I need some help trying to understanding rod lingo. So I purchase a Okuma CJ-C-801L Cedros rod. The rod is rated for 8-15 mono, light power, with medium rod taper. The rod was marketed as halibut, steelhead, sturgeon rod. This confused me because these all come to mind as large fish. I originally bought the rod for dock fishing for sheepheads, but after reading this and watching video of rod in action made me wonder of other possible applications. Could this rod possibly be used for mangrove snapper fishing with braid?
Seems like every rod manufacturer has different meanings for the terms so it makes it hard to determine the characteristics of different brands.
Typically the maximum drag setting is 1/3 of the higher line rating number. In you case 1/3 of 15 would be a max drag of 5 lb. Higher drag pressure may break the rod. Sure you could catch river mangroves but not offshore mangroves due to the size difference. A lot of the ratings have insurance built in because a lot of people simply do not know how to use a rod correctly. Seeker may sell me a blank that is rated 40-80 but when they build the rod and sell it under the Seeker name they down rate it slightly like a 30-70 for example.
Dwight
i've had discussions with several rod manufacturers about a more standard label. i doubt that anything will come of it.
At least some of it seems to marketing hype, esp. when they name off fish species. Maybe thinking about what Newell Nut was talkin about and the terminal tackle to be used, casting distance desired, the need for a soft casting touch for bait, etc., would suffice.
I gotta a $30 Shimano 8.5' "TRD" about 15 yrs. old, from Big 5 Sporting Goods, that's superb for reef fishing. Med. action, alota guides on it for a cheapo rod and it handles 3/4-2oz. lures and bait real well. Put a $300+ dollar Revo Toro Beast on her and it's the cat's meow for yak castin.
I have never understood the line rating on rods. In the age of spectra it gets even more confusing. The species thing is just silly.
The number that speaks to me is the lure weight number and the action (fast/slow) because they sort of tells you what the rod will feel like.
-steve
Yeah. readin this again, Sharkmans Okuma rod marketing( halibut, steelhead and sturgeon) don't make sense. Steelhead would be that TRD I described above. Sturgeon and halibut might be the same rod for a boat, shorter and much stouter. Sturgeon from the shore for me would be a 11'+ surf type rod that'ed handle 6-12oz. wts. for casting.
Quote from: sharkman on June 14, 2019, 08:25:52 PM
. The rod is rated for 8-15 mono, light power, with medium rod taper. The rod was marketed as halibut, steelhead, sturgeon rod. This confused me because these all come to mind as large fish.
California halibut are not large like Pacific halibut. I fish for steelhead with a 9' 10# rod and have landed a lot of larger fish, most when I lived in in Alaska and one wild fish close to 20# on the Wilson River in Oregon, but the average steelhead is 8-10 pounds. My sturgeon gear is 6-6.5' 40# and my Pacific halibut gear is 5.5'-6.5' 50#.
Quote from: alantani on June 15, 2019, 01:28:19 PM
i've had discussions with several rod manufacturers about a more standard label. i doubt that anything will come of it.
Wouldn't that be nice!
Steve (OC1) - this thread made me think about - you may not understand rod ratings (as if any of us can make sense of it) but you were doing some really neat stuff with creating your own blanks, etc. I remember reading terms like "modulus" and "elasticity" and other crazy high tech composite stuff. Are you still playing with it? I hope so! With your skills I figured you were one step away from building an experimental aircraft.
I've always thought they could simplify it by giving a drag rating for the rod along with weight it will toss. I am certain this would be messed up also... Jeff
A picture of the rod/blank (loaded under the recommended weight) on a deflection graph would answer many questions. Seems to me if the manufacturer would add this in either a tag on the rod or on a website there would be more happier anglers out there. I love the way Kilsong has posted the videos of Black Hole rods on the test block and wish more did that.
Dave
Test curves.
Quote from: alantani on June 15, 2019, 01:28:19 PM
i've had discussions with several rod manufacturers about a more standard label. i doubt that anything will come of it.
There is a system out there. It is called Common Cents. It started out for fly rods, but works for conventional and spinning as well. The rod's butt is attached to a surface above and parallel to the floor. Weight is added to the tip until the tip has moved toward the floor a specified distance (30% of the rod length if I remember correctly). Now the tip deflection angle is measured with the weight still on the tip. These two numbers give you a quantifiable description of to amount of weight it takes to load the rod, and the action of the rod.
The equipment required: a plastic bag and a bunch of zinc based US pennies for weights, plus a PDF printout of the deflection angle scale.
These results can be compared between rods and a consensus emerges about what common cents numbers are preferred for specific uses. There are databases on the rodbuilding websites with the common cents rating for many commercially built fly rods and blanks. So if somebody hands me a generic fly rod with no labeling whatsoever, I can fairly accurately determine which fly line size/weight it should use, and even have a good idea which rods it is similar to. I think that a few fly rod blank manufacturers even publish their common cents numbers. But not the big name brands.
High quality, repeatable numbers can be obtained without the cooperation of the manufacturer. The downside for the rod companies promoting such a system is is that the ratings can show inconsistencies in manufacturing (the numbers might not match from one rod to the next for the same model), and lower priced alternatives to the high dollar gear can be more easily found by the consumer. I could watch a fishing show with my favorite celebrity, and when he/she recommends a sponsor's rod for a specific situation, I could simply look up the performance numbers and see what my other choices were at various price points and quality levels.
-J
https://www.common-cents.info/ (https://www.common-cents.info/)
In addition to load and action, there is also a way to measure the frequency (AKA speed- how snappy a rod is), but it appears that frequency testing gets more difficult to measure as the rods get bigger.
-J
Oc1 I usually look at lure wt or recommend sinker wt. Neither of these are on the rod or posted in the catalog. I even called Okuma and they didn't know either. The rod has a very similar action to ugly stik.
Quote from: oc1 on June 15, 2019, 07:54:12 PM
In the age of spectra it gets even more confusing....
-steve
A lot of them like St. Croix list heavier spectra line for a rod rating vs what the same rod is rated for mono. I asked St. Croix about this & came away assured of one thing, no one there that I talked to knew either... Jeff
So if you exceed the line rating is the rod going to break? I don't think so. As the pressure/pull increases, a well made rod held perpendicular to the fish will continue transferring power to lower portions of the rod (nearer to the butt). At the same time the tip straightens out and points to the fish so it will not break. The fisherman, much less the line, is not capable of breaking a well made blank a few feet from the butt. The material is just too strong down there. High-sticking negates the transfer of power to the butt and is about the only way to break the rod.
So, if the line rating does not reflect the breaking point of the rod, then what is it? Is, for example, 10-15 pound just the line weight that most people would use on that type of rod? Well, the guy who may have used 10-15 pound mono in the old days is getting the better performance from 20-30 pound spectra now. He still used a 10-15 pound rod though.
It makes no sense.
-steve
The only rod that I have broken is a St Croix 50-100 musky blank. Tech support told me all the musky guys used 28 lb of drag on that rod. I set my Newell at 20 lb and 5 seconds into a big red snapper and it exploded about 3 inches above the fore grip. They replaced it with one of their high end offshore spinning rod blanks. This thing is a beast and I would never put a spinner on a rod like that. I have never built anything out of it yet and I have tried to break here at the house. It is extremely strong but I have so many Hercules Seekers that it just sits in the plastic. One day I will build a bottom rod out of it. I do not think a fish can break that blank.
Dwight
I had a cedros rod I think it was 40lb to 80lb ,,musky,,very nice,,, ;) but it was not braid friendly,,,, :D so I gave it to a friend,,,,, ;D
Quote from: oc1 on June 17, 2019, 06:45:22 AM
So if you exceed the line rating is the rod going to break? I don't think so. As the pressure/pull increases, a well made rod held perpendicular to the fish will continue transferring power to lower portions of the rod (nearer to the butt). At the same time the tip straightens out and points to the fish so it will not break. The fisherman, much less the line, is not capable of breaking a well made blank a few feet from the butt. The material is just too strong down there. High-sticking negates the transfer of power to the butt and is about the only way to break the rod.
So, if the line rating does not reflect the breaking point of the rod, then what is it? Is, for example, 10-15 pound just the line weight that most people would use on that type of rod? Well, the guy who may have used 10-15 pound mono in the old days is getting the better performance from 20-30 pound spectra now. He still used a 10-15 pound rod though.
It makes no sense.
-steve
The combination of lure weight and line ratings are derived from the power of the rod (amount of force required to bend it). So somebody that casts 1-3 oz plugs to muskie with 12-20 lb mono should find that a "muskie" rod with a rating in this range to be about the the right power. If the same rod is used for the same fishing with the same lures, but now with braid, the braid used is typically a higher test than the mono. The rod works about the same as before, and is still probably as much the right rod for the job as it was with the lighter test mono.
So I think the rating "system" sort of makes sense, but agree that an entirely rational interpretation of the ratings can lead to choosing the wrong rod. A freshwater graphite casting rod rated for 50lb braid has a very good chance of blowing up if you set the drag to 18 lbs and set the hook on a 30 lb yellowfin. But a saltwater jig stick rated at 50 lbs. should handle this just fine.
Quote from: Newell Nut on June 17, 2019, 10:58:38 PM
The only rod that I have broken is a St Croix 50-100 musky blank. Tech support told me all the musky guys used 28 lb of drag on that rod. [snip...]
28 lbs? gotta love those muskie guys. If they really used that much force, there would be a lot of shallow water muskies getting airborne on the hookset. :D
-J
I think the line weight rating is just a guide for the size guides and layout that the blank was setup for with a few reels in mind .
If you play around with a rod guide calculator ,you will see how it changes .
For the spinning rods that i have played with , there is a big difference .
Here is one of the calculator that i use for starting points.
http://anglersresource.net/KRGPS.aspx
Those are California ratings.
Steelhead, sturgeon and halibut all run about the same size (5-30lbs) and you want a soft tip and typically use 12-15lb line from a boat. I'm guessing it's 8ft because that's standard length for kayaks and outboards.
What size weights do you use?