I have often made the statement that on conventional reels mono is a better line to cast with, it is easier, gives greater distance and not as many serious birds nests!
Subjectively most of us think that braid would be the better casting line because its thinner and lighter limper etc.
The issue with the braid is that A) it is too limp, specially so after having been in use for a few weeks, & B) it sticks to the spool and gets pulled around the spool during a cast. The latter causes the sinker/lure to get stopped instantly in flight and to break with all the consequences.
I have often looked and spent time trying to figure this out. My impression is that it jams itself between the coils. The "sticking effect" is light but very clearly visible and strong enough to pull the line around the spool.
New braid has some coating which give the line more body and reduces this effect.
- Does anyone have any understanding why the braid "sticks" to the spool in that way?
- Anyone know what they coat braid with, so I could perhaps try to replace it when its worn off? I once tried bullet lubricating wax, it made the problem worse as that stuff is sticky by itself.
;D
Hi Cor, I am not sure if it is that the braid is sticking rather than because it is so limp and soft it actually continuously cuts into the layers below and gets trapped for a split second. I have been fishing 2 multipliers with braid and it works well enough and actually found it economical as it lasts so long, till the catastrophic fluffs strike at the most inconvenient times. On a recent away trip I had a proper snap off and the line pulled in so deep I couldn't get it out. Luckily I had a back up reel with mono and got some decent fish :) I pulled of the remainder of the casting braid top shot and replaced it with mono. It took quite a bit of yanking to get it out, but the one thing I find with braid is that you don't tend to get the same effect of loops trapping each other like with mono so the overwinds usually untangle quicker. Ive tried it for a few years now and have decided I will leave the casting of braid to spinners.
Know what you're talkin bout. Indeed, it seems to worsen as the braid ages. Also, braid seems to twist more than mono. Overall it is much better for distance casting on a spinner. No solution yet, let's see what others say...
Braid needs to be spooled really tightly (approx. 10lb drag) otherwise it will dig in. When freshly spooled that's fine - but after a bit of use it obviously loosens up quite a bit that's when I've found it starts to dig in. The only answer I found is to re-spool it under tension. Spinning reels automatically do a lot of crosswinding on the retrieve, this would appear to reduce digging-in.
I mainly fly fish these days, but prior to that I would re-spool several times a season. Unless you like arm ache a power spooler is essential :)
Problem is when you are casting all day long it loosens up and you can't exactly respool while you are fishing. The harder you cast the more it likes to dig in......
Yeah. What about that 50+ yards you keep winding on as you cast repeatedly?
Longer mono topshot so the braid doesn't get used (so much) ??
I think it seems everyone agrees it digs in to itself between the strands and is a function of the braid being wound on to loosely during retrieve. I've again been looking to see what happens and how it happens but the why I cant see...... it seems to find a little space between two strands every couple of turns.
I like fishing the braid for reasons of strength and it reduces my re spooling, not sure if its economical.
The trick to casting the way I do with braid is to have a good cast control system, preferably adjustable and keep it fairly tight to keep a little tension on the line during the cast. I use a static mag which works well enough under most circumstances but at times I need to increase my casting weight which may be undesirable.
Yesterday I was fishing under difficult wind conditions, constantly changing direction and fairly gusty and the fish were far requiring hard casts with a longer rod and it was very awkward. Once you have one bad blow up, you start breaking the cast and that aggravates the situation and you lose confidence to put all your power behind it.
I probably need to go back to mono for some situations, or perhaps replace the braid more frequently.
There is no way I can lay the line on the reel tighter while retrieving a lure and certainly not with a levelwinder and braid. That would require holding the braid between my fingers, which are wet and will bleed within 20 minute....LOL
I have found the best solution is to match your braid's diameter to what mono your reel was designed for. For example...50lb. braid is an equivalent diameter to 12lb. mono. Forget about the "strength" factor being so high, it's that diameter you want to match. So many folks sub out 12lb. braid for 12lb. mono, and that's where the trouble begins. 8)
I don't use braid for going long, but I've had Fusion on an Abu for years and it does well or bass casting and jigging and would probably do well enough out to 50 yards or so. It's pretty smooth and doesn't backlash too easily- what I found is that for me personally, I don't want to cast anything less than diameter of 10lb mono- which is 50 lb braid. That can tear up the internals on a baitcaster during a hookset if your drag gets moved bouncing around in the boat so you have to pay attention- setting a hook with strectchy mono for decades is not an easily undone muscle memory.
Braid works great Carolina rigging for bass, flounder, etc.
My 0.02.
John
exactly what Mike said..
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on January 07, 2020, 02:41:52 PM
Longer mono topshot so the braid doesn't get used (so much) ??
I actually use 40mt 80lb braid as topshot, a short 80lb mono leader, and 50lb braid mainline.
I experimented with braid for a number of years and used to load 100mt 0.52mm mono (topshot) on top of 0.3 mm braid. What happened was that I would cast out the mono, and then the reel would be on its last few turns when it got to the braid, and bang! The reason for that was largely the fact that you use a different casting style with mono with loose coils on the spool, great for mono but deadly for braid.
Quote from: mo65 on January 07, 2020, 03:03:11 PM
I have found the best solution is to match your braid's diameter to what mono your reel was designed for. For example...50lb. braid is an equivalent diameter to 12lb. mono. Forget about the "strength" factor being so high, it's that diameter you want to match. So many folks sub out 12lb. braid for 12lb. mono, and that's where the trouble begins. 8)
That crossed my mind, but as I am already using 80 lb, I wonder what 0.52mm braid will pull, maybe 200lb could tow the boat on my line. ;D
Part of this problem is that I constantly cast, or try to cast accurately at a moving target which is sometimes far. Even though I don't believe braid would be a number one choice for multipliers, if you make deliberate careful casts, it will work fine.
moving target at distance- yep that's a challenge with that set up.
You just have to assume that every time there is some extra tension on the line it is going to dig in. It is not a problem as long as the tension is uniform. It can be packed on really tight or wound on loose and everything will still be fine as long as the tension is uniform.
If I have to pull a snag free I try to pull the line by hand (grabbing it between the reel and striper guide) rather than letting it dig into the spool. After catching a fish I have to slowly increase the length of each successive cast until the line stops sticking.
Despite the aggravation, I would never even consider going back to mono. With braid, you can do the same job with a much smaller and lighter reel. A small and light weight spool will always cast better than a heavy spool.
-steve
Here is the type of stuff I cast at, this one is close, maybe 40 mt away!
Photo taken by my good friend Barrie, keen angler and Nature photographer, who has since passed on.
Oh cool! Great photo. You can really see the Yellow in the tails.
A less expensive but more time consuming option to old braid might be to reverse the ends.
Opps, add-on: you'ed have ta spool the old side of the braid onto another reel that you're gonna use, to end up with the good side, on the outside a the spool.
That's a really neat photo Cor.
-steve
It is indeed a horrible sound and feeling when that braid digs in the reel, snaps and the lure cartwheels off into the distance, never to be seen again...
I appreciate the benefits of both braid and mono and to mitigate their respective drawbacks, have resolved to go with braid on one reel and mono topshot on the other:
* Mono for distance, blind-casting grunt work or gusty conditions
* Braid for sightcasting and /or heavy close-in action.
What a fantastic pic, knee-wobbling stuff if your lure is pulled in front of them and they are turned on! That is if it is not on a busy day, where the likelihood is that a barrage of iron would rain down and the shoal would sound and scatter with possibly only one or two hook-ups... >:(
Keep drip-feeding us those wonderful pictures! ;)
Quote from: Leerie18 on January 08, 2020, 10:51:52 AM
.........
Keep drip-feeding us those wonderful pictures! ;)
Most fishing spots will become overrun with people!
hey Cor, I've been casting with braid since few years and I know what you mean, but can I ask what reel are you using and what pound test of braid are you having problems with?
I dont use anything smaller than 50# braid, mostly 65#, 80# and 100#, but not because I really need those strong lines but for what Mo just said, because of the more friendly diameter and corrosion resistance for rocky bottoms.
try to find braid lines of 8 strands that are marketed as round lines instead of flat ones, on small baitcasters and casting reels that I use to cast lures as the komodo 364 Im using 80# braid, on a saltist 20h Im using 50# braid (but thinking to change it for 65#), trinidad 16 has 65# line, okuma solterra 10 with 80#, on okuma komodo and saltist 20H I normally cast 3/4oz lures to 2oz lures, from 3oz, 4oz and heavier lures I switch to trinidad and solterra 10slx.
my abu garcia 6500 c3 and abu record 60 have 50# braid.
I have not tried this yet but I have heard that getting the braid wet before casting is recommended. Anyone know what that's about?
Quote from: steelfish on January 08, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
hey Cor, I've been casting with braid since few years and I know what you mean, but can I ask what reel are you using and what pound test of braid are you having problems with?
I dont use anything smaller than 50# braid, mostly 65#, 80# and 100#, but not because I really need those strong lines but for what Mo just said, because of the more friendly diameter and corrosion resistance for rocky bottoms.
try to find braid lines of 8 strands that are marketed as round lines instead of flat ones, on small baitcasters and casting reels that I use to cast lures as the komodo 364 Im using 80# braid, on a saltist 20h Im using 40# braid (but thinking to change it for 65#), trinidad 16 has 65# line, okuma solterra 10 with 80#, on okuma komodo and saltist 20H I normally cast 3/4oz lures to 2oz lures, from 3oz, 4oz and heavier lures I switch to trinidad and solterra 10slx.
my abu garcia 6500 c3 and abu record 60 have 50# braid.
Sure you may ask!
Above I explain what line I use https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30189.msg351021#msg351021 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30189.msg351021#msg351021)
I spool this on Shimano Tranx 500HG, levelwinder that has a static mag.
There are many good comments and ideas here and I'll still go through the lot and then probably experiment to see if a solution is not to be found.
I somehow don't think going stronger then 80lb is a good idea, how do I ever break it off the bottom if I need to....mimmm? Maybe that is not a problem, I'll see.
I have also used braid on "full size reels" mainly 40 and 50 wide Daiwas and Shimano's and had the same experience. Even with 100mt mono topshot the braid became a problem. For some time I tried JB 80lb hollow but that had a similar problem and a lot more because I was using a reel without a good cast control and I then decided that braid on conventional reels definitely did not work. I now know it can work under certain circumstances, but remains problematic.
Today I went fishing for squid, they are small squid and I probably need no more then 20lb line, but use 50 lb braid on a ABU GARCIA 6600C4 and an extremely light stick. Interestingly when dropping the jigs to the bottom with the reel in freespool, I noticed the braid constantly sticking to the reel and actually stopping the decent every now and again with a "jerk"
I cast 2 to 4 oz but 4 is too heavy for my current rig, but sometimes wind conditions necessitate that.
Quote from: David Hall on January 08, 2020, 06:20:14 PM
I have not tried this yet but I have heard that getting the braid wet before casting is recommended. Anyone know what that's about?
Yes, I have experienced that as well, why I dunno?
I will eventually write some kind of summary or conclusion for those who have an interest in this.
I'll give it a shot -- two points un/less-mentioned:
1) PE line just tends to have more uneven surface & catch on itself more
braid isn't smooth like mono -- it has "micro-ridges" (if it's some non-braided PE variant,
it's still not a single filament & gets hairy much quicker than braid, achieving the same "rough" effect)
in simplest terms, mono "wants to come off the spool" because of the stiffness & stretch,
while, braid "wants to stay on the spool" because of the rougher surface & digging in
2) nylon absorbs water straight into the single filament, itself, in a steady/even/progressive/predictable manner
contrarily, PE carries much more water on the surface and/or temporarily trapped in the braiding;
different sections may get differently water-logged/shed (hence, heavier/lighter) at different times; AND
surface water on the line may act as a lubricant OR weak adhesive, depending on situation
your decades of experience w/ nylon mono created a complex algorithm in the back of your brain,
that tells you how your line will behave, without conscious thought (kinda' like driving on "brain auto-pilot")
give braid the same number of decades you gave mono & it will be equally trouble-free 8)
Okay,
A few findings by myself then casting braided lines.
Wound tight is right when spooling. But, on the other hand if the braid was spooled correctly from the start the issue is not coming from the braid digging into it's self. If you have ever seen a reel locked up because of the braid digging into the other braid on the spool you would have to notice that it doesn't happen in the first several layers of line. This occurs deep into the braid, most often depending on the spools size about 1/4 to 1/2 of the spools depth or more.
Braid "sticking" to the spool really does not happen unless you get some sort of material that attaches to the braid. Jellyfish and other such soft skinned animals like some types of plankton and such can leave a residue or parts of their body attached to the line. But this stickiness will happen to mono lines also. This can and most often will make either line stick to it's self once the line dries.
Most if not all of the "stickiness" I have found comes from two things. First, when the braided lines dry salt crystals develop between the layers of line. Wetting the spool really does not help here because the modern braids do not absorb water, so only the first layers get wet leaving the lower layers still dry. Second, and I feel is the most common problem is that the braid under pressure pinches it's self. More times than not I get the "stickiness" after I have caught a fish under drag pressure and not when just casting out and reeling in. To me I know the braid pinches it's self more when winding in under load. Much more so than just winding in a lure or bait.
99% of the fishing I do is from a boat, much different than land based guys, so I can only relate my observations. Every time I head out on a boat I make sure I let line out then motoring to the grounds further than I can cast, be it mono or braid. Mono will become softer and limper because it absorbs water, the braid will not have the stickiness for my casts, because the salt and pinched line has been taken care of before my first cast. Sorry land based guys you will have to figure something else out.
Okay, coated braid. Most braided lines that are coated is for one reason and one reason only, they don't want to show the "fuzz" and broken filaments on their line. There is no reason to coat a braided line. So why do some manufactures do it? Better for the line? Nope. Better for the reel? Nope. Makes the braid last longer? Nope. IMO it is to sell a lesser line at a higher cost. Also the coating should make the line less "sticky" than more.
I have always been a proponent of long topshots for reels I cast often and my braid days started way before Izorline came out with their line of braid. Remember SpiderWire? I got my first braided line cut from those guys. My braid use has been much longer than I have been coming to this website. I have been using it about around 20 years now. But, with that said do what works for you.
Quote from: philaroman on January 09, 2020, 05:16:28 AM
I'll give it a shot -- two points un/less-mentioned:
1) PE line just tends to have more uneven surface & catch on itself more
braid isn't smooth like mono -- it has "micro-ridges" (if it's some non-braided PE variant,
it's still not a single filament & gets hairy much quicker than braid, achieving the same "rough" effect)
in simplest terms, mono "wants to come off the spool" because of the stiffness & stretch,
while, braid "wants to stay on the spool" because of the rougher surface & digging in
2) nylon absorbs water straight into the single filament, itself, in a steady/even/progressive/predictable manner
contrarily, PE carries much more water on the surface and/or temporarily trapped in the braiding;
different sections may get differently water-logged/shed (hence, heavier/lighter) at different times; AND
surface water on the line may act as a lubricant OR weak adhesive, depending on situation
your decades of experience w/ nylon mono created a complex algorithm in the back of your brain,
that tells you how your line will behave, without conscious thought (kinda' like driving on "brain auto-pilot")
give braid the same number of decades you gave mono & it will be equally trouble-free 8)
Nicely put, I don't always have the way with words.
I never considered that mono also absorbs water, does this also apply to the various composite mono's?
"mono wants to come off the spool" because of the stiffness & stretch," That is precisely why mono is the better casting line and off course after so many year of use we know how to handle it.
"PE carries much more water on the surface and/or temporarily trapped in the braiding;
different sections may get differently water-logged/shed (hence, heavier/lighter) at different times; AND
surface water on the line may act as a lubricant"The lubricating effect of water on mono is well known. In dry hot windy conditions some guys wet their fingers before casting otherwise friction will burn the line. I have noticed that braid also likes to be wet, it somehow casts a bit better, but also for the same issue as mono, friction will burn or melt uncoated PE, more so then mono as it has a lower melting point.
SoCalAngler uses the words "pinched line" which is probably a more appropriate description of what I called "Sticky" It's not sticky like jam. ;) It is only a very light effect, but enough to cause a serious blow up. I'll see if I can illustrate it with a video.
I reckon it is just pretty unforgiving to the way it is wound on to the reel. If there is not enough tension it digs into the layers below that are not tightly spooled. It is difficult to spool it evenly and tight all day long. When you do even slightly fluff the cast there is a much higher chance of it digging in than mono because it is so soft. Mono is just way more forgiving. It is also possible that braid comes of a conventional reel slightly differently than mono? Mono has some memory and so a slight coil unrolls from the reel always, where as braid runs of very directly. If the spool is not spinning fast enough, it will dig in, where as the mono has that added coil as shock absorber. Every time you thumb the spool a bit too much there is a greater risk of the braid biting in too deep. Sorry I am struggling to explain myself, not sure if this is making any sense.
None of this is a problem on a spinning reel as the line leaves the spool totally different. The rod guide setup on a spinning reel is important though and also the use of leaders.
For distance casting, you are surely going to continue to have problems using a conventional over a spinning reel - why not just accept that it is generally unsuitable, and change reels. The rock and surf fraternity have embraced 'grinder and braid' over the last few years in southern Africa, and it has done wonders for the sport. Sure there is a need for a specifically designed rod, but the same applies in reverse.
The technology and strength of spinning reels has come on in leaps and bounds, and now they can be used in virtually every situation. In the UK surf scene, there used to be a huge 'snobbery' aspect about folks not mastering conventional reels, but that has since dissolved with the much better spinning reels and use of braid - distances are now pretty much equal or better with braid.
Quote from: Jeri on January 09, 2020, 07:00:21 AM
For distance casting, you are surely going to continue to have problems using a conventional over a spinning reel - why not just accept that it is generally unsuitable, and change reels. The rock and surf fraternity have embraced 'grinder and braid' over the last few years in southern Africa, and it has done wonders for the sport. Sure there is a need for a specifically designed rod, but the same applies in reverse.
The technology and strength of spinning reels has come on in leaps and bounds, and now they can be used in virtually every situation. In the UK surf scene, there used to be a huge 'snobbery' aspect about folks not mastering conventional reels, but that has since dissolved with the much better spinning reels and use of braid - distances are now pretty much equal or better with braid.
Yeah Jeri, I hear you but I am not going to change over to a whole new technology where I am at a stage in my life where I actually want to get rid of tackle, not acquire more stuff.
Spinning reels have disadvantages as well, but let's leave that for another thread, or maybe when I visit for some coffee one day :)
Quote from: Cor on January 09, 2020, 07:08:24 AM
Yeah Jeri, I hear you but I am not going to change over to a whole new technology where I am at a stage in my life where I actually want to get rid of tackle, not acquire more stuff.
Spinning reels have disadvantages as well, but let's leave that for another thread, or maybe when I visit for some coffee one day :)
It is just not logical that to persevere with a system that is not working because of the very nature of the braid, that you should discount change. We have folks here casting with slim braids with 'spinning' rods and small lures in the 2-3oz range to well over 120 metres - would solve all your problems at a stroke.
But as you say, a divergence from your thread.
The kettle is on for coffee .............. :)
Quote from: Jeri on January 09, 2020, 07:34:28 AM
We have folks here casting with slim braids with 'spinning' rods and small lures in the 2-3oz range to well over 120 metres -
I have never cast anything 120 meters in my life. But right now I want to cast 1/8 to 3/16 oz jigs and was willing to switch to spinning gear for more distance. However, the spinner did not get more distance than a sixty year old conventional reel; both with the same 10 ft blank and both with 10 to 20 lb Spectra.
-steve
Steve, I don't think that you can compare the casting preformance of conventional reels with spinning reels on the same rod. For one thing the spine of the rod is opposite for the two reels. Also the optimum size of the guides and spacing is different between the two different reels. I think you are comparing an apple to an orange even though they are both fruits. Rudy
Here at the East coast many still use mono, I'm one of them.
I have tried braid, got much better distance, but most times the knot failed.
I tried different knots and also glue, helped, but still failed.
A heavier leader helped a lot, but I didn't like using it,
40 would be the most I would like for sime type of fishing I do.
Sal
Quote from: Jeri on January 09, 2020, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: Cor on January 09, 2020, 07:08:24 AM
Yeah Jeri, I hear you but I am not going to change over to a whole new technology where I am at a stage in my life where I actually want to get rid of tackle, not acquire more stuff.
Spinning reels have disadvantages as well, but let's leave that for another thread, or maybe when I visit for some coffee one day :)
It is just not logical that to persevere with a system that is not working because of the very nature of the braid, that you should discount change. We have folks here casting with slim braids with 'spinning' rods and small lures in the 2-3oz range to well over 120 metres - would solve all your problems at a stroke.
But as you say, a divergence from your thread.
The kettle is on for coffee .............. :)
That is not really correct. I switched to braid about 4 years ago and prior to that I did many experiments and at that point decided braid does not work for the type of fishing I do. However round 2010 I started magging my reels and decided that it makes casting easier, especially quick casting after fish and sacrificed very little distance. I then again experimented with braid and made it work, and I can tell you it does work and you do not lose much distance because of the mags and what you do lose is well compensated for by the reliability you gain.
A good cast control is essential for using braid, you need to remove any slack in the line during cast otherwise disaster strikes. The reels I use don't lend themselves to a variable system which will probably make it perfect.
I do agree that Spinners, with the right setup and a competent caster can outcast me by as much as 20 mt, but I have no intention to change. Most times distance is not that important to me, when it is I fetch another reel loaded with mono. Many don't out cast me, having one type of reel is complicated enough to understand these days, as bad as Windows 10
So I have now used braid for nearly 5 years and I dare say that in totality I have had far less casting issues then the average other good caster and have generally been very happy with my braid.
What brought this thread about is that I have been fishing at different spots to my usual and the wind has been much more variable. If you are suddenly faced with wind in your face, even light and you don't notice you have a problem because your lure slows down in the air and the spool does not get slowed down adequately by the cast control, which should then be adjusted slightly. I have also used a different rod at times, which requires a different casting style.
Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other. I dont have the answer, but could see what is happening. I had 4 different lines. On one reel, 40 lb Suffix 832 which was fairly new and smooth, 50lb Suffix 832 and anolder section of the same, and some 80lb Powerpro which was very worn and furry in the front 10 mt. The first photo is 40 lb Suffix 832 on an ABU GARCIA 6600C4 and the second is 80lb Powerpro on a SHIMANO TRANX 500HG.
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.
I have some other stuff to do today as well ;D ;D
I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense. Might give that a try and see if that helps.
I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.
Quote from: Swami805 on January 09, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense. Might give that a try and see if that helps.
I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.
Is a good thought. Or spread the line across the spool zig zag much quicker then normal.
Mimmmmm..... problem is I use levelwinders.
After reading this post from mr. Cor the thought struck me again of a possible solution that could be on a casting reel that you cannot buy. ???
A casting reel with a more agressive levelwind layering ratio, AND a disingaging or, freefloating levelwind bar that allows the line to seek its own outgoing path ....?? The slightly more crossing over itself braid may not dig into the sistered line as its sorta crossing over it more like a spinning reel? Just my 2 cents. ;)
Casting into the wind reminds me why I gave up flyfishing on the beach on nice mornings. Darn wind. >:(
Cor,
I have lived with the issue your picture describes for several decades, originally with mono and later with braid. It is much more difficult to not allow the issue with braid. What is happening is loss of tension, either during the cast, during the retrieve or both. Braid is small and likes to "bury" itself under layers of line on the spool if the line is not tight enough to prevent it. Braid's small diameter means it takes more attention to line tension during the initial spool loading, the cast and the retrieve to prevent the issue.
This is one of my issues with adjustable cast control. If your cast control is adjusted for a particular environment and that environment changes unexpectedly from wind or current shift, you will experience difficulty until you figure out what your new cast control setting should be. Better, I think, to evaluate what, if anything, has changed and adjust your casting style to suit the new conditions.
The only thing I can recommend is to spend more cognitive resources ensuring that the braid is never put on the spool loose or allowed to loosen excessively during the cast.
The Man
Quote from: Cor on January 09, 2020, 12:05:26 PM
Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other.
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.
I have some other stuff to do today as well ;D ;D
WOW, How do you managed to get the line so evenly lined up? looks like lined up by a machine!!
if you check my reels you will see the braided line lined up with no pattern at all, a bump here, a deep valley here, criss-cross here, etc, maybe that helps to do have the line to dig on the lower layers since there is a bunch of line crossing by everywhere.
basically just what my compadre Sheridan just say, to guide the line more pendendicular to the spool edge while cranking the reel for few turns, then try to guide the line more evenly (like yours) and if possible the last crancks guide the line again on a cris cross pattern, looks like difficult but I think I do it on "automatic" when retrieving line from deep drops or long casts
Quote from: Cor on January 09, 2020, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: Swami805 on January 09, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense. Might give that a try and see if that helps.
I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.
Is a good thought. Or spread the line across the spool zig zag much quicker then normal.
Mimmmmm..... problem is I use levelwinders.
Quote from: gstours on January 09, 2020, 04:52:17 PM
After reading this post from mr. Cor the thought struck me again of a possible solution that could be on a casting reel that you cannot buy. ???
A casting reel with a more agressive levelwind layering ratio, AND a disingaging or, freefloating levelwind bar that allows the line to seek its own outgoing path ....?? The slightly more crossing over itself braid may not dig into the sistered line as its sorta crossing over it more like a spinning reel? Just my 2 cents. ;)
Casting into the wind reminds me why I gave up flyfishing on the beach on nice mornings. Darn wind. >:(
After reading Swami805's post It seemed like a possible solution and went to do a little test. Using my ABU GARCIA 6600C4 I laid the line on the spool by hand by not threading it through the levelwind. My plan was to criss cross it fairly aggressively as it seems obvious that the line could then not fill little gaps and then not dig in and get stuck.
Haha, I could not force it to go where I wanted it to. It follows the natural lay of the line on the reel, then makes a "jump" in the direction I was trying to force it and then once again follows the lay of the line. I tried about 50 mt but could not do it. It also made the line more bulky on the spool and I would need to remove some line if I wanted to pursue this. Maybe there is a way?
Perhaps a much wider spool will make it possible.
I repeated this exercise later today, using the Tranx with 80lb braid. I removed the reel from the rod which I think made this experiment easier. I was able to criss cross the line much more effectively on this reel. I don't know if it's the line or the reel? The effect was very interesting, firstly the reel will take a lot less line if you do this, but secondly, as suggested, i
t reduced the binding effect of the line and produced much less jamming of the braid by probably 2/3rds, which is significant!I've done nothing else but fiddle with reels and line today....LOL :) :)
Quote from: steelfish on January 09, 2020, 07:20:24 PM
Quote from: Cor on January 09, 2020, 12:05:26 PM
Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other.
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.
I have some other stuff to do today as well ;D ;D
WOW, How do you managed to get the line so evenly lined up? looks like lined up by a machine!!
if you check my reels you will see the braided line lined up with no pattern at all, a bump here, a deep valley here, criss-cross here, etc, maybe that helps to do have the line to dig on the lower layers since there is a bunch of line crossing by everywhere.
basically just what my compadre Sheridan just say, to guide the line more pendendicular to the spool edge while cranking the reel for few turns, then try to guide the line more evenly (like yours) and if possible the last crancks guide the line again on a cris cross pattern, looks like difficult but I think I do it on "automatic" when retrieving line from deep drops or long casts
Levelwinder on both reels.
See comment above https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30189.msg351186#msg351186
It seems actually possible that a level winder aggravates this problem?? And so more and more ideas and thoughts come to the fore.
Afterthought, I did many years ago try an ordinary 40 and/or 50 wide reel with braid and quickly concluded it does not work. Various different reasons but one was that my fingers quickly started to bleed from line cuts as you lay the line on the spool with your finger. I often cast constantly, 100 per minute and with wet fingers you get cut to bits by braid, even JB hollow which is fairly flat and smooth did that.
Quote from: RowdyW on January 09, 2020, 10:40:20 AM
Steve, I don't think that you can compare the casting preformance of conventional reels with spinning reels on the same rod. For one thing the spine of the rod is opposite for the two reels. Also the optimum size of the guides and spacing is different between the two different reels. I think you are comparing an apple to an orange even though they are both fruits. Rudy
Rudy, they are two identical fly rod blanks. One is built as a spinning rod and the other built as a baitcasting (conventional) rod. I understand the difference.
If you're paying attention, you should know when there is extra tension being paced on the line which will likely lead to problems on the next cast. You can strip off a few yards by hand to un-stick it before winding on more line, or you can take it easy on the next cast to compensate.
I don't usually bother putting in adjustable magnets and have them fixed in place with screws or glue. The number of stacked magnet wafers is then tuned to the rod, reel, lure weight and wind. I want it to be thumb free casting across the wind or with no wind. The same setting will be good for down wind but won't work for up wind. Up wind I have to make a conscious effort to use some thumb pressure.
Some time ago, Lee (Keta) provided information from Jerry Brown. JB said to wind his braid on closely without a lot of back-and-forth layering. I thought that was strange advice because of the issue we're discussing here. But, he's the expert.
Synchronous levelwind mechanisms are going to cost you a lot of distance. Disengaging levelwind mechanisms will cost you less distance, but still have a cost. I don't use either any more. I've tried the aggressive back-and-forth manual levelwinding but it did not seem to help and required a lot of concentration. After a while, you can just let muscle memory take care of the manual levelwinding.
-steve
I think you folks are homing in on the problem.
My experience is that the most problematic situation comes from working a lure that causes a loss of tension, like working a popper with a big rod swing, or Japanese style slow pitch jigging. Now combine this with some high tension after a hookup. This happens to me when working lures for yellowtail with the drag buttoned down.
The line digs in because it is limp and of a small diameter. After digging in, the slack is taken out from the loose wraps that are now on top of the new coil. A more aggressive crossing pattern helps, but the biggest improvement is switching to a larger diameter braid.
I haven't had much of a problem with my Okuma Komodo levelwind, but it is much tougher using a similar sized non- levelwind reel with a magnet . My bigger conventional casting reels stick pretty bad with 50 lb. braid, but sometimes this is a worthwhile tradeoff, as 50 lb braid works nice for working lures deep in current.
I disagree with the comments about issues from water absortion, salt crystals, stiff mono lines casting farther, the uniform superiority of spinning reels over conventional, etc., but will avoid commenting further in order to not hijack the thread like I usually do :)
-J
Cor,
Thanks for the pics of the line coming off the spool this shows more than one may think.
In pic #1 that line looks jammed to me. I'm not really a betting man but I will give 3 to 1 odds that reel/spool has a underwrap. The braid has not dug deep into the spool before it got stuck right? If in fact that is the problem then this it is not a braid issue? A underwrap can only happen when spooling, attaching a new hook or lure, or when rigging your reel to fish. I've had this happen and it was due to me, a user error.
Pic #2 looks like most that use braid. Meaning the first several layers are packed looser due to casting and what not and the more packed layers underneath don't let the braid to dig in. I may be wrong in looking at your pics and if I am I'm sorry.
Still I think pic 1 is due to a underwrap.
Casting and the line pinching is a problem, I fully understand that, but it is easily controlled by a longer topshot than yourself or I can cast. Pretty simple in my mind.
My use of braided lines is due to using smaller reels with the cranking power, stopping power and ability to handle larger fish
I like the input of guys saying they have been using braided lines for a few years. What really matters to me is if they try to fix a issue or just live with it?
I'll get back to this in a few days time. I've gathered a fair number of ideas about it but one problem is the very different ways in which many of us fish. If I make light casts of say 50yds this will never be a problem, but when you lean into it, it leads to breakage of tackle because you are stopping a lure of 3 1/2 oz in full flight, using line with near zero elasticity.
I cast about 90 yds and retrieve using a level winder, sometimes for a number of hours with a few breaks. I catch an occasional fish which will result in the line being wound up very much tighter than usual, but that happens relatively little :'( compared with the casts I make and I am aware of that problem. I don't bother much with spooling the line as after my first cast, that is all history.
Because of the pull from the water, waves, wind the line is laid on the spool with varying tension and not controllable under those circumstances. The lure will sometimes jump of the top of a wave in to the trough of another. Sometimes I sink my lure and wind it up fast. I vary my retrieve rate (speed) and so on. So the tension on the line will change constantly from near zero when the lure becomes airborne to when you again get a pull on it. Personally I think these things will contribute to the problem but, that is not the main cause. I say this because I've tried yesterday to lay the line on the reel using nice equal pressure, I then pulled it off, fast and very/or slowly and in both situations it did lightly jam to the spool, the one photo was taken at that time.
Something else I need to check,...... when making a hard cast, there is probably significant force/pull on the line the moment before release, this could pull the line ento the strands below, but then it would cause an immediate problem, not after 1 second.
This is actually very difficult to explain all, because how tight is jammed? Not very tight at all less, then one 1/4 oz pull and release it, but that is enough to pull the line around the reel and cause a big blow up.
How often does that happen? Not often at all, but the consequences are so serious that once per day is too much to live with.
Again my thanks to all for the ideas, please keep them coming.
Overwinds tend to occur for me nearly always at the same time in the cast, I suspect it is when the sinker or lure reaches max speed. With reels spooled with braid only, I find that the overwind has very little of the big loops that form in mono, the ones that wrap over each other and you have to dig out to get the mainline out. One such loop though is enough to make the braid dig in really deep followed by the familiar cracking sound >:( With mono a minor overrun like that is not serious and it just runs itself out. I generally don't get overwinds in mono or braid that looks like a monster birds nest often shown on photos. Its the softness of the braid and the no stretch that causes this nonsense to happen. Even if you use braid for backing this can happen when a fish takes a long run. When it first became popular all the shark anglers started using it as backing but there were many mishaps of big fish running far, drags cranked up and the bang, braid gets snagged. Some people went to the extremes of spooling their braid backing with lathes resulting in cracked spools.
Quote from: Cor on January 10, 2020, 07:40:39 AM
I'll get back to this in a few days time. I've gathered a fair number of ideas about it but one problem is the very different ways in which many of us fish. If I make light casts of say 50yds this will never be a problem, but when you lean into it, it leads to breakage of tackle because you are stopping a lure of 3 1/2 oz in full flight, using line with near zero elasticity.
I cast about 90 yds and retrieve using a level winder, sometimes for a number of hours with a few breaks. I catch an occasional fish which will result in the line being wound up very much tighter than usual, but that happens relatively little :'( compared with the casts I make and I am aware of that problem. I don't bother much with spooling the line as after my first cast, that is all history.
Because of the pull from the water, waves, wind the line is laid on the spool with varying tension and not controllable under those circumstances. The lure will sometimes jump of the top of a wave in to the trough of another. Sometimes I sink my lure and wind it up fast. I vary my retrieve rate (speed) and so on. So the tension on the line will change constantly from near zero when the lure becomes airborne to when you again get a pull on it. Personally I think these things will contribute to the problem but, that is not the main cause. I say this because I've tried yesterday to lay the line on the reel using nice equal pressure, I then pulled it off, fast and very/or slowly and in both situations it did ightly jam to the spool, the one photo was taken at that time.
Something else I need to check,...... when making a hard cast, there is probably significant force/pull on the line the moment before release, this could pull the line ento the strands below, but then it would cause an immediate problem, not after 1 second.
This is actually very difficult to explain all, because how tight is jammed? Not very tight at all less, then one 1/4 oz pull and release it, but that is enough to pull the line around the reel and cause a big blow up.
How often does that happen? Not often at all, but the consequences are so serious that once per day is too much to live with.
Again my thanks to all for the ideas, please keep them coming.
The coil that gets jammed the worst may not be the top coil. As I mentioned before, loose coils get pulled tight above the dug in coil. These can make their own jam. On an early breakoff on a cast, the jam is probably forming right at casting time. As the cast is bringing the spool up to speed, the pull from a heavy lure can start causing the line to dig in. Once it gets started, the process mentioned above takes over, and the top coils cinch down and lock the dug in line before it can leave the spool. A breakoff later in the cast can be caused when a previously dug in coil is able to rotate past the centerline (the line is not so tight toward the end of the cast)this casues a sudden change in direction of the spool when the line comes tight. I have ample experience losing lures both ways :)
I have had some success developing a softer casting stroke without loosing too much distance, but it is not a natural stroke for me. Folks that do a lot of casting with unweighted live baits have an advantage here.
Pinching the line during the retrieve to provide some tension helps significantly, but is tedious and it is difficult when using any kind of rod motion. I have thought about designing some sort of pinching device with felt pads that would be engaged after the cast, but could not come up with a shape/placement that was convenient to enable, but still did not get in the way when casting.
Looking forward to hearing what you come up with.
-J
Thanks jurelometer
No doubt the way you cast has a significant effect. You need to keep the line as tight as possible without causing drag. So slow down the spool is one side but the other side is a heavier casting weight and casting in a way that avoids slack line as much as possible. By casting higher you create more slack in the line which is good for mono but fatal for braid. If you cast directly towards the target you keep the line tight, but lose some distance. If its an option cast with the wind from your side or slightly behind.
If you "pinch" the line which I sometimes do inadvertently as a habit from fishing with mono, the line will cut your wet fingers within 1/2 an hours casting.
LOL, I am looking forward to that myself. The solution is actually in the hands of the braid manufacturers, make braid for spinners and for conventionals! For the latter add some stiffer fibers, tighten the weave to make the braid firmer, rounder with more body, for conventionals the diameter is not critical. Stop marketing it as very limp!
I have enjoyed this thread. My own fishing is strictly freshwater baitcasting with vintage narrow spool reels and rods from the 1940's and 1950's. When I first encountered spectra braids some years ago I immediately experienced the problem of line knifing down into the spooled line. This same problem to a lesser degree occurred when braided Dacron (Cortland Micron) first appeared in my world around 1970. I have solved the problem to my satisfaction by filling the spool if it has a metal or plastic arbor with Mono or should it have a balsa or cork arbor with vintage braided Nylon. These both create a very hard base. On top of this base, I spool what I consider about a "cast and a half" of spectra (I prefer Fusion even though it is no longer made). The braid, in this case, casts like a dream and the small diameter and added strength gives me confidence when playing a large Bass or Bowfin in the heavy weeds which my situation also presents. I am using softer action vintage glass rods so the no-stretch qualities of the braid give me more positive hook sets. It has proven to be a very satisfactory solution for me for several years now.
I'll just add my experiences to the thread.
- Yep, braid buries itself and that makes casting challenging, technique and fresh water on the spool are the only things that have made a difference for me. Wet braid has been easier to keep the line tight on the spool for me, but then I found that a medium tightness worked OK for me, and the only time buried line cast issues came up was after fighting a heavy fish or yanking your rig out of a snag. If I did a practice cast afterwards and re-laid the line on the spool to a proper tension, the next cast was fine.
- The biggest problem I had was snapping off rigs on cast ascents due to birds nest from loading up too much and thumb mistakes. Braid has no give and with mono there's a little give, you can still snap off mono, but braid requires faster reflexes and a more educated thumb.
- I hadn't found any advantages to stiffer braid or coatings and adapted my technique to line that was slightly broken in and limp. The first few casts with new line were usually the trickiest.
*I was mainly using 40-60 lb sufix 832 or Daiwa J-8 strand on an Avet sxj mc with 10ft Daiwa Emcast surf rod casting 30-80 yds in rocky areas. Lost a lot of rigs to the rocks, and yardage of braid each time you trim off the frayed line when you re-rig. Part of the game.
All that said, I found braid to be more efficient at getting fish in, (and I was usually horsing those fish over the rocks), but also more effective in casting once I adapted my technique, and haven't fished mono for more than a decade. Retired from surf casting now, back & feet can't take it anymore, but these were my experiences.
Technique is the only thing that really made a difference.
CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL
Some notes and my final summery. I tried to be unbiased and base this entirely on the information in the thread but it's not really possible, I also needed to use my own experience and opinion.
PROBLEM
Braid is at best difficult to cast consistently well on a conventional reel.
I think most agree on this.
A bad cast is serious, as the braid has no stretch or shock absorbing properties resulting in a hard and very sudden stop of the airborne casting weight.
WHAT CAUSES IT?
The primary cause we've identified is that the braid jams itself between previous strands on the reel which causes it to wind itself in the wrong direction on the reel during a cast and stopping the reel by creating a loop around the casting line.
SOME TESTS, OBSERVATIONS AND DEDUCTIONS
1. This was not done in a structured or scientific manner!
2. I used a magnifying glass to examine how the braid was jammed.
3. I repeated the exercise 8 times with 4 different braids, Suffix 832 40 lb; Suffix 832 50 lb; Suffix 832 80lb and Powerpro 80 lb using two different reels, an ABU GARCIA 6600C4 & a Shimano Tranx HG.
4. Each time I wound about 40 mt of braid on the reel firmly and evenly by holding the line between my thumb and index finger. I then put the reel in freespool and lightly turned the spool in a forward direction.
5. Totally randomly the line was lightly jamming on the spool between two other lines underneath. On average this happened every 2 - 3 turns of the spool. There seems no apparent reason, the braid just "finds" somewhere to crawl in and snug down.
6. Varying the tension during line retrieve did not produce more or tighter jams.
7. This jamming is mostly not tight, but strong enough to pull the limp braid in the opposite direction to which the spool is spinning. But once again there was no pattern or measure in how tight the jamming effect was, it varied a lot.
8. Every now and again there was one bit of jammed braid that was stuck 3 times tighter then the average.
9. Although there seemed to be only a small difference in the results between the various braids, the 40lb Suffix which was the smoothest of the lot also jammed more then the others. This braid was on the ABBU and perhaps it relates to the reel or was just coincidental. There was no discernable difference between the two reels.
10. If you pull the line hard it will bury itself deep and tight within the previous coils, I think we're all aware of this, but this is not specifically what I was investigating.
11. This tests clearly identified that the line seemed to have a natural tendency to jam between other line on the reel and is not caused by anything else, like the loose strands or wooliness of the older line or even to tight or too loose spooling.
WHY DOES IT JAM LIKE THAT?
1. This is the more difficult question to answer.
2. The braid is fairly soft and flexible and seems to flatten and possibly expand a bit afterwards. It changes its shape to be able to wedge itself in between small openings.
3. Powerpro 80 lb is stated to be 0.43mm thick, I measured 0.41mm using well used braid and my Vernier Callipers which would not be very accurate.
4. I could easily squeeze the braid flat in the callipers (lenthways) to 0.3mm and it seemed to remain like that.
5. By squeezing it between the sharp point of the callipers, across the braid, I could squeeze it to .19mm, less then half its natural diameter.
6. Conclusion is that the braid easily adjusts its shape to fit in between narrow openings left by previous strands of line on the reel. It probably assumes the shape required to fit snugly between other threads.
7. If you look carefully at the photo of my reel attached, you will see many gaps between two strands, (wound on using levelwinder) where the next bit of line could easily get jammed in between.
8. It seems conceivable to me that the next layer of braid may then force it deeper in to its "hole"
9. Even though the jamming is mostly light, the limpness of the braid offers no resistance that could dislodge the jam, as light as it may be.
10. With a magnifier you can also easily see that the line comes off the reel in odd shapes, not nice and even and straight, probably as a result of being squeezed in to small gaps.
11. Mono is round and hard and can't do that.
12. This is also the reason why new braid that has some coating, is a bit less susceptible to jam.
HOW DO WE AVOID THIS PROBLEM?
1. There are many suggestions how to avoid the braid from jamming, they may all help but is depends largely on your type of fishing. I stand and make 100 cast per hour and am unable to retrieve the line on to my spool in a very evenly tight manner without disrupting what I do.
2. Do not allow the braid to become slack at any stage during your cast and a blow up is unlikely to happen.
3. If the line is fairly tight during the cast, it then it is not possible for the momentum of the spool to turn the line around and make a loop or knot. It will in fact pull the jammed line away and loose from its snug jammed position.
4. The equipment used needs to be well balanced and matched to each other.
5. In my book a good adjustable cast control system to enable a competent caster to make subtle changes to compensate for environmental changes, wind, waves, casting distance etc. is essential and should avoid 99.5% of problems
6. Perhaps using newer braid, thicker diameter braid, stiffer braid may all be helpful.
7. Nothing beats casting experience, for the past week I have been watching the line peel off my reel in an attempt to actually see what happens. If you make a "jerky" cast, as opposed to a smooth loading of the rod and release, the spool tends to run unevenly and too fast for ½ a second after the release. That could happen if the rod is too strong for the caster or you attempt to cast too far!
8. Contrary to what someone commented, avoid the use of a long mono topshot. If you cast the mono in the normal manner, your reel reaches the braid when the casting weight is already slowing down and you will probably have some loose coils of mono on your reel which then changes to braid. I know this from experience.
9. Winding the line on to the reel in a criss cross manner did seem to reduce the jamming and perhaps needs further investigation, but also reduces the reels line capacity.
CONCLUSION
I have managed this problem pretty well by ensuring the braid always maintains a level of tension during the cast. Like all casting matters, it is mainly experience that matters most.
With everything I have written here and above we have to bear in mind that what applies to me does not necessarily apply to you. We fish very differently to those of you in the US and other places. This leads to misunderstandings.
I think the major problem inherently lies with the braid, the limpness, thin diameter, and flexibility and loose weave of the stuff. When I watched it carefully as I peeled it slowly from the reel, I was actually amazed to see how it sticks or jams to the reel and then turns in the opposite direction on its way to causing a major problem for a caster.
The solution is probably in the hands of the braid manufacturers, make braid for spinners and different braid for conventionals! For the latter add some stiffer fibres, tighten the weave to make the braid firmer, rounder with more body the diameter is not that critical. Stop marketing it as very limp! Maybe someone will say, not possible?
Ironically there is little new information here that was not in my opening post, but to me it is all becomes somewhat clearer by writing it down.
HERE IS A LIST OF KEY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS BY THE CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS THREAD
"Braid needs to be spooled really tightly"
"I have found the best solution is to match your braid's diameter to what mono your reel was designed for"
"It is not a problem as long as the tension is uniform"
"getting the braid wet before casting is recommended"
"PE line just tends to have more uneven surface & catch on itself more braid isn't smooth like mono"
"surface water on the line may act as a lubricant OR weak adhesive"
"give braid the same number of decades you gave mono & it will be equally trouble-free"
"I feel is the most common problem is that the braid under pressure pinches it's self"
"Most braided lines that are coated is for one reason and one reason only, they don't want to show the "fuzz" and broken filaments"
"mono wants to come off the spool" because of the stiffness & stretch"
"criss cross the line much more effectively on this reel"
"most problematic situation comes from working a lure that causes a loss of tension, like working a popper"
"larger diameter braid"
"water on the spool"
"Technique is the only thing that really made a difference"
That's very well done Cor. Thank you. It should be stickied or something. I wouldn't argue with anything you said, but think you should mention why a person would want to cast with braid in the first place. Like, because braid casts further, the smaller diameter fishes better with a better presentation, and the smaller diameter means a smaller and lighter reel can get the job done.
-steve
What Steve said Cor - good job summing up the collective thoughts on the issue. Thanks, you've put a lot of thought into this.
Mike
And I am reminded yet again how fortunate I am to have found the AT forum!
Experiential and pragmatic commentary presented succinctly. I will be so much more mindful about my conventional casting with braid after absorbing this. Fantastic summary and overall contribution - thank you Cor.
This thread had me thinking, so I looked up a couple things and found that virtually all distance casting competitors use 8-10lb mono on their conventional reels, must be for the same reasons we've talked about braid's issues in this thread. We may be pushing the envelope trying to get the same casting performance out of braid.
I also found them saying "Backlashes are part of every competition." ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/1vt67lK.jpg)
American Casting Association distance casting rules say the minimum line diameter is ten-thousandths inch (0.010"). They do not specify a line strength or material.
0.010" is equivalent to 8# mono or 30# braid. 8# braid is smaller at 0.005".
So for practical fishing, the question becomes whether 8# braid that is 0.005" will cast further than 8# mono that is 0.010".
I say yes. If thinner diameter line was not better for distance casting then there would be no need for a maximum line diameter in tournaments.
The line in the photo above looks like 30# Hi-Vis Yellow Slick Power Pro. It's good line and has both a slick surface and some backbone (not so limp) when it's new.
-steve
Thanks Cor for an excellent summary, I am convinced even more now, no more braid topshot on on conventionals used for casting :) :)
Quote from: oc1 on January 15, 2020, 06:12:06 AM
American Casting Association distance casting rules say the minimum line diameter is ten-thousandths inch (0.010"). They do not specify a line strength or material.
0.010" is equivalent to 8# mono or 30# braid. 8# braid is smaller at 0.005".
So for practical fishing, the question becomes whether 8# braid that is 0.005" will cast further than 8# mono that is 0.010".
I say yes. If thinner diameter line was not better for distance casting then there would be no need for a maximum line diameter in tournaments.
The line in the photo above looks like 30# Hi-Vis Yellow Slick Power Pro. It's good line and has both a slick surface and some backbone (not so limp) when it's new.
-steve
I think International casting competitions allow mono only due to the difficulty of accurately measuring the diameter of braid. You can't really use a caliper or micrometer as you will flatten it. Line diameter makes a massive difference in casting distance, hence the strict rules on diameter. I think you will have to be a super skilled caster to whip out ultra thin braid with a 4.5m rod and a 150g sinker to the distances needed to compete in long distance casting competitions which is way over 200m to be competitive. The problems we have discussed here will be exaggerated even more with the force put into those casts. Your question regarding whether the 8lb braid will cast further than the 8lb mono, only if you have the confidence to put the same effort into both. If you are going to be nervous about the super thin braid line then I doubt it will make much of a difference. Use a modern spinning reel and rod though and the one filled with braid becomes a total different ball game.
I just wish to make one point; with this thread I only wanted to determine why it is that braid can be so awkward to cast on a conventional reel and I think we succeeded fairly well, it certainly is much clearer to me!
As I pointed out somewhere above we need to always consider the different forms of fishing we do which does have a significant effect on this.
This also applies to dry casting, for sure.
For the type of fishing I do, mono is the easier casting line and probably also gets the further distance on conventional reels. A person who uses a baitcaster, lobs a 1 oz lure with a one handed cast, may find the total opposite. A Spinning reel with a good setup, loaded with braid outcasts mono and give less trouble. That tackle nearly always casts 10 + mt further then I do.
Perhaps the next question someone may wish to ask me is:- why do I persist using braid if it is so problematic?
I love the strength and durability!
I have mastered casting with it fairly well, I made about 400 casts today and same yesterday with not one problem, to put it in to
perspective.
During 2008 braid became readily available here and I did some tests to see how it works for me, .....It didn't!
In 2013 I repeated the tests as someone tried to convince me braid had improve a lot, it still did not work better than Mono.
I have a copy of the results, I have posted it somewhere before and as soon as I find it i'll attach it
ATTACHED BELOW
Quote from: Jeri on January 09, 2020, 07:00:21 AM
For distance casting, you are surely going to continue to have problems using a conventional over a spinning reel - why not just accept that it is generally unsuitable, and change reels. The rock and surf fraternity have embraced 'grinder and braid' over the last few years in southern Africa, and it has done wonders for the sport. Sure there is a need for a specifically designed rod, but the same applies in reverse.
The technology and strength of spinning reels has come on in leaps and bounds, and now they can be used in virtually every situation. In the UK surf scene, there used to be a huge 'snobbery' aspect about folks not mastering conventional reels, but that has since dissolved with the much better spinning reels and use of braid - distances are now pretty much equal or better with braid.
agree. I was fishing with my brother in Australia, he used to be a proponent of centrepin reels for distance casting ;-) using the old KP ball-bearing centrepins, could significantly outcast me casting an Abu 7000 conventional. Now he uses spinning reels with the quality braids like Daiwa Tournament, or Gliss which isn't quite a braid but similar thinness. We spent some time casting these, the longest casts I've ever made..
I fish an old Lews Speedspool for bass here in CO, tried the lighter braids but found them unusable. I've settled on Spiderwire Ultracast Mono, not a big fan of their braids but this mono is very good - thin, minimal memory, good abrasion resistance.
On a Heddon Mark IV 3200 conventional reel from the 50s, on a Heddon cane rod, I've dropped all the way back to braided dacron line. Gudebrod Meatmaster to be specific.
I found this reel very difficult even with mono. Any backlash would instantly dive behind the spool and cut the line. The braided dacron is limp and doesn't backlash hardly at all, if it does it stays on the spool and can be disentangled. It's not great for distance but it's perfectly fishable, kinda fun to cast even..
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48217924841_cc154bb2ac_b.jpg)
Very good read and good tips. My main takeaway is Cor's statements about braid changing shape and morphing into a shape that allows it to dive under the layers on the spool. Mono does not change its shape the way braid does. Bill
Quote from: DougK on January 15, 2020, 05:36:47 PM
On a Heddon Mark IV 3200 conventional reel from the 50s, on a Heddon cane rod, I've dropped all the way back to braided dacron line. Gudebrod Meatmaster to be specific.
I found this reel very difficult even with mono. Any backlash would instantly dive behind the spool and cut the line. The braided dacron is limp and doesn't backlash hardly at all, if it does it stays on the spool and can be disentangled. It's not great for distance but it's perfectly fishable, kinda fun to cast even..
Really nice Heddon rig. I agree, braided Dacron is a real pleasure to fish with. Sometimes it worth putting up with the diameter and fraying just because it has such a good feel.
-steve
I actually use 40mt 80lb braid as topshot, a short 80lb mono leader, and 50lb braid mainline.
I experimented with braid for a number of years and used to load 100mt 0.52mm mono (topshot) on top of 0.3 mm braid. What happened was that I would cast out the mono, and then the reel would be on its last few turns when it got to the braid, and bang! The reason for that was largely the fact that you use a different casting style with mono with loose coils on the spool, great for mono but deadly for braid.
Hi Corn, Can you tell me how you join braid to braid. I have tried various knots and they are either to bulky to slid smoothly through the runners or they aren't strong enough.
@ Dave Bently .....sorry I only saw your question now. I sew it together, you need good eyes, braid that is not much thinner than 0.32 mm (50lb) a thinish needle with an eye big enough to take the braid and some patience. I usually use Suffix 832, it is also "hollow" though not advertised as such ....about 20 stitches on both side and finish by trying to fit it inside the other strand for 2 cm and cutting the ends flush.
MONO VIZ BRAID FOR CASTING
I have many a time made the statement that mono is a superior casting line on conventional reels (not spinners). I have done many experiments and tests to convince myself that that is indeed so using different conventional reels. For some time I have been planning to change one of my Tranx 500 reels back to mono and last week end spooled 80 mt of 0.5mm mono topshot to my one reel and yesterday went to fish with it. Even I was astounded at the difference. It feels beautifully smooth during the cast as it runs out the guides with not a hint of a backlash and it increased my distance by about 15 mt + using a 11 ft rod and just short of 2.5 oz casting plug.
As always there is a trade off, the mono is not nearly as strong as the 80lb braid topshot I have been using and wont be as durable.
Quote from: Cor on November 13, 2020, 10:19:30 AMit increased my distance
Hmmm....interesting results.
Many years ago I tested braid vs mono extensively for casting and found the opposite. Maybe it's due to your feeling more confident with it and that transfers to your casting, as mono feels better, has stretch, comes off the spool smoother, and is more forgiving.
Braid, on the other hand, has no give, requires a bit more discipline in casting technique, and can feel like you're casting with a razor blade :o.
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
I recently found that eight-strand braid will cast farther than four-strand braid. That surprised me.... a lot. I even had to add more static magnets to keep the reel from backlashing with the eight-strand. I had been using Power Pro for a couple of decades and then tried Suffix 832, J Braid X8 and Tuf-Line. The jury is still out but I think I like Tuf-Line best. Kalex, Hercules and JB Line One Solid Core cast about the same as Power Pro.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on November 13, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
I recently found that eight-strand braid will cast farther than four-strand braid. That surprised me.... a lot. I even had to add more static magnets to keep the reel from backlashing with the eight-strand. I had been using Power Pro for a couple of decades and then tried Suffix 832, J Braid X8 and Tuf-Line. The jury is still out but I think I like Tuf-Line best. Kalex, Hercules and JB Line One Solid Core cast about the same as Power Pro.
-steve
That's absolutely correct because the 8 ply is smoother over the guides. I learned early about 4 ply after making my thumbprint disappear from surfcasting with it.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: Cor on November 13, 2020, 10:19:30 AMit increased my distance
Hmmm....interesting results.
Many years ago I tested braid vs mono extensively for casting and found the opposite. Maybe it's due to your feeling more confident with it and that transfers to your casting, as mono feels better, has stretch, comes off the spool smoother, and is more forgiving.
Braid, on the other hand, has no give, requires a bit more discipline in casting technique, and can feel like you're casting with a razor blade :o.
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
I would love to go and cast with you and see why we have a different opinion, not because I don't believe what you are saying, but because I have tested this often before and just again proved it absolutely conclusively, to myself! We are obviously doing something very different or using very different equipment. What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?
# Firstly you are absolutely right that confidence makes a big difference, a blow up with braid is terrible and believe me it happens. I have broken my 80 lb braid on a bad cast! That caution is absolutely removed with mono.
# I can reduce my cast control setting very substantially with mono and cast without touching the spool.
# I use heavy braid and probably replace the topshot once per many thousands of casts which leaves it rather "furry" and I can feel the wind resistance on the line and probably through the guides as well.
# New firmer braid casts better then the well used limp stuff.
Oh well I don't know why this difference is.
Is much cheaper for you to come and visit me with your tackle and I'll show you some fishing around here, when allowed that is?
PS You've given me the answer why my phone's fingerprint scanner fails to recognise my fingerprint after 2 weeks ???
One side thought on the discussion: when you have that rod loaded up and slinging braid - you got what you got, and that energy is coming from your cast, the bend/load in your rod, etc.
So if you are really being serious about slinging, and using mono, is it not possible that the stretch of the mono (at least the first several yards, depending on your rod and the length of line you use to cast) is also being used to store/release energy into the cast? And yes, I realize this is more geek theoretical than fishing practical, but when guys with the level of talent on this thread talk about the differences they are seeing between throwing mono and braid, beyond the pure "it went longer" I wonder if the energy storage/transference in mono makes "it cast smoother"????
Quote from: Brewcrafter on November 14, 2020, 07:15:50 AM
One side thought on the discussion: when you have that rod loaded up and slinging braid - you got what you got, and that energy is coming from your cast, the bend/load in your rod, etc.
So if you are really being serious about slinging, and using mono, is it not possible that the stretch of the mono (at least the first several yards, depending on your rod and the length of line you use to cast) is also being used to store/release energy into the cast? And yes, I realize this is more geek theoretical than fishing practical, but when guys with the level of talent on this thread talk about the differences they are seeing between throwing mono and braid, beyond the pure "it went longer" I wonder if the energy storage/transference in mono makes "it cast smoother"????
Interesting question. I think that 10 feet or so of mono is not going to store and quickly release much energy compared to the rod. The effect should be negligible. When you snap off a lure from an early bird's nest, and the lure travels an insane distance, this illustrates both how much energy that the rod is storing and releasing, and the effect of friction from unwinding line from the spool and dragging it through the air. Friction is the controlling factor in the relative distance casting mono and braid. Plus the secondary effect of backlash anxiety when casting braid :)
If you tie a hookless lure to a 10 foot section of mono tied to a tree, load the appropriate amount (mebbe 8 lbs load for 30 lb mono) and release (in a safe direction), you will see how much the mono contributes to the cast.
Regarding folks individual experiences casting braid vs mono:
If you are casting far, and then winding against a light pull (working a lure) and then a strong pull(big fish with locked down drag) all from the same cast, braid will dig in much worse than mono, and the next cast or two can be a problem.
I don't like casting irons longer distances with braid when I have to lock down the drag pretty high. Also with mono, I am not worrying about braid backlash when I get overexcited by a big boil at the limit of my casting range. More fun :)
When somebody says that they can fish with braid just fine for the way that they fish, I don't doubt them. But not all situations are the same, which has a substantial effect on the amount of friction in play. I think Cor's points are accurate.
-J
I estimated mono stretches 10 to 15%, I say that because I regularly attach my line to a point in my street, run of 60 mt and test it for strength. I now see this article https://www.berkley-fishing.com/pages/berkley-ae-why-use-monofilament#:~:text=Stretch%E2%80%94Mono%20stretches%20more%20than,to%2025%20percent%20or%20more. stating 25 %....that is a lot!
I agree that the elasticity in the short section of mono that comes into play with your cast won't affect your casting distance. Maybe I must try your tree and line experiment, but I think it will release the stored energy slowly.
What we can leave for another day is to what extent the difference between mono and braid effects fishing in general (excluding casting) ;D ;D
I think that stretch influences every aspect of this whole fishing thing. Stretchiness (elasticity) is a property of nylon; both monofilament nylon and braided nylon. The high density polyethylene (UHMWPE) in Spectra braid has much less elasticity. Dacron (polypropylene) and all the natural fiber lines (linen, cotton, silk) also have very little stretch.
To fish effectively you need to be able to feel what is going on at the other end of the line. How the bait is moving as it is trolled. How the lure is moving as it's retrieved. The structure of the bottom (mud, sand, rocks, coral, tree branches, seaweed). Feeling the fish bite or shake its head. Anything related to sensitivity.
There are good things about stretch as well. It helps prevent yanking the hook out of a tender mouth. It helps prevent snapping off the terminal tackle or lure on a bad cast. It provides a shock absorber that may prevent a break-off or pulled hook when a fish thrashes around. The selection of the rod is influenced by the type of line. A rod will behave differently using mono versus Spectra because the rod also functions as a shock absorber.
Then there is diameter difference that will affect the selection of a reel.
Spot on oc1!
I once saw a video of Japanese fishing from shore with some thin strong elastic section in the line that had the fish fighting the elastic which acted as a shock absorber.
For 40 years I fished with mono, all sorts some very hard and stiff and the last 20 years more modern thinner and stronger but also more supple line. I now use a product from Suffix, XL strong in 0.5 mm to 0.62mm (Between 45 and 60 lb) its fairly thin for its strength, strong and casts well.
5 years back I switched to braid on 3 of my Tranx reels and have been very happy with the result despite my previous statements that braid does not work well on conventional reels. The level winding reels, modified with a good static magnetic cast control make it quite doable. Bear in mind that I spin fish, which usually has me standing casting at a rate of 100 casts per hour.
I think making a deliberate & careful cast with braid is not a big issue, but doing it continuously with all types of changes in water and wind conditions sometimes makes it difficult.
I liked the very strong and durable braid, no more breakages, but quite quickly started to realised that there was a downside to it as well, other than that its casting ability does not match up to mono.
The first thing I noticed was that I was losing more fish after hookup. I now believe that to be correct. The more direct head shake of the fish and also the lack of stretch enables the fish to get slack in the line at inopportune times and shake the hooks.
I also tag a lot of fish and to avoid unnecessary damage to the fish, I nearly always flatten the barbs on my hooks, making it easier for the fish to release itself.
I never believed this to be true while fishing with mono?
Another observation is that guys that use spinning reels, do not seem to experience the same problem, or not to the same extent. Why not?
My guess is that the spinning rods are generally softer in the tip, thereby compensating the lack of stretch of mono. The "older guys" tend to use much stronger tackle and pull much harder on the fish and I still fish that way with braid.
I sometimes pull a fish on to the surface, which is not intended, but a consequence of a strong rod, no stretch braid, tight drag and perhaps a smaller fish.
A rod with a softer tip has an effect on the movement or action of a lure in the water. As the lure gets to the top of a wave it pulls harder before skipping off the wave and losing traction. A softer rod reduces that skipping of the lure, (sometimes it's actually desirable) so I wonder if the same happens when you use the more elastic mono......perhaps.
It does feel very different using mono again. ???
Quote from: Cor on November 14, 2020, 05:55:57 AM
What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?
- Avet SXJ MC
- 3oz
- 40lb braid
- 10ft Daiwa Emcast rod (a somewhat stiff MH)
- These days about 50-60 yds, in my prime it was about 80yds, but I'm old now, bad discs.
*I never found a difference with old vs new braid though. Either way it's still harder than mono to cast.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 15, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Cor on November 14, 2020, 05:55:57 AM
What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?
- Avet SXJ MC
- 3oz
- 40lb braid
- 10ft Daiwa Emcast rod (a somewhat stiff MH)
- These days about 50-60 yds, in my prime it was about 80yds, but I'm old now, bad discs.
*I never found a difference with old vs new braid though. Either way it's still harder than mono to cast.
Not too different tackle or age ;D
I dunno?