I have a need to try this on some jigs and replace the split ring idea. Butt not sure if I have the right material or equipment/tools. Any information would be great. Thanks.
Why go through the trouble when they can be ordered cheaply through Bass Pro Shops. Or is it just something to do in those looong winters? :D Rudy
Gary, many moons ago when I was part of the Senor Tuna website, a member there did a tutorial on brazing the rings, not welding.....I would recommend brazing as it leaves a smoother joint than welding, where you would have to file or sand to prevent cutting your line if tying directly to the jig....havent been to that website since finding AT.com, dont know if they are still active. I cant access the website from my work computer due to their filters, but they dont filter AT.com, shhhh dont tell them ;) Bill
I was at Jon Vadney's house on a day he was soldering rings. He said solder will be strong enough to weld rings. I have no experience with them. Dominick
I use a Blazer Torch, some stay silv black, and silver solder. I use my fly vise to hold either the hook or the ring for the jig. The rings are cheaper to get at chain mail stores online.
Here
Thanks. firstly bass stuff is generally intended for bass. I need at least 150# test rings, and to install the ring on a jig they have to be 5/8 3/4 inch minimum to spread enough to install. If the ring doesent have enough spring and wire diameter they stay open and are deformed post install. Finding larger split rings presently fuels the post. I generally make my own stuff if I cant find what I need economically
I guess I meant solder instead of weld. Will silver solder bond to stainless steel wire? or do i need brass wire? The torch pictured might be a butane type? Do i need Mapp gas? Just wondering.
https://youtu.be/lRO4mSjphhE
The black flux, silver solder and brazing torch are all readily available online.
If you get the silver solder at a jeweler's supply you can choose "easy", "medium", or "hard" solder. The easy flows at a lower temperature but is not quite as strong. Hard flows at a higher temperature and is stronger. "Easy" solder would be strong enough for this application and it is easier to work with. You can quickly get the ring too hot so the torch melts it. If you buy silver solder at an air conditioning supply it will be really hard and difficult to work with.
I use the white Stay Silv because it is easier to watch it get to the right temperature. Whether you use white or black, the important thing is to have the ring really really clean and shiny before applying the flux. Buff the ring with a piece of sand paper to make sure any clear finish is removed.
After soldering, you need to wash/scrub the flux off and you might want to pickle it with some vinegar. Sometimes the flux will form a glass-like coating that is not removed with a quick rinse. Silver solder will corrode and any flux remnants will make it corrode faster.
-steve
Quote from: gstours on November 15, 2019, 02:58:22 AM
Thanks. firstly bass stuff is generally intended for bass. I need at least 150# test rings, and to install the ring on a jig they have to be 5/8 3/4 inch minimum to spread enough to install. If the ring doesent have enough spring and wire diameter they stay open and are deformed post install. Finding larger split rings presently fuels the post. I generally make my own stuff if I cant find what I need economically
I guess I meant solder instead of weld. Will silver solder bond to stainless steel wire? or do i need brass wire? The torch pictured might be a butane type? Do i need Mapp gas? Just wondering.
That little butane torch is all you needed. I used to use a torch meant for searing steaks and such, the flame was too wide. A friend gifted me two of these, and the flame is MUCH more controllable. It only takes a few seconds to heat the ring up for the silver solder to flow. If you want you can have my extra torch, it's unused.
Quote from: oc1 on November 15, 2019, 04:29:19 AM
If you get the silver solder at a jeweler's supply you can choose "easy", "medium", or "hard" solder. The easy flows at a lower temperature but is not quite as strong. Hard flows at a higher temperature and is stronger. "Easy" solder would be strong enough for this application and it is easier to work with. You can quickly get the ring too hot so the torch melts it. If you buy silver solder at an air conditioning supply it will be really hard and difficult to work with.
I use the white Stay Silv because it is easier to watch it get to the right temperature. Whether you use white or black, the important thing is to have the ring really really clean and shiny before applying the flux. Buff the ring with a piece of sand paper to make sure any clear finish is removed.
After soldering, you need to wash/scrub the flux off and you might want to pickle it with some vinegar.
Sometimes the flux will form a glass-like coating that is not removed with a quick rinse. Silver solder will corrode and any flux remnants will make it corrode faster.
-steve
Great info! Wish I saw your pst earlier. Would have saved me a lot of money and heart ache!!
That is pretty much what Jon Vadney was doing. Easy peazy. Dominick
Many thanks for the information, ;) I have several butatne torches so now I need the answer can I solder stainless steel wire? What grades is there a spafic type? I,m thinking some 304 sst tig rod as it is what i,ve got . seems bendable.
Should a person make a butt connection or more like a split ring and the solder? Just wondering? Thanks.... :)
Soldering stainless is more difficult than soldering brass. The stainless will flash off a layer of corrosion if you just breath on it. The soldering technique is the same though. After cleaning/buffing put on the flux immediately. Heat until it's just ready to glow and touch the silver solder to it as you continue to heat. As soon as it flows pull the torch back. Solder follows heat so you can sort of pull it around a bit by moving the torch. If it looks good enough then quit while you're ahead instead of trying to make it better. If it starts to look cruddy and the solder beads up but won't flow, then you may have to start the process over. If you keep increasing the heat for too long then you will melt the work piece and really have to start over.
To make rings I wrap the wire around a drill bit or other mandrel. Slide the coil off and use snips to cut off one wrap at a time to make rings, or two wraps at a time to make split-rings. The butt joint will work and is should be strong enough. The soldered joint will be the strongest part of the ring. The two-wrap thing will be much more rigid though so it can't even be twisted out of shape. You can also solder the whole coil at once to make a crude tube or collar or pipe.
The trickiest part is making the solder joint so nice that it doesn't need to be burnished afterwards. Its tedious to grind off excess globs of solder and get a nice smooth surface again.
-steve
Thanks for more info, Butt what about brass wire/rod for the ring? seems like it would solder at possibly lower temp and be easier?
I started this a while ago using copper solid elect wire, butt wasnt happy with the look, yet it did solder fine and thought it would corrode fast and lose its strength. Butt when the rocks grab and put a permenent hold on the lure it remind us nothing lasts forever?
You can buy brass wire in just about any size. Monel is another option but it has become difficult to find these days
The soldering temperature is determined by the alloy of the solder, not the ring material alloy. Brass and stainless can be joined at the same temperature when using the same solder. But, you need a large enough difference in the melting temperature of the solder and the melting temperature of the ring material that you can control it with a hand torch without burning through the ring.
Another thing is that the metal will loose it's temper when heated. The joint will be strong, but not too rigid. You can get the temper back by work hardening. After soldering, lay the ring on an anvil and strike it with a hammer. Don't hit it hard enough to make a sharp edge. The ring will work harden further just by using it.
-steve
Look up brazing with silver solder. I find it very strong I have used both stainless steel and brass. I try to use re-use materials when possible, like stainless steel bicycle spokes. If it's weak you will know it when you bend them.
Just starting out myself to braze some things and wondering for any who might already know. Brass should braze easily at lower temps but would not be as strong as SS, I'd like to see some kind of failure testing but haven't found but one video on the web that wasn't really scientific and didn't show any actual numbers. Don't know if anyone has ever done this but information seems like it would be useful. In other words. If I were to use brass wire for making rings for rock fishing our central coast waters that might be enough strength for the task, Butt would it be enough for the butts Gary targets?
What material would be best suited for that, or cow tuna?
Is SS the preferred material for all rings?
I purchased a variety of sizes and thickness rings from the above site (mentioned in the brazing video) this will give me plenty to practice with.
Maybe I'll have to figure out how to make myself a hydraulic tester of some sort that would give me a failure in PSI.
A big enough spring scale should give you an answer.
Quote from: David Hall on November 18, 2019, 01:06:13 AM
Just starting out myself to braze some things and wondering for any who might already know. Brass should braze easily at lower temps but would not be as strong as SS, I'd like to see some kind of failure testing but haven't found but one video on the web that wasn't really scientific and didn't show any actual numbers. Don't know if anyone has ever done this but information seems like it would be useful. In other words. If I were to use brass wire for making rings for rock fishing our central coast waters that might be enough strength for the task, Butt would it be enough for the butts Gary targets?
What material would be best suited for that, or cow tuna?
Is SS the preferred material for all rings?
I purchased a variety of sizes and thickness rings from the above site (mentioned in the brazing video) this will give me plenty to practice with.
Maybe I'll have to figure out how to make myself a hydraulic tester of some sort that would give me a failure in PSI.
Stainless is stronger than brass.
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/AISI-316-S31600-Stainless-Steel/UNS-C23000-CW502L-Red-Brass (https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/AISI-316-S31600-Stainless-Steel/UNS-C23000-CW502L-Red-Brass)
You're right David. It is brazing, not soldering, because the temperature is over about 800 F and there is a filler material (solver solder). Brass can also be brazed with brass rod filler.
If you silver solder two pieces of brass or two pieces of stainless together then try to force them apart, they will both break at the edge of the solder. But, that's with some twisting and bending because I don't have anything strong enough to break either one without first weakening the metal by twisting and bending.
I'd really like to see someone breaking a brass and a stainless soldered ring with the proper equipment.
I guess you could solder a brass ring then solder a stainless ring to the brass ring. Tie one ring to the truck bumper and tie the other ring to that rotten old pillar on the corner of the porch. Hey, wait a minute. I'll be back.
-steve
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and information. I,m not trying to get the most out of the testing of ultimate strength initially just wondering what to purchase when possible to continue the jig problem of eliminating the split ring. I have learned from you ... :)
Many might say why do you wanna do this anyway ?? Answer is ?? Knowledge is 💥
I have been ringing hooks for many years, silver solder works well if there are no gaps.
Anytime I can invest $100 or so for $12 worth of fishing gear, but get to make something myself I'm in all the way. Buy high sell low that's my motto.
Quote from: David Hall on November 19, 2019, 05:16:18 AM
Anytime I can invest $100 or so for $12 worth of fishing gear, but get to make something myself I'm in all the way. Buy high sell low that's my motto.
Funny but true for me too David!
I bought a tube of silver rods for $50.00 plus the flux. = $$$
Just because...
I am still using the same flux and solder I bought years ago, a little goes a long way. If the flux dries out add water. Replacing hooks on $10.00-$20.00 iron and ringing hooks is cost effective.
I have several 275# scales if anyone wants to test their rings. They sold for much more but I will sell them for $25 plus shipping.
Quote from: David Hall on November 19, 2019, 05:16:18 AM
Anytime I can invest $100 or so for $12 worth of fishing gear, but get to make something myself I'm in all the way. Buy high sell low that's my motto.
Couldn't agree more.
Thanks for the comeback. We all fish a little differently but generally want a fairly short path to success. I got a scales a few years ago and its very usefull in testing tackle. I have done a fair amount of knot testing the static load method I think its called. I always still jump when the line breaks, kind of like the same jumpy you did do when a phaesant came out of the little bush at your feet!!!!!! ;)
I would encourage others to look a Lee,s scales as they quantify if your good or just joe average. Thanks again.
you still have to pull on it. I might be able to hang myself and not break it. Maybe a boat trailer wench.
-steve
https://youtu.be/t8ewW2_ndWE (https://youtu.be/t8ewW2_ndWE)
https://youtu.be/lRO4mSjphhE (https://youtu.be/lRO4mSjphhE)
You can heat SS it to a red glow and cool slowly to anneal it. This makes it easier to wrap around a mandrel when making your own ring blanks. Bending it or whacking it with a brass hammer will stiffen and harden it again.
-steve
After reading this posts reply's several times and retrying to silver solder my first ring of a stainless steel ring with no success. 👿. The ring is shiny clean, close gap, fluxed with various fluxes. 4% silver wire, butune flame 🔥. After heating the solder roll around , balls, butt never flows and bonds like typical brazing or welding. I,m using a stainless steel rem from a crab pot. It's clean and bright.
What alloys are being used for this application? Just wondering.😾
Are you adding flux before soldering? Bill
I had no better luck and I am using the black flux, the proper wire, butanr torch I tried to tin the ends of some copper wire, the solder just balled up and didn't stick. Practice, practice, practice. I need to try more.
If it beads up but doesn't flow then either it is not hot enough or it is heating up so slowly that some oxidized crud is forming and coating everything. The whole process from the time you strike the torch until the solder flows will only be about ten seconds; maybe less. Once the ring is shiny clean, securely supported, and fluxed, be aggressive about heating it. Do not touch the solder to the stainless until it is just beginning to glow. It should flow immediately or bead up for just a second and then flow.
You can get a really hot pointed flame from a mini torch with propane and oxygen. Butane and air will work, but it is more difficult to use and makes more crud. When in doubt, turn up the flame. After you burn through the stainless ring a few times you'll learn when to give up and start over.
I would never do this job without a Fordom flexible shaft tool with a wire brush bit. The thing that prevents stainless from corroding, is the thin layer of flash oxidation (corrosion) that forms very soon after it is cut. You can't really see it, it just looks like stainless steel, but it's there. You need something that will remove that layer of oxidation quickly so you can get on with the job of soldering before it returns.
I don't know what 4% solder is. I have several silver solders that I could never get to work for me. Now I only use this:
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/wire-solder-med-70-slvr-20ga-rnd/101703 (https://www.riogrande.com/Product/wire-solder-med-70-slvr-20ga-rnd/101703)
-steve
Thanks mr. Octi, your solder in the link appears to be 70% silver . Maybe the low percent silver is for brass, silver,or copper. Here's the things that I have tried.
Another flux was tried, it's like a gel, grey, and another silver bearing solder about 5% with no better results.
I,m going to try again with a higher silver content solder when I can. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I couldn't make any of those products work for me. Try the solder in the link above with Stay Silv paste flux. Don't be stingy with the flux either. Put on a glob of it.
-steve
It may be helpful to others to notice that the higher content silver wire/solder is quite stiff more like most wire compared to 3-5% silver wire that is very soft and bendable. The black flux is made for the higher temperatures and stays on good butt it did not work for me using brass rings?
Incentidentally if someone wants some I,ll send you some for free as I got a pound for the price of a couple ounces. Thanks 🙏.
LOL, I ordered the same can from Amazon, I didn't think it was quite so big from the picture on the web. Now I got enough solder to last a lifetime or two.
My new nippers and my new butane torch arrived today and, just when I discover that my other butane torch, ( the one I purchased last year for the purpose of igniting the sawdust in my bbq cold smoker, has a lever to increase or decrease the flame and I've had it set at its lowest setting all this time? Doh! I hate it when I do that.
Here's the new nippers and torch kit.
Ok, Dave you got what it takes. The black flux seems to work on stainless steel as advertised its for higher heat applications. Forget any soft wire solders even though they may contain 3-7% silver and go to about 35-55% silver bearing solder wire in about .035-.050'' diameter. The higher silver wire will be quite stiff and ive had much better results with it. Amazon or e-bay should have it. Butt i,m no expert. :'(
Your Knipixx cutters are my next investment, Like you said, I hate it when I do that. :D