I read with interest the post about building a 113 Grouper special, and had a cheap 113 on hand I had bought for the long power handle, so, I got a 149 main gear and a 113H pinion from Scotts in NJ, and HT100's too. I did my Dremel work and put the right side plate together, beautiful, butter smooth, loved it. I'm waiting for a 66 Long Beach spool and one of Ted's Tank Top stand and posts, so I put it together with the standard spool and posts, and then I get a gear buzz, bzzzzzzzzzz when cranking. You can feel the vibration and slightly hear it. Great free spool. So, on investigating if I take my fingernail and put slight side tension on the pinion, it does it. If I just set the spool on the side plate, it does it. I've tried a different pinion. The bushing is very loose on the pinion. it measures just under .215, maybe you could call it .214 1/2 on my dial calipers. Or maybe the spool shaft is tweaked and is the problem? Do any Penn gurus out there have any idea? Thanks, Jeff
If both gears you purchased are SS -- the roughness is normal -- and can be quieted down some with good grease -- but it is normal. Nothing else to do.
If one of the gears are brass or bronze -- the gear mesh will be quieter -- although not as tough.
Best, Fred
Alto Mare built one and talked of how velvet-smooth this gearing is, and it is without the spool installed. It is greased, and I have never heard any Penn make this noise. This is not a "just live with it, because it's normal" type of thing.
Sea Dragon, check your other posting. You do not need to post the same thing on different posts. Keep it all together. All posts go to everyone so there is no need to be repeditive. Rudy
Sorry Rudy, I posted on the Senator page and could not find it, I was afraid it didn't work, but later found it on page 2. I'm just getting familiar with this place, when I found it on page 2 I knew someone was going to point that out.
Does your pinion side bushing show wear? I don't think it should be sloppy at all. A little loose is good but sloppy is bad and could mess up your gear mesh. Go back and take a good look at the photos in the grouper special threads and pay close attention to the pinion to bushing fit so you can visually compare to yours. I'll measure mine on Sunday and get you something positive to compare to.
-Mike
Thanks Mike.
You may want to check the clearance on your plate grinding. It can sometimes feel just fine with only the sideplate assembled, then when fully assembled the gears get moved slightly and create a rub...and many times that feels like gears grinding.
Mo beat me to it.
I would check your grinding of the plate first.
Give a little drag with the star, just enough for the spool to rotate when cranking.
Increase drag a little at a time as you turn the handle and see it the grinding goes away when the star is fully tighten.
If so, you will need a little more cleaning of the right-side plate.
You could also have a pinion that has lots of wear, a different 113h pinion would let you know for sure.
Always check the functionality of any reel when fully assembled.
Good luck!
Sal
From just a tiny bit of drag to as tight as you can screw it down, it is the same. The main gear is not rubbing the sideplate, that was the first thing I checked. I tried another pinion, same thing.
There are a few things for you to check, start one at a time until you get it working.
One of the parts to check is the right side bushing.
Mike as mentioned above for you to check for ware on those.
The spool shaft rides in the bushing and it should feel almost snug when you test it for fitment. The inner side of the pinion rides on the outer ride of that bushing , there you will notice a little play and that is normal.
These mentioned parts make contact with the bushing weather in or out of gear. If the bushing has too much wear, the pinion will go off a little.
Out of curiosity, do you have the brass main gear or steel? While you're at it take a close look at those teeth, at times it doesn't matter if they're new.
Sal
Sal, the bushing "seems" fine, just to check it, it was my first suspect. Out of gear, the gears are fine, they run very smooth. In gear, about 3/16" of the spool shaft engages in the pinion and the flat key goes into the key recess slot in the pinion, that seems to change the alignment of the pinion and main gear, and causes the buzz. With the sideplate off the reel, I can exert slight side pressure with my fingernail on the pinion and duplicate the buzz, it does not take much. I tried putting another stainless spool from a 113 on it and it would not function, it bound and kind of jammed up. The reel's own spool functions, spins very smoothly, but the gears buzz. I am going to get a 66 Long Beach spool, and tank top frame from Ted when he gets one. The 149 main gear is steel.
I don't know how to annotate photos for this forum so I'll just give dimensions from my right-side bushing.
Right Side Bushing
I.D: 0.125"
O.D: 0.215" (with a bright chrome finish on the outer surface)
Overall Bushing Length: 0.673"
Bushing length: 0.5625" (from inside surface of hex-head to end of bushing)
113H Pinion Gear
I.D: 0.217"
O.D: 0.467" (measured across gear teeth)
Length: 0.508"
-Mike
I suggest checking to make certain your spool, pinion, and bushing are all playing well together outside the reel. To do this; put you pinion and bushing on the end of your spool shaft and make certain they spin freely and that the pinion slides back and forth with no glitches. It's rare but there's always a chance one or more of these parts is worn or defective.
If the spool, pinion, and bushing are all good; I would next check the yoke. Which yoke are you using by-the-way? There is a chance that your yoke is side-loading the pinion against the spool shaft. I would try swapping yoke if you have one laying around. I believe you'll want/need a yoke from a 113H. I don't know what I did with my original parts from my black 113 but there's a pretty good chance the "U" cut-out that the pinion gear rides in may be slightly different. It won't take much to screw up the geometry and cause issues. This would be my next logical step. There are a couple of steps I take every time I assemble a Senator with new or other than factory parts. I run a small jeweler's file around the pinion/yoke groove just to de-burr it. I also polish inside the pinion. First with sandpaper then with a Q-tip in a dremel with some metal polish. I give the same attention to the yoke (depending on if its Penn or aftermarket). I'll usually flat sand both surfaces just enough so that they are smooth and flat. I'll also sand the "U" cut-out to loosen it up a bit. A little loose is good/tight is bad. Sometimes even the yoke screw holes get a light polish.
-Mike
High Jeff, doe this reel have a coil drag spring, of flat bass drag spring, if it is flat brass, some times they slide towards the gearing, but it should also make the grinding sound, in free spool as well, good luck, cheers Don.
OK, we got it smoothed up, I took it to my friend's reel shop, he is open on weekends. First, he replaced the used gears from Scotts with brand new 149 main and 113H Pinion gears. Replaced the bushing with a new one, checked the yoke, and adjusted main gear height. Then fit a proper drag sleeve for it. He suspects that the arbor on this spool is slightly warped, which he says is common with 113's due to the fact they are thin, but Wednesday I'll be picking up a brand new Long Beach 66 stainless spool. Then I will be just waiting for Maxed Out's Tank Top. Thanks guys!
Who is Scotts?? I thought you were dealing with Scott & Mo from Mystic Reel Parts which is a Penn outlet. They don't sell used parts only new Penn parts. Unknown parts can be junk in junk out. Next time explain exactly what you are really using.
Quote from: SeaDragon on November 24, 2019, 11:25:36 PM
OK, we got it smoothed up, I took it to my friend's reel shop, he is open on weekends. First, he replaced the used gears from Scotts with brand new 149 main and 113H Pinion gears. Replaced the bushing with a new one, checked the yoke, and adjusted main gear height. Then fit a proper drag sleeve for it. He suspects that the arbor on this spool is slightly warped, which he says is common with 113's due to the fact they are thin, but Wednesday I'll be picking up a brand new Long Beach 66 stainless spool. Then I will be just waiting for Maxed Out's Tank Top. Thanks guys!
I'm glad you got it figured out.
What I enjoy the most when working on reels is the part of trying to find out what's going on and how to make it work.
Enjoy that reel and please post some pics when finished with Ted's kits and
the new spool.
Ted's kit are 3- piece vs 1-piece frame from Accurate or Tiburon,
but to me they look the best and strong enough to handle any fishing.
I have about 5 of his kits, I will be assembling them at some point.
Sal
Quote from: SeaDragon on November 24, 2019, 11:25:36 PMFirst, he replaced the used gears from Scotts with brand new 149 main and 113H Pinion gears. Replaced the bushing with a new one, checked the yoke, and adjusted main gear height. Then fit a proper drag sleeve for it.... I'll be picking up a brand new Long Beach 66 stainless spool.
So I guess we'll never know what the culprit was since he made so many changes. ::) So is the Long Beach 66 stainless spool better than the stock one? (Aside from being stainless that is.)
Quote from: nelz on November 25, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
So I guess we'll never know what the culprit was since he made so many changes. ::) So is the Long Beach 66 stainless spool better than the stock one? (Aside from being stainless that is.)
Yeah Nelz...not much to be learned here...other than just about
everything can crap up your modification! :D That 66 spool is more narrow than the stock 4/0 spool, but not by much. So little that I just kept the stock spool, but if I ran across the 66 spool cheap, I'd prolly make the change. 8)
Couldn't have been anything out of the ordinary, I've put together a few for friends with no problems.
As Rudy, I was a little confused by his explanation, I did mention to check the new main gear and was not aware that gear was used until the very end.
There are a few members that have done this conversion , all really like it.
Looks like was just a matter of having one defective part.
He got it working, so that is a good thing.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on November 25, 2019, 06:53:24 PM
He got it working, so that is a good thing.
Yes Sal...I should have said that! With the higher speed, the ol' black 4/0 is a much more versatile reel.
OK, I will try and shed a bit more light on the solution. What my reelsmith did because he was busy in his shop was just fix anything suspect. That does not narrow it down much. So, I called Mystic, told them what happened and verified that the gears were new, and they were/are so that takes the gears out of the equation. (I told him I was not calling to pick a bone, but to try and learn something) He said my reelsmith seemed very experienced, and if he was to guess, he felt that getting the right height washer under the main gear so it truly contacted and aligned with the pinion correctly was 1st important, the side plate bushing was also critical. The last thing, repacing washers on top of the drag stack to raise the height, with one drag sleeve was also a better way as it removes any slop between washers and pushes down straighter more reliably. When my guy, Dan, replaced everything he said we could do it by trial and error, but it was time-consuming and he had reels to pump out for customers. But both Dan and Mystic (I guess that is Scott) felt the main gear height was critical followed by the bushing. What I have learned is that gear height is much more critical to the smooth operation than I would have thought.