Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing => Lures => Topic started by: gstours on December 02, 2019, 11:11:27 AM



Title: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 02, 2019, 11:11:27 AM
As mentioned last week I hoped to get some more supplies to get this process and itís disappointing parts behind me.   I found some brass..062Ē dia rod and made some rings.
   Using the same flux and 4% silver content wire solder I found that the soldier flowed pretty good and tested the rings by pulling by hand and having a baggage spring scale attached to the wall.
   An example shown below.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Ron Jones on December 02, 2019, 11:13:12 AM
Nice
What weight did you test them too?
The Man


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 02, 2019, 11:21:22 AM
The results were pretty good,  consistent at least.   A total of 4 jigs had each end silver soldered twice.
    Only 1 out of the 8 tested broke at the non swiveled end?   What does that mean?
        After redoing the rings again, Iím going to test only the unbroken unswiveled rings to see what I can learn.   Thanks for your help so far 🤙😸🚣‍♀️


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Ron Jones on December 02, 2019, 11:32:54 AM
I'd say the results were great!
Not sure that there is a difference between swiveled and not swiveled, I'm sure the experts will pipe up soon.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 02, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
interesting work there Gary what is the target species for these rigs?  im looking into tuna jigs so 200# plus before failure is what I am looking for and I cant put that much pressure on anything by hand.  I suppose if I hung myself upside down by my feet from the ring I could get close, but how would I get down after?


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Hardy Boy on December 02, 2019, 01:55:31 PM
Breaking at 70 lbs is a lot of force; more that you would ever be able to put on any line with a rod and reel. Most of us never fish over 20 lbs of drag (except for the Boss who goes up to 45 or 50 with specialized rail rods). That should be more that enough to pull any butt that swims to the surface. I would be interested to see how some of the swivels, split rings and clips test against there stated ratings. I would be happy with 70 but maybe you can get it up to 100 and then you should be more than set.


Pull away:

Todd


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 02, 2019, 04:47:07 PM
  Thanks for the encouragement.  Yes the jury is out,  the consistent  results so far of these tests were to me more important than these early stages of learning to walk/run. :-\
  This is brass wire.   This was inexpensive, and fairly available to most folks.     You that need more pounds of proof before a failure have it seems like better materials available at slightly more costs.
Stainless steel in various alloys would be waay stronger in tinsel strength, and a higher silver content solder may be stronger as well.
  But i,m not there yet.   I did locate some Staysilv Black Flux and the mailman brought some approx 56% silver hard wire solder today to play with.  Now i,m not sure if the butane torch will have the btu's to do the job?   Maybe a Mapp job?  Anybody know?
   Another question is how many people trust their snaps, split rings, welded rings, knots,  etc to test them and what is the accepted testing method?     What percentage of line strength should the connecting tackle prove out to be?
  There are many variables to all this fishing stuff, ??? equipment, weather, ocean conditions, bad skippers, traveling, booking etc,  life is short.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Hardy Boy on December 02, 2019, 08:52:22 PM
I will tie up leaders , top shots, jigs with split rings, what ever and I will hook them to my vise and pull hard to test them. Obviously its it a 400 lb halibut jig harness I pull way harder than a harness for a salmon plug. I have found most failures occur right away and if they don't they will hold way more pull than you would ever put on them. Its amazing the stretch and bending you can get on the line, hooks and rings but you have to compare it to what you would put on any fish. The only way you would put over 70 lbs of pull on a jig would be if you were hand lining a halibut over the rail into the boat.................... my thoughts.


Cheers:

Todd


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: oc1 on December 02, 2019, 08:58:40 PM
Gary, show us what the broken rings look like.  I tried to do that but when the ring broke it would fly away.  Tried it three times and couldn't find any of them.
-steve


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Cor on December 02, 2019, 10:04:47 PM
This is a topic that has always made me wonder.   Sometimes I pull a fish till I expect something to break. Occasionally I straight stick to pull a Yellowtail through Kelp.  Hooks pull, light hooks sometimes open, rods break if you do stupid stuff with them, the line breaks, mainly at a terminal knot, but besides that Iíve never seen a bit of terminal tackle like a ring break.
Maybe a cheap swivel will separate because of poor manufacture.

I decided many years ago that the amount of stress on the tackle is not nearly as much as us anglers believe.
70 lb before a ring breaks, wow thatís a lot in my thinking.    Sometimes a lure gets stuck on the bottom, it is hardly possible to break the 50lb  line when you try to break or dislodge it.   Then again I don't fish for huge fish, occasionally a 150lb Tuna.

I stopped using swivels in front of my lures many year ago.   Just line to a clip or ring on to the lure.
Most guys here use 1.6mm stainless split U clips to attach lures to line and also hooks to lures.  

I use much cheaper chrome plated steel clips.    Those were the only ones available when I started fishing in 1960, never broke and I decided what was good enough then at 1/10th of the price of the modern SS devices, is good enough for me now.   The most right-hand one on the photo marked (A) I now mainly use to attach my line/lure and makes it very easy to change lures.     (B) is the cheap clip I use on my hooks.

The worst that has ever happened is a hook somehow falling of from a clip, or a clip becoming bent, but I do not remember ever losing a fish because of a ring/clip failing.  (It has probably happened)   Of course they do corrode, but that is just not a serious problem, hooks corrode faster.

I Was once given 3 Tady lures by a friend in CA, this was going to solve all my Yellowtail frustration was the promise that came with it. ;D ;D   My first thought was ďhow do you guys change the hooksĒ if they are welded on.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: oc1 on December 02, 2019, 10:50:43 PM
Seventy pounds of pull at a right angle to the rod tip should be enough to catapult someone over the rail or drag them off the cliff.
-steve


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Cor on December 02, 2019, 11:09:36 PM
Seventy pounds of pull at a right angle to the rod tip should be enough to catapult someone over the rail or drag them off the cliff.
-steve
Specially when using a very strong, 11ft or more fast action rod.    Ask me, I once took a rod like that accidentally on a boat....had to ease off on the drag as it was not possible to hold the rod when the fish went down.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 02, 2019, 11:12:38 PM
Excellant information.  My thinking was way off on the needed strength for these and I am only to happy to
Learn this.  Keep it up Gary the topic is inspiring.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 03, 2019, 08:22:11 AM
Oh yes,🧜‍♂️, I,m not done learning yet.🎣.   We all have opinions and thoughts on this terminal tackle stuff.
    I generally use 200# swivels on my halibut rigs, and have generally had a hard time breaking the 80# spectra when hung on the bottom.   This is a good way to test your gear!   My way to break free is if thetide is slack to wrap down on the line overboard with parallel wraps until you canít get more on a aluminum ball bat and then pull with both hands.   Sometimes itís difficult butt the line always breaks first never for me ,  for my fishees that are not hook shy, heavier than you need tackle is an insurance policy,  more than the weather phone 📲 app.☔️🧐


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 03, 2019, 07:15:17 PM
As per your request Iíve got a picture of a failed brass silver soldered ring.  Shown below.
  Today 4 more rings were tested and the average test in pounds when failure occurred is 47 ...
      Pulling gradually above fifty pounds by hand becomes kinda jerky....
The better way to pull the test is doing the mechanical thing.  Butt,🤔. Isnít that what we wanted after all.? ???     I tried to solder a ring with the 50+ % silver solder butt could not get enough heat from my butane torch.   Whatís poor boy 👦 to do?


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Keta on December 03, 2019, 08:31:56 PM
Use SS wire and less solder.  Melt the solder with the hot SS not the torch flame.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 03, 2019, 09:09:46 PM
56 is the lowest melting point of high silver brazing filler materiial. Even still you need temps of 1205 f minimum Between 1205-1400.  Brass melts at somewhere around 1600 f. 


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 04, 2019, 04:31:12 PM
Finding the failed rings as mentioned can be like a mistery, ka 💥 pow,  where did it go?  butt.🚣‍♀️
  The larger lesson could be learned by examining the failure.  Maybe by micro magnifying the subject?
       I will start keeping the failings and not trash them.   Approximately 25% of my test failed rings are recovered.  My testing site is impromptu and many things could be done better 💡
  Below is the same ring by phone picture twice.🧐


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 04, 2019, 04:43:52 PM
Below is the above average ring tested recently.  I couldnít pull slowly enough to break it by hand 🖐.
    Itís still brass rod/ring and fairly easy to do now.  Of course fish donít just pull in a simple controlled manner.   💥.   Butt to test with the baggage scales that records max spring pressure I wanted to keep the testing uniform as much as possible...🎥
   


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 04, 2019, 04:48:47 PM
As multiple testing is required shown below is the cheapest way I could show you some details of a process.    Others may be interested?   I just thought it would be helpful to someone.🎣


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 04, 2019, 04:58:36 PM
   Thanks for you advice Lee,  I started with sst wire rings and could not get the solder to flow.  Ive since then obtained several more fluxes as well as silver solders.  I would like to know what flux you use for sst.   also what silver content is your wire/chip solder?   What is your heat source?  These questions might help us all.  ???  Thanks for your help.   gst.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: oc1 on December 04, 2019, 06:27:32 PM
Finding the failed rings as mentioned can be like a mistery, ka 💥 pow,  where did it go?  butt

Shoot.  I guess I lied when saying the solder would be stronger than the wire.  Please accept my apology. 

If I tried it again I'd wrap a bunch of tape around the rings as they were being broken to try to slow down their flight.
-steve


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 05, 2019, 01:03:10 PM
Donít be so hasty in judging your self as I cannot yet explain why this ring broke.
    1. Was the maximum test reached for my choice of solder for a butt joint?
    2.   Could the ends of the ring benefit from chamfer increasing the area available for bonding solder?
              (Similar to the best welding practices)
    3.  Is this average in pounds of pull before failure acceptable for my fishing?
    4.   Would a lap joint be stronger and actually easier to make?
    5.   Actually itís me that should apologize as maybe I,m over thinking 🤔 this?
 I canít imagine the brass ring breaking at anywhere than at the joint.👿

   Below is a lap joint that will be tested soon.   Letís see 🤩


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: oc1 on December 05, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
A lap joint will be much stronger, but you have those two little nubs that need to be smoothed out after.
-steve


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 07, 2019, 08:12:26 AM
Just in case we could learn something from the spent/failed rings I made a masking tape flag of each one now before testing,  shown below.   These two rings I couldnít break using just my feeble pulling as they measured 80 pounds so I quit to show you.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 07, 2019, 08:17:46 AM
Following also is a lap joint testing that as presumed wood test with a higher breaking strength.  After maxing out my 100# scales and jerking as hard as possible it tested me instead!🧜‍♂️


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 07, 2019, 08:32:32 AM
Next is a newest welded ring Iíve been waiting to do.  Using a tig rod sst 308 alloy of .062 dia. A ring was bent and using the black flux shown and a 60% silver wire solder I barely had enough heat to melt it.
   I saw the solder flow finally and it looked good.  In my sorta controlled test this ring did not disappoint.
        Itís most likely the strongest Iíve made,  butt I need more heat.   Butt Christmas 🎄 is coming.🤔


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 07, 2019, 10:32:13 AM
I believe you are well on the road of success Gary.  I have been looking for a source for some of that SS wire in .062, hadn't thought of tig wire?  I think I have a coil of it coming from somewhere right now.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: jurelometer on December 07, 2019, 03:08:29 PM
I believe you are well on the road of success Gary.  I have been looking for a source for some of that SS wire in .062, hadn't thought of tig wire?  I think I have a coil of it coming from somewhere right now.

I have been using straight 316L TIG welding rod when I want tempered straight wire for my lure making.   I have been web ordering by the lb,  but have read that it can be purchased in smaller quantities if you find a local  welding supply house.  But my favorite  is the soft (annealed) 316L coils.  Easy to bend accurately into the shapes that I want, as it has no springback.  .062  tempered stainless takes a bit of force to bend.   

Don't know which type would be better for soldered rings.  I have seen both mentioned in online tutorials.  Also, 316L might be overkill for the grade.  No reason for the ring to be more corrosion resistant than the hook.

Soldering rings  is something that I don't really need to do but have wanted to try.  I am going to add this to my  project list thanks to you guys.   ( it is all your fault!  :D )

-J


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 07, 2019, 04:45:40 PM
Thanks for following my post and encouragement.  Thats why I joined the Alans Forum,  Alan is the Best and everybody here is human and civil thanks to the simple rules.  I have learned so much on this site it hard for me to imagine where i would be in this place and time so to speak having not joined and tried to contribute.  Sharing is sharing period.  No politics, we are all different in our experiences and skills and ability's.   Butt knowledge is the one thing that should not be suppressed.    Everyone here has helped in one way or another.
  My offer for a  free sample of the black hi temp flux stand for now.  I have a good shop at home butt am away currently so i,ll not buy a mapp torch while on the road, butt that is mabee it for stainless steel rings for the now.
  Dave and Dave the 308alloy sst tig rod that i just tested was purchased at a common welding supply retail store and several diameters and alloys were available in 3 feet lengths and basically sold each/per pound.   I found flux best on Amazon, and silver hard wire (45%+) on the Ebay sites.  That saying even meself can do ok in Alaska,  order n wait. ;)
  As far as my testing im limited to measuring anything more than 100 pounds pull to verify with my baggage scales.  Whe i,m home i can do come along and a 250# dairy scale.  Butt thats reserved for the stainless steel stuff as mention d before.
     Have a great Sunday.  Rain here. :-*
 
         


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 07, 2019, 04:57:56 PM
  Fishing is kinda funny,  sometimes you wonder why?  Butt once in a while you get lucky and thats when you don,t want your welded ring to fail.  Just saying.   
(https://i1344.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/002_zps9c5fhbmy.jpg) (http://s1344.photobucket.com/user/gst6814/media/002_zps9c5fhbmy.jpg.html)


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 07, 2019, 05:19:35 PM
Gary you hit your head right on the nail with those comments.  This site is absolutely unparalleled when it comes to comraderie and sharing. 
Iím starting a couple new entrees to add to my reservoir.  Soldered rings and hand carved stick baits.
Probably never would have have gone there if not for this site.
You people are awesome. Iím amazed you let me hang around this long?


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Bryan Young on December 07, 2019, 10:41:38 PM
Gary, something was bothering me about your brazed rings. I didnít realize it until now. Iíd say your wire diameter is too small. All my welded rings are sizes such that my line would break before the ring would deform. Deformation of the ring places extra pressure on the joint. What is the diameter of the rings you are using and Iíll send you some thicker rings.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: oc1 on December 08, 2019, 12:18:32 AM
I barely had enough heat to melt it.
Really nice rings Gary.  The fish are just amazing.

If you suspect your torch is not hot enough then it probably isn't.  Butane and air can only do so much.  MAPP and air is hotter but MAPP has become difficult to find.  Acetylene and air is hotter and many plumbers have it for working copper fittings.  Propane and oxygen is much hotter and perfect for soldering because you can draw either a pin-point or a soft flame.  Acetylene and oxygen is hotter still but would be an over-kill for sure.

A scarf joint may give the strength of a lap joint but look neater without burnishing.  It's easier to grind the diagonal angle on each end before soldering than it is to grind down the nubs after soldering.

For stainless I use bare leader wire because the local tackle shop (Nanko's) has it in many sizes.  It's really handy stuff for springs, pins, and other odd jobs.  The largest sizes must be for megalodon fishing or something.
-steve


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Keta on December 08, 2019, 08:18:39 AM
Here is my ring soldering set up.
Butane works with the silver solder I use.

 (https://alantani.com/gallery/30/1583_08_12_19_9_14_39.jpeg) :o


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: handi2 on December 08, 2019, 10:14:50 AM
Great job...

I lost a big Tuna to a welded ring on a new YoZuri hard bait. I only use heavy split rings now.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: David Hall on December 08, 2019, 03:26:47 PM
Great job...

I lost a big Tuna to a welded ring on a new YoZuri hard bait. I only use heavy split rings now.

Iíd love to get the chance to lose a tuna on a homemade welded ring.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 08, 2019, 05:39:42 PM
  I must admit that I have had a few failures with my tackle and been spooled to the end of the line several times,  butt i,m new to welded rings and thought it best to come here for some good ideas,  then build some stuff,  test it and share more findings and then take my chances with my quarry.  We all have bought store bought tackle and hopefully assume because we spent a lot on it and its pretty its going to catch fish.     I want to know my homade stuff is tested and that seperates my stuff from the mass produced store stuff.
     Life is short,  go fish. :(


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Dominick on December 09, 2019, 01:17:47 PM
Great job...

I lost a big Tuna to a welded ring on a new YoZuri hard bait. I only use heavy split rings now.

Iíd love to get the chance to lose a tuna on a homemade welded ring.

I'm shooting for a Baja trip in mid June if you want to try.  Dominick


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 09, 2019, 04:29:59 PM
June? ouch,  just kidding, ;)  I,ll get back to you.   Have a Great holiday season,  then we can talk.  I,m not getting any younger, butt you are! ;D


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: SoCalAngler on December 09, 2019, 10:34:30 PM
Great job...

I lost a big Tuna to a welded ring on a new YoZuri hard bait. I only use heavy split rings now.

Iíd love to get the chance to lose a tuna on a homemade welded ring.

I'm shooting for a Baja trip in mid June if you want to try.  Dominick

Dom,

See if you can swing a Mag Bay trip next year in mid to later Oct. Big tuna? Well...not so much. But, wahoo, dorado, grouper, all the marlin you can handle and some really cool inshore stuff for snook and more. Tuna is a option but not the really large stuff.

It's not Cabo and if your ok with that we should talk. I am looking to do a Mad Bay trip next year. The plan for me is to fly to Loreto and stay at my place in Puerto Escondido, 2 bedroom and 2 bath house in a gated community. Maybe spend the night there then a 2 hour shuttle to Lopez Mateo. There are several outfitters and loges in Mateo. Spend a few days there and fish a couple of them. Back to my place, maybe fish here also, then fly back home.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: boon on December 16, 2019, 10:11:50 PM
I respect the ingenuity and reasoning behind it but I couldn't bring myself to use a soldered ring that I produced myself unless I had made and broken 50 of them in a row and had all 50 break far beyond the breaking strain of the line I planned to use. The inconsistency of the process is the problem.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: gstours on December 28, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
Thanks for your thoughts mr. Boon.  I do agree with your opinion.  life is short we dont need tackle failures.  Thats why i,m here to learn fro you folks.  the line to me should be the weakest link to the fish.  Butt is this bothering to ask how many people test the store bought stuff much, or ever?   The newby may be quite egar to say at least the gear has been tested with a scale.   I have had split ring failure and generally upsize most of my terminal tackle.  Butt you with rings on the jig or lure may need a minimalmistic hardware approach.
    Thanks for your advise.   Happy New Year. ;)


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: Donnyboat on December 28, 2019, 07:45:13 PM
Yes your right on Gary, we are all learning from each other, thats why I like to have a lighter leeder to my main line, then the leeder will brake before you loose a full spool of line braid or what ever, cheers Don.


Title: Re: My findings on welded rings.
Post by: boon on December 31, 2019, 09:04:03 PM
It would be less of a potential problem if you only caught smaller fish  8). But it looks like you get some monsters up there.

I don't suppose you have a tig welder do you? My fabricator friend occasionally tig welds things in this size bracket. Personally I would be more likely to trust a truly welded ring over a brazed or soldered one.

You're quite right about putting trust in certain bits of equipment. At least if it's commercially bought and it fails I can blame someone else for the loss of the fish. If it's something I made then I only have myself to blame  :D