Thought some new rod builders here may find the visuals and tip I had for layout useful. I'm not following the blueprint exactly here, but I tell what it is I'm doing differently so hopefully there is no confusion. Hope it is useful to someone, tight lines!
https://youtu.be/pdt5Ft9mM9Y
Excellent video and narration you nailed it! I have used the same concept on all my spinning blanks.
Joe/Off the Hook Rod & Reel
It is a very good setup 👍
Superbly presented TFH, I am pleased to have now visited (and bookmarked) your channel. As a novice, I am developing a passion for repairing, modifying, building rods and this could have really helped me with my latest project completed yesterday! A visual reference makes such a difference.
Quote from: Leerie18 on May 06, 2019, 06:19:37 AM
Superbly presented TFH, I am pleased to have now visited (and bookmarked) your channel. As a novice, I am developing a passion for repairing, modifying, building rods and this could have really helped me with my latest project completed yesterday! A visual reference makes such a difference.
Thanks! If you have a YouTube account (they are free to set up) you can subscribe to channels and turn on notifications (there is a little bell icon next to the subscribe button) and you will be notified as the channels you are subscribed to put out new videos. It makes it easy to keep track of the channels you like the best
Thank you. That was interesting. I don't think I could ever space the guides equally unless static loading demonstrates that is the proper spacing. I have heard of the concept guide spacing and now that I look at it, it makes sense to me.
For me, the line from the center of the spool to the reducer, all guides in between, I would try to get the line in the center of the guide (not touching the ring) all the way to the reducer to reduce friction if at all possible. Very interesting though.
Quote from: Bryan Young on May 06, 2019, 02:14:53 PM
Thank you. That was interesting. I don't think I could ever space the guides equally unless static loading demonstrates that is the proper spacing. I have heard of the concept guide spacing and now that I look at it, it makes sense to me.
For me, the line from the center of the spool to the reducer, all guides in between, I would try to get the line in the center of the guide (not touching the ring) all the way to the reducer to reduce friction if at all possible. Very interesting though.
I understand that thought process on trying to center the line from the center of the spool to the center of the reducer guides leading to the choker. It certainly makes sense logically. I will say this tough, when you lay it out as described by RodMaker Magazine and start doing static load testing with the line actually on the line roller and in different positions, there is some pull down (in most positions in the rotation of the rotor) of the line before it contacts the lower most part of the stripper/butt guide. That may be the reason for lining up the center line of the spool with that lower most portion of the reduction guides. In other words, it may have more to do with allowing a smooth bend of the rod and even pressure on the guides while fighting a fish than just trying to optimize casting distance. That would be my thinking anyway. If you centered the reduction guides with the center of the spool, it may add stress to the rod tip under a load. That would be my theory anyway ;D
I do know that this layout method really works well and that is why I'm doing it this way again. I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to give it a shot. I think most anyone would be very pleased with the resulting rod. I would always do a static load test just to make sure everything looks right before doing my wraps though.
Thanks for that video. I am in process of planning guide spacing for a 7' casting rod. I looked at your channel and don't see a plan for casting rods. I have the CRB guide spacing chart to work off of. Do you recommend using that chart or do you have a novel way of spacing guides? Keep up with your videos they are most informative. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on May 06, 2019, 04:09:49 PM
Thanks for that video. I am in process of planning guide spacing for a 7' casting rod. I looked at your channel and don't see a plan for casting rods. I have the CRB guide spacing chart to work off of. Do you recommend using that chart or do you have a novel way of spacing guides? Keep up with your videos they are most informative. Dominick
Thank you! I do not use conventional reels at this time and haven't used them for many years. I wouldn't be much help on that subject unfortunately. My recommendation would be to temporarily attach the guides as recommend in the chart and do a load test making sure it seems to have a nice even curvature of the rod before doing my wraps and make any adjustments you see fit at that time.
Sorry I couldn't be more help on that, maybe someone else will chime in who has done a layout like this on a regular casting rod. Good luck to you with the build!
Love the fast response. Dominick
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on May 06, 2019, 04:22:01 PM
Quote from: Dominick on May 06, 2019, 04:09:49 PM
Thanks for that video. I am in process of planning guide spacing for a 7' casting rod. I looked at your channel and don't see a plan for casting rods. I have the CRB guide spacing chart to work off of. Do you recommend using that chart or do you have a novel way of spacing guides? Keep up with your videos they are most informative. Dominick
Thank you! I do not use conventional reels at this time and haven't used them for many years. I wouldn't be much help on that subject unfortunately. My recommendation would be to temporarily attach the guides as recommend in the chart and do a load test making sure it seems to have a nice even curvature of the rod before doing my wraps and make any adjustments you see fit at that time.
Sorry I couldn't be more help on that, maybe someone else will chime in who has done a layout like this on a regular casting rod. Good luck to you with the build!
You can use that principle on a baitcasting rod as well except you have to alter spiral wrap rods. That spacing is going to a little different.
Joe
Thanks for taking the time to put together and post the video. As I understand it, the NGC is intended to be interpreted as a "starting point" for final guide selection and placement, so your adding an extra guide, not having all the running guides the same size, etc. certainly does not "violate" the Concept, but typifies how it is implemented. Another typical change involves the reduction guides; the "standard" placement of these guides leads to a "bulls-eye" configuration, that is, if you sight through the reduction guides to the choker, the guide rings should appear to be inside one another in what looks like a bulls-eye target; the change involves moving these guides so, rather than a bulls-eye, the rings are slightly toward the bottom of each other, the theory being this may help the line make the turn, so to speak, at the angle where the reduction guides switch over to the running guides. However you do it, I think there is some logic to the general theory of getting the line spirals off the spool narrowed down fairly quickly and letting the running guides carry the line out through the tiptop. Static testing lets the action of the rod get involved in the process too, letting the line follow the curve of the rod under load.
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on May 07, 2019, 03:08:06 AM
Thanks for taking the time to put together and post the video. As I understand it, the NGC is intended to be interpreted as a "starting point" for final guide selection and placement, so your adding an extra guide, not having all the running guides the same size, etc. certainly does not "violate" the Concept, but typifies how it is implemented. Another typical change involves the reduction guides; the "standard" placement of these guides leads to a "bulls-eye" configuration, that is, if you sight through the reduction guides to the choker, the guide rings should appear to be inside one another in what looks like a bulls-eye target; the change involves moving these guides so, rather than a bulls-eye, the rings are slightly toward the bottom of each other, the theory being this may help the line make the turn, so to speak, at the angle where the reduction guides switch over to the running guides. However you do it, I think there is some logic to the general theory of getting the line spirals off the spool narrowed down fairly quickly and letting the running guides carry the line out through the tiptop. Static testing lets the action of the rod get involved in the process too, letting the line follow the curve of the rod under load.
Frank
Awesome input, thanks so much! With this being an 8 foot long ultralight rod, I think the extra guide will be a positive thing. The choker and the 1st guide past the choker have a slightly larger ring size than the remaining running guides and slightly taller frames. It sure does look good under a load so I'm hoping everything works as well in use as it looks in testing on this one. An 8' long ultralight should cast extremely well if the guides do their part. I mostly kayak fish and long glass rods have always been my go to for casting distance. This is a super sensitive graphite blank with a whippy top end that seems to be perfect for my needs. Won't know for sure until I put it to use, but I have a good feeling about it! That old 4300ss looks pretty nice on there too ;D
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on May 07, 2019, 03:50:21 AM
I mostly kayak fish and long glass rods have always been my go to for casting distance. This is a super sensitive graphite blank with a whippy top end that seems to be perfect for my needs. Won't know for sure until I put it to use, but I have a good feeling about it! That old 4300ss looks pretty nice on there too ;D
This might sound like a stupid question. Why do you need to cast when you are in a kayak? I would assume all you had to do was drop and jig. I don't kayak so I really don't know. Dominick
well, if they're on (close to) the surface 200' away
you can't paddle over & jig
they might always be 200' away ;D
Yeah that is right. A lot of the areas I fish in are shallow and very clear creeks. Keeping distance from the places that typically hold fish is important. On lakes...I'm lazy so it cuts down on some paddling ;D
Good explanation of the basic NGC, which generally works out for lighter and shorter rods, though the x27 aspect is worrisome, as it does not take into account the length of the rod blank, just which reel is being used.
Personally have looked at the NGC and the more advanced KRC from Fuji, and had lengthy correspondence with them over the adaptation of their concepts for log surf rods. The outcome, was to ignore some of the 'angle of reel spine' and 'x27' ideas, and try and understand what is actually happening with the braid when you are casting, how the circular aspect of the spirals coming off the reel, have huge energy when close to the reel, and that this energy dissipates the further you get away from the reel, so having your first guide too close to the reel, actually takes power and distance away from the cast, when trying to squeeze the coils into conforming to the small but high first guide.
On a typical 12' surf spinning rod that we build we have found the optimum position for the first guide to be between 50-70 inches from the reel seat, then the reduction guides closer than you indicate, followed by 5-6 small guides at the top. This we found gave optimum distance, which in the case of the 3oz version of this blank was about 130-140 yards when cast over grass.
We then took the same theory and extrapolated it up to 15' long rods, with slightly different guides being used, but still very high and relatively very small, and pushing the first guide even further r up to blank to about 80", and that worked a dream with a whole range of blanks, some sending 7oz test sinkers well over 200 yards, and absolutely silent conditions of the braid flowing over the guides.
This aspect of silence during the cast is a fairly 'unscientific' method of determining levels of friction between the braid and the guides, but what we found was that we could actually go down considerably on the size of the ring on the first guide to size 16 or 20, even for 50lb braid strengths, without any penalties on distance or line performance.
Subsequent to this, we have built a number of shorter spinning rods for clients, and the principle works equally well, with the distance to the first guide being considerably more than is suggested by the general wisdom of NGC or KRC formats. One 9' x 2oz rod for a guy fishing in the Okavango river for Tigerfish was so successful on the distance aspect, that it caused him a problem, standing in Namibia, his lures were landing in Angola, well over 100 yards away!!!
Ultimately, the NGC and KRC are not wrong, but there are some serious further developments from those basic concepts, with huge gains to be had, but more experimentation is needed.
Thanks, that is a lot of good information to keep in mind!
Just an update, I finished the rod this week and tested it against my best casting 7.5' fiberglass ultralight rod and in my very unscientific tests, I'm getting between 5-10 extra yards consistently. The test was using the same reel and line on both rods and throwing a 1/8oz egg sinker from the same starting point using the same casting style. 5-10 yards may not sound like much, but when you start adding it up over an entire day on the water, that is a lot of paddling saved ;D
I tried to match the colors on my thread wraps and amount of finish used to cover them because I was only removing and replacing two of the original guides.
It turned out pretty nice looking and I think it will be a nice rod to fish with.
The top section in each picture are the new guides and the lower section in each picture are the factory ones for comparison. The new ones have the higher framed guides.