddon used their name to then over priced their reels, especially those that were made in Japan. The Japanese made market was tough price competition. Heddon up priced their Shakespeare made auto fly reels and did the same thing with their Swedish made Heritage line.
I finally am joining the B grade reel party ;D
I've owned (and still do) plenty that qualify, just late joining in but I have enjoyed this thread a lot. Reels that are in most everyone's price range that are fun to look into. I'm going to go with the recent Heddon theme and add in this little rascal. Not an A quality reel...not even sure it would qualify as a B level reel but I like the size, shape and weight of this little ultralight so much I'm keeping it anyway. I've had it for a while and just recently got around to servicing it. Anyway, here is my 1st contribution to the thread:
https://youtu.be/4aCV4OUXh4k
That little 290 is a sweet B-grade find Kevin. Like you said...even without support bearings on the main it would catch panfish forever. Thanks for posting! 8)
Yes sir, should be fine for many years of light duty fishing! The reel has a nice feel to it.
Thanks, gents, for the looks at the 282 & 290.
Frank
Here's another B grader, the Zebco XRL40. Not too bad for a no bearing reel. I'll do a thread on this reel in a day or two under the Zebco section.
If I remember correctly, on the schematic that XRL40 has bronze bushings on the pinion and main. That's a far sight better than the XRL37...it sports nothing! Funny how models from the same series can differ so much. Looking forward to your report Chester. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on June 06, 2019, 12:04:34 PM
If I remember correctly, on the schematic that XRL40 has bronze bushings on the pinion and main. That's a far sight better than the XRL37...it sports nothing! Funny how models from the same series can differ so much. Looking forward to your report Chester. 8)
If that is the case, then it should be a nice reel!
This feels like the best Heddon I've owned, the 281, and most likely it's considered a B-Grade. It has at least one ball bearing.
Quote from: festus on June 08, 2019, 06:07:04 PM
This feels like the best Heddon I've owned, the 281, and most likely it's considered a B-Grade. It has at least one ball bearing.
Whoever made those must have made the 290 I posted about. The body style looks very similar. One cupped rotor and one skirted spool but the main body looks very close to the same style.
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on June 08, 2019, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: festus on June 08, 2019, 06:07:04 PM
This feels like the best Heddon I've owned, the 281, and most likely it's considered a B-Grade. It has at least one ball bearing.
Whoever made those must have made the 290 I posted about. The body style looks very similar. One cupped rotor and one skirted spool but the main body looks very close to the same style.
I'm thinking it was Omori that made these Heddons...I don't know for sure...but they are very nice reels in my book. Like I've said before, the lack of a bronze or steel main doesn't scare me. You want to hear an honest statement? I've only had 2 reels with a busted main. They were both Penns, a 420ss and a 720z! I know my situation isn't the norm...but one to consider. :-\
P.S. Anyone who knows me knows I'm no Penn hater. I love my little 720z, it's my "go to" crappie reel. 8)
I would agree, Mo....I've fished "cheap" reels for years...in the river, mostly, for smallmouth, walleye, and cats....and, despite pot metal gears, "cheap" bushings...or maybe, NO bushings....a little oil, and grease, at the start of the season seems to 'keep them tickin'"! The "more expensive" reels do have a distinct advantage in parts availability, though. The "throw aways"can be hard to find any spares for, so, it's a matter of having a bucket of donor reels, or "making" stuff, as you need it.
Almost any modern reel has zinc alloy main gears so there is no reason the old ones should be any extra concern. There are still a lot of old metal turning lathes still running zamak gears out there. They are more likely to shear or to break down over time but still plenty around that probably are older than any of us!
Quote from: mo65 on June 08, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
I'm thinking it was Omori that made these Heddons...I don't know for sure...but they are very nice reels in my book. Like I've said before, the lack of a bronze or steel main doesn't scare me. You want to hear an honest statement? I've only had 2 reels with a busted main. They were both Penns, a 420ss and a 720z! I know my situation isn't the norm...but one to consider. :-\
P.S. Anyone who knows me knows I'm no Penn hater. I love my little 720z, it's my "go to" crappie reel. 8)
The majority of the Japanese made Heddons were made by Olympic.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on June 10, 2019, 02:05:38 AM
Quote from: mo65 on June 08, 2019, 06:27:07 PM
I'm thinking it was Omori that made these Heddons...I don't know for sure...but they are very nice reels in my book. Like I've said before, the lack of a bronze or steel main doesn't scare me. You want to hear an honest statement? I've only had 2 reels with a busted main. They were both Penns, a 420ss and a 720z! I know my situation isn't the norm...but one to consider. :-\
P.S. Anyone who knows me knows I'm no Penn hater. I love my little 720z, it's my "go to" crappie reel. 8)
The majority of the Japanese made Heddons were made by Olympic.
Tommy, so probably some of those Roddys were also made by Olympic?
QuoteTommy, so probably some of those Roddys were also made by Olympic?
Some were made by Olympic and some were made by Daiwa.
Did Ryobi actually manufacture their own reels (the older ones)? A lot of those look really similar to some of the old Daiwa reels.
Ryobi took over for Shimano, as Lew's OEM
then, went out on their own, like Shimano
Does anyone know if this Roddy 820-A is pretty much the same size reel as the Heddon 230? I've been curious about these, seen both on ebay, but not found one in my price range yet.
These are worm gear driven. It's doubtful they were built with metals the quality of the Penns, DAM Quicks, and Royal Maroons, however.
Most likely candidates for B-grade.
It sure looks like the same reel Chester. I don't recall for sure...the deeper I get into reels the harder it is to remember it all. I've been prowling for a 230 but all the listings lately have been pretty trashed.
Ok, my entry to the "B" list party. A Diawa GS3. GS= Gold Series. Birthdate 1977. There are SS-Silver Series, a slight downgrade from the GS and then ~'79 or '80 or so confusedly, the SS= Super Sport. The Super Sport's had the fancy wood handle knobs and some fancy spool engraving. Better internally-I don't know? The next versions were the very popular BG's(1980- present)
This is a B reel to me cause they are very heavy/size, probably have some kinda alloy main gear and I'm prejudiced against 1970's metal and other materials used on Japanese products. I tell you what though, the design engineering is excellent, IMO. Accorrding to a thread from Stripersonline, Diawa spinners from this era are sturdy, longlasting workhorses.
Great features: spring-button fold down handle; silent dog-ear style anti-reverse located on top of the gear box and underneath the rotor. It engages a seperate ratchet on top of the pinion gear; metal covers over both the bottoms of the bail arms; a heavy-duty click spring system oppsite the anti-reverse(engages only in anti-reverse mode); a 4.8:1 gear ratio; and besides the pinion ball bearing, only 1-b.bearing for the main gear shaft. Switching it to right side cranking will put mosta the load on a brass bushing for that side, which is fine with me---one less b.bearing to service.
"How come?" Why not engineer it with a spring loaded AR pawl to get the anti-reverse "clicking" sound? Why have a whole other system to produce the AR click? The reel's heavy enough, why add more parts($) and weight?
Quote from: festus on June 10, 2019, 02:47:56 PM
Does anyone know if this Roddy 820-A is pretty much the same size reel as the Heddon 230? I've been curious about these, seen both on ebay, but not found one in my price range yet.
These are worm gear driven. It's doubtful they were built with metals the quality of the Penns, DAM Quicks, and Royal Maroons, however.
Most likely candidates for B-grade.
I have one of the Roddy worm drives, not a big fan of it. If you get one, watch out while disassembling for the ball bearing, it is an open bearing and the balls will spill out everywhere if you aren't careful!
A few more pictures. Also note the tiny diameter of the drag system. Looks like teflon and an unknowen bottom washer for the friction discs---another B reel aspect for me. Ok, one more B reel part: a plastic drag click pawl.
Quote from: Gfish on June 11, 2019, 12:28:31 AM
Ok, my entry to the "B" list party. A Diawa GS3. GS= Gold Series. Birthdate 1977. There are SS-Silver Series, a slight downgrade from the GS and then ~'79 or '80 or so confusedly, the SS= Super Sport. The Super Sport's had the fancy wood handle knobs and some fancy spool engraving. Better internally-I don't know. The next versions were the very popular BG's(1980-?).
This is a B reel to me cause they are very heavy/size, probably have some kinda alloy main gear and I'm prejudiced against 1970's Japanese metal and other materials. Oh, but the design engineering is really excellent, IMO.
Great features: spring-button fold down handle; anti-reverse up underneath the rotor that engages a seperate ratchet on top of the pinion gear; metal covers over both the bottoms of the bail arms; a heavy-duty click spring system oppsite the anti-reverse(engages only in anti-reverse mode) and only 1-b.bearing for the main gear shaft(1 more for the pinion). Switching it to right side cranking will put mosta the load on a brass bushing for that side, which is fine with me---one less b.bearing to service.
I like a lot of those older Daiwa reels. They are all built similarly. BG, GS, SS, X, D, C and some other series of reels were all very similar and very good reels
Thanks for the look inside that Daiwa G, I've been curious about those. I see it has a bearing on the main, and a bushing on the side that sometimes gets no love. That main looks machined rather than cast...that would be a plus too. Bonus points for that AR system also. The drag system may fool you. I've learned there are no rules when it comes to drag systems. On paper, large surface area and multiple discs is the ticket, but I've sure seen real world results prove otherwise. All in all...that's a high scoring B-grade! 8)
Question would the Penn 100 series silver reels qualify as a "B" grade?
Nice breakdown on that Daiwa, gfish.
Frank
Quote from: Gfish on June 11, 2019, 12:28:31 AM
Ok, my entry to the "B" list party. A Diawa GS3. GS= Gold Series. Birthdate 1977. There are SS-Silver Series, a slight downgrade from the GS and then ~'79 or '80 or so confusedly, the SS= Super Sport. The Super Sport's had the fancy wood handle knobs and some fancy spool engraving. Better internally-I don't know. The next versions were the very popular BG's(1980-?).
This is a B reel to me cause they are very heavy/size, probably have some kinda alloy main gear and I'm prejudiced against 1970's Japanese metal and other materials. Oh, but I tell you, the design engineering is really excellent, IMO.
Those GS models are nice reels. Worth at least a B+. If it weren't for the alloy main gear, it would definitely deserve an A. I have a couple of silver series and a bronze series, imho they deserve a B or B-minus.
Quote from: George6308 on June 11, 2019, 01:11:22 AM
Question would the Penn 100 series silver reels qualify as a "B" grade?
I've never owned on of the Penn 100 series, but from talk I've heard, maybe a B-minus?
Alright, then, sorry for messing up the post sequence, but I couldn't get to the bail on the GS-3 till now.
I can see a weight issue if holding the reel/rod for several hours while standing in the surf. I'd say it's a medium-large freshwater or light saltwater reel.
The bail system is not as heavy duty as the rest of the reel. Note the rather flimsy single spring. It would be pretty easy to work on, however. There's good and bad with most things in this world. The bail arm bangs against that projection on the stem to close(bad) when cranking, but it also can be flipped back over by hand(good). The deal would be to get used to hand action, except for those rare times when you gotta stop the line quickly.
I picked up this Zebco 620 a while back, and I've been researching it, but there just ain't a lot of info out there for this reel. As can be see in the pics below, it's a dead ringer for the more common model 3020 from the late 80s 3000 series. Aside from a few cosmetic differences, the only other difference is the 620 is marked Japan, while the 3020 is marked Korea. I'm guessing Zebco made some parts before the move to Korea and just used them to make the 620.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200145637_23db520504_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grhm2K)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200099981_000a051cdf_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grh7sz)
The reel cranked pretty smooth...and after opening it I see why...it was packed with a nice soft grease. I'm not sure what kind it is, but I'm sure this will make someone grit their teeth, I scraped it off the side plate and reused it! ;D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200075207_902898be42_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgZ6r)
Although there was a complete lack of plastic parts inside the reel, there was also a complete lack of bearings. The red arrow points to what I thought was the only brass bushing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200074567_c24d4991f1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgYUp)
Dang...fooled again...it's just a thrust washer. How can a reel with no bearings or bushings feel so smooth? There is no slop in the rotor/pinion fitment either. Usually a build style like this wins a "C" grade. Nice sorcery Zebco!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200074727_44a0b28475_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgYXa)
The drag was another story. It was barely functional. I was expecting to see some cheezy set up, but it's a nice leather 3-stack. The only reason it worked so poorly was because it was rusted and crusted. I polished the metals and oiled the leathers. It's now an impressive drag.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200029251_afea513b37_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgKr6)
I ended up with a nice clean spread of nuggets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48353248661_7c64ae976d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gEP3e4)
All in all...I like this reel. Who knows, maybe after a few big fish it might not feel so smooth. I have to compliment Zebco though, for using metal oscillation blocks and drag clickers when so many more respected manufacturers opted for plastic. 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200074637_f2045a92bb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgYVB)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48200028446_675cc40da9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2grgKcd)
I suppose you'll put some line on it...for some testing ?!
I found some soft brown grease in a reel that was very old once and it seemed perfectly fine. We need to find out what that stuff is and if it is still available! It has to be pretty good stuff and it doesn't seem to solidify...I don't blame you for reusing it!
Those are some really sharp looking Zebcos, Mo.
I'm liking these B-grades. Got a deal on this Pflueger. 1 buck plus shipping. Probably from the early 1980s. It should be here this weekend.
You got the deal of the year on that one !!
Here's another B-grade spinner I'd been looking searching for months to find. Heddon 230. It's running very smoothly as it arrived, but I'll tear it apart and do a thread on it in a day or two. Also have a couple more Heddon spinners on the way.
Quote from: festus on July 05, 2019, 09:26:55 PM
Here's another B-grade spinner I'd been looking searching for months to find. Heddon 230. It's running very smoothly as it arrived, but I'll tear it apart and do a thread on it in a day or two. Also have a couple more Heddon spinners on the way.
I have the Roddy version of this reel. Be careful when disassembling the reel because the ball bearings will go everywhere! Take it apart over a plastic tub with a cloth at the bottom to keep them from bouncing all over the house ;D
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on July 05, 2019, 11:10:39 PM
Be careful when disassembling the reel because the ball bearings will go everywhere!
Yep...heard about this one! I still want one though...I'll be looking forward to seeing the inner workings of that one Chester. Great buy on the Pflueger too! 8)
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on July 05, 2019, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: festus on July 05, 2019, 09:26:55 PM
Here's another B-grade spinner I'd been looking searching for months to find. Heddon 230. It's running very smoothly as it arrived, but I'll tear it apart and do a thread on it in a day or two. Also have a couple more Heddon spinners on the way.
I have the Roddy version of this reel. Be careful when disassembling the reel because the ball bearings will go everywhere! Take it apart over a plastic tub with a cloth at the bottom to keep them from bouncing all over the house ;D
Yes Kevin, you warned us about those loose ball bearings a while back so I was prepared. Getting all those washers and bearing covers back in the correct order is my main concern. There are quite a few parts making up the two assemblies. BTW, I saw one of the Roddy versions of this reel on ebay go unsold an hour or so ago. Could have been gotten for $4.99 plus $9.95 shipping. I would probably got it had shipping been 5 bucks or so.
I'm on the fence Chester...I don't know if that reel is a second string player or not. It has a brass main, a brass worm drive pinion with ball bearings, and an aluminum spool. Mechanically, it qualifies for the first round draft! :D
The "trailers" on the Medalist & Heddon have got me waiting for more!
Frank
Both the Metalist and the Heddon 230(Roddy) look like pretty tough reels.
I just "won" a Heddon 230 on ebay....so your write ups will come in handy!
Excellent thread!...keep up the great work guys, so we could all enjoy it.
Sal
This little honey of a "B" is very similar to the 7250 HRLA I posted at the beginning of this thread. Not the type of ultralight I'd go wrestling big smallies or hybrids with, but more than capable of the light use it was designed for.
My brother picked this one up for $10 and it was stiff as a poker. The handle, the bail, and even the spool all felt like they had glue spilled on them. He thought he'd been jipped...but I assured him we had a better than average chance of making her like new...as long as no major parts were broken.
It didn't take long to find the source of the stiffness. Layers of brown, blue, and white grease had reacted to each other in a bad way leaving everything sticky as honey. A thorough servicing down to the tiniest screw was all she needed. With the bail spring clean it snapped shut like a champ. With that sticky goo off the spool shaft and spool sleeve the drag worked again. Oh yeah...the handle turns better too. 8)
That cleaned up great, Mo !!
Beautiful.
Frank
Amazing what a little TLC can accomplish, Well done, Mike!
YES MO! Beautiful!
I love mine! Made a CF drag washer for it and it's so smooooooooth ;D
(https://www.fishy-pix.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_20190816_141426015.jpg)
(https://www.fishy-pix.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_20190816_141432322.jpg)
MOmeister!!!
Did anyone else see what I saw???
Do you do see it now????
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/7588_04_09_19_7_58_36_292041173.jpeg)
Com'n MO! As a Brother of the Shutter,
you have to tell us how you made this photo from what I can figure out from 7 other photos????
Man, you got my mind all twisted up this am.
And by the way, what do you call a photo of many other photos??? A collage? Patchwork? Scramble? Hodgepodge???
Need to figure this one out!!!!
TANKS.
Wayne
Yeah, it jumped out at me. 2 of certain parts. You did this on purpose Mo?
Love those Leopard sharks, Chad! A SF Bay staple.
Wayne,
I saw that too! Cool way to post a bunch of pics all at once. You're upping your game big time Mo!
Quote from: El Pescador on September 04, 2019, 03:03:06 PM
MOmeister!!!
Did anyone else see what I saw???
Do you do see it now????
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/7588_04_09_19_7_58_36_292041173.jpeg)
Com'n MO! As a Brother of the Shutter,
you have to tell us how you made this photo from what I can figure out from 7 other photos????
Man, you got my mind all twisted up this am.
And by the way, what do you call a photo of many other photos??? A collage? Patchwork? Scramble? Hodgepodge???
Need to figure this one out!!!!
TANKS.
Wayne
HA! :D And here I thought I had a little too much hooch! ;D
HA! :D And here I thought I had a little too much hooch! ;D
[/quote]
Oh, don't worry. I'm certain that too much hooch was consumed. :)
The Man
Quote from: El Pescador on September 04, 2019, 03:03:06 PM
Com'n MO! As a Brother of the Shutter,
you have to tell us how you made this photo from what I can figure out from 7 other photos????
Man, you got my mind all twisted up this am.
And by the way, what do you call a photo of many other photos??? A collage? Patchwork? Scramble? Hodgepodge???
Need to figure this one out!!!!
TANKS.
Wayne
Thanks for the compliments fellers! Yes...the photo is a "collage" straight from windows 10 photo gallery. No great talent on my part...just a little creativity. Actually, I've never had one come out as good as the very first one I did here, right from the first post of this thread.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47652314791_00f3450aac_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fASz1k)
Also, I forgot to mention the rotor on this reel is threaded to the pinion. Chad and I both battled that gremlin for a few minutes before enlightenment...HA! Left hand threads too...double jeopardy! 8)
Quote from: basto on April 23, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
I had a couple of Banax SX reels that were cheap to buy. The earlier ones were called Bando. They were made in Korea originally, but now in China. I had a 3000, which my son has now and still have a 5000, both still going well after about 25 years. The early ones had wooden grips.
They have brass main and pinion gears, all alloy body and were very reminiscent of the early Daiwa Regal.
They have metal spools with felt drag washers.
Not a bad reel for the money.
Bando had an affiliation to Daiwa back in the day and I believe Bando produced the first Daiwa Black and Gold spinners and the early Daiwa 6hm bait caster.
Greg
Bando was new build of Daiwa-Seiko himself (before was it Tae Yang Industrial Co. Ltd. in Seoul), at a time where japanese manufaturing was to expensive and should go outside to countrys like Korea, Malaysia or Taiwan to produce cheaper.
Those company manufatured mainly the parts for the Daiwa SS-Series in the late 70s, the highend series of this time.
In the early 80s Bando became independent and their first own model was the Bando SX serie, which is an improved version of the first SS-series.
Same reel and quality, except the internal bail kick system now at the SX-series and different snapoff-handle.
The wood handle was handmade of teak, same like at original SS-series.
Few diffence at the gear, the original SS-series has holes at the drivegear, the SX doesnt.
A very nice series , with some care your great-grandsons could fish them.
In countrys like Turkey those reels are very popular und used.
One of the earlierst Bando SX and still in use. ;)
(http://eimernase.de/vintage-reels/BandoSX4000.jpg)
Ah yes...more B-Grade fun right here. This one is basically just a 308 with a graphite rotor, a brass spool shaft instead of steel, and a pot metal main instead of aluminum alloy. Even with the drive train cheapened it is still good at what it was designed for...ultralight fishing. Don't try to cross over to heavier work with this one though, it is not overbuilt.
Opening her up, we see very few parts, something I'm very fond of. The less parts there are...the less chances of a part breaking. I see there is the same ball bearing used as in the earlier 308s and 408s. That rotor is threaded, so be careful breaking it loose.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809713392_e84a4e3c79_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn9xhC)
The drag system was really crusty, lots of corrosion and rust.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809216258_f10d3a5307_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn6Zvm)
I busted that asbestos washer cleaning it, so I subbed in a red fiber beauty from the forties. In these low power drag systems just about any material will work as long as it's clean and smooth.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809566051_428962e164_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn8Mug)
OK Mitchell...what's the deal? You make a lightweight rotor and then stuff it full of a huge lead counterbalance weight. All the advantage of the plastic's lightness is trumped by that giant lead slab, and it ain't even all that balanced!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809566411_120e5225a2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn8MAt)
Here are the nuggets all cleaned and ready to get back to work.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809566291_1980bee788_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn8Myp)
This reel was loose enough that straight Penn Blue wasn't too stiff to use.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809713037_9af5bfcd30_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn9xbv)
This reel is going to replace my 408 for bass/crappie fishing. The 408 is a much cleaner, more collectible reel. I'd rather shelve it and scratch up this 310...eBay is crawling with more if parts are needed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809565821_cc49b382c8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn8Mqi)
I found a very light power handle knob for this reel. It doesn't upset the balance of the handle at all, but provides a lot better grip for my meat hooks. 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48809215818_b33396af77_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hn6ZnL)
Mike,
You can sure see the Taiwanese influence in those late Mitchell Sports reels. The 310UL came at the very end of Mitchell Sports USA's ownership, 1989/90, when they moved manufacturing to Taiwan. In 1991 they were sold to Johnson Worldwide, i.e. Johnson Outdoors.
Good report, Mo....you are getting to be a "spin master" !!
Good job, Mo. I didn't realize the 310 was the same size as the 308/408.
Two more Heddons coming this week, the 242 should arrive today. Also got a mint 260-R with box and papers that should be here mid-week.
I've lost count on numbers, this should run my total up to around 15 Heddons. Still looking for one more smaller convertible Heddon with ball bearing and helical gears. I'm thinking the 234 would be a prospect.
Looking for ideas on more B-grades, maybe Daiwa, Zebco, South Bend, and Omori made Shakespeares. The better grade South Bends have been scarce on the big auction lately.
Quote from: festus on September 30, 2019, 03:24:27 PM
Looking for ideas on more B-grades, maybe Daiwa, Zebco, South Bend, and Omori made Shakespeares. The better grade South Bends have been scarce on the big auction lately.
I think those Omori made reels are a good bargain Chester. They seem to have made reels for everyone at some point. Either that or everyone was copying
them! I scored this boxed SB 960 Classic a few days ago...paid top dollar too...it pains me to say that. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on September 30, 2019, 04:41:29 PM
I think those Omori made reels are a good bargain Chester. They seem to have made reels for everyone at some point. Either that or everyone was copying them! I scored this boxed SB 960 Classic a few days ago...paid top dollar too...it pains me to say that. 8)
;) I saw that one and went :o........ ;D
Can't pay too much for a good reel, IMO...
At the end, if we have a couple of tons of reels -- they will either all be sold to someone else -- or not cherished perhaps as much as we would wish.
And the grim reality is -- if any of our tackle stashes were sold when we needed the extra $$$ -- they would likely only cover 2 or 3 months of care in an advanced non-medical facility.
So, get what you can afford & enjoy -- while you are still sucking air -- and enjoy the ride..
It's All Good!
Best,
Fred
Quote from: mo65 on September 30, 2019, 04:41:29 PM
Quote from: festus on September 30, 2019, 03:24:27 PM
Looking for ideas on more B-grades, maybe Daiwa, Zebco, South Bend, and Omori made Shakespeares. The better grade South Bends have been scarce on the big auction lately.
I think those Omori made reels are a good bargain Chester. They seem to have made reels for everyone at some point. Either that or everyone was copying them! I scored this boxed SB 960 Classic a few days ago...paid top dollar too...it pains me to say that. 8)
Here's my take on a NIB South Bend 960.
Those were list priced at 40 bucks. Suppose you found a blue light special for 25 bucks in 1977 at Kmart.
Using one of several online inflation calculators, that would equate to roughly $112 nowadays.
I seriously doubt you can find a brand new reel off the shelf reel at Dick's, Academy Sports, Cabela's, or BPS for anywhere near that price.
I recently paid $150 AUD for a very nice DAM 3001. In 1985 I bought one new for approx $300 AUD.
Sometimes, dealers know they have something good, but don't know how good.
We have a couple of local people who do yard sales frequently. I give them reels that I have enjoyed and lost interest in.
They are good people going through a tough time and appreciate the reels.
Basto
Scored these two Mitchell 304, one with the big spool and one with smaller spool.
I know nothing about these reels, but gave them a B because I've always heard they were were in the lower end of Mitchells. Not really seen anything yet that convinces me they are B grade other than maybe the spool and drag.
Hate to disagree, Chester --
But those 304 - 305 - 304S - 314 - 315 round bodied Mitchells are "A" reels, at least in my book.
Solid components, simple mechanisms -- no shortcuts on these.
These came from the old CAP's -- and carry an impressive amount of history.
I have maybe 40 of these, plus a lot of NOS parts, spools, bodies, rotors, etc...
Check out the 314 model -- it even has a modified/double hesitation system for better line lay -- like on the 308 & 302.
I will trade you any Heddons I have for those "B" grade reels in that photo -- straight across...
Clean, service, observe, soak in the engineering -- mount one on an ultralight rod -- then make your evaluation.
Can't take what others say as the Gospel -- they may or often times -- may not have enough information -- to be correct.
Judge for yourself. You already have the expert skills and knowledge to do a proper evaluation.
Looking forward to one of your excellent tutorials.
Best,
Fred
Fred posted while I was typing & I agree with him. I have about 15 variations of the CAP/Mitchell/Garcia 304 & 314 series', probably 25 reels. That was my first open faced spinning reel and I used it exclusively for about 7 or 8 years until I broke the handle stud off the main gear shaft when I was 20. The replacement was my first Cardinal 6 and I never looked back with my Cardinal love. I kept that 304 and bought a replacement main gear so fixed it a few years back. It still has the Shakespeare 8# Braided nylon Wonderline on it. I may get nostalgic and put it on one of my fiberglass SB or Wonderods one of these days and catch a few fish with it again. :D I would say A-/B+. They are very, very basic but at least they were made with quality materials. The really good ones had planamatic gearing for even line lay. Even the plastic crosswind blocks have pretty much stood the test of time. I would take one of these over most Japanese or Asian spinners any day.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 03, 2019, 06:56:42 PM
That was my first open faced spinning reel
Hey, we have something in common after all Tommy. :) :) :) My first open face spinner was a 304 as well. I bought it because it was less expensive than the 300 that I really wanted.
The 304 always seemed a little clunky compared to the 300. It may just be the larger rotor with its larger bail slamming shut. It's a big spool for such a small reel. Very robust too.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 03, 2019, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 03, 2019, 06:56:42 PM
That was my first open faced spinning reel
Hey, we have something in common after all Tommy. :) :) :) My first open face spinner was a 304 as well. I bought it because it was less expensive than the 300 that I really wanted.
The 304 always seemed a little clunky compared to the 300. It may just be the larger rotor with its larger bail slamming shut. It's a big spool for such a small reel. Very robust too.
-steve
Cool! That larger rotor helped reduce line twist. At least, though, the rotor spins in the appropriate direction. ;D I never have gotten used to the backwards motion of the 300. ::)
Quote from: foakes on October 03, 2019, 06:29:11 PM
Hate to disagree, Chester --
But those 304 - 305 - 304S - 314 - 315 round bodied Mitchells are "A" reels, at least in my book.
Best,
Fred
Fred, my mistake. I had the 204 mistaken for the 304. Then again, maybe it was the 324 that I remember that was a cheaper built reel.
I serviced one of the 304 this afternoon. This isn't really a tutorial, only a look inside. Didn't really see anything inferior.
Only problem I had was removing the cover plate screws. I didn't have a flathead screwdriver that fit those very well, but this tool from an old Shakespeare Royal Maroon did the job.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_20_05.jpeg)
Both of these reels were fully capable of fishing without tearing them down, but I wanted to see the insides of at least one of them. Similar grease as I've found in Mitchell 308 and 408 in the past.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_20_36.jpeg)
The oscillation slide was in good shape.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_21_07.jpeg)
Drive gear also looked good.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_21_33.jpeg)
Anti-reverse assembly reminds me of some of the larger reels, only designed to fit a round housing.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_21_55.jpeg)
These flathead screws that hold the oscillation block are also very fine.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_22_17.jpeg)
Removing the axle.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_23_30.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_23_07.jpeg)
The schematic doesn't show a breakdown of the drag assembly parts, so let's see what's underneath.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_23_59.jpeg)
Interesting.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_24_22.jpeg)
The rotor nut has regular right hand threads, and if I remember correctly it was 7mm.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_24_44.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_25_08.jpeg)
The bail assembly and anti-reverse assembly were functioning as they should, so I left them intact, but gave them a good scrubbing with a toothbrush and Dawn dishwashing detergent, then a rinse in water and let dry.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_25_39.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_26_18.jpeg)
These are compact little reels with a nice diameter spool. They should be very versatile, could be filled with 4, 6, or 8 lb mono and maybe even 10 lb. mono if the situation arises. This one weighs 8.15 oz without line. Maybe a tad heavier than a 308 or 408. Apparently these reels wholesaled for less than 10 bucks. On one box there was a sticker that read, "FSA EA." Usually that's some type of code. I used to buy wholesale from Star Sales in Knoxville. The used the code GREAT SMOKY which translated into 12345 67890. So, if you picked up an article in the store that read "ORK EA," it wholesaled for $8.29.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/29/17863_03_10_19_4_26_47.jpeg)
cute little reels those 304
I have the the "lefty" version, right handed 305 mitchell.
its one of my precious collectible reels on my office corner desk
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=24256.0
Great Job! I always wanted to see what they looked like broken down. Thanks for sharing :).
Well done, Chester! I am surprised, though, that you seldom disassemble the bail to clean out the cavities and clean the bail arm & spring. That is, in my procedures, one of the more important steps. I want to know what's in there, which is usually a bunch of old grease because they used to think greasing the bail springs was a good idea, and make sure it's good to go over the long haul.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 04, 2019, 01:27:46 AM
Well done, Chester! I am surprised, though, that you seldom disassemble the bail to clean out the cavities and clean the bail arm & spring. That is, in my procedures, one of the more important steps. I want to know what's in there, which is usually a bunch of old grease because they used to think greasing the bail springs was a good idea, and make sure it's good to go over the long haul.
Tommy, if the bail is functioning poorly or the bail arm and other parts of the assembly are dirty, I always disassemble them for cleanup. I learned the hard way by breaking and disfiguring a couple bail springs beyond repair that should have been left alone.
Quote from: festus on October 04, 2019, 12:13:04 AM
These are compact little reels with a nice diameter spool. They should be very versatile, could be filled with 4, 6, or 8 lb mono and maybe even 10 lb. mono if the situation arises.
I was using at least 12#; maybe 15#. There must have been a lot of Spanish mackerel at the pier that year because that's what I think of when someone says 304. You need the heavier line to sling shot macs over the rail.
-steve
Ahh...the ol' Mitch 304...everybody's sentimental favorite it seems. Personally I feel it falls right into the "B" camp. It has a more budget minded design, no steel/bronze main, not much in the way of bearings, but performs very well when used as intended. That is the definition of "B-Grade" to me. Great look inside Chester, I guess I better buy myself a 304 too. I'm already lurking for a 302. I can't seem to stop finding reels I want...:P
Here's one more I have no idea where it came from??? ??? ::) Pflueger 1022. I'll post a partial walk through later.
Seems those "waifs & strays" will find you , somehow, doesn't it !
Quote from: Crow on October 18, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
Seems those "waifs & strays" will find you , somehow, doesn't it !
Yep, got my share of mules, bastards, illegits, and mediocres. ;D
Here's one that screams early 80s. The age of cheap bearings(if any at all), rear drag, and flashy body graphics. Kids like me couldn't wait to get one of these things for Christmas, only to find out later that we liked our old reels better. I'm glad I bought this thing though, because taking it apart I learned a few things, and learning never gets old.
Popping off the side plate we see the standard 80s fare...cast gears...stamped parts...in a fairly simple design.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48958007161_21cb4a5978_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAfzRK)
This bearing has a plastic retainer. I don't know if that is why this reel feels a bit rough, or its just from wear, as this reel has been used. What I do know, is that I have reels with absolutely no bearings that feel much smoother.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957455543_ec265ca553_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAcKT6)
Every reel mechanic or enthusiast has that one thing that makes them want to throw the reel right out the back door. For me...it's these tiny retainer clips...sheesh!! They add serious time to removing the main shaft, as opposed to a simple screw or pin.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48958191832_6ccf9a2ef5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAgwKJ)
I guess you have to look at it like the manufacturer. Nobody is going to service this thing, if it busts, they'll toss it and buy the latest model. Well guess what Shakespeare? I serviced mine...and never even lost a retainer clip...thank you Jesus for magnetic screwdrivers. :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48958006976_f5d374e1fc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAfzNy)
Corrosion is an issue for freshwater reels too, as can be seen in the pic below. I don't know if this line roller was meant to spin free, but it does now!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957455303_2e3341c7ef_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAcKNX)
Now we come to the learning experience. This is how the drag stack came out of the reel...and it just doesn't look right. The washer between the drag shaft and keyed metal(indicated by green arrow) is doing nothing. The blue arrow points to a keyed metal that is grinding against the drag spring. Neither of these points make sense. I couldn't find a schematic for this particular model, but many similar models have the metal washers arranged as eared/keyed/eared, not keyed/eared/keyed, and this would be correct. I have no idea what Shakespeare actually put in this drag stack, but I'm going to correct what I have here to work with.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957718223_f9af8248a3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAe6Y4)
I also noted when looking at schematics that most of the period Shakespeares used Rulon drag washers. These drags looked like old Smoothies though, and when I broke out a Penn 113H Smoothie, my suspicion was confirmed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957455253_505b728a3a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAcKN6)
First up, a Delrin washer replaces the brass washer between the reel body and drag shaft. I took the brass washer and placed it before the drag spring.(yellow arrow) The Smoothie that was pulled from between the drag shaft and first keyed washer is placed between the last keyed and the brass washer.(purple arrow) All moving surfaces are now flanked by a proper friction disc. This lesson has me taking a second look at Smoothies, as the drag on this reel is now fantastic!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957455033_52538a92bd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAcKJi)
At the end of the day, it is what it is, just another mediocre B-Grade reel. But...like I said earlier...I learned a few things by opening it up. Knowledge hides in strange places.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48957455198_78c053d3f2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAcKM9)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48958006596_3e61b82b21_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hAfzG1)
Well done, Mike! Shakespeare sure went down hill during that time frame. ::)
Good job, Mo ! Now that you've done a rear drag, it won't be long before you tackle a "bait feeder" !!
Mo, thank you for the education about Rulon. I'd never heard the name before and never came across green drag washers. However, someone here showed photos of green Ambassadeur washers about a year ago. Was the grey speckled material used in Penn drag washers also Rulon? Some of us were calling those "asbestos" washers without knowing what they were really made of.
-steve
Hi Steve,
The green washers I pictured aren't the Rulon...those are Smooth Drag Smoothies. Some previous owner must have replaced the Rulon with those. Rulon comes in a big variety of formulas and colors. Many consider them the best drag washer material of all. Here's a helpful link:
https://www.tstar.com/rulon
Oh, OK. Sorry for mixing it up. I guess Dawn would be the one to know what the green washers are made of.
I made the mistake of first looking at the Wikipedia article listing different Rulon materials. One of them is "green speckled, bearing grade with noise dampening characteristics" so, I'm going, that must be it. Wrong.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 26, 2019, 06:28:38 AM
I made the mistake of first looking at the Wikipedia article listing different Rulon materials. One of them is "green speckled, bearing grade with noise dampening characteristics" so, I'm going, that must be it. Wrong.
-steve
Yeah...I saw that "green speckled" comment on Wikipedia too...but I've looked everywhere for a picture of that rulon 957 and can't find one. From what I can gather, Rulon is a plastic, and in pics appears smooth. Maybe Philaroman can comment on this...I seem to remember him knowing some info on Rulon.
The Smoothies are a more fibrous material. I know the guys said the old Smoothies tended to get sticky in high drag settings on conventionals, but in these lower powered spinning applications I'm seeing no problem. 8)
Over the years, I have pulled apart a few reels where knowledgeable guys had used Rulon for drags.
The discs showed absolutely no wear -- or very little, after some pretty aggressive offshore long-rangers.
I just put them back in with no grease -- since they are self-lubricating -- then serviced the rest of the reel as usual.
Makes either a good drag stack, or just for an under gear washer.
Similar to Sal's favorite -- Delrin.
Good product!
I belong to a few engineering tech suppliers -- just to stay up on innovations, not because I am smart, or anything --
Here is a description from one source -- the interesting thing to me, is the term: no "slip/stick" at low speeds. Which reportedly means -- no erratic motion at low speeds.
Maybe worthwhile exploring further?
Best, Fred
RULON® LR (FILLED PTFE) – MAROON
Material Information
Rulon® is the brand name for Saint Gobain's reinforced PTFE. Filled PTFE offers a combination of high compressive strength, a low coefficient of friction, chemical resistance, electrical insulation, and excellent abrasion and corrosion resistance without the need for lubrication. These materials can run from -400º F to 500º F with or without lubrication, which makes them ideal for use in bearings or seals. Rulon® material specifically is known to have the unique property of no "slip stick", which means it has no erratic motion at low speeds.
Rulon® LR is the most widely used grade of Rulon®. It offers high wear resistance, low friction, good electrical properties, and chemical inertness. It can be bonded to nearly any surface to provide wear resistance and reduce friction. This makes Rulon® LR a great material for sleeves and flange or thrust bearings. It is available in a maroon color in the forms of strip, rod, and tube.
Good info. Fred, thanks.
Anyone remember the "Dragenstein" posts we did about 2015. Just before I came to allentani.com, I did a search on drags cause I was using the "Tackle Tour" site for reel research, and they had a chart for drag performance giving values for odd sounding parameters that I couldn't understand. No help on the Tackle Tour test values, but a
pretty good technical read. The author did alot of testing on light to med. sized spinning and baitcasting reels with his "Dragenstein" machine and found that rulon tested the best: tocatchafish.blogspot.com.
PTFE is Teflon by another name.
Frank
mo65
Here is a spec sheet I found appears more olive in color, there were several other Rulon materials listed as green or turquoise
Not to keep beating this dead horse, but aren't we concerned about our "stick-slip"?
Rulon® J is an all-polymeric reinforced, dull gold colored PTFE compound that operates exceptionally well against soft mating surfaces such as 316 stainless steel, aluminum, mild steel, brass and other plastics. The unique "shaft friendly" material is also low in friction and wear and self-lubricating.
Rulon® J has one of the lowest coefficients of friction of most reinforced PTFE materials. This makes it ideally suited for start/stop applications where stick-slip must be eliminated. The tribological properties of this material also make it suitable for both bearing and wear component applications.
https://www.plasticsintl.com/shop-by-material/rulon-j (https://www.plasticsintl.com/shop-by-material/rulon-j)
-steve
One more Heddon here, the 210-R. These aren't very common, one of those in-betweener sizes, too big for b@$$ fishing and too small for big catfish.
You have "corrupted " me, Festus ! ;) These things just keep following me home !!
Quote from: Crow on October 30, 2019, 07:09:42 PM
You have "corrupted " me, Festus ! ;) These things just keep following me home !!
Those things are awful close together! They may start breeding! ;D
I'll bet that's what's happening ;)!! I *surely* couldn't have had ALL of them follow me home ::)!
That's a full stable Crow...you guys have Heddon fever! 8)
l don't have any spincasters, Crow, but in total, you have about the same amount of Heddons overall as me.
Only really want one more Heddon -- a Spinmatic -- preferrably the 280.....then l can concentrate more on the Daiwa B-grades. Got a Daiwa 1000C on the way.
you could just get the Daiwa Spinmatic... but I guess it doesn't work that way
Quote from: festus on October 30, 2019, 10:44:21 PM
Only really want one more Heddon -- a Spinmatic -- preferrably the 280.....then l can concentrate more on the Daiwa B-grades. Got a Daiwa 1000C on the way.
Quote from: philaroman on October 31, 2019, 02:39:50 AM
you could just get the Daiwa Spinmatic... but I guess it doesn't work that way
So many reels...so little time...8)
Here's a rare photo of both A and B reels living in harmony, but note the As took the top shelf, hmm...:D.
Nice display, Mo :o!!
All three of those spin casters are "incompletes", Festus....missing bits and chunks. In fact, there are only 3-4 of the reels pictured that are 'complete"....there are some "extra parts" in the box....spools, and such, mostly.....so I should have some fun working on the "puzzle"!!
I should have added that there were a couple Daiwa reels, and a few "other brands", in the "deal", also......I bought a "large" box of somebody else's junk !! :D . I counted 34 "reels" (if the "frame" is there, I counted it as a reel ???), and a coffee can full of extra spools, handles , and such...in the box. Shipping was more than the cost of the reels, but, counting "everything"....it figures out to about $2.30 per reel :P. Cheap fun !!
Nice group, Mike!
QuoteI should have some fun working on the "puzzle"!!
Good luck, Crow! ::) I hate puzzles! :D
Quote from: Crow on October 31, 2019, 02:34:49 PM
Counting "everything"....it figures out to about $2.30 per reel :P. Cheap fun !!
Only $2.30 per reel...for all the fun you'll have sifting through that box...cheap fun indeed!
Working in the "B Hive" again today kids...this Daiwa B-250 has all the earmarks of a B-Grade piece. The assembly of shims and spacers around the bearing look like an attempt to use up existing parts. The drags are those tiny washers associated with a spool that rides directly on the shaft...no spool sleeve. It also has the familiar external bail trip. These A, B, and C model Daiwas all feel about the same to me...whether they have ball bearings, bronze bearings, or no bearings. I think the gear and it's support materials(or lack thereof) have a lot to do with the feel also, especially when a lesser quality ball bearing is used, as is the case with many of these reels. Although none of the three lines are my top choice for a spinning reel, they are all a decent value at current prices. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on November 19, 2019, 04:10:41 PM
Working in the "B Hive" again today kids...this Daiwa B-250 has all the earmarks of a B-Grade piece. The assembly of shims and spacers around the bearing look like an attempt to use up existing parts. The drags are those tiny washers associated with a spool that rides directly on the shaft...no spool sleeve. It also has the familiar external bail trip. These A, B, and C model Daiwas all feel about the same to me...whether they have ball bearings, bronze bearings, or no bearings. I think the gear and it's support materials(or lack thereof) have a lot to do with the feel also, especially when a lesser quality ball bearing is used, as is the case with many of these reels. Although none of the three lines are my top choice for a spinning reel, they are all a decent value at current prices. 8)
I agree about the same feel in these Daiwa A,B, and C models, Mo, except for the little 1000C. My 1000C is as smooth as any other brand I've ever owned. If you can get your hands on a good one, you'll probably agree. If the gears weren't built with the cheaper metal, I'd give it an A.
Hmm, that B-250 is built much better than the B-130, no comparison. Thanks for the look inside.
BTW, I have a Daiwa SS-1 on the way, probably considered a B grade.
Quote from: festus on November 19, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
I agree about the same feel in these Daiwa A,B, and C models, Mo, except for the little 1000C. My 1000C is as smooth as any other brand I've ever owned. If you can get your hands on a good one, you'll probably agree. If the gears weren't built with the cheaper metal, I'd give it an A.
Thanks for the tip about the 1000c Chester, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a deal on one. I've been researching the Daiwa X models also...they seem to have more features I like in a spinner.(internal bail trip, spool sleeve, larger drags) I must be sick in the head...I enjoy studying schematics as much as restoring the reels! :P
Quote from: mo65 on November 19, 2019, 05:23:07 PM...they seem to have more features I like in a spinner.(internal bail trip, spool sleeve, larger drags) I must be sick in the head...I enjoy studying schematics as much as restoring the reels!
sounds like a Whisker -- Daiwa's still makin' 'em w/ few changes,
but the old Japanese ones must be in/pushin' their 40's
for decades, the SS-750 was (still is?) the only UL w/ tall spool & 6-stack
(worm oscillation, if you don't mind that)
The reel in the middle is a Daiwa SS No. 1. The other two are Daiwa 1000C. They look to be built identical other than the anti-reverse lever and handle cover screw made of metal on the No.1. Other than this, they are probably the same reels. We'll find out whenever I take it apart for service.
These reels are smooth enough to be rated A, but considering the metal of the main gear, I give them a B.
Nice little reel Chester...I was checking them out on fleabay...they're kind pricey for a "B". I guess if you think about it, most folks don't care if a reel has gears able to tow a car. Many folks love the pot metal geared reels. That soft metal also makes them feel smooth when cranked. But...I agree with you...she's a fine B.
I've been studying these Daiwa 70s-80s reels, and some of them are hard to call a B. Especially ones like this 1600X. It has a large 3-stack drag, solid spool sleeve, nice big bronze bushings on the main, and an AR ratchet ahead of the gear mesh. This build protects the soft gear, and makes it hard to slap a B-Grade on it.8)
That's an ultralight reel, the ss-1, right? Perhaps the light-weight softer metal gear is fine for that application.
Quote from: Gfish on November 28, 2019, 10:58:02 PM
That's an ultralight reel, the ss-1, right? Perhaps the light-weight softer metal gear is fine for that application.
Yep, they were considered ultralight back in the day. The 1000C and SS No. 1 weigh a hair under 8 oz but they're built very sturdy.
Daiwa made two even smaller ultralights, the 500C and the 700C. I ordered a 500C and it should be here tomorrow. Might possibly be the smallest spinning reel l've ever owned.
I was on threadlining.com -- a very nice XUL Forum that got eaten up by bots
(big kudos to Boss+Mods, for keeping the SOBs out)
Daiwa's 1/100/1000-size wasn't really thought of as UL
not sure if it was the "well over 7 oz." weight
or the fact that Daiwa made so many smaller reels
(some, much smaller)... 500-850, GS-0 (GS-00?), MiniMite, etc.
Quote from: philaroman on November 29, 2019, 07:16:02 AM
I was on threadlining.com -- a very nice XUL Forum that got eaten up by bots
(big kudos to Boss+Mods, for keeping the SOBs out)
Daiwa's 1/100/1000-size wasn't really thought of as UL
not sure if it was the "well over 7 oz." weight
or the fact that Daiwa made so many smaller reels
(some, much smaller)... 500-850, GS-0 (GS-00?), MiniMite, etc.
I think reel size designation could be relative to body size. I would never be able to efficiently operate one of those mini size reels. ::) My clubby digits would always be getting in the way. :D
I've always considered reels 8 ounces or lighter an ultralight, but after checking out a Daiwa 500C that came in the mail this morning, I may change my mind.
Here is a Daiwa 1000C side-by-side with a D-A-M Quick 265 Microlite. They weigh about the same.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17863_29_11_19_12_55_27.jpeg)
Here is a Daiwa 1000C side-by-side with a Daiwa 500 C. The 1000C weighs 3 ounces more.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17863_29_11_19_12_56_26.jpeg)
BTW, I came across another B-grade spinner, the Pflueger 1122. It reminds me of some of the Shakespeares. It's in good shape and ready to fish, but I'll do a look inside in a day or two.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/30/17863_29_11_19_12_57_09.jpeg)
Phil, I don't find anything at that wed address.
Chester, so you're saying the 500C weighs 5 ounces?
I love small reels.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 29, 2019, 08:23:03 PM
Phil, I don't find anything at that wed address.
...it started around fans of XUL-Joe-Robinson-style: http://piscatorialabsurdities.com/1.html
...then, evolved into all things UL
...then, got bombarded by Russian bots & died, many years ago
...and, the book is out of print
:'( :'( :'(
Quote from: oc1 on November 29, 2019, 08:23:03 PM
Phil, I don't find anything at that wed address.
Chester, so you're saying the 500C weighs 5 ounces?
I love small reels.
-steve
Steve--
Yes, on my scales the Daiwa 500C weighs 5.04 oz without line. I have a Pflueger Trion I'm going to give to my granddaughter that's the smallest reel I've owned prior to this. It weighs 5.9 oz. The same size Pflueger President weighs 6.2 oz.
This little Daiwa has a line capacity of 140 yds of 2 lb mono, 85 yds of 4 lb mono, and 65 yds of 6 lb mono. 2 or 4 lb mono would be about right. I've used 2 lb. mono in the past in snag-free ponds for bream. Those little 1-1/2" Rebel Crickhoppers in yellow, green, or brown and Rebel 1-1/2" floating minnows in rainbow trout pattern are deadly.
The foremost authority on vintage and collectible open faced spinning reels, and my good friend, the late Ben Wright (may you RIP Ben), states in his last book (2011 Edition Value Guide) that there was no weight-to-size industry standard.
He lists this chart as a guide:
"Weight Size Designation
0-4 oz. Bantam or Featherweight
5-7 oz. Ultra-lite
8-9 oz. Light size
10-13 oz. Meddium size
14 oz.+ Large/Heavy duty"
So, based on the chart a 7.99 oz reel would be considered an ultra-lite.
He then states: "This, however, was not used by all manufacturers. Some manufactures simply used the term ultra-lite to specify the smallest open face spinning reel they manufactured." He then gave this example: "The Penn model No. 716 weighs approximately 8.5 oz. but was advertised as ultra-lite spinning reel."
He goes on to say some use physical size as a determination, while others use line capacity, and again states: "there is no set standard.....therefore, you can be the judge." ;)
I just go by the line, using a basic decent mono like TrileneXL, as a benchmark:
if a reel is more suitable for 2 lb., than it is for 6 lb. -- it's a UL
if a reel is more suitable for 6 lb., than it is for 2 lb. -- it's a Light
that's how it still works in my mind, even though I've mostly switched to braidQuote from: festus on November 29, 2019, 10:24:48 PM
...This little Daiwa has a line capacity of 140 yds of 2 lb mono, 85 yds of 4 lb mono, and 65 yds of 6 lb mono. 2 or 4 lb mono would be about right. I've used 2 lb. mono in the past in snag-free ponds for bream...
instead of regular mono try the bulk (guide-size) 100m/100yd tippet spools
5X should test >4lb. & the thinner diameter of pre-stretched may allow you to get the whole spool onto a 500c
6X w/ backing would give you same diameter as 2 lb., but test closer to 3 lb. w/ better quality/uniformity
These 6000 series Zebcos get a pretty good report from most folks. Understandably...since they are a solid feeling reel when serviced or new. I have heard mention several times that they were basically the same reel as the previous Sterling series, just a different paint job. Without opening the reel you'd go along with that notion alright.
Then I popped the side plate off this 6010 and the education began.:o There isn't much at all in common with a Sterling in this thing. The first photo calls out a few differences. The blue arrow indicates that the spool clicker has become plastic. The green arrows point to the drive gear shaft bushings...or lack thereof. There's only one, it's cast in the side plate. The red arrow shows that the anti-reverse has moved from out front to behind the gear mesh. The drive gear shaft is no longer steel, but machined from the cast gear, illustrated by the white arrow. Despite all these "down grades" the 6000 series reels still have a fantastic feel. I've said it before...Zebco were sorcerers!
The yellow arrow points out a bent part, the spool shaft pin. The second photo shows how I straightened it. I bent slow and grit my teeth...LOL! Don't tell anybody, but if it broke I was going to sub in a small nail! :P
The third photo is all the parts cleaned and ready to reassemble. The drag set up is that tiny Teflon 3-stack. It's probably the perfect light action drag system. I seriously doubt you could make a reel this solid from fewer parts...the designer was a genius.
Last but not least, a pic of the finished reel. It appears the 6000 series is yet another decent B-Grade spinner flying under the radar. 8)
Great job on that, Mo. I have the 6020, one size up from the 6010. Good reels, I wonder if Zebco had in mind of competing with the gold Daiwas back in the day.
Did you weigh the reel, Mo? There is also an ultraight Zebco 6000 that appears to be about the same size as a D-A-M 265 or Daiwa 1000C.
Quote from: festus on December 09, 2019, 02:00:29 AM
Did you weigh the reel, Mo? There is also an ultraight Zebco 6000 that appears to be about the same size as a D-A-M 265 or Daiwa 1000C.
The 6010 weighs 9.3 ounces. The 6000 weighs 7.6 ounces. It's hard for me to believe there could ever be a need for two reels that close in size. Absolutely anything one would do, the other could do too. I don't have a 1000c...and my 265 is on a rod...so I wedged the 6010 in between a Quick 1000 and a Mitch 408. It's slightly bigger than those two, so I'll assume the 6000 would be about their size.
I was just comparing my two PENN 7500ss spinners. One has a bronze main gear and the other has a white alloy main gear.
Does this class the alloy gear one as a B grade reel?
Greg
Quote from: basto on December 12, 2019, 11:09:03 PM
I was just comparing my two PENN 7500ss spinners. One has a bronze main gear and the other has a white alloy main gear.
Does this class the alloy gear one as a B grade reel?
Greg
If you go by the book it does. :D I rarely go by the book anymore though...some of the best reels I've seen wouldn't fare so well by the book. 8)
Yes Mo. I agree. I have a couple of spinners with white main gears that I would consider A class reels.....or maybe B plus
Greg
This tiny guy is another one of those "Honey B" reels...the kind that make you wonder how so little can work so well. I stated in an earlier thread that this reel had improvements over the 70X. I was going by the schematic...and the lesson learned? Schematics ain't the final word. Schematics don't show certain bushings, sleeves, and other important features. This 70XX isn't better than a 70X...it is different than a 70X.
These photos below are the reel as received. It was in great shape...probably unused. The feel was very free, these Korean reels with looser tolerances have this feel.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260703777_330596bac9_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZZ1V) (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260032063_73ae683c4f_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3WxkD)
Opening the side plate we find that typical Daiwa design of the era. the "C" series usually have nylon sleeves for the drive gear shaft. It looks like this bird has brass sleeves for the drive gear shaft...but wait...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260703632_6760f93220_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYYq)
Fooled again, it's just two brass shims. There are no sleeves for the drive gear shaft.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260031933_3bc3f23095_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3Wxip)
The drive gear looks better in the 70X, as can be seen in this pic from Chester's post. It has a brass drive shaft...and brass sleeves in the frame...as indicated by the yellow arrows.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260702882_11b4385950_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYKu)
Then we come to the pinion gear, and this is where the 70X stumbles. It has that pinion attached to the rotor, with no bearing or bushing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260703397_e1900e212f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYUn)
This brings us to the point where the 70XX shines. As indicated by the green arrow, the double X has a pinion gear separate from the rotor. The blue arrow points to a nice brass bearing. The drive gear(red arrow) is all pot metal...even the shaft.
So the 70XX has a better pinion gear, while the 70X has a better drive gear. Six of one...half dozen of the other...I bet blindfolded you couldn't tell one from the other! Kinda knocks the wind from the sails of my post. :-\
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260031288_2ba5628e48_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3Wx7h)
The drag system is perfect for a tiny reel...just a single teflon washer under a keyed washer...pushing on a spring washer. After a cleanup it should be slick as a ribbon. The drag clicker is metal on this spool.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260509981_e892f3f256_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3YZpB)
Here are all the parts cleaned and prepped. The penny gives scale as to just how tiny this reel is.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260703262_0d1c313456_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYS3)
Are there hillbillies in Korea? This bearing retainer design is pure hillbilly...two small screws...yeah. ::) I'd be worried about that pot metal pinion on a bigger reel, but for what this little guy will be doing it should work just fine.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260509721_bc4ec5d2c7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3YZk8)
Usually I'll oil the gear shaft sleeves, as it makes a tight fitting reel a little more free. No freedom needed here...I did the opposite. I greased everything with Super Lube and only oiled the AR dog and the drag clicker. This should take up the slack...kill the "clunkiness".
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260703067_62aed231af_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYNF)
I've picked on this little reel pretty hard, you might think I wasn't too fond of it, but I pick on every reel. This thing ain't no NASA build, but it's a fine reel for what it is. It's not the type of light spinner you'd want to push. If you hooked a big pike while crappie fishing...well...you'd be singin' the "Pot Metal Blues".
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260702967_20e4c6a395_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3ZYLX)
Does anyone know if there are other XX models? This tiny 70XX is the only model I've seen with two Xs. Maybe it's highly collectible...and I can trade it for a new truck. 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49260509196_08fa0289e2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2i3YZb5)
Never knew they existed until you posted a pic the other day. Could this be one of those reels that was sold overseas and not imported here? Cool little reel. Imagine a reel half that size and you have the Daiwa 500C.
Actually, I've only seen the gears stripped on a reel once. A few years ago a friend caught a flathead catfish about 35 lbs on one of those $20 Walmart Shakespeare Tiger combos. If he hadn't been reeling when the fish was taking drag, I think the reel would have handled it. He got the fish in the boat, nevertheless.
Quote from: festus on December 22, 2019, 10:52:11 PM
Imagine a reel half that size and you have the Daiwa 500C.
No kiddin'? Wow...I'd have to have my reading glasses on to fish it. I'll pick up a 500C one of these days, most are fairly pricey.
Mo, here's a 500C side-by-side with a 70X. Those 500C are the tiniest spinners I've ever seen. I thought the little Shakespeare Microspins and smallest Pflueger Presidents were small, but these are these are tinier. The external bail trip actually makes the 500C look larger than it really is.
I love small reels but, dang, it's hard to appreciate the size while looking at a picture. The model numbers don't help at all if you do not have the rest of the line-up for comparison. From the bit I can read of the spool capacity, it is a tad smaller than the MiniMite and more modern to boot. Chester, is it about 110 yd of 4#?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on December 23, 2019, 04:08:10 AM
I love small reels but, dang, it's hard to appreciate the size while looking at a picture. The model numbers don't help at all if you do not have the rest of the line-up for comparison. From the bit I can read of the spool capacity, it is a tad smaller than the MiniMite and more modern to boot. Chester, is it about 110 yd of 4#?
-steve
Yes Steve, the Daiwa 70X and the 700C hold 110 yds of #4. The smaller 500C holds 110 yds #2 and 85 yds #4. I seldom go down to 2 lb mono but it works very well for throwing 1-1/2" Rapalas or 1/64 to 1/32 Trout Magnets.
Quote from: oc1 on December 23, 2019, 04:08:10 AM
I love small reels but, dang, it's hard to appreciate the size while looking at a picture.
That's why I like to use something for scale in the pic...like the penny.
Quote from: oc1 on December 23, 2019, 04:08:10 AM
I love small reels but, dang, it's hard to appreciate the size while looking at a picture. The model numbers don't help at all if you do not have the rest of the line-up for comparison. From the bit I can read of the spool capacity, it is a tad smaller than the MiniMite and more modern to boot. Chester, is it about 110 yd of 4#?
-steve
Here ya go, Steve, here's the 500C beside some coins.
I found this little Shimano 10 at an antique shop for $10, I've got a soft spot for some of these older Japanese reels.
That daiwa 500 must be a small reel might have to get one of those. I thought my little Shakespeare reel was small at 2lb/155yds 4lb/100yds .here is a picture of it next to a daiwa bg10.
Quote from: mo65 on December 23, 2019, 03:13:44 PM
That's why I like to use something for scale in the pic...like the penny.
I can relate to Rolling Rock easier than money. :)
-steve
Quote from: ClintB on December 24, 2019, 01:26:36 AM
I found this little Shimano 10 at an antique shop for $10, I've got a soft spot for some of these older Japanese reels.
Clint,
have you opened that MLZ 10 -- does it have brass bushings on the main gear?
if you're not ready to open the gearbox, yet, could you please do a photo showing:
- top of rotor (spool removed) & bottom of drag knob
- spool top / drag well (drag elements removed & spread out, if possible)
- handle removed (hex or square shaft?)
all in one photo is fine... I just need a good peek at the general set-up -- not, precise detail
wondering how close it is to the MLX & what's swappable
thanks
EDIT: found MLX/MLZ schematics (under miscellaneous... they don't rate their own link :( ):
https://www.reelschematic.com/reel-schematics/shimano-reel-schematics/shimano-misc-schematics/#gsc.tab=0
looks like the 20/200, 30/300 has 2 big brass bushings
& your 10 has 1 smaller bushing made of (?)... would love to know
Quote from: oc1 on December 24, 2019, 06:56:32 AM
I can relate to Rolling Rock easier than money. :)
A man after my own heart...;D
Nice lookin' mini reels Shark and Clint! 8)
wow.. those are really tiny reels
guys, do you really use those tiny reels?
how small are they compared to a shimano 2500 sonora/sahara? (thats the smallest I would go)
Steelfish
I use it for trout fishing here the fish are small about 2lbs you have to get through thick bush to get to the spots to fish and the creeks are small .so you only need a small rod and reel .
Daiwa BG 2500 next to the Shakespeare synergy 200
Kim
Kim,
What's the spool capacity on the little Shakespeare? Thanks.
-steve
Steve the little Shakespeare reel holds 2lb/155yds and 4lb/100
Kim
Cool, set up like a flyrod or maybe "down under style". Kim, do you get tourists fishing trout there like in NZ?
Quote from: Sharkb8 on December 31, 2019, 03:27:27 AM
Steelfish
I use it for trout fishing here the fish are small about 2lbs you have to get through thick bush to get to the spots to fish and the creeks are small .so you only need a small rod and reel .
Daiwa BG 2500 next to the Shakespeare synergy 200
Kim
thanks Kim for the pics, I actually have a tiny shakespeare reel like yours (actually mine looks "cheap") that came in trade with a bunch of broken rods, it has some 2# line installed but I dont have any reasons or intention of using it on the saltwater (I dont fish freshwater since there is no river, lagoon, dam, etc on a 150 miles radiuos from me).
the smaller spinning reel I have is a Shimano Magnumlite GT-X 2100 speedmaster reel 2/310 4/165, but its on my desk as shelf queen.
I like how you use the spinning reel on that "fly fishing style" reelseat rod, I have a brand new "EagleClaw" Black Eagle 5wt fly rod that I want to modify the reel seat to use it as spinning rod, but after seeing your rod I might just use it as is with a small spinning reels and 6# mono line
Quote from: steelfish on December 31, 2019, 07:13:23 PM
I have a brand new "EagleClaw" Black Eagle 5wt fly rod that I want to modify the reel seat to use it as spinning rod, but after seeing your rod I might just use it as is with a small spinning reels and 6# mono line
if your only/main use for tiny spinners is on a flyrod, instead of modifying the seat
you can just round off the corners of the foot a bit -- still works in a small spinning seat
esp., w/ modern cushioned hoods, you wouldn't even know the difference
just an option for budget disposables or a better model where spare frames are piling up from parts reels
HNY!!!
Gfish "down under rod" haha .I use to build my own fishing rods and these are good to use one handed with light line. A lot of tourists go to Victoria trout fishing its good there not so much here in south Australia.
Kim
On many old fly rods, you can drill out the butt end of the reel seat exposing the butt end of the blank. Glue a piece of hardwood dowel or fiberglass rod into the blank to extend it a foot or so. Cover the extension with cork or EVA or you favorite grip material. Replace the striper and first running snake guide with spinning guides. You're good to go.
For baitcasting you will probably want to replace all the guides.
-steve
Here's a Dam Quick International 10, I just picked up. It holds 125yds of 10lb and 195 of 6lb and features one ball bearing. I picked it up for $5+shipping.
Pics
That's an interesting little Quick reel...never saw that model before. Great buy! 8)
I've never seen one of those Quicks, either. I saw it on ebay and glad someone on here grabbed it.
Hard to pass up any Daiwa at 2 for $5 plus shipping. Both of these came by mail this afternoon. They're about the same size as a Mitchell 300. Both are fully functional, one has a slightly bent handle, and the other has a tad of corrosion on the bail wire. Both should clean up and make fine reels for freshwater. Before I bid on them I checked for a schematic online, found one. No ball bearings but really not surprised.
Quote from: oc1 on January 01, 2020, 03:47:13 AM
On many old fly rods, you can drill out the butt end of the reel seat exposing the butt end of the blank. Glue a piece of hardwood dowel or fiberglass rod into the blank to extend it a foot or so. Cover the extension with cork or EVA or you favorite grip material. Replace the striper and first running snake guide with spinning guides. You're good to go.
-steve
that was exactly what I was planning to do.
but after seeing that pic from
sharkb8 , I might just replace the 1st and 2nd guide as you said and use the reel down-under style
I also saw "someone" installing a "reelseat plate" on the cork foregrip and use it like that (without taking the fly reelseat out), seems like a pretty lazy job but the rod looked like a Double purpose rod after that or just go "Mcgyver" and use some "zip ties" to attach the spinning reel ;D
Fuji makes a reel seat plate that attaches to an existing handle of some sort. You can put it on with wrapping, tape or whatever.
https://www.mudhole.com/Fuji-NS7-Plate-Type-Reel-Seats (https://www.mudhole.com/Fuji-NS7-Plate-Type-Reel-Seats)
https://www.mudhole.com/Fuji-LS7-Plate-Type-Reel-Seats (https://www.mudhole.com/Fuji-LS7-Plate-Type-Reel-Seats)
-steve
Steelfish most of the rod I built (down under style) we're short rods 6ft or less you may find the rod you are building is to long and the fish will have to much leverage over you. Steve idea might be a better way to go in this case.
Kim
One more B grade to add, the Shakespeare 2210. I'll post a tutorial in a day or two.
Quote from: festus on January 17, 2020, 02:21:55 AM
One more B grade to add, the Shakespeare 2210. I'll post a tutorial in a day or two.
I have the 2200 version, very nice reel in book. Very smooth and well made 👍
Got one of these Daiwa GS-13 in the mail yesterday. Serviced it today and will post a breakdown in a day or two. Was hoping it would be worthy of the A rating, but not so imho. Stay tuned for why I gave it a B.
Quote from: festus on January 31, 2020, 01:13:06 AM
Got one of these Daiwa GS-13 in the mail yesterday.
...
Looks good, if nothing else. But, I have a feeling, festus, you're gonna tell us all about what the "else" might be.
Frank
Quote from: festus on January 31, 2020, 01:13:06 AM
Got one of these Daiwa GS-13 in the mail yesterday. Serviced it today and will post a breakdown in a day or two. Was hoping it would be worthy of the A rating, but not so imho. Stay tuned for why I gave it a B.
I studied the schematic and it has the earmarks of a high grade. 3-stack drag, large spool sleeve, forward AR, bearings on both gears. It even has an internal bail trip. I'm going to guess and say the gear material is the weak link. 8)
Lookin forward to the autopsy. Who's "P.J. Hardy 1581"?
Quote from: Gfish on January 31, 2020, 03:24:01 PM
Lookin forward to the autopsy. Who's "P.J. Hardy 1581"?
I imagine it's the first owner of the reel. Interesting story there. This reel came from a seller in California.
That PJ Hardy name sounded familiar. I searched on Facebook and found there is a guy in Middle Tennessee with the same name. I saw he had one common Facebook friend with me. I sent my friend a message and he said yes, he used to be a co-worker. He contacted the guy and he said the reel wasn't his but he wanted to buy it.
That's the cleanest owner identification I've ever seen on a reel. Somebody knew what they were doing.
The Man
It's 1981. Talk about getting a little help dating a reel. Wonder how he did it?
-steve
Quote from: festus on January 31, 2020, 04:03:37 PM
I imagine it's the first owner of the reel. Interesting story there. This reel came from a seller in California.
That PJ Hardy name sounded familiar. I searched on Facebook and found there is a guy in Middle Tennessee with the same name. I saw he had one common Facebook friend with me. I sent my friend a message and he said yes, he used to be a co-worker. He contacted the guy and he said the reel wasn't his but he wanted to buy it.
Chester,
Everything can be for sale, especially "B" grade reels! :D Sell it & make enough to buy 2 or three more! 8)
Got it 1981, thanks. Sounds right for a GS series. Great B reel IMO, surfcasters think they are durable workhorses(stripersonline).
I've had this one for who knows how long. Been a workhorse and still works great. Any idea what year this would be?
Shakespeare 2230 II
Quote from: Lunker Larry on February 01, 2020, 04:21:45 PM
I've had this one for who knows how long. Been a workhorse and still works great. Any idea what year this would be?
Shakespeare 2230 II
Early '70s.
Thanks Tommy
Here's another find from the local auction house. This Pflueger 429 is a large reel, about the same size as a Quick 270. It's a typical "B" type build...some good features...some not so good. The bail was busted, and the drag click wasn't working. Most interesting is the ball bearing, it has a nylon outer race and a soft clear plastic ball retainer. The inner race is steel...as are the balls. This reel was well worn, and that bearing is undamaged and very smooth, so I'm not going to laugh at it just yet.
In the first pic the red circled area indicates the click spring was merely popped off it's post. The blue arrow points to the sharp nub left behind on the pick up arm after that bail busted. The second photo shows how a Dremel tool can smooth that problem out. I like a bailess spinner. Third we have the parts all ready to reassemble...check out that bearing! The last photo is the reel after servicing. 8)
P.U.M: Pick Up, Mike!
Good save on the bail, Mo !
Good find on the Pflueger, Mo. I've seen that series on the auction but had no idea what the innards are like.
Cool reel Mo!
That bearing is very interesting, I'm surprised it's held up so well!
Quote from: steelfish on January 03, 2020, 02:27:09 AM
I also saw "someone" installing a "reelseat plate" on the cork foregrip and use it like that (without taking the fly reelseat out), seems like a pretty lazy job but the rod looked like a Double purpose rod after that or just go "Mcgyver" and use some "zip ties" to attach the spinning reel ;D
for my lazy job, I went with the self-adhesive rubber tape ;-)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4828/31242690967_846b5ea344_b.jpg)
I like the rod well enough to do something a bit better, don't plan to use this as a fly rod again. It's the Fenwick SF70, a good spinning rod but only so-so as a fly rod..
Quote from: mo65 on February 18, 2020, 03:50:59 PM
Most interesting is the ball bearing, it has a nylon outer race and a soft clear plastic ball retainer. The inner race is steel...as are the balls. This reel was well worn, and that bearing is undamaged and very smooth, so I'm not going to laugh at it just yet.
I've seen a similar type of bearing (but the inner race is nylon too) used on some of the later model Shakespeare 2062's with the newer style handles. The ones I've had with the older style handles had all metal bearings. I just happen to have one apart at the moment so here are a couple of pictures:
I'm going to keep an eye out for an older metal bodied spinner like one of these to put on a light duty rig for catching bait now, you guys are terrible. ;D
If the name alone determined how tough a reel was, this one would be a world champion, what a cool moniker. On the outside this one looks like just another average 70s Japanese reel, but it has some interesting things going on under the hood. Popping off the non-handle side inspection plate doesn't reveal much...makes me wonder why it's even on there. Maybe for lubing the pinion and spool shaft? That is about all you see from this end.
Moving along to the other side, the second pic shows the interesting parts. Check out how that pinion rides on a machined pin rather than simply slipping into a port on the body. The pinion bearing is a big beefy item like you'd find in an early Dam Quick reel. The AR dog has to be the largest I've ever seen in a spinning reel. The drive gear is the common 70s Japanese pot metal, but it does have a stainless steel shaft.
The third photo is all the parts after cleaning. No plastic here...only the drag knob and the handle knob...just the way I like it. Been a while since I saw felt drags, and they cleaned up so well I decided to leave them alone. If I were going to fish the reel I'd re-oil them.
The last shot is the reel all buttoned up. Every function operates like it should. The handle turns smoothly. The bail snaps easily and fast. This reel has the kind of tight tolerances you'd normally see in more respected reels...I'll have to rate this B-grader near the top of B mountain. It looks like another one of Omori's offerings, and like most of those, is a real bargain. 8)
Wow, a lot of stuff going on with that Fury Diamond, That AR looks as tough as any. BB, well supported pinion, lots of metal. Glad you posted on this, Mo.
Frank
X2. Could only see maybe 1 part for the ossilation system, though. It looks so well made, I'd like to know how that sys. works/looks.
Quote from: Gfish on April 25, 2020, 07:02:06 AM
X2. Could only see maybe 1 part for the ossilation system, though. It looks so well made, I'd like to know how that sys. works/looks.
Let me see if I can explain the oscillation system G. It's actually pretty basic, but all the components are metal and fitment tolerances are great. In the photo below you'll see the oscillation arm screw circled in blue. The corresponding blue arrow shows where the screw and arm attach. That screw is
left hand thread. The opposite end of the arm connects to the oscillation block at the red arrow by the c-clip circled in red. The small screw circled in green attaches the block to the spool shaft where the green arrow indicates. 8)
Cool, thanks. The o. sys. reminds me of a Zebco Cardinal et. al. worm gear type. So does the AR pawl. I'll bet the weight on this great lookin B spinner is on the heavy side( almost always a good thing for me).
Quote from: Gfish on April 25, 2020, 05:24:15 PM
Cool, thanks. The o. sys. reminds me of a Zebco Cardinal et. al. worm gear type. So does the AR pawl. I'll bet the weight on this great lookin B spinner is on the heavy side( almost always a good thing for me).
You're welcome buddy...and yes...she is a heavy one.
cool oldie
don't see a spring washer for the drag
is there a coil spring in the spool or drag knob?
Quote from: philaroman on April 26, 2020, 01:28:08 AM
cool oldie
don't see a spring washer for the drag
is there a coil spring in the spool or drag knob?
I'm not sure, but it looks like there may be a spring inside the knob.
I have some old Japanese knobs (Daiwa?) perma-sealed w/ spring inside
prob. one of those (unless those are actual screw holes)
either way, that's pretty fancy
years(decades?) before Shimano & Daiwa upgraded to spring-loaded knobs
Haven't seen one of these in this thread so I'll add it.
Compac Atlas
A Japanese made worm gear driven ultralight that is built pretty well for its time period.
This one needs a new bail wire and arm, it is in bad shape. I could also convert it to a manual pickup.
Here are some pictures...
More pictures...
And still more pictures (I can only do 4 at a time)
Pictures...
;D
;D
:)
Still going...
:o
Getting there...
....
Done!
that's NICE!!! wonder if it's the oldest Ohmori OEM
I'm pretty sure Compac was its own entity and was an OEM for a lot of other companies. I know for sure they made stuff for Shakespeare and a lot of import/rebadge companies in the USA.
Great job !! Looks like a sweet little reel !
It's not too bad. The thrust pinion bearing isn't as nice as a pinion ball bearing and the drag setup isn't too good. I like the anti-reverse switch even though I'm not usually real big on plastic parts. It is a pretty solid reel but not one I'd use. It feels more like the old Italian worm drives and I'm not a huge fan of those either (unpopular opinion I'm sure). This one is built well, just doesn't feel as nice as a reel like a Shakespeare 2052 (I use one of those regularly).
That's a sweetie Kevin! That bearing looks a little odd, but some guys would consider it an "A" because of the worm drive gearing. You need a photo hosting site to post all your pics in one post, or, use the Gallery here. I find Flickr to be about the easiest to use that I've come across so far. 8)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152132672@N02/
You did an excellent job cleaning up that ol' 1955ish Atlas, Kevin! A few of the older Italian made reels used a similar ball & race retaining method. I just opened up a Zangi made Ted Williams 350 from the mid '60's that had the same setup but only has three balls. They work OK but sure not as smooth as encased bearings. ;)
Compac was one of the earlier Japanese reel makers, separate from Olympic. I've never found any evidence they were part of the Olympic conglomerate, just unsubstantiated hearsay. Their hay day was the mid '50s through the mid '70s. They were sold/distributed by Commerce-Pacific, Inc. in LA, CA & Canada Limited, Ontario.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on May 05, 2020, 05:38:13 PM
You did an excellent job cleaning up that ol' 1955ish Atlas, Kevin! A few of the older Italian made reels used a similar ball & race retaining method. I just opened up a Zangi made Ted Williams 350 from the mid '60's that had the same setup but only has three balls. They work OK but sure not as smooth as encased bearings. ;)
It's really more of a thrust bearing in design than a ball bearing and I think that is why it doesn't feel the same. It doesn't do much with the side load, the bushing in reel body takes care of that part.
It is a pretty well made reel, I just don't like the feel of it. It reminds me of a lot of the old Italian reels in more ways than just the bearing! I'm not real big on them either ;D
Quote from: mo65 on May 05, 2020, 04:09:10 PM
That's a sweetie Kevin! That bearing looks a little odd, but some guys would consider it an "A" because of the worm drive gearing. You need a photo hosting site to post all your pics in one post, or, use the Gallery here. I find Flickr to be about the easiest to use that I've come across so far. 8)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152132672@N02/
if you used it, you would probably stick it in the B category :D
Sometimes reels can be well crafted with good materials and still not perform well. I'd take an old Shakespeare 2052 over this one hands down. I think it is a good example of an early, good quality Japanese reel though! Not junk, but not my cup of tea either.
that's how I feel about my Columbian
Quote from: philaroman on May 05, 2020, 06:27:29 PM
that's how I feel about my Columbian
I have the larger Columbian version too ;D
Definitely one in the same!
I have several Compacs, but put this one into quarantine in the garage a couple weeks ago. ::)
Quote from: festus on May 05, 2020, 09:48:57 PM
I have several Compacs, but put this one into quarantine in the garage a couple weeks ago. ::)
:D
Idunno... maybe that's the golden reel that gives you immunity :o
I have a #74 Cutlass: pale-blue, fancier rotor, no bottom shaft support
otherwise, your #75 Corona looks the same (can't compare size)
is there anything extra goofy about that piston bail spring assembly?
Quote from: philaroman on May 06, 2020, 10:27:28 AM
BTW, is there anything extra goofy about that piston bail spring assembly?
Yeah...that kinda caught my eye too.
Like it or no, that Atlas is sure interesting.
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on May 07, 2020, 02:33:00 PM
Like it or no, that Atlas is sure interesting.
Frank
I agree. I like the reel, just not one I would use regularly.
Mind if join in? 8)
Picked this one up on the way home from work yesterday about a block away from Grandma's house. 22$ and it came on a fairly nice 5' fiberglass Harnell ultralight rod. It's a Compac SL110 light spinning reel. Felt a little dry and gummy but not too bad, so of course I tore it down, cleaned it up, and lubed it up with ReelX and Superlube.
(https://i.ibb.co/y6yyyvj/IMG-20200513-174855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/StnnnYC)
(https://i.ibb.co/n8w20Gw/IMG-20200513-174900.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M5gThvg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3Sfvhz1/IMG-20200513-175241.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JrxqkQn)
(https://i.ibb.co/wMQkTDk/IMG-20200513-175242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WgzhQSh)
(https://i.ibb.co/k0dpJhQ/IMG-20200513-175248.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ftcb9C4)
(https://i.ibb.co/WnxGbKp/IMG-20200513-175251.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cJgkGTX)
(https://i.ibb.co/dbLY7R6/IMG-20200513-175301.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k39CMt0)
(https://i.ibb.co/NYDx9xy/IMG-20200513-175830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dKCBPB5)
(https://i.ibb.co/GQqJTXP/IMG-20200513-183042.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjSPygX)
(https://i.ibb.co/h1dGCLC/IMG-20200513-183122.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bRv47Q7)
(https://i.ibb.co/zNYzqd2/IMG-20200513-183339.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KmkJTns)
(https://i.ibb.co/jLCRLPq/IMG-20200513-183342.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2jzNj1R)
(https://i.ibb.co/jgmqMtZ/IMG-20200513-183500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4PzCTkg)
(https://i.ibb.co/TRdQKDj/IMG-20200513-183504.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5vwQYXp)
The bearing is only sheilded on the top side, open on the bottom.
(https://i.ibb.co/BLQgdLd/IMG-20200513-183631.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G78VB7B)
(https://i.ibb.co/7kJW88x/IMG-20200513-183637.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNCq11r)
Bearing looks good as new!
(https://i.ibb.co/2SSC3ry/IMG-20200513-184447.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YXX1BS3)
(https://i.ibb.co/RjFW3wn/IMG-20200513-185028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sWfrKYS)
(https://i.ibb.co/j3sCNXH/IMG-20200513-185349.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3SQx3Zk)
(https://i.ibb.co/mGST1B3/IMG-20200513-190852.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XbC8zq)
(https://i.ibb.co/9g4ny9y/IMG-20200513-193008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vqd1LxL)
(https://i.ibb.co/tZC9g4Q/IMG-20200513-193638.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHT05VG)
(https://i.ibb.co/2ckmjbW/IMG-20200513-195723.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqSkhd5)
Two leather drag washers, and a nylon that sits on top of the upper one. They were nice and pliable but not greasy or nasty at all. Nice felt material on the edge of the spool to keep debris out of the housing.
(https://i.ibb.co/HdsQNL6/IMG-20200513-195807.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3zqHf52)
Cleaned up pretty nice! Not a bad first vintage spinning reel, nice and simple cleanup, maybe an hour and a half start to finish.
(https://i.ibb.co/HqwK1Rq/IMG-20200513-200719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/89vmTG9)
(https://i.ibb.co/fx08kZd/IMG-20200513-200724.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jr4Vyqk)
All in all a cool little reel with a very practical ~4.8:1 return ratio. Should make for a nice little setup for catching panfish at the marina ;D
Nice ! thanks for the look !
Nice clean up Anthony! She looks like a solid ol' reel...enjoy! 8)
nice job on the reel
more about the Harnell, pls.
Great job Anthony!
I really like the color on that one!
Nice stout little reel. Thanks for showing.
Greg
Those are nice reels
Nice job rejuvenating that guy! He cleaned up really well. 8) It'll catch a lot of fish!
Lingwendil, Nice job on your find. I have that SL100's 1st cousin! 1960's japanese spinner branded "MEDALLION IV" my Dad gave me for my 12th or 13th birthday, 1965 or '66. Pretty much the same reel with a more rectangular body, similar guts. That reel served me well and caught a lot of fish with minimal maintenance. IMO, some of those "B" grade reels were (are) true workhorses, all metal and simple design. I somehow lost the drag knob moving around the country and shelved this reel, but if anyone has a knob for it, I would love to clean and service it and get it fishing again. Sentimental value and all...
Tight lines,
Kal
Here's another neat reel- a Sportfisher 2100, made for the K-Mart corporation! I bid on this at the last second and scored it for $9.99 shipped 8)
Turns nice and smooth if a little gummy, drag is sticky.
(https://i.ibb.co/g68FzZX/IMG-20200521-175237.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rvhf42L)
(https://i.ibb.co/d2bJmFL/IMG-20200521-175243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YkDT0my)
The only manufacturers info I can find on this reel is on this label. Made in Korea, anybody know by whom?
(https://i.ibb.co/4P6kzRS/IMG-20200521-175303.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hDP0bFd)
(https://i.ibb.co/hRsGdPk/IMG-20200521-175422.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWVFC7d)
(https://i.ibb.co/tYFSyJf/IMG-20200521-175519.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yfw6vL9)
(https://i.ibb.co/HT3m1Vq/IMG-20200521-175531.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvtszfM)
No bearings at all, no bushings either.
(https://i.ibb.co/HhZLgfF/IMG-20200521-175627.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NTRgYdV)
Handle gear shaft seems to be chrome plated for wear resistance, at least.
(https://i.ibb.co/25MCbSs/IMG-20200521-180311.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vDdTthQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/3c61Q1k/IMG-20200521-182021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zx4d7dN)
(https://i.ibb.co/GR2RyMg/IMG-20200521-182056.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kX8XjDY)
(https://i.ibb.co/fGjtbRh/IMG-20200521-182316.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xkcp9Bh)
Drag washers feel like rubber/cork mixture, like old valve cover gaskets.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yd1WrjS/IMG-20200521-182400.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2MC6bKr)
Nice loud drag click spring.
(https://i.ibb.co/Vmk4BD1/IMG-20200521-182619.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHXY3Qf)
Cleaned up pretty nice! Oiled the drags and now it's nice and smooth.
(https://i.ibb.co/wYsxR1C/IMG-20200521-183158.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BwNStRj)
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjdmLh/IMG-20200521-183206.jpg) (https://ibb.co/85CGJWP)
Neat little reel, going to put it on a 7' medium rated Ugly Stik GX2 and use it as a pier rig with the kids. It's got a ~3.25:1 retrieve so no super far casts on the plans, as that's too slow for the kids to keep out of the mud and snags. I think I'll throw some 12# Big Game mono on it.
Looks like it cleaned up nicely! It's always a plus to see a metal crosswind block on those Asian made reels. :)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on May 22, 2020, 02:27:16 AM
Looks like it cleaned up nicely! It's always a plus to see a metal crosswind block on those Asian made reels. :)
Agreed...on the clean up
and the crosswind block. 8)
Nice work Anthony! You're killing it brother! 8) 8)
Well, that Sportfisher reel sure is a great little reel to fish! Installed it on a 7' medium Ugly Stik GX2, spooled it with 12# moss green big game mono, and both yesterday and today took it to our usual spot next to a local municipal boat launch. My son (he'll be four in a couple weeks) actually asked to use the setup both trips, so he was in charge. With the low gear ratio it actually worked perfectly for him. He was able to reel in the line each time without any help yesterday and today, and also caught his personal best fish- an 11.5" striped bass that fought surprisingly hard for its size, couldn't weigh it but it was around a pound or just under.
Also caught a similar sized fish on my Pflueger Summit this trip, man, watching that handle spin as the fish makes a run is a rush that I never knew I wanted! Direct drive sure is a neat way to fish and will definitely be something I do often now.
Way to go guys...great fishin'! 8)
Good job !!
Perfect. That's what it's all about.
-steve
Well done! Getting kids started young is where it's at! 8)
Crawling out from under a rock
Hey guys! A while back I got a few nice reels in a care package from Xjchad (thanks again!) when we worked out a trade on that old Harnell rod. One of them is a Garcia GK10. I pulled it apart and cleaned it up a while back and just got around to getting the pictures up. It was very similar to that sportfisher and compac internally, with some differences.
Looks to be in typical "on a shelf in a garage for a loooong time" condition. Rotates smoothly.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HzdqFm/IMG-20200612-175521.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5htJ5NX)
(https://i.ibb.co/h7k92v3/IMG-20200612-175526.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ngTmQSx)
Made in Taiwan-
(https://i.ibb.co/prQqkYS/IMG-20200612-175531.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7cSZFz)
(https://i.ibb.co/znq1ZW5/IMG-20200612-175539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h73kVxM)
At least it's all metal inside :)
(https://i.ibb.co/WkD5fFL/IMG-20200612-175655.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rxb0HMV)
(https://i.ibb.co/D9Zkpx3/IMG-20200612-175701.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zXzbJyK)
(https://i.ibb.co/brJxdzF/IMG-20200612-175727.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9wYyFD)
(https://i.ibb.co/mt5b0Sb/IMG-20200612-175728.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S0w5cJ5)
(https://i.ibb.co/JxcM2Md/IMG-20200612-175742.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHfkKkJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/3mxq6CV/IMG-20200612-175959.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JjY46s8)
(https://i.ibb.co/85n3vDd/IMG-20200612-180006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k8Vnbg9)
(https://i.ibb.co/B4VmT4p/IMG-20200612-181035.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DGDNwGJ)
Simple drag with a single cork/rubber washer.
(https://i.ibb.co/xCkgyv2/IMG-20200612-184923.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qySgzGD)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpdY50K/IMG-20200612-190513.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5fNn4m)
(https://i.ibb.co/r0Rmv4F/IMG-20200612-191141.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCds7Zt)
(https://i.ibb.co/jy7qfQD/IMG-20200612-191149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/McqKSt7)
Cleaned up very nice and it so happened that I had a worn but usable Garcia Conolon 2121 ultralight rod that was a perfect match for it. I spooled it with some 6# Maxima Ultragreen and we've been using it to catch tiny stripers at our spot with some #14 hooks :)
Nice clean-up ! Glad you are using it....they were all made to fish .
Nice looking GK 10. Another candidate for the landfill denied entry.
Frank
Nice cleanup & transformation! That should provide you with some good action. 8)
Nice job on that Garcia! 8)
Thank you for posting the breakdown and the pictures. I have a Diamond Fury that is in rough shape. Was wondering how to remove the Pinion gear and bearings? Does it just tap out and through towards the front after removing the bearing cover? Didn't want to force it.
Quote from: dougrm3 on July 29, 2020, 05:29:53 PM
Thank you for posting the breakdown and the pictures. I have a Diamond Fury that is in rough shape. Was wondering how to remove the Pinion gear and bearings? Does it just tap out and through towards the front after removing the bearing cover? Didn't want to force it.
Yes. You may have to coax it a little if the grease has hardened. You can pry between the brass gear and partition in the body. The bearing may need a little coaxing, too, but it will come off the pinion. Soak it in some solvent like lacquer thinner or acetone if the bearing is stuck.
Quote from: dougrm3 on July 29, 2020, 05:29:53 PM
I have a Diamond Fury that is in rough shape. Was wondering how to remove the Pinion gear and bearings.
I opened up a Diamond Fury on this thread...a few pages back...maybe the photos might help you as you work on yours. Tommy is correct...soaking in a little solvent or WD-40 should loosen her right up. 8)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/C60A-10005-Abu-Garcia-Maintenance-Kit-with-Silicote-Reel-Oil-with-Syncolon-PTFE/402032881027?hash=item5d9b06ed83:g:8DUAAOSwhbZeGPq6
Thank you for your reply. I will give it a shot with w-d. Wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing a retainer.
I decided to give my DAM Quick Microlite a little rest from duty, and try fishing this ol' Fury Diamond 250. Many of these reels from the 70s-80s were labeled "junk" at that time...hilarious...as comparing them to "quality" modern reels reveals a shocking truth. Yesterday's junk wasn't so bad after all! 8)
Fun topic. I don't have a true defn, but what separates A,B,C grades in my mind would be performance and durability. The mark of a lower quality reel can be heard and felt after a reel has been put through -or beyond- its paces over time. But the more I learn the more I've come to respect and enjoy manufacturers attempts at making reels that perform and, at the same time, are affordable. The lack of bearings, lack of bushings, appropriate metals for durability, and overall gear package design all factor in. Good design and adequate bearings/bushings can help keep lower quality metals from wear. And staying within a given design's limits is important. Some types of fish and fishing basically require high quality tackle.
When sanity returns here I'll join in and share some favorite -and newly acquired- "B's" (You guys are a bad influence!) 😄
OK... Sanity has returned! Finally able to sit down at my (makeshift) bench, and meditate on the mysterious inner workings of some fishing reels.
First "B-grade" spinning reel:
Compac SL series: 110 (light ~6lb), 111 (med ~10lb):
These SL-series reels could just qualify as "B-grade" simply by being Japanese reels from the 1970's. Back then, as I remember it, "Made in Japan" was not a compliment. That has changed over time of course and it seemed that lower end reels then started coming from Korea (80's), then from China (90's).
I bought these Compac's following my curiosity for gear train designs, and they smacked of an Omori design —or an Omori copy? They sport the compact, "efficient", helical (spiral), hypoid (off-center) gear train that seems to have swept the industry since the 70's. Piquing my interest has been some chatter that these SL series reels are of better quality than other Compac reels. Could this line of inexpensive reels be worth pursuing? Now, I am an angler, more than collector, so I'm mostly interested in reels that can perform on the water.
So, let's dig in and see what we've actually got here. Or what I can get out of them.
The 110 was found to be well used. The 111 was nearly new, in the box, with papers. It's helpful to have one in such EC in assessing the quality of a reel design.
The first thing is to assess how much a reel has been used, and how well it might have been taken care of. This is especially important with lower quality reels as they are more apt to gather wear. Turning the handle rarely offers much about the condition of the internals, beyond their containing old dry grease. Few old reels I pick up have been serviced, let alone treated to a complete job.
Bails are apt to have trouble and I'd bet more spinning reels are discarded due to bail issues than any other. Often they are easy to get back into working order. Broken bail springs can be bought, or close-enough's modified. Bail wires may need to be bent back to shape. This SL110's bail was found to be sitting askew, the culprit being a worn nylon bail bumper. In fact, it may have been a sloppy replacement, owing to the apparent dried epoxy around it. I'll have to drill it out and replace it with a piece of weedcutter line, or other such material. This in itself suggests the reel has been well used.
Opened up, the reel showed dry, gummy, likely factory, grease. And here is what I was interested in: How this reel was put together and the quality of materials used. Both these SL's were virtually the same in terms of design and materials, both being destined for L and M freshwater use, respectively. They sport a helical hypoid gear train. Shaft oscillation was accomplished via a grooved cast-metal oscillation block against a raised post or button on the back-side of the also cast-metal main gear. Metal quality appeared poor, possibly a high zinc content alloy?
These SL's do not have a pre-pinion AR that is common now, instead relying on a ratchet —a set of large gear teeth— on the back-side of that cast-metal main gear. The AR being reliant on the good nature -metal quality- of the main gear. Such an AR is likely fine for a light power reel like the 110, and for most requirements the 111 was targeted to. Pushing the 111 above 12lb line, very often, perhaps might cause problems? At least when using the reel's drag. I'm a back-reeler so AR durability will never be an issue for me. The AR is there simply to keep tension on the line/lure when not being fished.
The main shaft is chromed, but apparently over a soft enough metal (likely brass) that I found the shaft on the 110 bent slightly where the screw that holds the oscillation block is drilled. I think I can see how that happened. The block is screwed into the shaft, and the main gear, affixed to the crank handle, puts that cranking power down onto the shaft via the oscillation block right where the shaft is weakest -where the hole was drilled through. Whoops! Design, or materials, change needed there. I popped the shaft back straight with a small hammer and a piece of leather.
The handle shaft of the main gear is supported by a sleeve bearing (brass?). The main shaft is supported by the rotor ball-bearing, the pinion shaft, the oscillation block, and at the distal end via a bearing block of cast metal, integral with the reel body. This is all well and good but, again, the hole in the shaft compromises the shaft.
The single ball-bearing, beneath the rotor, was a poor fit between the ball bearing itself and the reel body housing, the bearing being a bit loose in the housing, creating some play in the reel's shaft, rotor, and spool. A replacement bearing would be best, but I made a quick fix by fashioning a shim from the finger of a Nitrile glove. It took up the space, noticeably tightening up that play. I had to do this in both reels.
I burnished the important metal-to-metal contact areas including reaming the inner bearing surfaces with 0000 steel wool in a cordless drill, as is recommended by Fred (foakes). Lubing was done with Super Lube grease and oil. Final step is to use the reels as fidget spinners, spinning them to distribute lubes and "set" or "mesh (?) the gears. For some reason this seems to help smooth things out. The more worn 110 is the noisier of the two, with a bit of gear-buzzing going on. New ball-bearings, and creative shimming in the right places might help both reels. Any and all advice is welcome!
In the end, or in their native form, these SL series Compac's are not terribly impressive. Sadly, they feel... cheap. Both suffer from excessive play in the components, resulting in loose somewhat noisy (clunky sounding) reels. At this stage in the game, I'll likely be looking further for fishing companions.
The last image shows the Omori Shaky Sigma (035) and the Compac SL (110). Two reels of essentially the same (hypoid) design but two very different animals on the inside.
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 20, 2021, 02:33:26 AM
The last image shows the Omori Shaky Sigma (035) and the Compac SL (110). Two reels of essentially the same design but two very different animals on the inside.
not reely same design... Sigma is much more modern
look up green Shakes 2200-II, AND gold Compac Atlas III, AND gold Diamond Micro, AND a Pflueger (grey? model?)
(all same Omori in different colors, not sure how the model-size increments work for each re-brand)
above L/UL would be closer to SL 110 in design/age, but better-made
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30254.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22330.0
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32404.0
They do look cheaply made, but functional. If you don't wanna fish 'em, you could give 'em to a kid.
Thanks philaroman. The second post talks about shimming issues, which could help tighten things up in this reel too. Not entirely confident but worth playing with.
Agree that the Sigma's are a newer design, at least in having gone to an oscillation arm and pin, and pinion AR. My 80's Daiwa's use those too. All are hypoid gear trains though, rather than in-line bevel or worm gears. It seems hypoid has been the gear train of most modern (or at least Asia produced) reels since the 70's. I've been curious about the early hypoids. And the oscillation block reels seem to have a following. I thought I'd try some and started with these Compac SL's, in part bc they have a pretty compact gear package, are nice looking, and are inexpensive. Would be nice to be able to tighten and quiet them up. At this point, I'd put these SL's in the low "B" range. The Sigma's a low "A" range.
Gfish, they are functional. They spin like tops -I suppose that is what "frictionless" meant on the box- but are loose feeling with too much noise. Could be an interesting project to trick them out. In their present form, I'm not so sure most kids nowadays would be impressed. Even the cheapest reels now are at very least smooth and quiet.
Ok. Not a lot(enough?)of tricking-out that goes on with spinners relative to conventionals and baitcasters. Should be fun!
Noise is the Bearing . Looseness is the Cheap arse Pewter Gear and the only way to get the slack out is to replace it or fill the teeth with some peaunut butter . If the Pinion gear were tapered you could change the Depth with shims to take some slack out but with a plain straight gear no cigar .
Good work getting to where you are with those ;D
Thank you, Paul, for a nice write-up on those Compaqs. If I could see write-ups like those on a bunch more of the spinning reels talked about on this site, I'd be putting in a lot more PC (personal computer) time (and enjoying every minute of it).
Frank
Shakes Sigmas are good reels —
In my personal opinion — they are a strong B+ reel.
I have found that the difference between a "B" grade spinning reel and a "A" grade is a couple of basic things —
The gearing on an "A" grade reel is typically constructed of tough and superior materials such as steel, bronze, brass — which are well supported at any possible stress point with a ball-bearing or a bushing-bearing, or a combination of the two. This enables a reel to fish far above its intended target range — with no permanent damage to the internals. When a "B" grade reel is quickly maxed out — gear and internal damage often occur — which are not repairable without major expense and finding obsolete parts — which is generally not worth the effort. Oftentimes, these designs include the much more efficient steel worm and bronze main gear setups.
Second is a metal casing with tight tolerances, good springs, good screws, threaded attachment points, machined components, and a minimum of plastics — particularly on wear parts.
"A" reels will last for a couple of generations of steady fishing under all conditions, if serviced on a sensible schedule.
"B" reels will also fish very well, if serviced properly and regularly — until that oversized fish we all hope to catch someday — takes the bait. Then the reel is ruined and sometimes the fish is also lost.
Best,
Fred
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear driven. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an oilite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
I think the non-ball bearings are good if not equal especially if they are longer to help with "wobble" tolerance (I don't know the engineering terms). Sometimes it is just better to keep it simple -- adding ball bearings can sometimes become another point of failure, e.g. Penn 716Z with the single ball bearing, the one part I've replaced.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear drivemyn. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an onlite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider sider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
Got to agree, Tommy —
Anyone who works on reels for a long time — and also uses them — will tell us the same thing.
While I claim to fish all types of spinning reels — and also have them readily available — I cannot remember the last time I fished anything besides a DAM Quick, Cardinal, or Penn reel.
I might have fished a Gold Daiwa Mini-Mite just for fun at Pryor Lake, in the Sierras at 8400' a couple of years ago — however I had a Cardinal 3 in my day-pack, as a back-up...😄😄😄
Tupperware, plastic, and graphite reels are for folks who don't care if their reels only last a few years.
The same goes for soft alloy or pot metal gears. Same goes for most Asian off brands — and even most of the major brands.
The marketing departments of most Asian reel manufacturers set their advertising and their pricing — by now many bearings their reels have. What they are not saying — is that the 10 to 13 bearings are needed — because this is the only structural and functional support the drive train gets with a plastic or cheap shiny reel.
While I have caught and landed some nice fish on quality reels — I have yet to catch the fish of a lifetime (mostly because my lifetime is not over yet!)
So, while I cannot prepare for everything when fishing — I can certainly use tackle that will generally stand the test of time and capability when landing large fish — routinely, with no drama or excuses.
And these old quality reels will not break the bank — they are some of the best values found anywhere in the angling world.
IMO...
Best, Fred
Gfish, True, esp with a reel as simple as these SL's. It's more about plugging holes in the design with the materials given. And it is fun, provided the end result is worth the time and effort. There's always value in learning by DIY regardless.
Henry, I think you are spot on. The best attempts at making this reel... not make me cringe while fishing with it, are: a new quality bearing (and one that fits!); heavier grease (I'm using peanut butter now, according to NLGI. Maybe vegetable shortening might be better? ;D; And some shimming.
Not confident these particular reels are worth the time, but I'm likely to play around a bit further just to see if I can patch those holes left by Compac, and learn a few things along the way. I did go back in and pack the bearing with NLGI-2 grease. Prior I'd used just Super Lube oil, a pretty viscous oil. From my conventional reel experience, my normal approach is to oil bearings. But this is less critical for spinning reels and with any wear, grease is apt to help. The grease packing did help with the "rotor hiss" in my Compac's, but there is another larger noise issue I'll be trying to address: The main shaft has fore and aft play that, with the spool on one end, makes an annoying clicking sound, that then resonates within the rotor. That's a deal-breaker at present.
Thanks for the kind words, Frank! It is nice to be able to share our passions. Also, I see this (and some other) sites as reference archives. This site is a particularly good one. With the archival nature of such sites in mind, I often revisit my posts to edit for accuracy, clarity, and because I simply find writing an enjoyable challenge. Sometimes I've edited things years later!
Fred, I agree. I've been tossing this A, B, ... rating system idea around, and simply haven't experienced enough reels to be terribly accurate there. After slipping the Sigma's into the A category, I started thinking, "Then there must be a AA and even a AAA!" Your reasoning is sound. I agree the Sigma's would be a high B. Thanks for the clarity.
Tom, I hear you. And I know your well earned preferences. Although I was unaware of your weakness for the Mitchell 304 :). Such things (the Luxor in my case) have had me wondering about gear packages: Straight or helical bevel vs hypoid vs the venerable worm gear. I've bought a number of each now and will be delving into them as time allows. As usual, I just want to know about stuff.
dlrider, yes it seems that ball bearings can be a weak spot, esp the cheaper ones. Case in point: I took down the NOS Sigma 035 in the above photo, to compare with the Compac. The Sigma is much tighter feeling but also has some "rotor hiss". I found the bearing inner ring was so loose the entire train could move! Put back together, the train feels pretty tight, but that much play in the bearing cannot be good. Replacing that bearing for a better quality one would take this reel up a notch in the rating game. (But not into the A range). The Compac reels do have one rather impressive (long) sleeve support bearing in the handle post. Now if they'd only continued that thinking in the rest of the reel.
Thanks for the thoughtful conversation folks.
Good comments, Paul —
Well reasoned and explained — Thank You for your clarity.
One easy way for me to understand the difference between a worm-drive system and a more typical and less expensive system — is to look at master carpenters and framers.
We don't see any of them with a Black and Decker Skill Saw — or a Sears Skill saw. The pros all have worm-drive Skil Saws.
The difference in power, strength, performance, and longevity — is not even a question.
They can be dropped from a rafter, used in the rain, are simple and mechanically accurate to set depth of cut and angles — and will last 10 times as long as a B & D. For guys whose skill and reputation hangs on their accuracy, skill, and ability to frame a house including plates and rafters in a day or two — these old worm-drive Skill 77's are all they will use. They weigh twice as much as a plastic bodied saw — and the materials used are nearly bullet-proof.
I have only had two in my life — first was about 40 years ago — and I would still have it if it wasn't stolen from a job-site in the middle of the day — along with an air compressor. My second one I still have — it has a lot of miles on it — and all it has ever needed was some grease into the port every couple of years. The cord is finally wearing out — easy to replace. It is 25 years old.
A fishing reel is just a tool — and the better the tool — the cheaper the overall cost becomes, over the years.
Best, Fred
For academic purposes I went back to work on the SL 111 in an attempt to quiet the noise this cheap reel produces. Nice, once again, that I have an essentially new reel to start with, which tells me something about the native components of this reel model.
There are a variety of noises that reels may produce. The most common culprits seem to be: the ball bearings, esp the one supporting the rotor; the gears (how well they mesh); the other support bearings; and the main shaft movement tolerances. In fact, much unwanted noise seems to boil down to poor tolerances between moving parts.
This nearly new 111 hissed, ground (mildly), rattled a bit when shaken about, and clunked when reeled. Together these were intolerable, at least for someone who has better choices available. But I wondered if I could actually tame such a beast, retaining original parts. In the end, the reel would not be worth an attempt at upgrading parts.
Here's how I attacked each noise:
-The 'hiss', I have always called "rotor hiss" —I guess bc the rotor tends to amplify the sound— is the sound a cheap or worn/corroded bearing makes -either ball bearing or bushing. I dealt with the cheap ball bearing in these reels by packing them with grease, as opposed to oiling with a viscous oil.
-The 'grinding' is gear noise, due to how well, or poorly, the gear teeth mesh. If you press a reel's tail against your ear you can hear any gear set, even those glass smooth ABU worm gear ones. But they should not be heard, very loudly anyway, much further away. There wasn't much I could do with the gear noise in these Compac's. The gears are just too loose. Extra grease was all I could think to do here, hence Wompus Cat's "peanut butter" suggestion.
-The rattling and clunking I spent some time trying to locate. The majority of it turned out to be emanating from the main shaft, and were amplified in the rotor cup. These cheap sounds were intolerable. I decided the best I could do was attempt to hide them! I eventually traced the sounds to the oscillation block. It was clunking back and forth between the pinion and the aft block bushing. So I made a pair of cushions from heat-shrink tubing. They had to be narrow so that their impact on line lay would be as minimal as possible. Hey, I didn't say I was going to fish these reels, just hide the sounds of cheapness and poor tolerances. But... hey, you never know, so I exchanged the shim/washer beneath the rotor for a thicker felt one to pick the spool back up a bit... just in case.
This bit of BS helped but did not get rid of the main 'clunk', that came around at every fore and aft movement of the main shaft. The only thing left was the AR cog and groove, and this turned out to be it. I affixed a heat-shrink shim to that little button/cog and... that hollow 'clunk' went away! How cool is that?! The shim did not stay in place exactly, after opening it back up to see, but it stayed in the groove and continued doing its job. How long? Who knows? Hey, this cheap reel got a cheap fix. I effectively hid the most egregious sounds of cheapness. I would likely need to find a more durable shim but I'll call this effort a success.
What's left are the hiss from a cheap ball bearing (remember its essential new) and the loose gear mesh noise. I dare say it sounds 'fishable' now. I could join a line of casters in the dim light of dawn and not cause wrinkled noses and curled lips from my compatriots. That said, from what I've seen, I could now see dropping these Compac SL-series reels into the "C-grade" category.
A reel that talks to you will tell you how it is feeling and whether or not it needs anything.
Quote from: oc1 on September 22, 2021, 05:07:35 AM
A reel that talks to you will tell you how it is feeling and whether or not it needs anything.
Another Plus of a noisy Reel is that it can Vibrate down the Line and wake up those Sleepy Fish !
😄 Yes, this one has a lot of complaints. And it's just a youngster yet! Euthanasia may just be in order.😄
One guy on sol needed a reel,,,,, :-\ but he is a ungrateful fruit loop,,,,, :D but another member has the same reel he needs parts to fix it ,,,he used to fish with his dad with this one,,,, ;) in the mail it will go,,,,,, ;D
Yes Benni, all those old Daiwa reels are very good right up to the 7000C, I like the way the bail arm closes, cheers Don.
The Daiwa C-series should be solid "B-grade" reels, and they seem to have a following. I've never owned one but am just finishing up my next B-grade spinners to share, and they happen to be the Daiwa D-series reels. OK, this could get confusing. :D These D-series Daiwa's are high in the B-grade list in my mind, and experience; I fished one hard for a number of years. I'll be comparing them to an 80's Black Gold series reel I've also put a lot of miles on -essentially an upgraded D-series that may squeak into the low A-grade category. Curious what others think.
Next up is the Daiwa D-series, a D1300 and D1600. These are quality reels, upper B-grades I'd call them. The 1300 here I bought new sometime around 1980, and it has seen a LOT of use. I fished upwards of 150 days a year then. The reel never failed me and remains tight to this day. It did however suffer one break, it lost the automatic internal bail trip function due to a screw breaking out of the cast aluminum rotor it was anchored into. The bail can be tripped manually, but fishing often requires both functions.
The 1600 I picked up recently, and it appeared to be in fine shape in the photos, showing little external wear. Upon initial inspection it was beyond stiff in action. And the internal bail trip appeared to have failed. "I bet I know what's up with this", I said. Upon tear down I found the trip mechanism simply needed lubrication. Yay! The stiffness was simply due to old grease that had dried to a hard crust, that literally had to be chipped out in places. There were 3 layers of it: factory brown, gray, and a green-blue. At least this reel was opened up a couple times, but instead of being cleaned out, more goop was simply added on top. Eventually the reel was closeted long enough for the grease to solidify, maybe even cross-react? Once cleaned out, burnished and lubed, the internals matched the clean externals.
The only other issue was with the extra spool that came with the reel. It's leaf spring —that clips the spool onto the main shaft in these push-button spools— had broken, rendering the extra spool unusable.
These D-series Daiwa's are similar in internal design to the Sigma 2200's and date from the same time period (1980's). They sport a helical hypoid gear train, a cast main gear (alloy unknown), a steel main shaft, and good supports. They have one permanently-sealed ball bearing under the rotor, and it appears to be of much better quality than the one in the Compac SL's (described above). One thing I've noticed in tearing down old spinning reels is that there are ball-bearings and then there are ball-bearings! They too could be rated. The most impressive ball bearings I pulled from old DAM Quick reels. They are tight and spin forever. These Daiwa bearings —branded Koyo— are also tight and spin quietly. The bearings I took out of the Compac SL's were unbranded and looser, requiring grease packing to tighten them up. I believe I may be describing 'A', 'B', and 'C'-grade bearings? To service these permanently sealed Koyo's I had to puncture and peel off one seal, and turn the exposed side inward when replacing, leaving the still sealed side toward the rotor. I did not feel the need to pack this better quality bearing with grease, using a viscous oil instead.
The main gear on these D-series Daiwa's is supported by nylon bushings (and a bronze ? friction shim) that don't appear to show any wear after years of use. The main shaft appears to be steel and is supported at the front end by the brass pinion, which has a rather long shaft that creates a good long bearing surface. The Compac reels, and most —if not all— other early models with a deep rotor cup, have room for only a short pinion shaft. The Daiwa has a very shallow, actually non-existent, rotor cup which allows for a long pinion shaft. The Sigma 2200's —also skirted— are intermediate in rotor depth/pinion shaft length.
The AR mechanism is pre-pinion; In fact, this one is well forward, inside that elongated rotor base.
These are not silent, nor glass-like, reels in action. They produce a fair amount of whirring, that in part feels like it's the wind generated by the 5:1 ratio and "winged" rotor (being a skirted reel)! I'm not joking; The rotor creates quite a little breeze! But despite the hiss, they are tight feeling reels, with no clicking and clunking going on. And, again, I fished the heck out of this D1300 (with 6 to 10lb lines) and its drive train is still tight and fishable.
For comparison, I also have a Black Gold series Daiwa, a BG15 (same capacity as the D1600) that I purchased new sometime in the 90s and that I've put a LOT of tough miles on. More on this abuse —or stretching the limits— shortly, as it weighs in on reel quality.
The BG's look like fancied up D-series —gold spool and trim, and wood handle knob. But a closer look shows that there are some significant differences directed at performance. It has a slightly different body, better reinforcement of the rotor "wings", possibly even a stronger alloy for the body? The main gear does not appear to be cast, but machined as one can make out machining marks on the gear face. It is not steel as it is not magnetic; Possibly an aluminum alloy of some type? The main shaft is likely stainless (being finer, and brighter than the shaft in the D1600). The main gear is supported by ball-bearings rather than nylon bearings as in the D-series. EDIT: The schematics for the D-series and BG-series show the same gear package numbers. The two look different in my reels, but may not be. The parts numbers for the main shaft are different however.
The reel feels and sounds very much like the D-series reels. With the smaller lighter duty models (the D1000, D1300 and BG10, BG13), one might not ever really tell there is much of a difference between the two series, except perhaps after much saltwater use. The D-series build may just be entirely adequate for lighter line weights.
My BG15, however, I've used most often with 14 to 17lb lines for largemouth bass, often in heavy vegetative cover, employing what I call "torque-reeling" that puts some serious stress on the reel. That is, locking the drag down and cranking those fish out before they can turn and bury. This BG has held up very well, with only two signs of the abuse I've put it -and myself!- through:
-At one point I ended up at my doctor's office with my doc's only ever case of "Bass Elbow", more commonly known as "Golfer's Elbow" or epicondylitis —a strained and inflamed tendon. I'd been reefing too many big bass on spinning gear and managed to do in my right elbow. Doc said, "Leave it alone or you'll end up in surgery". It took a full year to heal. During this time I had to switch to fishing lefty. What a frustrating experience at first, and a strange brain game.
I switched the handles over to the right side on my spinning reels, and here's where a weakness was exposed in my BG15 and presumably some other convertible reels. While torque-reeling a bass from dense milfoil, the handle snapped inside the reel! What had happened was, to make the reel convertible between L and R requires different threading. To accomplish this, the right-side retrieve uses CCW threading, but to add CW threading for lefty use, the handle shaft for the main gear on that side of the reel must be milled down in diameter. And it was too thin to handle torque-reeling on the lefty retrieve side. I still happily use my venerable BG15, but I'm also back to right-handed fishing.
-This giving no quarter "torque-reeling" has shown up in the gear teeth too. There is a short span on the main gear where the teeth have been sheared.
It would be better to go up in reel size for this kind of work. Or to a worm-gear driven reel. However, rumor has it that worm-gear drive-trains may bind (stop!) when challenged this way. I do not know if this is so in practice. Most bass anglers go with conventional reels for this kind of fishing. And I do too. But I still use spinning gear out there on those cover-dense bass waters, too.
Not sure where to rate the old BG's: Top of the heap 'B'? Or does it kick over into the 'A' range? What would you all think?
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 23, 2021, 10:41:40 PM
-This giving no quarter "torque-reeling" has shown up in the gear teeth too. There is a short span on the main gear where the teeth have been sheared.
methinks, that's called winching
something you're distinctly NOT supposed to do w/ smaller spinners,
but I understand the need, for bass in weed
It would be better to go up in reel size for this kind of work.
Absolutely, but specifically, next-size-up GEAR SET
which may mean going up several model-sizes for smaller spinners
seems easier to accomplish w/ lo-pro & small round baitcasters
Or to a worm-gear driven reel. However, rumor has it that worm-gear drive-trains may bind (stop!) when challenged this way. I do not know if this is so in practice.
not all jams taste the same ;D ;D ;D
when you push a worm-drive past its winching capabilities, it jams BY DESIGN "to tell you so"
you ease off, PROMPTLY & fish on... if not so prompt, you might have to jiggle the handle,
or rare worst-case unjammed at the bench, but still -- MAIN is likely fine!!! 8) 8) 8)
w/ modern main-OVER-pinion, you can keep winching past intended capabilities, at the cost of grinding the alloy gear teeth
takes longer, more force to completely jam up, but when you do, you likely have toast & jam -- i.e., MAIN is TOAST!!! :'( :'( :'(
worse, there may be broken teeth involved... rattling around, damaging other parts
;D Fun post, philaroman! Yes, certain types of fishing may just sift out the A,B,C's for us. I realize, perhaps, how lucky I've been using that BG rather than the D for all that winch fishing. That D-series cast main gear might have been toast; Broken teeth rather than slightly sheared.
Maybe I should add a warning for my post! ⚠️"Don't try this at home!"⚠️ Without proper safety equipment: A reel up to the task.
I do love my "B's", and even my "C's" (yes I still have a soft spot for some of those), when used within appropriate limits.
Got a couple more lined up at the bench. The next is of the straight bevel variety, one that was too pretty to pass up, even though it was designed with no selectable AR switch! Blasphemous! to a back-reeler like me. I may have to see what I can do about that. The reel is too pretty not to take to the water.
The old diawa BG were great reels I bought the new ones Bg 2000 and BG 2500 and sold them after 1 1/2 years they started to get bearing noise, I gone back to using the old BG 10 which I have had for 30 years still working excellent.
Kim
Amazing. Sad to hear about the new ones. Daiwa still makes the SS series. They must have market for them. Seems to me they could bring back the old BG series. I'd buy more.
Next up is a Langley designed, Zebco built, and Abercrombie & Fitch sold, spinner. Phew! I think I'll just call it a Langley for brevity. This one sports another type of gear train, a straight bevel-geared reel, meaning the pinion is in-line with the center of the main gear, and the teeth are straight rather than curved in a helical/spiral pattern as is seen in more modern spinners. This gear train dates back to the 1930's, essentially the very beginning of what we'd recognize as a spinning reel. It's not much used anymore, with one notable, and upgraded, exception: the Van Staal saltwater reels that use a helical, or spiral, bevel-gear train. The Van Staal followed in the foot steps of the once-famous Luxor and Crack reels that made their mark in the 50's and 60's. The larger Luxor/Crack reels were popular with surf fishers because of their dependability, and ease of in-the-field maintenance due to their simplicity.
This gear train I have little experience with, beyond a couple somewhat worn Luxors and this Langley, none of which have I had on the water. One notable thing about this straight bevel gear train is that they are somewhat noisy; You can hear the gears buzzing as they go through their paces. There is some rotor noise too as there is no ball bearing, just a large bronze bearing and a similar colored shim, supporting the rotor. All of this is housed in an aluminum body and rotor, which tends to amplify internal sounds. It's not a quiet reel, but is not too bad either. Definitely fishable.
The two gears —main and pinion— are cast metal and likely soft. The pinion is small and affixed to a somewhat elongated aluminum pinion shaft. The gear teeth are small/not deep; It's not meant to be a powerful reel, unlike the large Luxor/Crack models were. It's a small reel, designed for 6lb test. Due to the noise, soft materials, and perhaps the straight bevel gear train, we'll call it a mid B-grade within its line weight rating. (Not sure where the Luxor's/Crack's would rate, as they use phosphor bronze and steel gears and were renowned for their durability; Possibly a high B rating? They were an A in their day.)
Spool oscillation is accomplished via a post or 'button' on the face of the main gear that mates with a slot in an oscillation block, as we saw in the Compaq SL, and was common in many 70's B or C-grades. The block is supported by two wings that mate with a pair of ridges inside the reel's body. The reel looks as though it should be convertible, R or L, although an ad says they could be purchased in R and L hand models. I believe the L's were designated 'B'.
The main shaft is likely steel, and is supported by the somewhat elongated aluminum pinion shaft, the "winged" oscillation block, and by a bronze sleeve bearing at the distal end that protrudes from the rear of the reel body.
The reel's body is aluminum, as Langley specialized in aluminum parts production during WWII. The reel weighs 8oz. according to an advertisement. Oh yes, for those who've ever fumbled with tiny screws when servicing old reels, a thoughtful thing the Langley folks did on many of their reels was to provide self-centering screws. Just drop them in the hole and start threading! That was surely appreciated by reel service folks everywhere.
The bail was askew on this reel, and I found the rubber bumper bail stop damaged, crushed by the bail stop contact piece. I CA glued a thick piece of felt as a quick fix, until I find something better suited. The reel has a coil type spring and the mechanism trips smartly. I also CA'd the rubber band on the external bail trip post seen on the underside of the rotor neck.
I scooped and chipped out the hard dry grease like a dental hygienist, burnished and lubed, using more grease than oil considering the noise I knew I'd be hearing.
I'll likely fish it as it's such a cool looking, even pretty, little reel. However, the gear ratio is on the slow side. It also has a feature —much touted by Langley, etc...— a self-centering bail with no anti-reverse switch. I don't need that kind of help, or unasked for slack. And... as a back-reeler I find no selectable AR switch downright offensive! "Blasphemy!" I shout!! Since I'd like to fish this reel I removed those offending parts (stashing them away), and now must rig up an external AR to keep the rotor in check for when I'm not casting with it. Possibly a classy matching black hair band will work?
You may notice I haven't mentioned the drag in any of the reels I've reviewed here. As a back-reeler... I don't need no stinkin' drag. That will change if/when I review the larger saltwater spinners. I do notice the drag on this Langley does not lock down fully, so I may have to fix that. As it is, with it's small size, light weight, and slow retrieve speed, it may just get most of its use as a cold-water bass fishing reel using 4lb or 6lb lines.
Cool Reel some similarities to the Langley Spin Flo .
Good Job Paul !
Thanks, Henry. Yes, it's actually the same reel as the Langley Spin Deluxe and Zebco 850 (Edit: 830). A&F called it the Monogram 200 Six. It is a cool looking reel I think.
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 27, 2021, 02:27:39 AM
Thanks, Henry. Yes, it's actually the same reel as the Langley Spin Deluxe and Zebco 850. A&F called it the Monogram 200 Six. It is a cool looking reel I think.
Well done, Paul, nice evaluation.
The A&F Monogram 200 Six is actually the same reel as the Langley and Zebco Spin deLuxe 830s. The Zebco Spinlite 850 is an ultralight and the A&F Monogram 150 Three is an ultralight (the same as the Zebco 850).
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 27, 2021, 03:35:32 AM
Well done, Paul, nice evaluation.
The A&F Monogram 200 Six is actually the same reel as the Langley and Zebco Spin deLuxe 830s. The Zebco Spinlite 850 is an ultralight and the A&F Monogram 150 Three is an ultralight (the same as the Zebco 850).
Oh yes, thanks for the correction, Tom. I had 850 on the brain bc I was looking into them. I decided not to bite before I saw how this 200 Six/830 pans out.
OK... last one, then I'll give this thread a rest. I posted this in the Roddy section, thinking I'd delete it here. But since there are comments, I'll leave it.
Roddy 910
I wasn't going to write this one up, but it's got an interesting gear package and it brings up the question as to where B-grade ends and A-grade's begin. The Roddy 910 looks like a typical 60's-70's non-skirted, deep rotor cup, B-grade reel. This one's far from new, obviously having been well used. It came in neglected and I did my best to clean, burnish, and lube appropriately.
In action, it feels smooth. However, it has some B-grade clunking going on. So I checked the most likely places for slop: the handle, rotor, main shaft, and spool. The rotor was tight, with little movement. The main shaft had only a little axial motion, and almost no lateral movement despite the apparently cheap ball bearing. The spool and the handle were where the issues were. There was excessive lateral play in the spool due to a poor fit to the shaft. Play in the handle felt like excessive movement between gear teeth. I could even feel a (minor) skip between teeth. Whether much of this looseness and noise is due to native tolerances or wear I do not know. Would need a new reel to tell.
Tear down was a bit more complicated in this reel. First off, the rotor nut was so tight, on top of a big external-star lock-washer, that I couldn't budge it with the tools I had (I'm working at a makeshift workspace lately) and was stumped. Went rummaging in the garage at the place I've been staying (wife's family) and found a breaker bar with a fixed socket, and it fit! What are the chances?! The nut walked right off. The little "main gear" appeared to be permanently fixed to the handle shaft via a pin driven between the gear and shaft, and I could not remove it. All I could do was flush the handle shaft with solvent (mineral spirits) and then flood it with oil. There is an oiling port too.
The schematic/parts list is poorly put together. It does not show parts in order of installation, nor does it show all the parts! The connector where the handle and main gear shaft connect (via a DAM Quick like pin that must be pounded out) is missing from the schematic. These were the very parts I could not remove. Possibly, these parts are permanently installed?
Internally, the reel is "all metal" and sports a worm-gear drive train. It appears that there was an attempt here at making a durable spinning reel up to the rigors of saltwater fishing. The most expensive part listed in the factory parts list is the pinion shaft. And by quite a bit. It's been cut from a solid chunk of stainless steel. The main shaft is steel. One of the drive gears sits on a robust steel post. I checked parts with a strong magnet; Steel being one of the, if not the only, magnetic metals used in reels.
Also robust is the AR mechanism, and for good reason in a saltwater reel. The AR bar is steel and is further supported by a raised block integral with the reel body, protecting the bar from bending. The AR ratchet appears to be steel as well.
There is a single large ball bearing set under the rotor. It's a Nachi 629, a common and cheap bearing today. I'd read that at least one of these 910's was found to contain a German bearing. It seems most likely to me that the German bearing was a replacement, the Nachi original. I packed this rather loose Nachi with Yamalube.
The gear package is an interesting, if complicated, design. It's a combination of worm-gear and spur gears. The rotor is worm-gear driven, but unlike most worm gear drive trains, the input drive mechanism is a set of three gears: a surprisingly small "main gear" (attached to the handle), a larger "middle gear" -the one that meshes with the worm gear. This "middle gear" is proportionally small in diameter against the worm (compared with a DAM drive) so one would assume the gear ratio would be very low. But this drive mechanism involves three gears (!) that apparently multiply output? The realized gear ratio comes in at 3.5:1.
Again, the pinion is steel, but all the gears (4 of them) are aluminum. I can only assume the aluminum is to counter the weight, and cost, of all that steel. The middle gear has a steel hub, however, that acts as a bearing mounted against the stout steel post it rides on. The small "drive gear" does double duty, also driving the oscillation mechanism via an aluminum spur gear. The oscillation block itself is of cast metal, the oscillation cog is bronze. There is also a bronze bar that secures the oscillation block on the side opposite the bronze cog creating what appears to be a pretty solid arrangement.
In all there are 5 gears in this reel. My past experience with later Mitchell 300's has made me wary of reels with too many gears; Too many moving parts to wear, especially if they are of poor material quality. The steel parts may be the foundation of this Roddy 910, but all the aluminum gears have me flashing back to the (albeit later model) Mitchell 300's I'd toasted, far too quickly. Perhaps this accounts for the play I feel in this Roddy? In this case, there are two gear meshes, instead of one, between the handle and the rotor.
The body scrubbed up well with dish soap and a toothbrush. I suppose I can thank the "corrosion proof anodized finish" touted on a sticker on the rotor that a number of the Japanese reels sported. (I scraped the remnants of the worn sticker off and cleaned it up with Goo-Gone.) The badges were missing from the side-plate, which seems to be common with these reels. This Roddy is now... as good as it's going to get without replacement parts, and some creative tolerance abatement. As is, it's got more fishing time left in it.
It's about materials, the precision to which they are milled or cast, alignment, and stuff like that.
I'd be tempted to give it an A, but Of course I don't have the reel in-hand. With the Aluminum gear, to me anyway, it could still be an A, given the design and other materials. The MG 300, etc. for example, are A's to me. "A" subjective judgement, indeed. Sounds like it's a heavy for it's size spinner. Me like! Great write-up and pictures.
Hey, Greg. Thanks. Yeah, this rating thing is pretty subjective. I think mo65's "B-movie" is a fun way to look at it.
I guess the subjectivity is what's intrigued me. Been on a tear here learning about reels and trying to put some objectivity to it. That's just the way my mind works.
I really dunno what to make of all the "extra" gearing (compared to the more standard worm gear mechs), nor how durable aluminum might be able to be. The engineering put into all those reels out there is interesting. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat. And a lot of cats out there to skin, considering the whole range of fishing, from chubs to... marlin, tuna, and sharks. I mention chubs bc I, as a kid, used to hand-line chubs in a local creek, using no reel at all. Things got more complicated from there though! :)
Good tutorial and explanations, Paul!
Like you, I know that these reels are built pretty tough.
The problem points to consider would be materials & non-parts availability.
Mating aluminum gears (or even a softer alloy) with a SS worm drive — is the first red flag.
The main and secondary gears should be either a hard alloy at the least — or machined bronze at the best.
This will make a longer-lasting, as well as a smoother operating spinner.
Steel on steel would be no good — no chance for the main to play well with the worm. They fight each other.
Too many secondary gears are another issue.
And then there is the inherent heritage of the Roddy's to skimp on key pressure points in regards to the frame, foot stem, and some built in features that if a nub is busted off — means you will call it a day way too early.
A solid "B" reel, IMO.
Thanks for showing us!
Best, Fred
I think you pretty much nailed the main points/flags to consider, Fred. I'm relatively new to considering these things with any rigor, hence my equivocating language. A set of aluminum gears, with all those mesh points, certainly seemed like a flag to me. And I can feel this in the handle; Too much play has developed there.
Grading the quality of a spinning reel is clearly subjective. As the old saying goes "It's all in the eyes of the beholder". One should add "and mind" in this instance. Some want smoothness & quietness while others, like me, appreciate that aspect but are willing to give a little there for simplicity, stoutness, quality drag, strong anti-reverse, low maintenance and trouble free usage. Parts availability may be a small concern but parts usually can be found or made for most quality spinning reels. With regards to smoothness, I could care less about how many times the handle rotates freely with a flick of it as long as it's not binding up. Free spinning, or spooling as it's called in casting reels, has no relevance in spinning reels other than to try to convince the novice that they have a quality reel, which in most cases they don't.
Case in point, I've got still my my original Zebco Cardinal 3, 2-4s & 6. The 4s & 6 are over 50 years old & the 3 is 47. All have been well used and still working like new. The only major overhaul was adding aluminum spools to the 4s.
Edit: Not sure that previous Paul post got quoted (stuck) in the middle of the first paragraph. The gremlins (my fingers) must have been at it. It wasn't pertinent to what I was stating, especially where it was located.
Quote from: foakes on September 29, 2021, 04:35:07 PM
Steel on steel would be no good — no chance for the main to play well with the worm. They fight each other.
Don't the Shakespeare Royal Maroons have both the pinion and main gear in steel?
Frank
Agree entirely, Tom. The ability of a reel to spin frictionless is indeed unimportant in spinners, although critical to DD conventional reels.
I guess my defn of a good fishing reel rating would include most basically: the ability to perform for the type of fishing I'm engaged in, durability, and tolerable noise. The "ability to perform" slides quickly into complexity and subjectivity.
Quote from: happyhooker on September 29, 2021, 09:45:48 PM
Don't the Shakespeare Royal Maroons have both the pinion and main gear in steel?
Frank
Frank, I happen to have one handy (the Pflueger 551 version) and checked with a magnet. Both the pinion and main gear are magnetic. From what I've read, you could have both gears be steel, but tolerances would need to be very precise for them to work together.
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 29, 2021, 09:50:51 PM
From what I've read, you could have both gears be steel, but tolerances would need to be very precise for them to work together.
Yes...tolerances must be tight for steel on steel. I've had aftermarket steel gears feel very rough, but also had them feel super smooth. Besides the Royal Maroon series, there is the South Bend Classic series if you like steel on steel gearing. Here's a photo of the Classic 960's engine...my holy grail of gears! 8)
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
mo65, welcome back to your thread! :) That SB has some serious gearing. Is that a steel oscillation arm too?
philaroman, I would think steel in steel in an UL, probably even a L reel would be... an overbuilt overbuild! I suspect that the line strengths reels are built for weigh in to how robust components need to be. Something that factors into what makes up a quality reel. Which is in part why my Shaky Sigma 030 has lasted over 30yrs as a goto UL. Guess same could be said for my D1300 Daiwa. They've never been taken beyond their limits.
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 30, 2021, 04:10:21 PM
mo65, welcome back to your thread! :) That SB has some serious gearing. Is that a steel oscillation arm too?
Yes, its a stamped steel of some sort. All the parts inside the Classics are steel. 8)
Quote from: philaroman on September 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 30, 2021, 06:50:54 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.
So would that be a Filet Mignon or would you have to do a cut away to have that nomenclature ?
Quote from: Wompus Cat on October 01, 2021, 12:34:02 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 30, 2021, 06:50:54 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.
So would that be a Filet Mignon or would you have to do a cut away to have that nomenclature ?
it's about longevity
you enjoy a Filet Mignon & within 24 hrs., it's poop :(
you enjoy a Cargem Mignon, a whole lot longer -- just ask Tom ;D
Quote from: philaroman on October 01, 2021, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Wompus Cat on October 01, 2021, 12:34:02 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 30, 2021, 06:50:54 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.
So would that be a Filet Mignon or would you have to do a cut away to have that nomenclature ?
it's about longevity
you enjoy a Filet Mignon & within 24 hrs., it's poop :(
you enjoy a Cargem Mignon, a whole lot longer -- just ask Tom ;D
Now that's pretty good, Phil! :D :D :D ;D
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 01, 2021, 01:36:31 AM
Quote from: philaroman on October 01, 2021, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Wompus Cat on October 01, 2021, 12:34:02 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 30, 2021, 06:50:54 PM
Quote from: philaroman on September 30, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon
Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?
Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.
So would that be a Filet Mignon or would you have to do a cut away to have that nomenclature ?
it's about longevity
you enjoy a Filet Mignon & within 24 hrs., it's poop :(
you enjoy a Cargem Mignon, a whole lot longer -- just ask Tom ;D
Now that's pretty good, Phil! :D :D :D ;D
Well you can get Filet Mignon's Every Day at a Quality Meat Market so you can enjoy those too a long time .
Course there is that Recycling process you mentioned. Phil ::)
OK, let's approach it another way: you can't have your filet & eat it, too
Tom can have his Cargem & use it, too... through many bovine generations
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear driven. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an oilite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
what is the largest Mitchell Spinning reel size?
Quote from: Riy2018 on October 22, 2021, 07:15:07 PM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear driven. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an oilite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
what is the largest Mitchell Spinning reel size?
Pre or post 1980? Skirted or non-skirted?
I have a 302 and a 499, there both pretty close.
The Man
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 22, 2021, 07:59:41 PM
Quote from: Riy2018 on October 22, 2021, 07:15:07 PM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on September 20, 2021, 09:48:32 PM
Well, other than a weak sentimental moment regarding the Mitchell 304, when an unmentioned part of my rear end was talking when my mouth/mind knew better, in my NSHO, for any open face spinner to be considered an "A" grade reel it has to at least be worm gear driven. "A", "B" & "C" grade quality variations derive from there, pinion & main gear and bearing support, etc. In some instances an oilite may even be better than a ball bearing. When I think about the time and money spent fishing I wouldn't even consider using a non-worm gear driven reel.
what is the largest Mitchell Spinning reel size?
Pre or post 1980? Skirted or non-skirted?
Im looking for pre 1980 Mitchell Largest Saltwater Reel like 302.
what is the biggest model.