I thought I would take you through my recent experience with a new to me Penn International 80TW. Here it is with its smaller sibling, the 50TW.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7319.jpg)
My first impression was that it looked to be in pretty good shape. I checked most of the external screws to see if any were stuck right after I got it. All seemed OK except for the stand screws and studs. Fast forward a few weeks and I finally get to sit down and go through it. Stand screws wouldn't budge, so I let them soak for half a day with penetrating oil. I thought for sure they were going to snap as I was backing them out, but luckily they didn't. I did think there was some thread damage, however. Here is what I found.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7292.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7297.jpg)
And the frame, very corroded.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7299.jpg)
Here is the after. It appeared to have heavy white salt/corrosion buildup that couldn't be brushed away. I had to take a razor knife and scrape it away, along with part of the anodizing.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7302.jpg)
Here is the progression as I went through the rest of the reel.
Everything laid out, ready to begin.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7512.jpg)
Reel separates easily into four pieces.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7513.jpg)
Left sideplate bearing, French? Factory or replacement? All bearings were the same as this one.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7514.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7515.jpg)
Everything looked good, so it gets greased as well as the inside of the left plate.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7516.jpg)
Moving on to the spool.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7517.jpg)
Removed the clicker plate and bearing, everything got greased and reassembled.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7518.jpg)
Now, the left side of the spool. As I was disassembling the parts, I noticed a lot of regular grease in the drag area. Not good.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7519.jpg)
The drag washers had a fair amount of oily residue on them.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7520.jpg)
I set them aside and proceeded to clean and grease the spool ,bearing and bottom of drag plate.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7521.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7522.jpg)
I cleaned the drag washers by wiping them off as much as possible, and then used a hair dryer to heat them up and hopefully get out most of any remaining oil and grease. These washers were a hard carbon fiber, not the softer weave that was in the 50TW. Is this the dura drag material, or original HT-100?
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7523.jpg)
Drag washer greased with Cal's, as well as the spool edges adjacent to the washer.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7525.jpg)
And the rest of the drag is assembled, with grease where needed.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7526.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7527.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7528.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7529.jpg)
Completed left plate and spool.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7531.jpg)
Now, on to the right plate.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7532.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7533.jpg)
Everything is disassembled, cleaned, and greased.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7535.jpg)
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7536.jpg)
Now, the four parts ready to go back together.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/bl_lb/IMG_7537.jpg)
I used a tap and die to clean up the threads of the salt corroded stand screws and frame. Luckily, everything went back in fine, this time with PLENTY of grease under the stand and on the screws. If you get nothing else out of this, GREASE THIS AREA. Or, take it down for cleaning fairly frequently.
This wasn't a typical piece by piece tutorial, as many of the steps I left out have been covered in the rebuild threads of Alan's and others. This reel seems to be extremely simple and strong. I left the spring washers in their stock position, as the drag felt very strong as is. I will probably check it with a scale later on, just to see what it is capable of. Looking forward to trying this one out!
Great post Nemo - these reels are a pleasure to work on (and fish).
Cheers, Justin
I'm pretty sure the drag is HT-100. The Dura-Drag has a finer weave if I'm remembering right. :-\
great job and thank you. the drag washer doesnt look like a dura drag but look's like it's glazed to me. the one's i get in that shape i load up the cals and rub like mad. i noticed the more you buff it the weave come's back. you will notice your rag get's real black. then put on a light coat and wipe excess off. the corrosion is acutally not that bad. ive seen the right side plate almost rotten right thru. most of the water intrusion enter's thru the handle area, between the shaft and handle. the fiber washer doesnt stop all the water and eventually enter's thru the outter bearing.
mahalo
kamu
Quote from: kamuwela on October 28, 2011, 09:20:12 AM
great job and thank you. the drag washer doesnt look like a dura drag but look's like it's glazed to me. the one's i get in that shape i load up the cals and rub like mad. i noticed the more you buff it the weave come's back. you will notice your rag get's real black. then put on a light coat and wipe excess off. the corrosion is acutally not that bad. ive seen the right side plate almost rotten right thru. most of the water intrusion enter's thru the handle area, between the shaft and handle. the fiber washer doesnt stop all the water and eventually enter's thru the outter bearing.
mahalo
kamu
Kamu, you know this reel more than anybody I know; is there anything that can be done to help with the water intrusion? Maybe a different washer, or additional washers? :-\
changing the washer set up will help some but the inner side is alot larger then the shaft. im sure if you change the felt washer every time you service it you will stop most of it. make sure to leave the shield's on the outter bearing, this should stop most of it. check out the 50t i did here, that was a salt eating monster. the first few pic's tell the story. these reel's show exactly why we should pre service.
Thanks Kamu! That tutorial on the 50T was one of the first stops I made when I joined this great site. Keep up your excellent work Kamu... you really know your Internationals.
alan made me do it ;D
you have a very old reel with a very old carbon fiber drag washer. i'm a little hazy on the dates, but the old penn drag washers had too much glue on them, which is why they looked glazed.
there are two types of penn ht-100 drag washers. the penn jigmaster thickness is a single layer. it's a thick weave, but a single layer nonetheless. the penn senator thickness is made of three layers. there is a fiberglass core with a thinner layer of carbon fiber glued to both sides. up until about 10 years ago, they used so much glue that the glue would squeeze inbetween the pores of the carbon fiber when it was pressed together and then heat cured. that's why even the brand new drag washers looked glazed. the newer three-layer drag washers now have a proper amount of glue. to look at them, you might not even notice that one is thicker than the other.
in terms of what to do with this reel, it should be fine to just rub off all the excess crud off the the drag washers that you have, then apply a light coat of cal's grease and then just rub off all the excess. even when glazed, the carbon fiber should still work as long as it has a layer of cal's grease.
I took apart an old 80tw to rebuild. Now, the drag is way too tight. With lever at strike on lowest drag setting i have trouble pulling line out of reel. I disassembled and reassembled to try and see if I put it together wrong but could not find anything. Any suggestions?
how are the bellevilles oriented, "()()" or "(())"?
Those thingies are ()() like that.
It could be possible that the drag was like that before i took it apart. I just purchased the reel used and it was manufactured in 1990. Is it possible for the cam to be assembled wrong or the cam to be bad?
the cam is 180 out push it forward to strike or full, when it free spools reset the lever.
Tried to reset lever and that did not work. It seems as though when i pull out cam thrust washer it works like normal.... For some reason it seems like a spacing issue. Cleaned off all grease that i added. I had another working 80tw. That one was working fine... Took that apart today and serviced. Now it does the same thing too! Did i use too much grease? Was i not supposed to grease drag? Did i leave too much grease on washers or too little? Not sure... Any other thoughts?
it's a spacing issue. it has to be something done to both reels during reassembly. grease is not the cause.......
agreed, you have a spacing issue. have you looked at the scehamitic for that reel?
Yes i have disassembled and reassembled both reels like 20 times. Double ck and triple ck reels with schematics. Oh one more thing. I replaced those belleville washers. I took it to a reel repair shop today. This disassembled and reassembled reel and said everything was ok. They installed washers like so... (((). With drag knob all the way out reel does not freespool in free position. Lift up lever 1/4 way than it freespools. Adjust drag preset screw further in and drag function is almost normal but it seems as though the lever adjustment of drag is sudden and not gradual. I also tried to take apart cam housing area thats pressed into right side plate to try see if i could clean and tap it further in to side plate. Any ideas?
Mahalos for the help kamu and alan.
Also i checked other reel again and removed spacers from between belleville washers and that reel is like normal now. Is there anything i have to do to reel in order to compress belleville washers after reassembly?
looks like the belleville's need to go one way (((( take a look at the schematic. it just so happens that i just got 2 80tw's give me a few day's and ill pop it open and see.
Rajah kamu. Thanks
Huh, so the drag washer attaches to the spool, not the drive plate. That's interesting. What is on the other side of that drive plate? I am wondering if it's a double drag system, or what.
dual drag, sharing the spline on the pinion shaft.
Quote from: kamuwela on July 06, 2012, 06:54:20 AM
dual drag, sharing the spline on the pinion shaft.
Thats big heat! What kind of drag can it put out?
I remember reading that the new internationals had lower quality and plastic parts. I see no plastic parts, and note design improvements as well. Would you agree that the new intl are as good or better than the old?
the newer internationals are beautiful reels. and like the tiagra, makairas and ATD's, they are complicated. i still believe that there is a place for a very simple reel with fewer moving parts that can be serviced by anyone. the old penn international is such a reel.
Hey Alan and Kamu. I have the same problem as dweezy. Any updates? Mine is a 80stw and I also have taken it apart about 20 times. When you throw the drag lever forward, it stays in free spool just until strike, then it almost locks up. Not a smooth slow increase. I am a journeyman mechanic and this thing is driving me nuts >:( ??? :'( I put this reel aside but, now I want to use it again. I also noticed when I used it before, when I set the drag, the clicker would almost go away. If I set it too tight, there would be no clicker. This sounds like a clearance problem. Should I shim something somewhere? Any help would be most appreciated. Aloha.
sounds like the cam is off. you can reset it by using the lever, push the lever forward to where it free spools then reset the lever back to free. you may have to turn the lever upside down to get the cam pushed forward enough. or you can take the cam out and then reposition it in the side plate. are you on oahu? maybe i can help you out.
Aurai. I gotya. Never thought about that. Thought that you have to have the cam in the notches for free spool. I live on Kauai so, I can give it a try myself. Will let you know how it goes. Many mahalos bra. Aloha,
;D
Night Prowler and Dweezy,
I have an 80STW and it had a similar problem - lots of lever movement doing nothing then a very steep drag curve that locks up well before 'full'. Pushing the lever to 'full' was only possible with the pre-set screwed out and something told me all was not well inside as winding was tight if the drag was set too tight. So, I take it apart... my first venture into International disassembly...
I found there were only three belville washers stacked (() instead of the expected four stacked ()(). No wonder it was not right! So I need another washer and to refit them properly, then I expect the problem to be cured. I wonder whether it was always like that or if someone fiddled with it and didn;t notice they'd mucked up?
Anyway, the re-assembly is a project in progress and I plan to take some pictures as I go.
yes the washers go ()() stock position. take the right side apart and reassemble the cam and housing as a unit. install the bearing and handle you can test bearing travel with your thumb on the bearing and move the handle to make sure you have full travel before reassembly. i have used the handle upside down and the reel still assembled to manipulate the cam till i have it in the right position. if installed as a unit you wont have the problem. i learned this the hard way along time ago on my first few reels i did. learned alot since those early days thanks to alan and the gang.
Again, a few words about the effect of belleville spring washers. Their place in this context is very important. It happens with some regularity, that a poster complains of a unsatisfactory drag curve in their lever drag reel.* And with some regularity, it is eventually shown that someone has previously been fiddling with the arrangement of belleville spring washers.
The charts below are self-explanatory, if one visualizes the curves as the reel's resultant drag curve.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-19.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-22.jpg)
*Any / all / most / some lever-drag reels; not neccesarily relevant only to this reel or thread
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Well, Saturday afternoon I sat down with a kitchen table full of parts from the 80STW, a pot of tea and some nice blue marine grease (from Lucas) and of course the schematic diagram and some reading glasses!
I had taken every single bit apart - there are a lot, aren't there - except the itty bitty springs in the buttons for 'free' and 'strike'. Even the gear-change plunger came apart. Every scrap of rust and corrosion was removed and any rough bits on the drive gears gently rubbed with micromesh cloths till they shone like mirrors. In particular, the drag cam wanted a bit of attention as it had a rough corner that had scratched the thing it pushes forward.
I took the shields out of one side of each of the spool bearings, degreased them and repacked by hand - messy! The shields were scrapped but the shield on the other side of each bearing was OK so I replaced them with the shield side visible.
The two smaller bearings on the handle drive shaft had shields that could be removed and replaced by picking out a spring so after cleaning and packing, the shields were replaced. I meant to say that after removing the retaining spring, rather than risk damaging the shield when trying to dig them out, a gentle poke from the other side (ie right through the bearing) with a piece of #4 leader wire simply let them drop off.
Then I put it all back together again. All bits were greased except the drag plates (I know, I know) so there will be no further salt-water intrusion and corrosion out of sight.
It works!!!! ;D
No bits left over either :D
The drag is now smooth and powerful with a nice gradient - somehting that was missing before, along with the missing Belleville washer ::)
Great reel - now what to load on it?
Thanks everyone for all the great information here that really helped!
perfect good job now you are offically a reel nut, welcome to the club. glad it worked out now to the next project.
Thanks Kamuwela,
Couldn't have done it without you!
Next project is a Penn 130ST that was stuck in low gear. Judging by the shape of the handle, I suspect someone dropped it! But it is a big boogah and weighs more than most fish I've caught :D. I have a T-bar replacement to fit later.
I have got it to shift gears after a partial strip-down. Thankfully, nothing bent or broken internally, just an accumulation of dried grease and the nautical salty equivalent of pocket fluff that stopped the little pokey out bits poking out when they should. But it needs a thorough going over now that I know I can do the job on Internationals ;).
no problem, the 130 will be identical as the 30 just bigger parts. good luck chris
Hi guys, I just took apart my 3rd 50TW. When I put it back together, the reel is hard to crank. I have taken it apart three times now and can't figure out the problem. I checked the bellevilles and they are ()() stock configuration. The more drag I put on the harder it is to crank the reel. The reel freespooles fine it seems. Thanks in advance guys, this is really frustrating me.
Could the preset knob have gotten turned clockwise before reassembly?
I found out that the bearing inside the right side plate, the one inside the preset drag system, was stuck. I opened the shields, cleaned it out and now the reel cranks fine. I had to take apart another reel and switch out the right side plates before I could isolate the problem. Once I found that the problem was in the side plate and not the spool or left side, it didnt take long to find the bearing problem. I guess I hadn't checked the reel before I serviced it or I would have known there was a problem with the handle turning.
Thanks guys! Hope this helps someone else.
Hi Nemo
Looking at your tutorial and your original drag fibre washers, they are for sure the HT100 type and will require a light sand with 120grit dry paper and carb or brakeclean to get rid of dry burnt grease in fibres, then I would suggest fitting a rotary tuned drag metal plate, see this image:
sorry I am unable to insert the image of the drag plate? not sure why, anyway light Cals lube refurbished drag fibre washers and you will have a 100% drag system, try this web link to my products:
http://www.swordfishmarine.co.nz/index.php?page=xshop&thisOffset=55&lineIndex=55&find=&category=products&subcategory=&subcategory2=&function=look
cheers swordfishsteve
I love the use of the old sock in this build ;D.
I'd not noticed that before :D